please revert heals being group only in pvp (WE DID IT! its being rolled back!)

Reaper_00

robertthebard wrote: »

Then make, or join a group. Reading here, it's a 12 person activity, 12 people == group activity. If I want to participate in group activities, I'm going to join a group, not sit on the sidelines complaining that I can't solo it, or that they took steps to encourage group play in a group play environment. The irony here being, of course, how the topic is usually the other way around, ie, "if you want to take part in group activities, you should have a group to do so".

Except it's not a group activity. It's only a group activity if you are a healer. No one else has to group if they don't want to.

Using your solo dungeon analogy from earlier it would be like if all classes were allowed to attempt to solo a dungeon apart from one class. Not because that one class wasn't capable of soloing the dungeon, but just because ZOS decided that that one class shouldn't be allowed to solo it.

DMuehlhausen

Wait so you can heal anybody around you again in PvP? Sweet I might actually go back out to Cyrodil again. It was so pointless as a healer otherwise.

Ryath_Waylander

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Wait so you can heal anybody around you again in PvP? Sweet I might actually go back out to Cyrodil again. It was so pointless as a healer otherwise.

Er no, you still can't heal anyone you're not grouped with.

eso_lags

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Raevyness wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Best change ever. You guys dont actually want to solo, no what you want is to chase down solo players with randoms while still being able to heal them. No. But you still will chase actual solo players down with a random group and thank god you wont be able to heal them. You already have the advantage, you dont need more.

Again, one of the best changes they ever made. right along side the group size. Plus its good for performance. Its a step in the right direction for once.

If you really want to randomly heal people find a heal that can still heal others. I dont play a healer, and never will, but ive seen people healing randoms with cauterize. Not sure what else does it.

You said it yourself.. You dont play as a healer and never well. So i'll just go right ahead and disregard your opinion on the matter.

I've played a healer on EVERY MMO for over 15 years of playing MMOs. This is one of the WORST decisions.
What does it actually accomplish??
As a healer heading into PVP and realizing, once again on AD NA, that we were highly outnumbered, with no large organized groups going up against EP and DC, defending forts with about 20 people maybe a few grouped (i suspect mostly not), I log in and see theres 20+ players about to be rolled by incoming EP, attempt to heal them in a bid to help defend the fort and guess what? We were rolled in 2 seconds and I couldn't even help. Prior to these changes MAYBE my heals could have helped slow down the attack, allow us to push them back out the gate & seal the breach and be a defend. But 20 pugs going against like 40 EP. We had 0 chance, especially now I cant even heal we've -80% chance. In fact we mose well have logged off and just handed them the keys to that fort.

It made no difference. These changes are KILLING the class. And I'll be the first to say it. I'm dropping playing a healer and playing something else. Period. Is this a MMO?? BEcause its not very massive if 1/3 of the play style cant actually play in PVP (meaning DPS, Tank, healer).

If you've played NA, AD before you'd realize numbers are already LOW the majority of the time (outside of peak), as an Australian player, I play MOSTLY out of peak, meaning PVP was already a soggy experience at that for me, but this... this really kills it.. This isn't PVP. We don't even stand a chance anymore without the big shot PVP guilds..

Oh well, make a group. Encourage people to make a group. Eventually they will learn. And i cant relate you what you are saying about your faction because i play DC on xbox. When i started I played EP but there were way too many people on EP back then, and still are. too many zergs. In the campaign i played DC was gated almost all the time. So i made my new main on DC because there would be more EP to kill. Go take a resource solo or with a small group, or even a keep, and wipe people. Thats what I enjoy.

Healing is broken in this game. If you have played mmos for 15 years then name some other mmos with healing like this game. Its broken. I mean ffs, i fight max cp players that dont even know how to heal. Its an absolute embarrassment. And do you know the worst part? Its when i fight a group of 5 random players getting carried by a magplar and i cant kill any of them, nor can they kill me. Why? Because they arent using any strategy or combos to kill me, and they are getting carried by some unkillable healer tank that just happend to be there.

Of course things like that are better this update, but now everyones a tank. Or worse, a filthy werewolf, or even worse still, a filthy werewolf in crimson. Quite possibly one of the most broken builds ive ever seen in this game. I dont envy the people balancing this game.

OK, can't 1v5 people so you want the devs to change the rules so their skills won't function. If your expectations are to kill 5 people and you can't, maybe you're the one who should make a group.

Arent you a class rep for templar? Or used to be? Hmmmm 🙄🙄

Anyway, thats not what i said. Like at all, i swear Ill never understand why people dont read on the forums. I can kill plenty of people 1v5, and there are plenty of people i cant kill 1v5. It doesnt matter. I was giving a random example of how 4 extremely inexperienced players can get carried by an inexperienced magplar because healing is broken. And because of the fact that these groups, or not groups i guess, are sometimes uncoordinated, because they arent grouped, they cant kill me and I cant kill them. Now at least they have to actually be grouped if they want to be carried by a healer. And that will give them a better chance of killing people.

Yes, I was a rep because people communicated to ZOS that I can be trusted when it comes to the concerns of everybody who plays the game, not just a small clique who plays the game the way that I do..

If the magplar is inexperienced, then any 1vXer worth their salt will eliminate them first because A) they're inexperienced B] easier to kill C) they're helping the other 4 the most. Templar is my most killed class in PvP. If you're struggling to kill an inexperienced magplar, the issue here is not Cyrodiil's mechanics, rather your ambitions and expectations of 1v5ing people are out of whack with your capabilities.

If the problem is "because they arent grouped, they cant kill me and I cant kill them," that's going to happen indefinitely because Cyrodiil isn't a battleground or arena where everyone is in 12 person groups and these 12 person groups are in separate instances. The environment is always going to have overlapping groups, ungrouped players, and organized guild groups that will create these random clusters where everybody is playing by different rules. Bob and Emily can heal each other, but Armando and Kate who are in-between them can't get healed by either. This is confusing, inconsistent, and antithetical to competition as some people are playing with an advantageous ruleset. When I run with my guild, I feel sorry for all the random ungrouped players that get farmed mercilessly. It is ridiculous that we can run around a keep vs dozens and dozens of players for upwards of 20-30 minutes. Ever since these changes, we can do this for longer and against more players not just because they can;t heal each other, but also because everyone is building tankier (and thus less damage) for the same reason: because they can't heal each other, which just makes this meta even more miserable than it is.

Your statement that grouping "will give them a better chance of killing people" is disingenuous. All that would do is return to the status quo ante bellum, i.e., the way before these changes. It's not better. Not to mention it is unreasonable to expect and demand that in order for players not to suffer from an artificial debuff before engaging 3 tower humpers, people have to all gather at a designated spot by the resource and go through the process of grouping each other (we won't even get into sorting out roles, coordinating sets/skills, having someone step up and host a discord) while the three ulti bomb them. It's often not practical because of the open world nature of Cyrodiil and thus hardly a justification why players deserve to play under a disadvantageous ruleset.

If the magplar is inexperienced, then any 1vXer worth their salt will eliminate them first because A) they're inexperienced B] easier to kill C) they're helping the other 4 the most. Templar is my most killed class in PvP. If you're struggling to kill an inexperienced magplar, the issue here is not Cyrodiil's mechanics, rather your ambitions and expectations of 1v5ing people are out of whack with your capabilities.

Let me clarify, I probably should have said bad instead of inexperienced but i try not to be rude on the forums. I dont mean a cp 400 player whos been playing for 2 months, thats inexperienced.. I mean players who should know enough but just zerg all the time or play lazy. Also im not sure why you think its my capabilities that should be questioned when it should be no issue for 5 people to kill one person. Like at all. And if there is 5 max players failing at killing one player then theres a problem.

It will always depend on the situation and who it is. Of course the healer is always the first target, unless theres a sniper in the back i can quickly run over to and 2 shot. But there are also plenty of healers that have a ridiculous amount of health, are extremely tanky, use a healing proc set, and are extremely hard to run out of resources. And sometimes the players that are being healed by that player are pretty bad. Like players that know how to spam attacks but not heal, or cc break, normally players that would die in 2 seconds, but with a magplar they get carried. And sometimes those players drop just as fast because their build is ***, it just depends on the situation.


If the problem is "because they arent grouped, they cant kill me and I cant kill them," that's going to happen indefinitely because Cyrodiil isn't a battleground or arena where everyone is in 12 person groups and these 12 person groups are in separate instances. The environment is always going to have overlapping groups, ungrouped players, and organized guild groups that will create these random clusters where everybody is playing by different rules. Bob and Emily can heal each other, but Armando and Kate who are in-between them can't get healed by either. This is confusing, inconsistent, and antithetical to competition as some people are playing with an advantageous ruleset.

Ya it is a game, it is competition. Many times being in a group isnt enough, just because 5 bad players are grouped doesnt mean they win, but they stand a better chance if they communicate and work together. I think you misunderstood my point about grouping up, the point is, they are working together and not just running around uncoordinated.

And Maybe if armondo and kate want to get healed they should take a pro tip from bob and emily and get in a group, or throw on a self heal. Works great for me. Im so confused how you dont understand people are choosing to play without a group, just like I do a lot of the time. Im also so confused why you make it seem like finding, or creating, a group in cyrodil is such a massive ordeal? its not.


