please revert heals being group only in pvp (WE DID IT! its being rolled back!)

Reaper_00

There are a lot of ways that the healing problem could have been fixed without unfairly disadvantaging just healers. Limiting the number of HOTs that a player was allowed to be affected by at any one time for instance or introducing diminishing returns on healing. But a lot of the other ways to fix it would have affected everyone and not just healers, so no one wants to really talk about those. Because why should I have to change my way of playing to fix a problem when I can just get someone else to change theirs instead?

Dyngrin

I'm going to reserve any appreciation to ZOS for rolling back such an ill conceived change once healing is reverted back to how it has worked for years in Live/Production. There are Lessons Learned here for ZOS and I will post my version of them once reverted.

Also, I mostly play un-grouped (but do occasionally group) because I go AFK a lot. My alliance/faction IS MY GROUP, and my play style could hardly be described as "solo."

--Dyn

FENGRUSH

Wing wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

It's time to rise up and make a 60bman unkillable wall of heals. We will show them behavioral change!

@FENGRUSH

you PvP enough and know darn well that being able to kill large numbers has less to do with the actual numbers and more so on specific targeted skills and mechanics.

i get the idea behind not wanting one person to kill a zerg.
and i get that zergs need to be toned down.

not allowing random solos to heal each other was not the answer and you know it, nor are those players the problem. in fact once again you know that killing those players is rather easy.

if AoE healing is the problem, it needs to be a targeted change (we both know what skill)
and if mass purge is over enabling ball groups, once again, targeted change.

Yea I mean, they tried to do behavioral change by hitting one specific point of healing, rather than reworking on multiple fronts with a real vision I feel like. Flipping changes and reverting things back is more or less aimless goals.

The majority will obviously prefer this change. What was in place by itself wasnt great. But I dont think things are going in a direction that'll make things better.

Wing

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

It's time to rise up and make a 60bman unkillable wall of heals. We will show them behavioral change!

@FENGRUSH

you PvP enough and know darn well that being able to kill large numbers has less to do with the actual numbers and more so on specific targeted skills and mechanics.

i get the idea behind not wanting one person to kill a zerg.
and i get that zergs need to be toned down.

not allowing random solos to heal each other was not the answer and you know it, nor are those players the problem. in fact once again you know that killing those players is rather easy.

if AoE healing is the problem, it needs to be a targeted change (we both know what skill)
and if mass purge is over enabling ball groups, once again, targeted change.

Yea I mean, they tried to do behavioral change by hitting one specific point of healing, rather than reworking on multiple fronts with a real vision I feel like. Flipping changes and reverting things back is more or less aimless goals.

The majority will obviously prefer this change. What was in place by itself wasnt great. But I dont think things are going in a direction that'll make things better.

i was trying to find the specific "behavioral change" quote because i believe that was targeted at all changes made and not just alliance healing. that would include smaller groups as well in that quote which as we know is not being rolled back.

i think that is the main change they were happy with, ball groups being 12 and not 24 man, as you have stated when you limit the group size you have to actually think about what to bring as far as players and roles is concerned.

i think the aimless vision is exacerbated by the fact that that majority of pvp changes done are to try and mess with performance (a glaring issue to be sure) and not done with an end goal pvp balance point in mind.

i feel like a few devs could sit and make tweaks to numbers and patch them in over the course of a month if they really wanted to do something with pvp.
-purge tweaks? done
-radiating regen tweaks? bam done
-oh this set is oppressively? bam tweaked
-etc.

from what i heard on the stream it sounds like thats impossible though, sounds like Wheeler is at the mercy of other departments and pvp changes that would otherwise be simple are just drown in a bog of other people in other departments. as an example as HUGE as world of warcraft is the combat team was 2 guys for a silly amount of time. everyone thinks that DK has its own guy, and sorc has its own guy, and classes have their own team. nah its like 2 guys already overloaded with other tasks. i feel like sorcs crystal weapon was literally a passion project by one guy that wanted to squeeze it in.


but who knows, maybe with the new CP system being "done" this update we can get a few of those people to look at pvp.

mikikatze

So, I did not read this whole thread... came here to rage how exhausting it is having to group up as a healer in this event - but some people now mentioned they will reverse this change? Is there a source for that, and - more importantly - a time line?

