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please revert heals being group only in pvp (WE DID IT! its being rolled back!)
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"Do you think 40 players sitting ontop of each other all spamming AoE heals is balanced?"
i think you've a really strange view of pvp , but i must say you have some good event idea.6 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭superbiquette wrote: »"Do you think 40 players sitting ontop of each other all spamming AoE heals is balanced?"
i think you've a really strange view of pvp , but i must say you have some good event idea.
Thank you...so back to my question:
Would you say that 40 players sitting ontop of each other all healing each other by spamming their Area of Effect healing abilities is balanced in Cyrdodill? Or do you think that would be unbalanced.1 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Goregrinder wrote: »
Damage is what causes players to die, and what makes PVP possible. Without damage there would be no PVP since PVP inherently requires players to die in order for it to function...otherwise it's not "PVP" but a button clicking contest between players. Healing doesn't really help people die, it does the opposite.
Do you think 40 players sitting ontop of each other all spamming AoE heals is balanced?
Cyrodiil is AvAvA, your faction wins in point based systems that is about conquering objectives as keeps and resources, killing enemy players doesn't grant any point to your faction.6 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭robertthebard wrote: »It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way?
Healers are literally locked out from solo work. And yes, that includes buffing randoms.Goregrinder wrote: »So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!
How do solo healers "do [their] thang", bro, if they don't join a group? Their """"thang"""" is healing and buffing their alliance. They can't do that if they don't join a group now.
4 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭robertthebard wrote: »It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way?
Healers are literally locked out from solo work. And yes, that includes buffing randoms.Goregrinder wrote: »So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!
How do solo healers "do [their] thang", bro, if they don't join a group? Their """"thang"""" is healing and buffing their alliance. They can't do that if they don't join a group now.
If you read what I wrote, I'm for non-multi target heals being fired outside of a group, that way a solo healer can do their solo thang all day, er'day!0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭We have already been at that point. It would be only fair, then, if AoE damage abilities also work only on targets in the same group, and not on ungrouped people hanging around.
Healing is a role that is just as valid in PvP as doing damage.Edited by Varana on January 21, 2021 9:36PM5 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?3 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?0 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.0 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You guys are missing the real villain in this scenario! The respec shrine!
I dropped 14,870 gold to respec my PVP rando healer into a completely selfish proc monster.
10 minutes later I run into some old friends in PVP unexpectedly and they ask me to join a group. Now I’m in a group can’t heal them properly because I’m wearing different gear and have the wrong skill morphs.
Now do I ...
1 - Spend another 15K gold to run with a group correctly should I randomly run into them again?
or
2 - Leave things as is and avoid that group of people I truly like because I can’t help them as I normally would?
It’s expensive being a PVP magplar these days.Edited by THEDKEXPERIENCE on January 21, 2021 9:56PM8 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »superbiquette wrote: »"Do you think 40 players sitting ontop of each other all spamming AoE heals is balanced?"
i think you've a really strange view of pvp , but i must say you have some good event idea.
Thank you...so back to my question:
Would you say that 40 players sitting ontop of each other all healing each other by spamming their Area of Effect healing abilities is balanced in Cyrdodill? Or do you think that would be unbalanced.
I happen to think that in a large scale AvAvA battlefield like Cyrodiil, that an army of players all cross-healing each other should be matched by an army of players all cross-healing each other as they each work to win the battle. That ought to be balanced. In fact, that's how Cyrodiil has always been balanced, and it works fairly well. Each alliance wants an organized and numerous army. A better organized army may defeat a larger one, or you may have to commit your faction stack to win a battle, which leaves you open on another front vulnerable to attack from the third faction. Not every fight is fair, but that's par for the course in an AvAvA game.
What, you wanted to focus on only one side of the battle? Or did you want to focus on players who insist on fighting outnumbered?
In which case, let's consider the very common situation we've been talking about in this thread: ball groups vs an army of players who can cross-heal each other. 12 v 40, oh no, its so unfair!