When I run with my guild, I feel sorry for all the random ungrouped players that get farmed mercilessly. It is ridiculous that we can run around a keep vs dozens and dozens of players for upwards of 20-30 minutes

This is confusing, inconsistent, and antithetical to competition as some people are playing with an advantageous ruleset

Not to mention it is unreasonable to expect and demand that in order for players not to suffer from an artificial debuff before engaging 3 tower humpers, people have to all gather at a designated spot by the resource and go through the process of grouping each other (we won't even get into sorting out roles, coordinating sets/skills, having someone step up and host a discord)

You and I are never going to agree. This is nonsense, and I can feel you disdain for solo players, and i love it. You are just upset about a change, and I honestly sympathize with you, but i disagree. Before this change if you came across 3 people in a tower and you are one of those players that felt like you HAVE to go up there and kill them, you'd still probably die. Depending on the size of the zerg you go up with. Would your chances be better, as a random zerg on their way to the next keep? Of course. But that doesnt make this change wrong.

This is what adapting is. When you know this change has happened your moves should have been to have a build that can heal yourself a bit, and try to group up with people if you want to have these type of large scale fights. I go to these fights and run around alone killing people as I go.

You act like ball groups didnt mercilessly farm people before this change happened. And you over complicate the *** out of what needs to happen when you're grouping up. Its strange. You even validate my argument, about grouping up, with everything you say. We agree its advantageous to group up. We agree you stand a better chance grouped. We agree that if you're running around in a random zerg, not grouped, you're at a bit of a disadvantage vs a zerg that has groups. So why doesnt it fall on the players to group up?

People love to *** on solo players and say oh its a numbers game, its survival of the fittest, you put yourself at a disadvantage going solo, its war dont get mad when 30 people to chase you all around the map, oh its a strategic gameplay and numbers give you the advantage. People also love to say "adapt" when zos makes changes, but now that they changed this people dont want to adapt.

Im not implying you've said these things, maybe you have or havent i really dont know, but the point is that some of these things are valid arguments that people love to make about solo players, or people who complain about a certain change. So arent people choosing to not group putting themselves at an unnecessary disadvantage?

@eso_lags, perhaps I can provide a different take on this. Many others in this thread such as Joy and Varanis have made many posts about why they view this as a negative change, mainly coming at it from the point of view that it is an unfair on unbalanced change that artificially nerfs their preferred playstyle. And that argument is always going to be a bit subjective as there will also be players who benefit from the change and hence like it for that reason.

My feelings on this come from a slightly different place. Objectively, I probably benefit from this change. I tended to run around in cyro on my own, generally in lower population times (xbox, oceanic time), so small scale fights is generally all that's going on. Either because I'm in enemy territory resource/outpost/town capping or maybe I'm on my own defending a keep from a small group that have attacked it. These are common scenarios for me.
Its not like I'm that good a player, I'm no 1vXer, and its not like I would ever normally win in an outnumbered scenario unless the opposing players were either inexperienced, under leveled CP, or under/poorly geared/built, or if I could exploit some tactical advantage due to the location or npcs. But now if I run into a couple of enemy players its likely they aren't getting the benefit of each others heals/buffs, giving me an advantage I did not previously have. So really this change should help me.

But, in my time in Cyro I found there was something else I liked doing, which was to be able to on a whim jump in and help another alliance mate. I'm not talking zerg surfing here or helping some group chase down one player. Rather maybe its another solo player who is fighting outnumbered against a few enemies, perhaps on a resource or defending an outpost, basically temporarily acting like a duo, or a trio. Or maybe it was a small group fighting another small enemy group. I could go in a help as best I could. And then, win or lose, I would be on my way again, heading off to the next place and maybe the next small encounter.

And that was the key. I find I love helping and being around a few other players (not large groups as blob fights tend to devolve fairly quickly into AoE fests which I don't enjoy), but I always wanted to have my own agency and make my own choices about where to go and which fights to join without having to worry about anyone else. Prior to this change, such a playstyle was possible, now it is somewhat dead in the water.

Sure, like you suggest, I can adapt back to a more selfish build like I started out. And be better off in that scenario if I just want to play solo. But I don't enjoy it as much. And given that its not necessarily about being the most effective or successful for me, I'm here to have fun, this leads to me being a lot less enthusiastic about jumping in to Cyrodiil.

I get that the change is beneficial for some and that you like it for that reason. That's fair. And I get that its bad for others who feel like they have been nerfed. We have seen their arguments as well. But in my case, it just makes me not really want to get on and play.

I guess that's my tl;dr point:
The healing change means that the playstyle I have most fun doing is no longer possible.
I can adapt my build to play within the new conditions (and benefit from the change in this case), but I don't find it as fun, so now I play a lot less.

Thats a fair point. I just feel like people are over reacting, like people always do with big changes. I am never going to agree with everything in this thread because i believe that healers carry people in this game, like badly. I also think its why a lot of players never improve, because they run around in massive groups where they dont have to CC break because theyre always getting healed. But on the other hand i know people like you exist that just like to run around and heal people at random, I met someone like that the other night. I dont want people to have their play styles ruined but sometimes thats what happens in mmos. But maybe zos could find a way to meet in the middle.

Im not a healer, and while i know how most abilities work in game im not really sure what healing abilities do/dont heal others anymore. Im guessing most of them dont heal others. But while I was fighting the other day in a tower my friend, on his red, came over and was watching me fight a few people. When I started to kill the last guy he started casting cauterize, which is a DK healing ability, and healing this dude to troll me. And since this dude was tanky it was pretty hard to kill him. And then he finally stopped and I killed the guy.

The point of that is im sure theres a middle ground that can be found. Im sure its something that can be improved on. Like something where everyone could find an single target heal ability, not an aoe or mass healing skill that heals multiple random people that you arent grouped with, and still heal other people they arent grouped with.

I want everyone to play how they want but there has to be a middle ground. Healing is kind of broken. I hate 40k health magplars that can carry a group of random players just as much as i hate werewolves in crimson that hit hard and have insane healing. And i also think its good that zos explore things that will help performance.

I've never said its a cut and dry issue, im sure zos can improve on things. I just find it better for the game in general, but i wouldnt be against zos figuring out a way that some people can heal other randoms. Its just hard to find common group when people are so hypocritical on here, and so quick to flip out over something they dont like.

eso_lags

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Now at least they have to actually be grouped if they want to be carried by a healer. And that will give them a better chance of killing people.

1vX exists. Of course, its generally successfully done by an experienced player against far less experienced and very disorganized opponents.

And what you ignore here is that the current healing changes should make 1vXing easier than ever. Now, its an experienced player vs far less experienced players who often aren't grouped up and thus can't heal each other.

This change suits 1vXers farming potatoes and DPS zerg surfers tagging with aoes on one bar and running a resto of self heals on the other:

or THE CHEESERS running health tanks with self healing of 18k.

HEALS SHOULD NOT SCALE OFF HEALTH. Over-POWERED heals scaling from spell damage made sustaining big self heals solo easy peasy on mag DPS. This stinks even worse.

When Midyear Mayhem starts and the new PvEers hit Cyro they are going to suffer really badly. I predict oceans of tears. NOT A GOOD PROMOTION OF PVP> Alliance open field PvP is what drew a lot of us to ESO. It's a unique asset. Yet, it seems to be drifting to yet another small arena style play BUT in an alliance war. It makes no sense.


This current situation is just ridiculous. It has made a handful of people happy and upset many more.
1 no performance improvement
2a No ability to join pugs for new healers/support.
2b Almost no zone pickups, even from guild leaders who used to do it because all the LFGs are healers.
3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
4 Ball groups and small groups in voice have extreme advantage now over soloers trying to defend. This compounds the historic one sideness of certain playtimes due to the times when guilds tend to play around the world (aka night-capping by those who forget other counties have their peak while NA are asleep.)
5 More zerg surfing DPS spamming aoes and self heals that tag everything so they never learn to choose targets. Self heals and damage proc sets that proc anyone -targeted or not, grouped or not, mean they don't need to group. This is just plain
unfair.

Please read the thread before responding. Every 5 posts someone says 'just join/make a group. There are fifty ways to say this isn't a solution. Go read them above and think before posting that facile response. Please.

I love the way you write stuff out, its hilarious.

I predict oceans of tears.

🤣🤣🤣 me too, love it. But to be fair there are oceans of tears every pvp event. Maybe if I could go near a keep without getting a 5 second skill delay I wouldnt have to go look for pvp in a town 😑.


1 no performance improvement
agreed

2a No ability to join pugs for new healers/support.
They should put the group finder back in cyro, or a better version. Because if its still there i dont see it. Also its pretty easy for anyone to say "healer lfg" and get picked up. Like this is normal in most games where grouping is needed.

2b Almost no zone pickups, even from guild leaders who used to do it because all the LFGs are healers.
this could be true, idk, but i dont see the same names spamming LFG over and over so im assuming they got picked up. But this could definitely be an issue.

