please revert heals being group only in pvp (WE DID IT! its being rolled back!)

Eedat

Wing wrote: »

KitLightning wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live AS A SOLO PLAYER, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!

Fixed!

true, if anything it might be cathartic to see the devs also getting run down by ball groups. [/

Daffen wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Umm, you do realize that if 1 person faced off against a platoon in real life that they would have no chance right? Why do you think it should be different in game? Numbers matter in war.

No, OP has good points here....it really needs to be reverted since it empowers organized groups and nerfs everyone else who just wants to skirt around large conflicts. As for server performance...that is another issue entirely.

because it is a game? A game where skill actually matters. There have been real life situations where 1 man has killed 8 people with only a pistol with 8 bullets (Thomas Baker, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Baker_(Medal_of_Honor_recipient) Another example is CS:GO a skill based and tactical FPS shooter, even against professional players, people have managed to clutch a round in a 1v5 because they played better.

So why shouldnt we be able to kill 8 less experienced players alone when we are clearly way more expierenced and skilled than them. However this is almost impossible in this pvp meta because everyone is stacking proc sets and you die from armor sets, not players, but armor sets. There is no skill in using 1 skill and proccing 3 dots on 1 person and its really boring to fight with/against. Now imagine 3 players with full proc set damage trying to kill you, you cant do anything other than delay the death you will have. I miss the good old times when people had to use skills to kill people and had to follow them closely to kill them instead of just spamming 3 skills to proc them to death.

Because one person taking on and beating 8 people at the same exact time is a rare exception, not a norm. In most other games that require skill, 'going in 1v5' is equivalent to intentionally feeding lol. Winning a 1v5 fight is exceptionally rare and in most cases it's actually the enemy trickling in 1 or two at a time, not actually fighting all 5 at once. Thats actually the trick to fighting multiple enemies is to force them to file in one at a time and not all at once. A scenario where you are focused by 8 people at once and still beat them is absolutely insane.

danno8

Narvuntien wrote: »

Cryodil is 12 man PVP content.

If you want to solo... duel.

If you are a solo player in Cryodil just type lfg in group chat, if no group picks you up the next thing is to collect a PUG group from other people spamming lfg in chat.

I have had some of my best pvp running pug groups.

If that were truly the case, then queuing up for Cyro should automatically place you in a group, a la group finder.

But it doesn't, because Cyro has always been 1-1000 man PvP content.

The change to healing being group only is possibly the worst change the devs made for PvP so far. I include the terrible proc set buffs in that list. The healing change has kept me out of PvP for months now, and it is unlikely I will ever go back.

SydneyGrey

They ruined healing in PvP. I think it was a bad mistake for them to do it.

I stopped playing PvP after they made that change. Maybe I'll try PvPing again later at Midyear Mayhem, but it killed a lot of my desire to do it.

Charon_on_Vacation

nobody realized, when they stated "we like the behaviour change in cyrodiil" as the reason, they meant the fact that less people were playing with those changes, so less people would be complaining about pvp for the next year or so.

YandereGirlfriend

I see many posts bashing ball groups as like an illegitimate style of play or something, which I find very odd.

Putting together an effective ball group composition is a theory-crafting and general game mechanics challenge equal to, at the very least, optimizing for a trial in a high-end PvE guild.

Yet nobody denigrates skilled trials groups for pushing scores on the exact same content that random Craglorn groups struggle to barely clear.

The exact same dynamic exists between ball groups and the PUGs in Cyrodiil, except in that case it's PvP, where egos are on the line. In Cyrodiil, players tend to get salty when they're wiped and need to find easy explanations to explain why they died, whether they are grounded in reality... or not.

Now, I tend to think that 12-person groups are amazing and I personally agree with the healing changes. But I can empathize with solo PvP healers who feel as though they have been robbed of their playstyle. There is likely a better solution to the problem than the current one but I do also think that it would be a mistake to simply revert back to how it used to be.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I see many posts bashing ball groups as like an illegitimate style of play or something, which I find very odd.