LOL, even before the healing change, the ball groups farmed faction stacks. Why? Because even with cross-healing between larger groups of PUGs, the huge advantage conveyed on the 12-person ball group by voice comms, dedicated roles, stacked support sets, and coordinated attacks was such that it took strength in numbers (including cross-heals) to result in anything approaching a "balanced" fight. Now, we can call those benefits "the hard earned fruits of teamwork," of course, but then it makes no sense to turn around and deprive the PUGs of the fruits of their greater numbers unless guild groups want easy wins. (I like organized guild raids, but I don't like easy wins against PUGs who can't heal more than 12 players and may not even have a healer in their group.)
You know what's not particularly well balanced?
One group of 12 players in voice comms, with dedicated roles, stacked support sets, and coordinated attacks farming 12-player groups of PUGs who LFGed in zone chat, may not even have a healer in their group, and can't cross heal each other even though the battle depends on their allies surviving.Edited by VaranisArano on January 21, 2021 10:05PM9 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
No, the healing change happened shortly after Markarth last patch. You may be thinking of the various tests that ZOS did in Cyrodiil before that.
"Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/544305/details-for-aoe-testing-in-cyrodiil2 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If 40 players stacked on each other spamming aoe heals is not balanced then exactly the same has to be said if they're spamming aoe damage instead.9 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way?
Healers are literally locked out from solo work. And yes, that includes buffing randoms.Goregrinder wrote: »So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!
How do solo healers "do [their] thang", bro, if they don't join a group? Their """"thang"""" is healing and buffing their alliance. They can't do that if they don't join a group now.
If you read what I wrote, I'm for non-multi target heals being fired outside of a group, that way a solo healer can do their solo thang all day, er'day!
Question; are you also in favor of the healing rework it would take to make single-target, manual healing an effective and legitimate playstyle with more than one or two single target heals?
Or can you show me an effective single target, manual healer build with the skills we have now?
Because right now, I could throw on the Psijic skill Mend Wounds, but I'd be about as effective as a bandaid on a gaping wound if I tried to heal even a single person with just single target manual heals in a PVP fight.
Warden vine?
DK cauterize? No, that one isn't manually targeted, so nvm.
Guard has potential to be really trollish, of course. I remember lots of complaints about it during CP Battlegrounds because tank/healer duos couldn't be killed and it dragged the match out...is that gameplay you'd like to see out of solo healers?Edited by VaranisArano on January 21, 2021 10:35PM2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If 40 players stacked on each other spamming aoe heals is not balanced then exactly the same has to be said if they're spamming aoe damage instead.
1) If 40 players are spamming AoE's in an area, and enemy players are willingly standing in said AoE's, they absolutely deserve to die.
2) If players are dying left and right, then PVP is working as it is intended to in every game that has PVP....players have to die, otherwise it's not PVP.
3) Healing and damage abilities shouldn't be balanced as if they provide the same weight in combat because they don't play the same role as each other in PVP. While healing is important in PVP combat, it is not as important as being able to deal damage to players.
If it's really easy for players to survive, but really hard for players to kill each other, that's not balanced PVP. The priority is shifted in the wrong direction, putting healing above damage. But if players can kill each other easily, but not stay alive as easily, then PVP is still balanced.
"...Wait why doesn't it work the other way around? That seems one sided..."
Well yeah in order for PVP to be "balanced" it kind of has to be unbalanced in how dealing damage is balanced against survivability. Players shouldn't be able to one-shot each other with only one attack, no...never. But players being able to perma heal indefinitely would be even worse in any competitive PVP game that has healing.
Since TRUE balance can never be achieved, developers have to constantly pick the "lesser of two-evils" when designing things.0 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.0 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.
not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?
The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).Edited by QuebraRegra on January 21, 2021 11:03PM2 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »
You see, I feel like encouraging group play in an MMO is a good thing. It's not like anyone is locked out from solo work, just from healing from outside a group, maybe buffs work the same way? So yes, I find this thread hilarious. If a group really needs your heals, they could add you to their party, yes?