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

4 Ball groups and small groups in voice have extreme advantage now over soloers trying to defend. This compounds the historic one sideness of certain playtimes due to the times when guilds tend to play around the world (aka night-capping by those who forget other counties have their peak while NA are asleep.)
they always did..

5 More zerg surfing DPS spamming aoes and self heals that tag everything so they never learn to choose targets. Self heals and damage proc sets that proc anyone -targeted or not, grouped or not, mean they don't need to group. This is just plain
unfair.
Its not a perfect system but nothing stops you from doing that.

aetherial_heavenn

eso_lags wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Now at least they have to actually be grouped if they want to be carried by a healer. And that will give them a better chance of killing people.

1vX exists. Of course, its generally successfully done by an experienced player against far less experienced and very disorganized opponents.

And what you ignore here is that the current healing changes should make 1vXing easier than ever. Now, its an experienced player vs far less experienced players who often aren't grouped up and thus can't heal each other.

This change suits 1vXers farming potatoes and DPS zerg surfers tagging with aoes on one bar and running a resto of self heals on the other:

or THE CHEESERS running health tanks with self healing of 18k.

HEALS SHOULD NOT SCALE OFF HEALTH. Over-POWERED heals scaling from spell damage made sustaining big self heals solo easy peasy on mag DPS. This stinks even worse.

When Midyear Mayhem starts and the new PvEers hit Cyro they are going to suffer really badly. I predict oceans of tears. NOT A GOOD PROMOTION OF PVP> Alliance open field PvP is what drew a lot of us to ESO. It's a unique asset. Yet, it seems to be drifting to yet another small arena style play BUT in an alliance war. It makes no sense.


This current situation is just ridiculous. It has made a handful of people happy and upset many more.
1 no performance improvement
2a No ability to join pugs for new healers/support.
2b Almost no zone pickups, even from guild leaders who used to do it because all the LFGs are healers.
3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
4 Ball groups and small groups in voice have extreme advantage now over soloers trying to defend. This compounds the historic one sideness of certain playtimes due to the times when guilds tend to play around the world (aka night-capping by those who forget other counties have their peak while NA are asleep.)
5 More zerg surfing DPS spamming aoes and self heals that tag everything so they never learn to choose targets. Self heals and damage proc sets that proc anyone -targeted or not, grouped or not, mean they don't need to group. This is just plain
unfair.

Please read the thread before responding. Every 5 posts someone says 'just join/make a group. There are fifty ways to say this isn't a solution. Go read them above and think before posting that facile response. Please.

I love the way you write stuff out, its hilarious.

I predict oceans of tears.

🤣🤣🤣 me too, love it. But to be fair there are oceans of tears every pvp event. Maybe if I could go near a keep without getting a 5 second skill delay I wouldnt have to go look for pvp in a town 😑.


1 no performance improvement
agreed

2a No ability to join pugs for new healers/support.
They should put the group finder back in cyro, or a better version. Because if its still there i dont see it. Also its pretty easy for anyone to say "healer lfg" and get picked up. Like this is normal in most games where grouping is needed.

2b Almost no zone pickups, even from guild leaders who used to do it because all the LFGs are healers.
this could be true, idk, but i dont see the same names spamming LFG over and over so im assuming they got picked up. But this could definitely be an issue.

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

4 Ball groups and small groups in voice have extreme advantage now over soloers trying to defend. This compounds the historic one sideness of certain playtimes due to the times when guilds tend to play around the world (aka night-capping by those who forget other counties have their peak while NA are asleep.)
they always did..

5 More zerg surfing DPS spamming aoes and self heals that tag everything so they never learn to choose targets. Self heals and damage proc sets that proc anyone -targeted or not, grouped or not, mean they don't need to group. This is just plain
unfair.
Its not a perfect system but nothing stops you from doing that.

Thanks for the considered reply. And the compliment...I think

The last point...I like being a healer/support. But yeah I have done exactly that. My zerg surfing aoe spamming necro is ranking very nicely while playing like a scrub. That's what is unfair.... healers can't do that.

But I do agree the way heals have been set up needs fixing. We just disagree on how.

renne

eso_lags wrote: »

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

You don't get AP for damaging targets and what point is an aoe damage skill when you're trying to seige?

eso_lags

renne wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

You don't get AP for damaging targets and what point is an aoe damage skill when you're trying to seige?

What do you mean by targets? keeps? My understanding was this person was saying theres no option for a healer to damage other players and earn AP unless they siege them. Am i wrong?

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Now at least they have to actually be grouped if they want to be carried by a healer. And that will give them a better chance of killing people.

1vX exists. Of course, its generally successfully done by an experienced player against far less experienced and very disorganized opponents.

And what you ignore here is that the current healing changes should make 1vXing easier than ever. Now, its an experienced player vs far less experienced players who often aren't grouped up and thus can't heal each other.

This change suits 1vXers farming potatoes and DPS zerg surfers tagging with aoes on one bar and running a resto of self heals on the other:

or THE CHEESERS running health tanks with self healing of 18k.

HEALS SHOULD NOT SCALE OFF HEALTH. Over-POWERED heals scaling from spell damage made sustaining big self heals solo easy peasy on mag DPS. This stinks even worse.

When Midyear Mayhem starts and the new PvEers hit Cyro they are going to suffer really badly. I predict oceans of tears. NOT A GOOD PROMOTION OF PVP> Alliance open field PvP is what drew a lot of us to ESO. It's a unique asset. Yet, it seems to be drifting to yet another small arena style play BUT in an alliance war. It makes no sense.


This current situation is just ridiculous. It has made a handful of people happy and upset many more.
1 no performance improvement
2a No ability to join pugs for new healers/support.
2b Almost no zone pickups, even from guild leaders who used to do it because all the LFGs are healers.
3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
4 Ball groups and small groups in voice have extreme advantage now over soloers trying to defend. This compounds the historic one sideness of certain playtimes due to the times when guilds tend to play around the world (aka night-capping by those who forget other counties have their peak while NA are asleep.)
5 More zerg surfing DPS spamming aoes and self heals that tag everything so they never learn to choose targets. Self heals and damage proc sets that proc anyone -targeted or not, grouped or not, mean they don't need to group. This is just plain
unfair.

Please read the thread before responding. Every 5 posts someone says 'just join/make a group. There are fifty ways to say this isn't a solution. Go read them above and think before posting that facile response. Please.

I love the way you write stuff out, its hilarious.

I predict oceans of tears.

🤣🤣🤣 me too, love it. But to be fair there are oceans of tears every pvp event. Maybe if I could go near a keep without getting a 5 second skill delay I wouldnt have to go look for pvp in a town 😑.


1 no performance improvement
agreed

2a No ability to join pugs for new healers/support.
They should put the group finder back in cyro, or a better version. Because if its still there i dont see it. Also its pretty easy for anyone to say "healer lfg" and get picked up. Like this is normal in most games where grouping is needed.

2b Almost no zone pickups, even from guild leaders who used to do it because all the LFGs are healers.
this could be true, idk, but i dont see the same names spamming LFG over and over so im assuming they got picked up. But this could definitely be an issue.

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

4 Ball groups and small groups in voice have extreme advantage now over soloers trying to defend. This compounds the historic one sideness of certain playtimes due to the times when guilds tend to play around the world (aka night-capping by those who forget other counties have their peak while NA are asleep.)
they always did..

5 More zerg surfing DPS spamming aoes and self heals that tag everything so they never learn to choose targets. Self heals and damage proc sets that proc anyone -targeted or not, grouped or not, mean they don't need to group. This is just plain
unfair.
Its not a perfect system but nothing stops you from doing that.

Thanks for the considered reply. And the compliment...I think

The last point...I like being a healer/support. But yeah I have done exactly that. My zerg surfing aoe spamming necro is ranking very nicely while playing like a scrub. That's what is unfair.... healers can't do that.

But I do agree the way heals have been set up needs fixing. We just disagree on how.

It was a compliment lol. I think i might have misinterpreted what you meant on your 3rd point though >_<

Jaraal

renne wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

You don't get AP for damaging targets and what point is an aoe damage skill when you're trying to seige?

I get kills with siege every day. And there is certainly aoe damage that procs off siege. Also, you don't have to get the killing blow to get AP from a player's death.

Vlad9425

At what point do the devs start listening to what the majority of their players want? Or are we just gonna get ignored again as per usual? Your experiment failed ZOS, these healing changes are horrible and easily the worst change to PvP in years.

caperb

Jaraal wrote: »

renne wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

3 No useful function for soloers without siege...because they don't have AP. At least they could heal the ram until someone got them organised before this change
Id agree its a problem but you should probably adapt and throw on an aoe dmg skill or something in the meantime.

You don't get AP for damaging targets and what point is an aoe damage skill when you're trying to seige?

I get kills with siege every day. And there is certainly aoe damage that procs off siege. Also, you don't have to get the killing blow to get AP from a player's death.

Try oiling with Vicious Death this event, will probably give you lots of AP

Varana

eso_lags wrote: »

I am never going to agree with everything in this thread because i believe that healers carry people in this game, like badly. I also think its why a lot of players never improve, because they run around in massive groups where they dont have to CC break because theyre always getting healed.