Putting together an effective ball group composition is a theory-crafting and general game mechanics challenge equal to, at the very least, optimizing for a trial in a high-end PvE guild.

Yet nobody denigrates skilled trials groups for pushing scores on the exact same content that random Craglorn groups struggle to barely clear.

The exact same dynamic exists between ball groups and the PUGs in Cyrodiil, except in that case it's PvP, where egos are on the line. In Cyrodiil, players tend to get salty when they're wiped and need to find easy explanations to explain why they died, whether they are grounded in reality... or not.

Now, I tend to think that 12-person groups are amazing and I personally agree with the healing changes. But I can empathize with solo PvP healers who feel as though they have been robbed of their playstyle. There is likely a better solution to the problem than the current one but I do also think that it would be a mistake to simply revert back to how it used to be.

they dont bash them because of it being an illegitimate style, there is more to it than that, ie: sportsmanship, alot of ball groups chase down 1 player at a time, also some ball groups, pump out 400,000 plus dps in pvp, which is suspect, as this translates to 800,000 dps in pve, since one of the buff/debuffs in pvp is skills do 50% less damage

VaranisArano

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I see many posts bashing ball groups as like an illegitimate style of play or something, which I find very odd.

Putting together an effective ball group composition is a theory-crafting and general game mechanics challenge equal to, at the very least, optimizing for a trial in a high-end PvE guild.

Yet nobody denigrates skilled trials groups for pushing scores on the exact same content that random Craglorn groups struggle to barely clear.

The exact same dynamic exists between ball groups and the PUGs in Cyrodiil, except in that case it's PvP, where egos are on the line. In Cyrodiil, players tend to get salty when they're wiped and need to find easy explanations to explain why they died, whether they are grounded in reality... or not.

Now, I tend to think that 12-person groups are amazing and I personally agree with the healing changes. But I can empathize with solo PvP healers who feel as though they have been robbed of their playstyle. There is likely a better solution to the problem than the current one but I do also think that it would be a mistake to simply revert back to how it used to be.

Its not an illegitimate playstyle. I play in the guild raid and I enjoy playing as a tight, organized team fighting for my faction.

But as someone who plays in a similar fashion to a ball group, I've got a pretty good idea of just how much we outclassed PUG raids before the healing changes. Ball groups already have the benefit of voice comms, a good Crown, dedicated roles, stacked support sets, and teammates who can stick together. Guild raids were already powerful enough to dominate the campaigns update after update. PUGs and, often enough, disorganized faction stacks were simply outclassed by a good guild raid or ball group.

What I object to is ZOS making ball groups even more powerful. They - we, to some extent - don't need the help. Right now, 12-man guild groups are fighting opponents who's healing, which was already lower, got severely nerfed. They are fighting even smaller groups who are even less coordinated than they used to be because there's less players in a group.


With the healing changes, ZOS treats all 12-man groups the same.

12-man group of randoms picked up with LFG in zone chat
VS
12-man guild group with voice comms, dedicated healers, specific roles, and stacked support sets who can move and drop their ultimate on command

Yeah, that really looks like an equal fight to me!

We've seen the problems that happen when ZOS makes it so that ball groups are the only ones with access to something that players need. We've also seen ZOS revert or adjust those changes as needed.
ZOS buffed siege in Summerset, so guild raids were the only people with dedicated healers that could stand up under heavy siege fire. PUGs got slaughtered. ZOS reverted the changes.
ZOS nerfed all sources of speed in Cyrodiil except for Rapids, leaving guild raids with their "Rapids spammer" dedicated role as the fastest players. ZOS readjusted speed and Rapids the next patch.

So I hope that ZOS didn't actually intend to create the predictable "ball group farming extravaganza" that's resulted from reducing the group size and healing of disorganized PUGs who really do need the advantage in numbers if they have a hope of defeating an organized guild raid. Even if that was the "behavioral change" they liked, I'm hopeful they'll revert some of the massive disadvantages they handed the already weaker PUGs.