4 man dungeons are group centric, 4 man arenas are group centric, 12 man trials are group centric, BG's are group centric, Imperial City sewers are group centric, how about we let Cyrodiil be Alliance centric as the whole 3 banner war is built upon that premise?
The whole concept of merging PvP with siege warfare based on alliance means that it is not PvP from a purist view point, and it's not supposed to be. It's not supposed to be 100% about PvP. There are PvE elements, and there are strategic team elements, team being alliance, not group, whereby points of interest are to be fought over, and to organically, and spontaneously bring groups of people together to fight over a common objective. These groups of people are not necessarily in a proper, official group, but rather happen to be members of the same alliance in the same location at the same time fighting over the same thing.
This whole group vs group aspect to me flies in the face of the AvAvA nature of Cyrodiil, and reduces it to a type of PvP experience that can be obtained in other group v group modes that already exist in the game elsewhere. I wish ZOS would realize the difference that this AvAvA experience offers above and beyond the GvG stuff that people can enjoy in BG's or IC, and let it be what it was intended to be.9 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »superbiquette wrote: »"Do you think 40 players sitting ontop of each other all spamming AoE heals is balanced?"
i think you've a really strange view of pvp , but i must say you have some good event idea.
Thank you...so back to my question:
Would you say that 40 players sitting ontop of each other all healing each other by spamming their Area of Effect healing abilities is balanced in Cyrdodill? Or do you think that would be unbalanced.
Is 20 players doing it balanced, or 12, or 6?1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.
not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?
The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).
Yes, exactly. Healing and dealing damage shouldn't be balanced equal to each other like you are proposing they should, is my point. Players being able to deal damage to other players should be of the highest priority, with healing/survivability falling somewhere underneath. You're saying they should share the highest priority equally, I am saying they should not.....with damage being a higher priority than healing. Which means being able to cast AoE damage spells and hit more than 12 other targets, but only being able to heal those in your group is more balanced than treating them equally.
If players will each other too fast, what are you left with? You're still left with Player Versus Player, with players able to kill other players.
But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.
0 -
aetherial_heavenn✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »
________________________________________________________________snipped
But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.
So you'd agree self heals, health based heals and proc set heals all need reducing too. The problem is not healers it is DPS and worse still health tanks being unkillable due to their own OP self healing from far too many sources. Soloers in the correct build can kill players, stand in siege all while self healing.
In this thread we've laid out fixes to excessive healing: multiple ranked PvPers who've played PvP for years in Cyrodil, led pugs, led guild groups, led ball groups, played all playstyles/roles have explained why this change in practice only benefits the OP groups already, does nothing to fix performance and nothing to fix the unkillable heavy armour meta, the tower pug farming runaway speed builds, or any of the imbalance in game. It also goes completely against the whole selling point of ESO PvP in Cyrodil. It is AvAvA NOT arena, BG, or FPS type PvP.
All it does is help experienced 1vXers farm soloers unless they run the mindless skill-less armour proc meta, and it just makes ball groups/coordinated voice groups better.
Please read Varanis' and Joy's posts among many others, for numerous counters to your argument and suggestions on alternative approaches that would not have had the consequences we are seeing.
Also note: Healers didn't have instant hysterics at the patch notes, there was concern but most posters here, have now tried this out for weeks. These posts are our conclusions grounded in practical experience.
However if you zerg surf as aoe DPS, troll health tank, or farm pugs in a voice group, I can see how these changes would not bother you, or you would see them as an improvement.
Edited by aetherial_heavenn on January 22, 2021 4:32AMQuoted for truth
"In my experience, the elite ones have not been very toxic, and the toxic ones not very elite." WrathOfInnos2 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭i dont mind heals within a group only hitting the group, thats fine even if its a dumb band aid that solves nothing, like giving a musician a spoon on the titanic and being like "NAILED IT, problem solved, next!"
but i wandered into Cyro as a fresh level 10 to look at the height of the flames on that dumpster fire after not going in for around a month.
went in as a warden with a resto staff, no sets, with the 3 base skills, first two resto skills, and the heal tree ult.
i was fully aware of the group heal changes but kind of wanted to really feel it, as i have exclusively played Cyro solo since launch i wanted to throw myself into the changes.
needless to say, its garbage.