Why is that "carrying"?
It is the whole point of being in a group and having more specialised roles, that you're not doing everything yourself. Not to the degree it is in PvE, but the whole idea behind a healer is to support other players so they can focus on other things. It's called teamwork.
I really don't understand this mindset of going into Cyrodiil - vast expanses of land, literal fortresses to conquer, and (theoretically) armies of players fighting against each other - and then trying to break it down into tiny fights between two people or so.
Players benefit from playing together so they are stronger than they would be on their own. Isn't that what playing together is about, and why is this suddenly "carrying"?

Ranger209

Varana wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

I am never going to agree with everything in this thread because i believe that healers carry people in this game, like badly. I also think its why a lot of players never improve, because they run around in massive groups where they dont have to CC break because theyre always getting healed.

Why is that "carrying"?
It is the whole point of being in a group and having more specialised roles, that you're not doing everything yourself. Not to the degree it is in PvE, but the whole idea behind a healer is to support other players so they can focus on other things. It's called teamwork.
I really don't understand this mindset of going into Cyrodiil - vast expanses of land, literal fortresses to conquer, and (theoretically) armies of players fighting against each other - and then trying to break it down into tiny fights between two people or so.
Players benefit from playing together so they are stronger than they would be on their own. Isn't that what playing together is about, and why is this suddenly "carrying"?

Perhaps it is only carrying if you are not in a group, but if you are in a group it is suddenly legit?

VaranisArano

Ranger209 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

I am never going to agree with everything in this thread because i believe that healers carry people in this game, like badly. I also think its why a lot of players never improve, because they run around in massive groups where they dont have to CC break because theyre always getting healed.

Why is that "carrying"?
It is the whole point of being in a group and having more specialised roles, that you're not doing everything yourself. Not to the degree it is in PvE, but the whole idea behind a healer is to support other players so they can focus on other things. It's called teamwork.
I really don't understand this mindset of going into Cyrodiil - vast expanses of land, literal fortresses to conquer, and (theoretically) armies of players fighting against each other - and then trying to break it down into tiny fights between two people or so.
Players benefit from playing together so they are stronger than they would be on their own. Isn't that what playing together is about, and why is this suddenly "carrying"?

Perhaps it is only carrying if you are not in a group, but if you are in a group it is suddenly legit?

LOL.

I've been that healer. No offense to those sweet PVEers last MYM who wanted to quest in Cropsford, but they were not prepared for the AD Grand Overlord who showed up to solo the town. To be fair, I couldn't kill the guy either on my healer, but I could at least keep him off the flags for a while and keep the PVEers in the fight as they overextended, died, rezzed up, and tried again. If something similar happens this MYM, I guess I'll just have to watch them die or we'll stop and group up before going to defend the flags...but hey, at least he won't have to deal with ungrouped PVEers getting carried by a PVP healer! His job got a lot easier.

robertthebard

renne wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Then make, or join a group. Reading here, it's a 12 person activity, 12 people == group activity. If I want to participate in group activities, I'm going to join a group, not sit on the sidelines complaining that I can't solo it, or that they took steps to encourage group play in a group play environment. The irony here being, of course, how the topic is usually the other way around, ie, "if you want to take part in group activities, you should have a group to do so".

So I guess I'm less confused, and more amused at the irony.

There's literally a post by VaranisArano explaining why this isn't that easy five posts above yours. I'm not going to lie, I'm sick of people coming into these threads and smugly suggesting that we former solo healers should ~just group up or make a group, like it's just that simple and the negatives of this haven't been explained ad nauseum (rather like explanations to the excruciatingly disingenuous "lol if ur a solo healer how do u heal anyone if no one is around!!!" posts) often in that very thread.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Former happily solo healing magplar looking for lazy proc build, I guess.

This was me yesterday. May I recommend a nice Julianos and Vicious Death 5 x 5 set up? Helmet and shoulder can be dealers choice.

Just because it’s an oldie doesn’t mean it’s not still a goodie.

Thanks for this. I guess I have to contribute to the annoying proc meta now since my preferred style of playing no longer exists.

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking? Not to worry though, it's not like I'm one of those people that insists dungeons be made solo-able either, I'd have the same advice for that crowd. In a "PuGs are bad" thread, I suggested the very simple, and logical "don't PuG". Don't have 11 friends, or there aren't enough people in your guilds? Then make a smaller group, and do what you can with that. Are you a true solo player, meaning you're not even in a guild, let alone multiples? Make some friends for when you want to do some group oriented stuff. Reading through here, it's likely you could recruit from the thread. You can definitely recruit from the map.

You see, I feel like encouraging group play in an MMO is a good thing. It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way? So yes, I find this thread hilarious. If a group really needs your heals, they could add you to their party, yes?

Joy_Division

eso_lags wrote: »

Im not implying you've said these things, maybe you have or havent i really dont know, but the point is that some of these things are valid arguments that people love to make about solo players, or people who complain about a certain change. So arent people choosing to not group putting themselves at an unnecessary disadvantage?

Well, you are right in that you don;t really know anything about me since you assume I have disdain for solo players or feel I HAVE to go chase three people around a tower.

I didn't chase people around resource towers, but what I did do a lot in the open environment that is Cyrodiil was get into a spontaneous fight at some random place on the map against say 3 grouped players with say 2 other ungrouped players. That should and used to be an honest competition in which everyone played by the same rules. Now, that's not the case and the 3 ungrouped players have to engage the fight with a hand tied behind their back or analogous to playing a game of chess spotting a piece. That is what is most frustrating to me personally. I do have a self heal, I do know how to play, I can accept losing to a more experienced player. It absolutely sucks that fight is now dictated more by the different rules-sets ZOS has in place rather than player skill. Even the people who are grouped should look with disdain at such circumstances since they are being "carried," to use a term that is brandied about a lot here, especially if they have the slightest bit of competitive drive. I don't think that you feeling that you are getting trolled by high health healers is an acceptable justification for robbing the spontaneous and impromptu competitive aspects that emerge in an open world environment.

The other thing I enjoyed most about Cyrodiil is defending castles. Everyone in the castle is on my team and I am dependent on them to win, not just the people I am grouped with. We win/lose together and the Alliance war keeps track of the entire result, not just the actions of separate groups. This is an Alliance War with Alliance objectives; not an instanced Battleground arena that is disconnected from the rest of the campaign. We need brave souls to get off the roof spamming light attacks and actually contest the flags in the face of ridiculously strong siege and multiple groups of enemy players charging in. Those brave souls can't possibly stand up against an Alliance of enemies just relying on the few healers that might happen to be in their group. The entire keep's defenses need to be directed at the critical spot and that is now not possible, but somehow the entire attackers' offensive skills can be. Once again, a key component of Alliance competition is being thrown out the window.

So, no, I don't have disdain for solo players. I'm just kind of funny that when I play a game or engage in competition, I have the expectation that the rules will be the same for everyone, regardless of their preferences and how they choose to play said game. I also expect that in a game that is simulating a military conflict, that players who are supposedly on my Alliance and whose actions contribute directly to whether or not I win or lose, that we would not be faced in an analogous scenario to say a British medic during D-Day who would tell his American "ally," "Sorry ol' chap, it seems my medical kit isn't able to tend to your wounds."

VaranisArano

robertthebard wrote: »

renne wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Then make, or join a group. Reading here, it's a 12 person activity, 12 people == group activity. If I want to participate in group activities, I'm going to join a group, not sit on the sidelines complaining that I can't solo it, or that they took steps to encourage group play in a group play environment. The irony here being, of course, how the topic is usually the other way around, ie, "if you want to take part in group activities, you should have a group to do so".

So I guess I'm less confused, and more amused at the irony.

There's literally a post by VaranisArano explaining why this isn't that easy five posts above yours. I'm not going to lie, I'm sick of people coming into these threads and smugly suggesting that we former solo healers should ~just group up or make a group, like it's just that simple and the negatives of this haven't been explained ad nauseum (rather like explanations to the excruciatingly disingenuous "lol if ur a solo healer how do u heal anyone if no one is around!!!" posts) often in that very thread.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Former happily solo healing magplar looking for lazy proc build, I guess.

This was me yesterday. May I recommend a nice Julianos and Vicious Death 5 x 5 set up? Helmet and shoulder can be dealers choice.

Just because it’s an oldie doesn’t mean it’s not still a goodie.

Thanks for this. I guess I have to contribute to the annoying proc meta now since my preferred style of playing no longer exists.

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking? Not to worry though, it's not like I'm one of those people that insists dungeons be made solo-able either, I'd have the same advice for that crowd. In a "PuGs are bad" thread, I suggested the very simple, and logical "don't PuG". Don't have 11 friends, or there aren't enough people in your guilds? Then make a smaller group, and do what you can with that. Are you a true solo player, meaning you're not even in a guild, let alone multiples? Make some friends for when you want to do some group oriented stuff. Reading through here, it's likely you could recruit from the thread. You can definitely recruit from the map.

You see, I feel like encouraging group play in an MMO is a good thing. It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way? So yes, I find this thread hilarious. If a group really needs your heals, they could add you to their party, yes?