I like playing in an organized guild raid. But I'd prefer to win because we're good at that playstyle, not because our less organized but more numerous foes got cut up into 12 man groups who can't heal each other. That's ZOS serving up victory on a silver platter and it doesn't feel great.

Ranger209

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I see many posts bashing ball groups as like an illegitimate style of play or something, which I find very odd.

Putting together an effective ball group composition is a theory-crafting and general game mechanics challenge equal to, at the very least, optimizing for a trial in a high-end PvE guild.

Yet nobody denigrates skilled trials groups for pushing scores on the exact same content that random Craglorn groups struggle to barely clear.

The exact same dynamic exists between ball groups and the PUGs in Cyrodiil, except in that case it's PvP, where egos are on the line. In Cyrodiil, players tend to get salty when they're wiped and need to find easy explanations to explain why they died, whether they are grounded in reality... or not.

Now, I tend to think that 12-person groups are amazing and I personally agree with the healing changes. But I can empathize with solo PvP healers who feel as though they have been robbed of their playstyle. There is likely a better solution to the problem than the current one but I do also think that it would be a mistake to simply revert back to how it used to be.

Problem and difference is that in one scenario you are farming AI, and in the other you are farming paying customers. In scenario one this is no problem, Ai does not care. In scenario two the paying customers quit, when they feel there is no chance that they can defeat their opponent, or die 10 times to every victory. When frustration eclipses the fun factor to a certain point people just quit coming. It's how PvP in games dies. The fewer people that find it fun, the faster it dies. Whether it is performance, or crap mechanics, or any other reason that makes the experience frustrating rather than fun removes people from the equation. It's more than just egos on the line, it's cold hard cash.

Joy_Division

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I see many posts bashing ball groups as like an illegitimate style of play or something, which I find very odd.

Putting together an effective ball group composition is a theory-crafting and general game mechanics challenge equal to, at the very least, optimizing for a trial in a high-end PvE guild.

Yet nobody denigrates skilled trials groups for pushing scores on the exact same content that random Craglorn groups struggle to barely clear.

The exact same dynamic exists between ball groups and the PUGs in Cyrodiil, except in that case it's PvP, where egos are on the line. In Cyrodiil, players tend to get salty when they're wiped and need to find easy explanations to explain why they died, whether they are grounded in reality... or not.

Now, I tend to think that 12-person groups are amazing and I personally agree with the healing changes. But I can empathize with solo PvP healers who feel as though they have been robbed of their playstyle. There is likely a better solution to the problem than the current one but I do also think that it would be a mistake to simply revert back to how it used to be.

If the bosses could post on the Forums, they would denigrate Trials groups. Heck, even though they can't, when these optimized trial groups consist of all NB DPS or all Necro DPS because ZOS refuses to have actual class identity and class differences, there is much ridicule thrown around, some of it even coming from said Trial groups.

As of this patch, I do feel some of the ridicule thrown on organized groups is deserved because they are now playing with a rules advantage over the players they farm (and that's what most of them are interested in doing, rather than playing objectives) when their playstyle was already conspicuously strong given other ZOS's questionable decisions (reliance on very strong and easy to apply radiating regen, how easy it is for groups to cleanse debuffs, continued existence of proximity det, ironically a skill meant to be used against them, harmony bug, etc.) all make it super frustrating to fight against them. With all this, it makes the self serving posts from some of these players saying, "yeah, these changes are good for the game and preferable to what was before" tough to take. Put that on top of how ZOS has completely deprived many of how they have been playing for years (and I'll even count the PuG wranglers who ran with 24 because 12 person PuG groups are pretty much useless), and there's going to be a lot of blowback, irrespective of the aesthetic of an entire group being super effective when the primary tactic is running a conga line.