-try to regen people around you? nope.
-cast illustrious healing on people hit by siege? nope.
-enchanted growth on noob burning to death in oil? nope.
-secluded grove ult on a group getting run down by a blob? nothing.
on the flip side
blob groups
stack on crown? yup.
spam only purge on everyone? yup.
spam radiating on everyone? yup.
[snip]
EDIT:
I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!
[Edited to remove Bashing]
[snip]
The group only healing was a stupid change. Once upon a time healers could go solo/ungrouped to help people when their pvp guild wasn't active like any other player could. Now because of this change and the damage shield and healing reductions in cyrodil healers are incredibly rare and my pvp has to draw straws for who has to switch to their healer alt that day.
[Edited to remove Discussing Disciplinary Actions]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 22, 2021 2:38PM8 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
@Goregrinder I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, ie: "damage being a higher priority than healing".Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.
not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?
The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).
Yes, exactly. Healing and dealing damage shouldn't be balanced equal to each other like you are proposing they should, is my point. Players being able to deal damage to other players should be of the highest priority, with healing/survivability falling somewhere underneath. You're saying they should share the highest priority equally, I am saying they should not.....with damage being a higher priority than healing. Which means being able to cast AoE damage spells and hit more than 12 other targets, but only being able to heal those in your group is more balanced than treating them equally.
If players will each other too fast, what are you left with? You're still left with Player Versus Player, with players able to kill other players.
But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.
But,
The change to heals only affecting groups only makes a difference to that equation in the case where you have more players on each side than can fit in one group, or if players aren't grouped.
In all other cases, the healing restriction change hasn't addressed your point at all, ie:
1 X-person group vs another X-person group
1v1
etc
In all of these cases, the balance of damage vs healing hasn't been changed at all.
So if your point is that we need to shift the balance between damage and healing back in favour of damage, then this change isn't really useful is it? We still have the same issue with a potential stalemate in a 1v1, with one players damage unable to overcome the others self heals. Or an organised group unable to overcome another organised group's heals. Or an ungrouped group of players unable to overcome an actual grouped group's heals (but strangely not the reverse).
Shouldn't addressing this issue you raise point mean having a look at the relative power of all healing abilities (and/or modifiers). Otherwise it's just arbitrarily imposing the disadvantage on some players who choose to play a certain way, while others are unaffected.
[Edit: I would also point out for comparison, that there is already an arbitrary disparity between damage and healing AoE abilities - being that (as far as I am aware), damage AoEs are no longer subject to AoE caps, but healing AoEs are. So in a straight AoE war damage can already have more effect than heals (assuming numbers are similar). Its entirely possible that this is not enough though. But at least this arbitrary mechanic affects all players equally, regardless of their chosen playstyle, grouped, or ungrouped status.]
Edited by ExistingRug61 on January 22, 2021 12:21AM4 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »If 40 players stacked on each other spamming aoe heals is not balanced then exactly the same has to be said if they're spamming aoe damage instead.
1) If 40 players are spamming AoE's in an area, and enemy players are willingly standing in said AoE's, they absolutely deserve to die.
2) If players are dying left and right, then PVP is working as it is intended to in every game that has PVP....players have to die, otherwise it's not PVP.
3) Healing and damage abilities shouldn't be balanced as if they provide the same weight in combat because they don't play the same role as each other in PVP. While healing is important in PVP combat, it is not as important as being able to deal damage to players.
If it's really easy for players to survive, but really hard for players to kill each other, that's not balanced PVP. The priority is shifted in the wrong direction, putting healing above damage. But if players can kill each other easily, but not stay alive as easily, then PVP is still balanced.
"...Wait why doesn't it work the other way around? That seems one sided..."