You are constantly missing the point in favor of pushing a generic PVE-based "group content = group up" philosophy onto PVP Cyrodiil. As someone who does both, trying to map the grouping requirements of 4-role dungeon groups onto the huge variety of playstyles that Cyrodiil supports in a faction-based, objective focused PVP mode makes me wonder how much experience you have in Cyrodiil PVP.

Is your confusion and laughter because we're talking about healers, and you are thinking of the PVE healer role who is almost never seen outside of group content where they are only ever supporting a set number of people?

Outside of Harrowstorms, WBs, and other similar "big battles", PVE almost never had a case where a PVE healer would need to support someone outside of their group. If that's what you are thinking of, then I can understand your apparent non-comprehension of what a PVP healer (solo or grouped) wants to do.

Cyrodiil PVP features really BIG fights. Remember that group size used to be 24? Well, there was one emperorship dethrone where I was in a full EP raid, there were 2 full EP PUG raids with us, various EP in smaller groups or "solo" following with us, fighting against 2 full AD guild raids who were defending the Emperorship, probably some AD PUGs, and a DC raid trying to help the dethrone. Even if we don't count the PUGs, that's a 72 vs 48 vs 24 three way fight for who gets to be Emperor.

When's the last time your PVE healer could potentially heal up to 72 players all fighting in the same battle?

That's what PVP healers used to be able to do. That's large scale, faction-based, objective focused gameplay at its primetime best. And while there are many benefits to being in a group, no one had to be in a group to participate.

Now, PVP healers are forced to be in a group and can only heal up to 11 other people in their group. Not in my group? I can't do jack to help you, even if I will get hit with Vicious Death if you die.


I dunno. Maybe from a PVE perspective, only healing 11 other people looks like a pretty good deal. After all, that's all trial healers do, right? They wouldn't try to "solo" heal a trial without being part of the group.

But from the perspective of a PVP healer, (A) I used to able to heal anyone on my faction who needed it, which is pretty important when we're fighting intelligent enemy players instead of repetitive boss mechanics. Unlike a trials boss, enemy players will target players I literally cannot heal anymore, even if I'll take damage or eventually lose the fight if they die. (B.) Unlike in a trial, Cyrodiil has a lot more objectives than "go there, kill mobs and boss with team." On a two-front AvAvA war, there are always multiple battles going on, and so more experienced healers often wanted to pick which battle they were going to instead of relying on a PUG crown to make that decision for them or having to beg for a group once they got there. (C.) Unlike trials, where unless you are one of the godly players who have soloed trial fights, you absolutely must group up to participate no matter your role, Cyrodiil has never before required anyone to group up before participating in a fight on any build. Now, healers, and only healers, must group up if they want to participate.


Its a big nerf to PVP healers. And it removes a lot of freedom that healers had to play how we wanted. We're not the same as PVE trial healers, and treating us the same really only points out the vast differences between PVE group content and PVP Cyrodiil.

But if none of that addresses either your initial confusion or current hilarity, well...
I guess I'm glad that you find amusement at our expense?

DT-ARR

VaranisArano wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

renne wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Then make, or join a group. Reading here, it's a 12 person activity, 12 people == group activity. If I want to participate in group activities, I'm going to join a group, not sit on the sidelines complaining that I can't solo it, or that they took steps to encourage group play in a group play environment. The irony here being, of course, how the topic is usually the other way around, ie, "if you want to take part in group activities, you should have a group to do so".

So I guess I'm less confused, and more amused at the irony.

There's literally a post by VaranisArano explaining why this isn't that easy five posts above yours. I'm not going to lie, I'm sick of people coming into these threads and smugly suggesting that we former solo healers should ~just group up or make a group, like it's just that simple and the negatives of this haven't been explained ad nauseum (rather like explanations to the excruciatingly disingenuous "lol if ur a solo healer how do u heal anyone if no one is around!!!" posts) often in that very thread.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Former happily solo healing magplar looking for lazy proc build, I guess.

This was me yesterday. May I recommend a nice Julianos and Vicious Death 5 x 5 set up? Helmet and shoulder can be dealers choice.

Just because it’s an oldie doesn’t mean it’s not still a goodie.

Thanks for this. I guess I have to contribute to the annoying proc meta now since my preferred style of playing no longer exists.

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking? Not to worry though, it's not like I'm one of those people that insists dungeons be made solo-able either, I'd have the same advice for that crowd. In a "PuGs are bad" thread, I suggested the very simple, and logical "don't PuG". Don't have 11 friends, or there aren't enough people in your guilds? Then make a smaller group, and do what you can with that. Are you a true solo player, meaning you're not even in a guild, let alone multiples? Make some friends for when you want to do some group oriented stuff. Reading through here, it's likely you could recruit from the thread. You can definitely recruit from the map.

You see, I feel like encouraging group play in an MMO is a good thing. It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way? So yes, I find this thread hilarious. If a group really needs your heals, they could add you to their party, yes?

You are constantly missing the point in favor of pushing a generic PVE-based "group content = group up" philosophy onto PVP Cyrodiil. As someone who does both, trying to map the grouping requirements of 4-role dungeon groups onto the huge variety of playstyles that Cyrodiil supports in a faction-based, objective focused PVP mode makes me wonder how much experience you have in Cyrodiil PVP.

Is your confusion and laughter because we're talking about healers, and you are thinking of the PVE healer role who is almost never seen outside of group content where they are only ever supporting a set number of people?

Outside of Harrowstorms, WBs, and other similar "big battles", PVE almost never had a case where a PVE healer would need to support someone outside of their group. If that's what you are thinking of, then I can understand your apparent non-comprehension of what a PVP healer (solo or grouped) wants to do.

Cyrodiil PVP features really BIG fights. Remember that group size used to be 24? Well, there was one emperorship dethrone where I was in a full EP raid, there were 2 full EP PUG raids with us, various EP in smaller groups or "solo" following with us, fighting against 2 full AD guild raids who were defending the Emperorship, probably some AD PUGs, and a DC raid trying to help the dethrone. Even if we don't count the PUGs, that's a 72 vs 48 vs 24 three way fight for who gets to be Emperor.

When's the last time your PVE healer could potentially heal up to 72 players all fighting in the same battle?

That's what PVP healers used to be able to do. That's large scale, faction-based, objective focused gameplay at its primetime best. And while there are many benefits to being in a group, no one had to be in a group to participate.

Now, PVP healers are forced to be in a group and can only heal up to 11 other people in their group. Not in my group? I can't do jack to help you, even if I will get hit with Vicious Death if you die.


I dunno. Maybe from a PVE perspective, only healing 11 other people looks like a pretty good deal. After all, that's all trial healers do, right? They wouldn't try to "solo" heal a trial without being part of the group.

But from the perspective of a PVP healer, (A) I used to able to heal anyone on my faction who needed it, which is pretty important when we're fighting intelligent enemy players instead of repetitive boss mechanics. Unlike a trials boss, enemy players will target players I literally cannot heal anymore, even if I'll take damage or eventually lose the fight if they die. (B.) Unlike in a trial, Cyrodiil has a lot more objectives than "go there, kill mobs and boss with team." On a two-front AvAvA war, there are always multiple battles going on, and so more experienced healers often wanted to pick which battle they were going to instead of relying on a PUG crown to make that decision for them or having to beg for a group once they got there. (C.) Unlike trials, where unless you are one of the godly players who have soloed trial fights, you absolutely must group up to participate no matter your role, Cyrodiil has never before required anyone to group up before participating in a fight on any build. Now, healers, and only healers, must group up if they want to participate.


Its a big nerf to PVP healers. And it removes a lot of freedom that healers had to play how we wanted. We're not the same as PVE trial healers, and treating us the same really only points out the vast differences between PVE group content and PVP Cyrodiil.

But if none of that addresses either your initial confusion or current hilarity, well...
I guess I'm glad that you find amusement at our expense?

^^ Well said!

Wing

robertthebard wrote: »

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking? Not to worry though, it's not like I'm one of those people that insists dungeons be made solo-able either, I'd have the same advice for that crowd. In a "PuGs are bad" thread, I suggested the very simple, and logical "don't PuG". Don't have 11 friends, or there aren't enough people in your guilds? Then make a smaller group, and do what you can with that. Are you a true solo player, meaning you're not even in a guild, let alone multiples? Make some friends for when you want to do some group oriented stuff. Reading through here, it's likely you could recruit from the thread. You can definitely recruit from the map.

You see, I feel like encouraging group play in an MMO is a good thing. It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way? So yes, I find this thread hilarious. If a group really needs your heals, they could add you to their party, yes?

encourage =/= force

DreadDaedroth

robertthebard wrote: »

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking?

What's more massive and multyplayer than being able to heal and buff your whole alliance instead of 12 players only?

Goregrinder

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

Faded

Joy_Division wrote: »

It absolutely sucks that fight is now dictated more by the different rules-sets ZOS has in place rather than player skill. Even the people who are grouped should look with disdain at such circumstances since they are being "carried," to use a term that is brandied about a lot here, especially if they have the slightest bit of competitive drive.