And this comes from someone who spends 90% of their time on ESO in said organized group.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Daffen wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Umm, you do realize that if 1 person faced off against a platoon in real life that they would have no chance right? Why do you think it should be different in game? Numbers matter in war.

No, OP has good points here....it really needs to be reverted since it empowers organized groups and nerfs everyone else who just wants to skirt around large conflicts. As for server performance...that is another issue entirely.

because it is a game? A game where skill actually matters. There have been real life situations where 1 man has killed 8 people with only a pistol with 8 bullets (Thomas Baker, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Baker_(Medal_of_Honor_recipient) Another example is CS:GO a skill based and tactical FPS shooter, even against professional players, people have managed to clutch a round in a 1v5 because they played better.

So why shouldnt we be able to kill 8 less experienced players alone when we are clearly way more expierenced and skilled than them. However this is almost impossible in this pvp meta because everyone is stacking proc sets and you die from armor sets, not players, but armor sets. There is no skill in using 1 skill and proccing 3 dots on 1 person and its really boring to fight with/against. Now imagine 3 players with full proc set damage trying to kill you, you cant do anything other than delay the death you will have. I miss the good old times when people had to use skills to kill people and had to follow them closely to kill them instead of just spamming 3 skills to proc them to death.

There would be 3 and only one of me they should have triple the chance of wining than i do
Simple math

Faded

Joy_Division wrote: »

Put that on top of how ZOS has completely deprived many of how they have been playing for years (and I'll even count the PuG wranglers who ran with 24 because 12 person PuG groups are pretty much useless), and there's going to be a lot of blowback, irrespective of the aesthetic of an entire group being super effective when the primary tactic is running a conga line.

Maybe that's why the happydancing about the randoms getting kicked in the *** with the "healing change" comes so naturally to some of them. 🤔

Jaraal

Joy_Division wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

@Thrusts-His-Spear

So, I haven’t been in cyrodil for a couple months but I hear with the proc set groups are still unkillable despite the healer changes?

They are even stronger than they were before since they still can heal each other, but many of the players they farm cannot.

This is absolutely the truth. Ball groups are feasting on collections of solo players who can't help each other now. And PUG leaders aren't inviting unknowns because the smaller group size forces them to only add known PvPers they know can function efficiently to succeed.

But ZOS says they like these behaviors. Lag and disconnects are worse than ever, so it can't be performance related. So welcome to the new 12v12v12 ball group battleground meta. Solo players and large learning groups not welcome.

Goregrinder

ESO supports different playstyles and provides players with choices on how they want to play the game. With that, there will be different rewards or incentives to choose one playstyle over another. Some people love playing solo, others love being grouped. One of the rewards or incentives of being groups is that your heals and theirs all heal everyone within your group. Otherwise you have like 50 players who don't even have to be grouped, all AoE healing each other [snip]

The choice we're presented with is whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. The choice is 100% yours.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

ESO supports different playstyles and provides players with choices on how they want to play the game. With that, there will be different rewards or incentives to choose one playstyle over another. Some people love playing solo, others love being grouped. One of the rewards or incentives of being groups is that your heals and theirs all heal everyone within your group. Otherwise you have like 50 players who don't even have to be grouped, all AoE healing each other [snip]

The choice we're presented with is whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. The choice is 100% yours.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

Well, aside from those healers who didn't want to be forced into a group to be able to heal [snip]

And no, its not a matter of having our cake (cross-group healing) and eating it too (being able to heal without joining a specific group.)

Its a matter of whether or not we'll be able to play like we always used to be able to in Cyrodiil, where everyone on our faction can heal and be healed by all nearby allies in the same fight, formally grouped or not.

[snip]

[Edited to remove reference to removed content]

Jaraal

Wing wrote: »

KitLightning wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

I want to see twitch streams of ESO devs playing pvp, stream it! show us you all playing it live AS A SOLO PLAYER, and then look us in the eye (through the camera) and explain!