Well yeah in order for PVP to be "balanced" it kind of has to be unbalanced in how dealing damage is balanced against survivability. Players shouldn't be able to one-shot each other with only one attack, no...never. But players being able to perma heal indefinitely would be even worse in any competitive PVP game that has healing.
Since TRUE balance can never be achieved, developers have to constantly pick the "lesser of two-evils" when designing things.
Okay I just think you're wrong and I genuinely can't be bothered engaging with someone who clearly thinks the way ball groups play is totally balanced and fine but healers actually being able to heal people in their alliance even if they're not grouped with them isn't, so have a nice day/night, I guess.7 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
@Goregrinder I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, ie: "damage being a higher priority than healing".Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.
not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?
The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).
Yes, exactly. Healing and dealing damage shouldn't be balanced equal to each other like you are proposing they should, is my point. Players being able to deal damage to other players should be of the highest priority, with healing/survivability falling somewhere underneath. You're saying they should share the highest priority equally, I am saying they should not.....with damage being a higher priority than healing. Which means being able to cast AoE damage spells and hit more than 12 other targets, but only being able to heal those in your group is more balanced than treating them equally.
If players will each other too fast, what are you left with? You're still left with Player Versus Player, with players able to kill other players.
But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.
But,
The change to heals only affecting groups only makes a difference to that equation in the case where you have more players on each side than can fit in one group, or if players aren't grouped.
In all other cases, the healing restriction change hasn't addressed your point at all, ie:
1 X-person group vs another X-person ball group
1v1
etc
In all of these cases, the balance of damage vs healing hasn't been changed at all.
So if your point is that we need to shift the balance between damage and healing back in favour of damage, then this change isn't really useful is it? We still have the same issue with a potential stalemate in a 1v1, with one players damage unable to overcome the others self heals. Or an organised group unable to overcome another organised group's heals. Or an ungrouped group of players unable to overcome an actual grouped group's heals (but strangely not the reverse).
Shouldn't addressing this issue you raise point mean having a look at the relative power of all healing abilities (and/or modifiers). Otherwise it's just arbitrarily imposing the disadvantage on some players who choose to play a certain way, while others are unaffected.
With heals being restricted to group members only, and a group size now consisting of only 12 players now....that means instead of 30 or 40 players being able to all heal each other, now only up to 12 players can heal each other in Cyrodiil, and they all have to be grouped....no more out of group dumbfire heals. That means less potential heals per player, which means more potential incoming damage per player, which means the likely hood of players dying increased rather than decreased, which is good. Are you saying that's not actually the case?0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
@Goregrinder I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, ie: "damage being a higher priority than healing".Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.
not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?
The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).
Yes, exactly. Healing and dealing damage shouldn't be balanced equal to each other like you are proposing they should, is my point. Players being able to deal damage to other players should be of the highest priority, with healing/survivability falling somewhere underneath. You're saying they should share the highest priority equally, I am saying they should not.....with damage being a higher priority than healing. Which means being able to cast AoE damage spells and hit more than 12 other targets, but only being able to heal those in your group is more balanced than treating them equally.
If players will each other too fast, what are you left with? You're still left with Player Versus Player, with players able to kill other players.
But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.
But,
The change to heals only affecting groups only makes a difference to that equation in the case where you have more players on each side than can fit in one group, or if players aren't grouped.
In all other cases, the healing restriction change hasn't addressed your point at all, ie:
1 X-person group vs another X-person ball group
1v1
etc
In all of these cases, the balance of damage vs healing hasn't been changed at all.
So if your point is that we need to shift the balance between damage and healing back in favour of damage, then this change isn't really useful is it? We still have the same issue with a potential stalemate in a 1v1, with one players damage unable to overcome the others self heals. Or an organised group unable to overcome another organised group's heals. Or an ungrouped group of players unable to overcome an actual grouped group's heals (but strangely not the reverse).
Shouldn't addressing this issue you raise point mean having a look at the relative power of all healing abilities (and/or modifiers). Otherwise it's just arbitrarily imposing the disadvantage on some players who choose to play a certain way, while others are unaffected.