For real, between performance surprises and tilting the playing field, Zenimax is stealing every kill. How is that fun.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think that you feeling that you are getting trolled by high health healers is an acceptable justification for robbing the spontaneous and impromptu competitive aspects that emerge in an open world environment.

RIP one of the best things about Cyrodiil, and ESO.

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

You aren't wrong in general...I just fail to see how it applies to the way ZOS rendered healers useless if they aren't in a group. 1v1 arenas, huh? If I wanted that, I'd duel by Undaunted tents. I'm playing in Cyrodiil's large and small scale battles, not Quake 3.

As for the rest...I mean, its no longer a matter of "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" for healers.

That's what its like for non-healers. Don't want to group? Carry on with your healing disadvantage. Have fun!

That's not what its like for healers. If I don't want to join a group, I literally can't do the one thing my healer used to be able to do: heal other people on my faction in the same battle.

So, uh, equal opportunity? No, I don't have that anymore. If I'm not in a group, my PVP healer is rendered more useless than a low-DPS fake tank in Vet DLC dungeon. Thanks, ZOS!


(And before I get the inevitable "but you'd be a more effective healer in a group!" response from someone, I point you back to Goregrinder's point that "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!"

Why do players insist that everyone except for healers ought to have the freedom to be less than optimal by not running in a group, but healers saying they'd like to be able to function at all when not grouped up is just a bridge too far? Its an obvious double standard.)

VaranisArano

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking?

What's more massive and multyplayer than being able to heal and buff your whole alliance instead of 12 players only?

"Sorry, guys, I can only heal the 12 players in my group."


"Sorry, guys, I can only heal the 12 players in my group."


"Sorry, guys, I realize this is an MMO who sold Cyrodiil as an AvAvA PVP mode for large scale combat, but I can only heal the 12 players in my group."

Goregrinder

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

You aren't wrong in general...I just fail to see how it applies to the way ZOS rendered healers useless if they aren't in a group. 1v1 arenas, huh? If I wanted that, I'd duel by Undaunted tents. I'm playing in Cyrodiil's large and small scale battles, not Quake 3.

As for the rest...I mean, its no longer a matter of "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" for healers.

That's what its like for non-healers. Don't want to group? Carry on with your healing disadvantage. Have fun!

That's not what its like for healers. If I don't want to join a group, I literally can't do the one thing my healer used to be able to do: heal other people on my faction in the same battle.

So, uh, equal opportunity? No, I don't have that anymore. If I'm not in a group, my PVP healer is rendered more useless than a low-DPS fake tank in Vet DLC dungeon. Thanks, ZOS!


(And before I get the inevitable "but you'd be a more effective healer in a group!" response, I point you back to Goregrinder's point that "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!"

Why do players insist that everyone except for healers ought to have the freedom to be less than optimal by not running in a group, but healers saying they'd like to be able to function at all when not grouped up is just a bridge too far? Its an obvious double standard.)

Because in most other fantasy based MMORPG's that use the holy-trinity system, healers can really only do one thing...heal. In a literal sense, healing classes in other games literally can only heal, and that's about all they contribute in combat.

ESO is different, even if your build is 100% a healing build, you can still do other things as a healer that contribute to combat due to the nature of how combat and classes work within ESO. Healers can still DPS, debuff, throw dots, provide utility, etc outside of heals.

Point being: In ESO even if you're built for healing, you can still do something other than heal in PVP. In other MMORPG's, if you're playing a healing class you're pretty much stuck to only healing and maybe debuffing or utility, other than maybe Disc priest or something. I think that's an important distinction to make when it comes to balancing combat in ESO, since copying and pasting formulae from other games will simply not work well in ESO, because of their distinctive differences.

I think 50 players throwing AoE heals that don't check who is actually in your group, all healing each other is broken. There is no strategy or planning behind showing up to a keep by yourself, huddling up ontop of a giant group of allies, and spamming your AoE heals with no thought in the world. Requiring AoE healing to only hit people you are actually grouped with achieves two things:

1) Enables strategic gameplay over dumbfire gameplay, which inherently makes PVP more competitive by raising the skill ceiling up ever so slightly.

2) Requires the server to perform less checks when heals are dumbefired, since it has less targets to check.

Do I believe healers shouldn't be able to cast ANY form of healing outside of a group? Well no, I think they should still be able to cast any heal that require them to manually face or target their character and point it at another individual character..aka targeted heals should still function.

Want to heal outside of a group? No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it! Want the benefit of being able to heal MULTIPLE players at once in PVP? No worries you can do that too, just hit X,Z, or Y in zone chat and accept the invite!

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

You aren't wrong in general...I just fail to see how it applies to the way ZOS rendered healers useless if they aren't in a group. 1v1 arenas, huh? If I wanted that, I'd duel by Undaunted tents. I'm playing in Cyrodiil's large and small scale battles, not Quake 3.

As for the rest...I mean, its no longer a matter of "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" for healers.

That's what its like for non-healers. Don't want to group? Carry on with your healing disadvantage. Have fun!

That's not what its like for healers. If I don't want to join a group, I literally can't do the one thing my healer used to be able to do: heal other people on my faction in the same battle.

So, uh, equal opportunity? No, I don't have that anymore. If I'm not in a group, my PVP healer is rendered more useless than a low-DPS fake tank in Vet DLC dungeon. Thanks, ZOS!


(And before I get the inevitable "but you'd be a more effective healer in a group!" response, I point you back to Goregrinder's point that "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!"

Why do players insist that everyone except for healers ought to have the freedom to be less than optimal by not running in a group, but healers saying they'd like to be able to function at all when not grouped up is just a bridge too far? Its an obvious double standard.)

Because in most other fantasy based MMORPG's that use the holy-trinity system, healers can really only do one thing...heal. In a literal sense, healing classes in other games literally can only heal, and that's about all they contribute in combat.

ESO is different, even if your build is 100% a healing build, you can still do other things as a healer that contribute to combat due to the nature of how combat and classes work within ESO. Healers can still DPS, debuff, throw dots, provide utility, etc outside of heals.

Point being: In ESO even if you're built for healing, you can still do something other than heal in PVP. In other MMORPG's, if you're playing a healing class you're pretty much stuck to only healing and maybe debuffing or utility, other than maybe Disc priest or something. I think that's an important distinction to make when it comes to balancing combat in ESO, since copying and pasting formulae from other games will simply not work well in ESO, because of their distinctive differences.

I think 50 players throwing AoE heals that don't check who is actually in your group, all healing each other is broken. There is no strategy or planning behind showing up to a keep by yourself, huddling up ontop of a giant group of allies, and spamming your AoE heals with no thought in the world. Requiring AoE healing to only hit people you are actually grouped with achieves two things:

1) Enables strategic gameplay over dumbfire gameplay, which inherently makes PVP more competitive by raising the skill ceiling up ever so slightly.

2) Requires the server to perform less checks when heals are dumbefired, since it has less targets to check.

Do I believe healers shouldn't be able to cast ANY form of healing outside of a group? Well no, I think they should still be able to cast any heal that require them to manually face or target their character and point it at another individual character..aka targeted heals should still function.

Want to heal outside of a group? No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it! Want the benefit of being able to heal MULTIPLE players at once in PVP? No worries you can do that too, just hit X,Z, or Y in zone chat and accept the invite!

Okay, so because you like the gameplay changes, you are okay with ungrouped healers being unable to do the one thing about their role that makes them actually healers: heal other players. "Oh, you can buff, debuff and do damage!" Yeah, but I can't effing heal, so what's the point?

I understand. "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Applies to everyone else except for healers, because you like the results. Pretty hypocritical, but hey, you like what you like.

And the suggestion to manually heal players one by one in the big fights we've pointed out in Cyrodiil?

Ludicrous! Or shall we limit ungrouped players to single-target damage too? No, that's a dumb limitation on player freedom and effectiveness when ungrouped in a large scale combat environment that would destroy 1vX and bombers as a playstyle. (And that's not even discussing how badly ESO is set up for targeted manual healing. AoE and smart heals make up the vast majority of the healer toolkit. You'd need a full healing rework to make that a legitimate suggestion. As it is, you offer crumbs and ask me to pretend that its a slice of cake.)

Goregrinder

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

You aren't wrong in general...I just fail to see how it applies to the way ZOS rendered healers useless if they aren't in a group. 1v1 arenas, huh? If I wanted that, I'd duel by Undaunted tents. I'm playing in Cyrodiil's large and small scale battles, not Quake 3.

As for the rest...I mean, its no longer a matter of "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" for healers.

That's what its like for non-healers. Don't want to group? Carry on with your healing disadvantage. Have fun!

That's not what its like for healers. If I don't want to join a group, I literally can't do the one thing my healer used to be able to do: heal other people on my faction in the same battle.

So, uh, equal opportunity? No, I don't have that anymore. If I'm not in a group, my PVP healer is rendered more useless than a low-DPS fake tank in Vet DLC dungeon. Thanks, ZOS!


(And before I get the inevitable "but you'd be a more effective healer in a group!" response, I point you back to Goregrinder's point that "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!"