Fixed!

true, if anything it might be cathartic to see the devs also getting run down by ball groups.

Or spending most of their time unsuccessfully typing "LFG" in zone chat, while running from said ball groups.

Goregrinder

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

ESO supports different playstyles and provides players with choices on how they want to play the game. With that, there will be different rewards or incentives to choose one playstyle over another. Some people love playing solo, others love being grouped. One of the rewards or incentives of being groups is that your heals and theirs all heal everyone within your group. Otherwise you have like 50 players who don't even have to be grouped, all AoE healing each other [snip]

The choice we're presented with is whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. The choice is 100% yours.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

Well, aside from those healers who didn't want to be forced into a group to be able to heal [snip]

And no, its not a matter of having our cake (cross-group healing) and eating it too (being able to heal without joining a specific group.)

Its a matter of whether or not we'll be able to play like we always used to be able to in Cyrodiil, where everyone on our faction can heal and be healed by all nearby allies in the same fight, formally grouped or not.

[snip]

There are many things in life that we used to do because at the time they either worked well or were the only way to do something. Things change, and the way we "used" to play wasn't working anymore with the current level of power creep. The only way PVP works is if players die, which includes groups. Now players are incentivized to work as a team, and be efficient with how they play...more tactical if you will. Rather than spam AoE heals to keep 30 people up.

renne

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

ESO supports different playstyles and provides players with choices on how they want to play the game. With that, there will be different rewards or incentives to choose one playstyle over another. Some people love playing solo, others love being grouped. One of the rewards or incentives of being groups is that your heals and theirs all heal everyone within your group. Otherwise you have like 50 players who don't even have to be grouped, all AoE healing each other [snip]

The choice we're presented with is whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. The choice is 100% yours.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

Well, aside from those healers who didn't want to be forced into a group to be able to heal [snip]

And no, its not a matter of having our cake (cross-group healing) and eating it too (being able to heal without joining a specific group.)

Its a matter of whether or not we'll be able to play like we always used to be able to in Cyrodiil, where everyone on our faction can heal and be healed by all nearby allies in the same fight, formally grouped or not.

[snip]

There are many things in life that we used to do because at the time they either worked well or were the only way to do something. Things change, and the way we "used" to play wasn't working anymore with the current level of power creep. The only way PVP works is if players die, which includes groups. Now players are incentivized to work as a team, and be efficient with how they play...more tactical if you will. Rather than spam AoE heals to keep 30 people up.

This would be a reasonable argument if ZoS said "alright, no more DPS because power creep unless you're solo" or "alright, no more DPS because power creep unless you're grouped" except they didn't so it isn't.

Ryath_Waylander

Goregrinder wrote: »

Rather than spam AoE heals to keep 30 people up.

Or... spam AoE DPS to burn 30 people down? Oh wait...

Kwoung

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

ESO supports different playstyles and provides players with choices on how they want to play the game. With that, there will be different rewards or incentives to choose one playstyle over another. Some people love playing solo, others love being grouped. One of the rewards or incentives of being groups is that your heals and theirs all heal everyone within your group. Otherwise you have like 50 players who don't even have to be grouped, all AoE healing each other [snip]

The choice we're presented with is whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. The choice is 100% yours.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

Well, aside from those healers who didn't want to be forced into a group to be able to heal [snip]

And no, its not a matter of having our cake (cross-group healing) and eating it too (being able to heal without joining a specific group.)

Its a matter of whether or not we'll be able to play like we always used to be able to in Cyrodiil, where everyone on our faction can heal and be healed by all nearby allies in the same fight, formally grouped or not.

[snip]

There are many things in life that we used to do because at the time they either worked well or were the only way to do something. Things change, and the way we "used" to play wasn't working anymore with the current level of power creep. The only way PVP works is if players die, which includes groups. Now players are incentivized to work as a team, and be efficient with how they play...more tactical if you will. Rather than spam AoE heals to keep 30 people up.