With heals being restricted to group members only, and a group size now consisting of only 12 players now....that means instead of 30 or 40 players being able to all heal each other, now only up to 12 players can heal each other in Cyrodiil, and they all have to be grouped....no more out of group dumbfire heals. That means less potential heals per player, which means more potential incoming damage per player, which means the likely hood of players dying increased rather than decreased, which is good. Are you saying that's not actually the case?
No, I don't disagree that what you say is correct - it has reduced the healing available in that situation, and that it means players may die more easily. In that situation. (30 or 40 players)
Rather, what I am saying is that in almost any other situation, nothing has changed.
ie:
if you only have one 12 person group fighting another 12 person group. No change, same amount of healing as before
if you have a 1v1. No change, same amount of healing as before.
So if your premise is that we need more damage vs healing, why don't we ALSO need it in these scenarios?
In which case, shouldn't you be advocating for a change that affects everyone, rather than just an arbitrary set of players who happen to play a certain way?Edited by ExistingRug61 on January 22, 2021 12:41AM2 -
Ostonoha✭✭✭I mean you can actually heal people outside of your group. You just have to buy the warden and spam the health frost heal, or buy the necro and use the ghost as they will heal people outside of your group. Or buy the pijic skill and use that heal.0
-
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
@Goregrinder I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, ie: "damage being a higher priority than healing".Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »QuebraRegra wrote: »none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.
Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?
The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?
yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.
Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.
when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....
I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.
not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?
The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).
Yes, exactly. Healing and dealing damage shouldn't be balanced equal to each other like you are proposing they should, is my point. Players being able to deal damage to other players should be of the highest priority, with healing/survivability falling somewhere underneath. You're saying they should share the highest priority equally, I am saying they should not.....with damage being a higher priority than healing. Which means being able to cast AoE damage spells and hit more than 12 other targets, but only being able to heal those in your group is more balanced than treating them equally.
If players will each other too fast, what are you left with? You're still left with Player Versus Player, with players able to kill other players.
But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.
But,
The change to heals only affecting groups only makes a difference to that equation in the case where you have more players on each side than can fit in one group, or if players aren't grouped.
In all other cases, the healing restriction change hasn't addressed your point at all, ie:
1 X-person group vs another X-person ball group
1v1
etc
In all of these cases, the balance of damage vs healing hasn't been changed at all.
So if your point is that we need to shift the balance between damage and healing back in favour of damage, then this change isn't really useful is it? We still have the same issue with a potential stalemate in a 1v1, with one players damage unable to overcome the others self heals. Or an organised group unable to overcome another organised group's heals. Or an ungrouped group of players unable to overcome an actual grouped group's heals (but strangely not the reverse).
Shouldn't addressing this issue you raise point mean having a look at the relative power of all healing abilities (and/or modifiers). Otherwise it's just arbitrarily imposing the disadvantage on some players who choose to play a certain way, while others are unaffected.
With heals being restricted to group members only, and a group size now consisting of only 12 players now....that means instead of 30 or 40 players being able to all heal each other, now only up to 12 players can heal each other in Cyrodiil, and they all have to be grouped....no more out of group dumbfire heals. That means less potential heals per player, which means more potential incoming damage per player, which means the likely hood of players dying increased rather than decreased, which is good. Are you saying that's not actually the case?
No, I don't disagree that what you say is correct - it has reduced the healing available in that situation, and that it means players may die more easily. In that situation. (30 or 40 players)
Rather, what I am saying is that in almost any other situation, nothing has changed.
ie:
if you only have one 12 person group fighting another 12 person group. No change, same amount of healing as before
if you have a 1v1. No change, same amount of healing as before.
So if your premise is that we need more damage vs healing, why don't we ALSO need it in these scenarios?
In which case, shouldn't you be advocating for a change that affects everyone, rather than just an arbitrary set of players who happen to play a certain way?
So if in every other situation nothing has changed, but in one situation something has changed, then I see that at least progress is being made. Baby steps is better than no steps at all.0