Why do players insist that everyone except for healers ought to have the freedom to be less than optimal by not running in a group, but healers saying they'd like to be able to function at all when not grouped up is just a bridge too far? Its an obvious double standard.)

Because in most other fantasy based MMORPG's that use the holy-trinity system, healers can really only do one thing...heal. In a literal sense, healing classes in other games literally can only heal, and that's about all they contribute in combat.

ESO is different, even if your build is 100% a healing build, you can still do other things as a healer that contribute to combat due to the nature of how combat and classes work within ESO. Healers can still DPS, debuff, throw dots, provide utility, etc outside of heals.

Point being: In ESO even if you're built for healing, you can still do something other than heal in PVP. In other MMORPG's, if you're playing a healing class you're pretty much stuck to only healing and maybe debuffing or utility, other than maybe Disc priest or something. I think that's an important distinction to make when it comes to balancing combat in ESO, since copying and pasting formulae from other games will simply not work well in ESO, because of their distinctive differences.

I think 50 players throwing AoE heals that don't check who is actually in your group, all healing each other is broken. There is no strategy or planning behind showing up to a keep by yourself, huddling up ontop of a giant group of allies, and spamming your AoE heals with no thought in the world. Requiring AoE healing to only hit people you are actually grouped with achieves two things:

1) Enables strategic gameplay over dumbfire gameplay, which inherently makes PVP more competitive by raising the skill ceiling up ever so slightly.

2) Requires the server to perform less checks when heals are dumbefired, since it has less targets to check.

Do I believe healers shouldn't be able to cast ANY form of healing outside of a group? Well no, I think they should still be able to cast any heal that require them to manually face or target their character and point it at another individual character..aka targeted heals should still function.

Want to heal outside of a group? No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it! Want the benefit of being able to heal MULTIPLE players at once in PVP? No worries you can do that too, just hit X,Z, or Y in zone chat and accept the invite!

Okay, so because you like the gameplay changes, you are okay with ungrouped healers being unable to do the one thing about their role that makes them actually healers: heal other players. "Oh, you can buff, debuff and do damage!" Yeah, but I can't effing heal, so what's the point?

I understand. "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Applies to everyone else except for healers, because you like the results. Pretty hypocritical, but hey, you like what you like.

And the suggestion to manually heal players one by one in the big fights we've pointed out in Cyrodiil?

Ludicrous! Or shall we limit ungrouped players to single-target damage too? No, that's a dumb limitation on player freedom and effectiveness when ungrouped in a large scale combat environment that would destroy 1vX and bombers as a playstyle. (And that's not even discussing how badly ESO is set up for targeted manual healing. AoE and smart heals make up the vast majority of the healer toolkit. You'd need a full healing rework to make that a legitimate suggestion. As it is, you offer crumbs and ask me to pretend that its a slice of cake.)

You didn't read everything I wrote. I said I'm fine with healers casting heals outside of a group, just not heals that can hit more than one target at once.

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

You aren't wrong in general...I just fail to see how it applies to the way ZOS rendered healers useless if they aren't in a group. 1v1 arenas, huh? If I wanted that, I'd duel by Undaunted tents. I'm playing in Cyrodiil's large and small scale battles, not Quake 3.

As for the rest...I mean, its no longer a matter of "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" for healers.

That's what its like for non-healers. Don't want to group? Carry on with your healing disadvantage. Have fun!

That's not what its like for healers. If I don't want to join a group, I literally can't do the one thing my healer used to be able to do: heal other people on my faction in the same battle.

So, uh, equal opportunity? No, I don't have that anymore. If I'm not in a group, my PVP healer is rendered more useless than a low-DPS fake tank in Vet DLC dungeon. Thanks, ZOS!


(And before I get the inevitable "but you'd be a more effective healer in a group!" response, I point you back to Goregrinder's point that "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!"

Why do players insist that everyone except for healers ought to have the freedom to be less than optimal by not running in a group, but healers saying they'd like to be able to function at all when not grouped up is just a bridge too far? Its an obvious double standard.)

Because in most other fantasy based MMORPG's that use the holy-trinity system, healers can really only do one thing...heal. In a literal sense, healing classes in other games literally can only heal, and that's about all they contribute in combat.

ESO is different, even if your build is 100% a healing build, you can still do other things as a healer that contribute to combat due to the nature of how combat and classes work within ESO. Healers can still DPS, debuff, throw dots, provide utility, etc outside of heals.

Point being: In ESO even if you're built for healing, you can still do something other than heal in PVP. In other MMORPG's, if you're playing a healing class you're pretty much stuck to only healing and maybe debuffing or utility, other than maybe Disc priest or something. I think that's an important distinction to make when it comes to balancing combat in ESO, since copying and pasting formulae from other games will simply not work well in ESO, because of their distinctive differences.

I think 50 players throwing AoE heals that don't check who is actually in your group, all healing each other is broken. There is no strategy or planning behind showing up to a keep by yourself, huddling up ontop of a giant group of allies, and spamming your AoE heals with no thought in the world. Requiring AoE healing to only hit people you are actually grouped with achieves two things:

1) Enables strategic gameplay over dumbfire gameplay, which inherently makes PVP more competitive by raising the skill ceiling up ever so slightly.

2) Requires the server to perform less checks when heals are dumbefired, since it has less targets to check.

Do I believe healers shouldn't be able to cast ANY form of healing outside of a group? Well no, I think they should still be able to cast any heal that require them to manually face or target their character and point it at another individual character..aka targeted heals should still function.

Want to heal outside of a group? No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it! Want the benefit of being able to heal MULTIPLE players at once in PVP? No worries you can do that too, just hit X,Z, or Y in zone chat and accept the invite!

Okay, so because you like the gameplay changes, you are okay with ungrouped healers being unable to do the one thing about their role that makes them actually healers: heal other players. "Oh, you can buff, debuff and do damage!" Yeah, but I can't effing heal, so what's the point?

I understand. "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Applies to everyone else except for healers, because you like the results. Pretty hypocritical, but hey, you like what you like.

And the suggestion to manually heal players one by one in the big fights we've pointed out in Cyrodiil?

Ludicrous! Or shall we limit ungrouped players to single-target damage too? No, that's a dumb limitation on player freedom and effectiveness when ungrouped in a large scale combat environment that would destroy 1vX and bombers as a playstyle. (And that's not even discussing how badly ESO is set up for targeted manual healing. AoE and smart heals make up the vast majority of the healer toolkit. You'd need a full healing rework to make that a legitimate suggestion. As it is, you offer crumbs and ask me to pretend that its a slice of cake.)

You didn't read everything I wrote. I said I'm fine with healers casting heals outside of a group, just not heals that can hit more than one target at once.

That's where you said: "No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it!" Right?

I addressed that. Its ludicrous to suggest that, in the large scale battles of Cyrodiil, that single target, manual healing is sufficient, leaving aside that ESO doesn't really support single target healing - the majority of skills are AOE or smart healing for allies. Without a full healing rework, that's simply unworkable.

And unless you are also in favor of limiting all ungrouped players to single target, manually applied damage (which is also ludicrous), then its hypocritical to apply that requirement to only one playstyle: ungrouped healers.

robertthebard

VaranisArano wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

renne wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Then make, or join a group. Reading here, it's a 12 person activity, 12 people == group activity. If I want to participate in group activities, I'm going to join a group, not sit on the sidelines complaining that I can't solo it, or that they took steps to encourage group play in a group play environment. The irony here being, of course, how the topic is usually the other way around, ie, "if you want to take part in group activities, you should have a group to do so".

So I guess I'm less confused, and more amused at the irony.

There's literally a post by VaranisArano explaining why this isn't that easy five posts above yours. I'm not going to lie, I'm sick of people coming into these threads and smugly suggesting that we former solo healers should ~just group up or make a group, like it's just that simple and the negatives of this haven't been explained ad nauseum (rather like explanations to the excruciatingly disingenuous "lol if ur a solo healer how do u heal anyone if no one is around!!!" posts) often in that very thread.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Former happily solo healing magplar looking for lazy proc build, I guess.

This was me yesterday. May I recommend a nice Julianos and Vicious Death 5 x 5 set up? Helmet and shoulder can be dealers choice.

Just because it’s an oldie doesn’t mean it’s not still a goodie.

Thanks for this. I guess I have to contribute to the annoying proc meta now since my preferred style of playing no longer exists.

The horror, they made something group-centric in an MMO? What were they even thinking? Not to worry though, it's not like I'm one of those people that insists dungeons be made solo-able either, I'd have the same advice for that crowd. In a "PuGs are bad" thread, I suggested the very simple, and logical "don't PuG". Don't have 11 friends, or there aren't enough people in your guilds? Then make a smaller group, and do what you can with that. Are you a true solo player, meaning you're not even in a guild, let alone multiples? Make some friends for when you want to do some group oriented stuff. Reading through here, it's likely you could recruit from the thread. You can definitely recruit from the map.

You see, I feel like encouraging group play in an MMO is a good thing. It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way? So yes, I find this thread hilarious. If a group really needs your heals, they could add you to their party, yes?