I'm only a casual player in PVP, but always a healer, and that is really annoying this event. I never play solo (would make no sense as a healer), but I don't want to JOIN a group if I can just FOLLOW one, since I have to be shortly, but suddenly afk a lot during my play time.

ectoplasmicninja

mikikatze wrote: »

Is there a source for that, and - more importantly - a time line?

In another thread elsewhere on the forum Gina confirmed it will be reversed sometime later this month. Not during Midyear Mayhem from the looks of it though.

Wow

Has it been reverted yet? Or is it still group only heal, and the revert is only planned sometimes in the future when they feel like it?

Asking it because I'm thinking of making a healer character for cyrodiil

Tommy_The_Gun

Wow wrote: »

Has it been reverted yet? Or is it still group only heal, and the revert is only planned sometimes in the future when they feel like it?

Asking it because I'm thinking of making a healer character for cyrodiil

Yes, cross healing is reverted. You can now heal group & solo players and vice-versa.

But something tells me that now we will have topics that are a "mirror" of this topic.

Currently we have no proc set tests in Cyro and performance did not improved much. Some people in Cyro Zone chat even blame cross-healing return for it (lol).

Personally I think that issue is different. When cross healing was disabled, population in Cyro dwindled. There was almost no solo players around. It gotten to a point that people who play in a group started to complaining that all they fight are other groups (lol_2) And performance did not improved much. ZOS even said that in twitch stream and somwhere here, on forums:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

When this test begins on February 15, we will also be reverting a prior test where abilities cast on allies were restricted to group targets only. This adjustment gave no appreciable gains towards performance improvements, so this restriction will be removed until further notice and abilities which target/can be triggered by players outside of your group will once again function as they do outside of Cyrodiil.

My point is: now we have more people in Cyro as we have double AP and solo players are back. I would not be surprised if performance issues (that in theory should go up, since no proc sets = less server checks, but improvement is marginal) is because we have way larger queues.

Also, if you want to make a healer build, be advised that only "raw stat" gear sets work in Cyro. Any set that has a condition check will not have its 5pcs bonus (or 2pcs in case of monster set or 1 in case of mythic).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
List of sets that work:

- Amber Plasm
- Armor of the Trainee
- Beekeeper’s Gear
- Crafty Alfiq
- Draugr Hulk
- Endurance
- Fortified Brass
- Grace of the Ancients
- Hunding’s Rage
- Impregnable Armor
- Law of Julianos
- Leviathan
- Mother’s Sorrow
- Plague Doctor
- Shacklebreaker
- Spinner’s Garments
- Spriggan’s Thorns
- Willpower
- Agility

Jaraal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I would not be surprised if performance issues (that in theory should go up, since no proc sets = less server checks, but improvement is marginal) is because we have way larger queues.

But the performance is the same (or worse) in pop-locked no proc Cyro as it was in pop-locked proc enabled Cyro.

My personal opinion is that battles are taking longer, since people are not dying as fast. Even resource capturing is taking longer, because the NPC guards can't be burned down as fast. So there's less down time for the server to stay caught up.

Also, in my case, I've had to slot and stack more damage skills in place of utility skills to keep up. Running more robust skill rotations will still produce a lot of calculations. And there are so many other calculations going on besides procs (position checks, CP checks, racial checks, passive checks, synergy checks, radius checks, range checks, DOT checks, heal checks, shield checks, health, magicka, stamina checks, resistance checks, weakness to skills checks, etc, etc) that only removing one single type of check (gear procs) isn't likely to have the huge impact on performance that many players expect.

Tying in with that is the fact that there are a lot of old school high APM players coming back to test out the skill based play, combined with a lot of the proc carry crew taking the next few weeks off. So the queue is more weighted with players who are more likely to produce maximum calculations than normal.

Wing

cross healing complaint =/= radiating regen complaint.


obviously, i support cross healing, this was my thread after all.


however, long time PvP'ers know that there are all of 2-3 skills / effects that cause the majority of the lag.