You are constantly missing the point in favor of pushing a generic PVE-based "group content = group up" philosophy onto PVP Cyrodiil. As someone who does both, trying to map the grouping requirements of 4-role dungeon groups onto the huge variety of playstyles that Cyrodiil supports in a faction-based, objective focused PVP mode makes me wonder how much experience you have in Cyrodiil PVP.

Is your confusion and laughter because we're talking about healers, and you are thinking of the PVE healer role who is almost never seen outside of group content where they are only ever supporting a set number of people?

Outside of Harrowstorms, WBs, and other similar "big battles", PVE almost never had a case where a PVE healer would need to support someone outside of their group. If that's what you are thinking of, then I can understand your apparent non-comprehension of what a PVP healer (solo or grouped) wants to do.

Cyrodiil PVP features really BIG fights. Remember that group size used to be 24? Well, there was one emperorship dethrone where I was in a full EP raid, there were 2 full EP PUG raids with us, various EP in smaller groups or "solo" following with us, fighting against 2 full AD guild raids who were defending the Emperorship, probably some AD PUGs, and a DC raid trying to help the dethrone. Even if we don't count the PUGs, that's a 72 vs 48 vs 24 three way fight for who gets to be Emperor.

When's the last time your PVE healer could potentially heal up to 72 players all fighting in the same battle?

That's what PVP healers used to be able to do. That's large scale, faction-based, objective focused gameplay at its primetime best. And while there are many benefits to being in a group, no one had to be in a group to participate.

Now, PVP healers are forced to be in a group and can only heal up to 11 other people in their group. Not in my group? I can't do jack to help you, even if I will get hit with Vicious Death if you die.


I dunno. Maybe from a PVE perspective, only healing 11 other people looks like a pretty good deal. After all, that's all trial healers do, right? They wouldn't try to "solo" heal a trial without being part of the group.

But from the perspective of a PVP healer, (A) I used to able to heal anyone on my faction who needed it, which is pretty important when we're fighting intelligent enemy players instead of repetitive boss mechanics. Unlike a trials boss, enemy players will target players I literally cannot heal anymore, even if I'll take damage or eventually lose the fight if they die. (B.) Unlike in a trial, Cyrodiil has a lot more objectives than "go there, kill mobs and boss with team." On a two-front AvAvA war, there are always multiple battles going on, and so more experienced healers often wanted to pick which battle they were going to instead of relying on a PUG crown to make that decision for them or having to beg for a group once they got there. (C.) Unlike trials, where unless you are one of the godly players who have soloed trial fights, you absolutely must group up to participate no matter your role, Cyrodiil has never before required anyone to group up before participating in a fight on any build. Now, healers, and only healers, must group up if they want to participate.


Its a big nerf to PVP healers. And it removes a lot of freedom that healers had to play how we wanted. We're not the same as PVE trial healers, and treating us the same really only points out the vast differences between PVE group content and PVP Cyrodiil.

But if none of that addresses either your initial confusion or current hilarity, well...
I guess I'm glad that you find amusement at our expense?

I really stopped reading at "faction based". Why? Because none of the factions are one player. It's a faction v faction v faction zone. This has nothing to do with PvE, other than the initial comment I made about how this thread would be going if it were about dungeons vs PvP. Walls of text justifications for "but my position is legit, and everyone else is wrong", especially in an MMO, is a waste of a lot of time typing it out. Solo players aren't locked into the fortresses of each faction, right? You are free to roam as you see fit, you're just going to have to be in a group if you want to heal a group. That's the only thing that changed. Hell, it might even be a change for the better, maybe some of those groups didn't want outside help, or interference in what they're doing? Hard to say, but it's possible, I suppose, maybe even likely.

Goregrinder

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Players that work as a "team" with other players will always be rewarded for doing so....that's always been the case. People seem to have the idea that PVP in ESO is a 1v1 arena like we went back to 1999 playing Quake 3 Arena or something. ESO lets you pick how you want to roam around in Cyrodil, or how you want to queue for BG's....you have many options, and every player is presented the same options as every other player.....aka equal opportunity.

But ESO does not guarantee equality of outcome, as each choice you are allowed to make might result in a different outcome from the other choices. Like to roam around in Cyro solo? Great! I love taking my bowgank NB into Cyrdo and just roam around in stealth looking for targets to point 'n' click. But I would not exact the same end result as I would if I were to take my Necro running harbinger, joining a group, and defending keeps. Completely different playstyle choices will accrue different results.

That's working as intended. So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Just know that you won't get the same benefits roaming solo as you would joining a group with other human beings behind the keyboard. Equality of outcome is just not how this game works.

You aren't wrong in general...I just fail to see how it applies to the way ZOS rendered healers useless if they aren't in a group. 1v1 arenas, huh? If I wanted that, I'd duel by Undaunted tents. I'm playing in Cyrodiil's large and small scale battles, not Quake 3.

As for the rest...I mean, its no longer a matter of "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" for healers.

That's what its like for non-healers. Don't want to group? Carry on with your healing disadvantage. Have fun!

That's not what its like for healers. If I don't want to join a group, I literally can't do the one thing my healer used to be able to do: heal other people on my faction in the same battle.

So, uh, equal opportunity? No, I don't have that anymore. If I'm not in a group, my PVP healer is rendered more useless than a low-DPS fake tank in Vet DLC dungeon. Thanks, ZOS!


(And before I get the inevitable "but you'd be a more effective healer in a group!" response, I point you back to Goregrinder's point that "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!"

Why do players insist that everyone except for healers ought to have the freedom to be less than optimal by not running in a group, but healers saying they'd like to be able to function at all when not grouped up is just a bridge too far? Its an obvious double standard.)

Because in most other fantasy based MMORPG's that use the holy-trinity system, healers can really only do one thing...heal. In a literal sense, healing classes in other games literally can only heal, and that's about all they contribute in combat.

ESO is different, even if your build is 100% a healing build, you can still do other things as a healer that contribute to combat due to the nature of how combat and classes work within ESO. Healers can still DPS, debuff, throw dots, provide utility, etc outside of heals.

Point being: In ESO even if you're built for healing, you can still do something other than heal in PVP. In other MMORPG's, if you're playing a healing class you're pretty much stuck to only healing and maybe debuffing or utility, other than maybe Disc priest or something. I think that's an important distinction to make when it comes to balancing combat in ESO, since copying and pasting formulae from other games will simply not work well in ESO, because of their distinctive differences.

I think 50 players throwing AoE heals that don't check who is actually in your group, all healing each other is broken. There is no strategy or planning behind showing up to a keep by yourself, huddling up ontop of a giant group of allies, and spamming your AoE heals with no thought in the world. Requiring AoE healing to only hit people you are actually grouped with achieves two things:

1) Enables strategic gameplay over dumbfire gameplay, which inherently makes PVP more competitive by raising the skill ceiling up ever so slightly.

2) Requires the server to perform less checks when heals are dumbefired, since it has less targets to check.

Do I believe healers shouldn't be able to cast ANY form of healing outside of a group? Well no, I think they should still be able to cast any heal that require them to manually face or target their character and point it at another individual character..aka targeted heals should still function.

Want to heal outside of a group? No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it! Want the benefit of being able to heal MULTIPLE players at once in PVP? No worries you can do that too, just hit X,Z, or Y in zone chat and accept the invite!

Okay, so because you like the gameplay changes, you are okay with ungrouped healers being unable to do the one thing about their role that makes them actually healers: heal other players. "Oh, you can buff, debuff and do damage!" Yeah, but I can't effing heal, so what's the point?

I understand. "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro! Applies to everyone else except for healers, because you like the results. Pretty hypocritical, but hey, you like what you like.

And the suggestion to manually heal players one by one in the big fights we've pointed out in Cyrodiil?

Ludicrous! Or shall we limit ungrouped players to single-target damage too? No, that's a dumb limitation on player freedom and effectiveness when ungrouped in a large scale combat environment that would destroy 1vX and bombers as a playstyle. (And that's not even discussing how badly ESO is set up for targeted manual healing. AoE and smart heals make up the vast majority of the healer toolkit. You'd need a full healing rework to make that a legitimate suggestion. As it is, you offer crumbs and ask me to pretend that its a slice of cake.)

You didn't read everything I wrote. I said I'm fine with healers casting heals outside of a group, just not heals that can hit more than one target at once.

That's where you said: "No worries, you'll just have to manually heal other players one by one but you can still do it!" Right?

I addressed that. Its ludicrous to suggest that, in the large scale battles of Cyrodiil, that single target, manual healing is sufficient, leaving aside that ESO doesn't really support single target healing - the majority of skills are AOE or smart healing for allies. Without a full healing rework, that's simply unworkable.

And unless you are also in favor of limiting all ungrouped players to single target, manually applied damage (which is also ludicrous), then its hypocritical to apply that requirement to only one playstyle: ungrouped healers.

Damage is what causes players to die, and what makes PVP possible. Without damage there would be no PVP since PVP inherently requires players to die in order for it to function...otherwise it's not "PVP" but a button clicking contest between players. Healing doesn't really help people die, it does the opposite.

Do you think 40 players sitting ontop of each other all spamming AoE heals is balanced?