Radiating Regen this skill puts HoT's on multiple players, these HoT's can also stack as they are sourced from individuals and lasting 10sec. a single raid of 12 people spamming RR (and they do) has dozens of unique HoT's per person ticking every second.

Purge this skill is more limited to ball groups as only they can afford to have dedicated purge bots, players whose sole purpose is to press this skill over and over and "stack on clown". this has no target cap, an 18m aoe, and a morph that heals % hp. this is a massive contributor to lag and the oppressively nature of ball groups that have a purge monkey.

Echoing Vigor not as used as RR but still an uncapped 15m radius 10 sec duration HoT that stacks with RR and functions the same way, multiple people stack multiple HoT's that all require individual calculations.


think of one group and all those HoT calculations, 10 sec duration per, constantly refreshed.

if not reworked to solo only, ESO needs to adopt a FF14 style of HoT management like Regen.

where various sourced heals all provide the same static "regen" that takes the roll of a HoT effect, this exists in the game already with skills like the minor lifesteal buff, were it is a static effect and value placed on a person and limited to one unique effect.

if all HoT effects were "regen" that provided a set amount of healing over 10 seconds, and was limited to only one instance of the buff per person (as is the case now with any major / minor buff) we would see calculations drop from dozens of HoT's per individual to only 1

going further a major / minor system could be applied to various sources of regen, with skills like vigor and radiating regen providing minor regen, and ults providing major regen.

providing strategic use of a large HoT that still only results in at most 2 calculations per person with values controlled by the devs, rather then the dozens of HoT's of various values on everyone all the time.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler



this roundabout leads to my support of cross healing, you do not destroy a basic function of combat and an entire archetype of play due to 2-3 skills being a problem, you surgically fix the problem.

VaranisArano

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Purge capped at six targets?

Wing

VaranisArano wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Purge capped at six targets?

just says yourself and group, it it is capped its unlisted as far as i can tell, but it could be 6, the quick google search said 6 back in 2017 but i honestly cannot keep track of when they added aoe caps and what was removed / kept.

renne

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

Has it been reverted yet? Or is it still group only heal, and the revert is only planned sometimes in the future when they feel like it?

Asking it because I'm thinking of making a healer character for cyrodiil

Yes, cross healing is reverted. You can now heal group & solo players and vice-versa.

But something tells me that now we will have topics that are a "mirror" of this topic.

Currently we have no proc set tests in Cyro and performance did not improved much. Some people in Cyro Zone chat even blame cross-healing return for it (lol).

Personally I think that issue is different. When cross healing was disabled, population in Cyro dwindled. There was almost no solo players around. It gotten to a point that people who play in a group started to complaining that all they fight are other groups (lol_2) And performance did not improved much. ZOS even said that in twitch stream and somwhere here, on forums:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

When this test begins on February 15, we will also be reverting a prior test where abilities cast on allies were restricted to group targets only. This adjustment gave no appreciable gains towards performance improvements, so this restriction will be removed until further notice and abilities which target/can be triggered by players outside of your group will once again function as they do outside of Cyrodiil.

My point is: now we have more people in Cyro as we have double AP and solo players are back. I would not be surprised if performance issues (that in theory should go up, since no proc sets = less server checks, but improvement is marginal) is because we have way larger queues.

Also, if you want to make a healer build, be advised that only "raw stat" gear sets work in Cyro. Any set that has a condition check will not have its 5pcs bonus (or 2pcs in case of monster set or 1 in case of mythic).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
List of sets that work:

- Amber Plasm
- Armor of the Trainee
- Beekeeper’s Gear
- Crafty Alfiq
- Draugr Hulk
- Endurance
- Fortified Brass
- Grace of the Ancients
- Hunding’s Rage
- Impregnable Armor
- Law of Julianos
- Leviathan
- Mother’s Sorrow
- Plague Doctor
- Shacklebreaker
- Spinner’s Garments
- Spriggan’s Thorns
- Willpower
- Agility

I'm pretty sure it's still only back on PC and the rest is only relevant for PC. Console is still waiting for it to be back and doesn't have any of the tests or double AP.