That's not accurate at all. Tons of players play solo or small group with no heals and proc sets that keep them alive and almost unkillable while still pulling insane damage. Anyone solo around them that isn't also in a cheese build better be awesome at PVP or expect to die.

How about you need to be in a full group for your proc sets, DD's or AOE's to work? That's about the same as saying be in a group to heal people.

Wing

just wanted to post a little food for thought.

if this was to fix a problem, what was the problem?

your answer is probably the hyperbolic answer of "1 person healing 30! and keeping them from dying!"


this is in face of the counter argument of "just group!" btw, as if 1 person, was trying to kill 1 person that was solo in a group of 5 other random people and could not because of aoe healing, imagine now that those 6 people just grouped? nothing has changed, and in fact the 1v6 just got harder. there are also no changes as far as performance is concerned.


lets keep going.


people complain that solo healers are just looking for a fight and wandering into the front lines spamming radiating regen. well i speak for most Cyro players when i say a assume we all come to Cyro looking for a fight? correct no? I personally always push the front, if you want to go PvDoor go for it, not my thing.
but to the issue, say at most we have a field of randoms, all this did was make it 24 solo players into 2 ball groups at best. and we have witnessed this. i personally noticed that a massive group was clearly comprised of at least 2 ball groups based on movement, stack on crown and 12v1 is easy to bear witness to with any amount of knowledge of how those groups move.

of the 2 options, a group of 24 solo, or 2, 12 man ball groups, what do you think is the easy option as far as getting kills?


if the problem boils down to AoE heals, or "smart" healing, or mass purge, would the better option not to be address those skills / systems? rather then adding in a prerequisite of "group" that actually only makes it HARDER to kill.



could you imagine if there was not a single solo player in Cyro, and everyone was in 12 man ball groups? nobody would kill anyone, it would just be blobs moving around trying to bomb each other, that concept is terrible.



if radiating regen is a problem, IT should be addressed.
if purge is a problem, IT should be addressed.

DreadDaedroth

They'll not revert the changes the Zos combat team liked the behavioral changes so they are more interested in what makes them happy than customers which are more conspired like lab rats in a maze.
In an AvAvA where all factions can deal damage to each other it's just logical that heals shouldn't be limited in 12 players groups.

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

ESO supports different playstyles and provides players with choices on how they want to play the game. With that, there will be different rewards or incentives to choose one playstyle over another. Some people love playing solo, others love being grouped. One of the rewards or incentives of being groups is that your heals and theirs all heal everyone within your group. Otherwise you have like 50 players who don't even have to be grouped, all AoE healing each other [snip]

The choice we're presented with is whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. The choice is 100% yours.

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

Well, aside from those healers who didn't want to be forced into a group to be able to heal [snip]

And no, its not a matter of having our cake (cross-group healing) and eating it too (being able to heal without joining a specific group.)

Its a matter of whether or not we'll be able to play like we always used to be able to in Cyrodiil, where everyone on our faction can heal and be healed by all nearby allies in the same fight, formally grouped or not.

[snip]

There are many things in life that we used to do because at the time they either worked well or were the only way to do something. Things change, and the way we "used" to play wasn't working anymore with the current level of power creep. The only way PVP works is if players die, which includes groups. Now players are incentivized to work as a team, and be efficient with how they play...more tactical if you will. Rather than spam AoE heals to keep 30 people up.

No, I don't believe your argument makes logical sense based on the effects we've seen.

First off, if their idea was "limit healing = players dying", then I assure you my raid healer outputs a lot more healing than my "solo" healer or "PUG healer" ever does. Something about being able to run a dedicated healer within the protection of an organized group with stacked support sets and coordinated movement let's me spam healing on teammates who aren't spread out across the battlefield, you know?

Predictably, this means that any attempt to limit healing was going to benefit organized raids and ball groups...who were already the hardest groups in Cyrodiil to kill, often requiring less organized players to bring a big numbers advantage to the fight.

Second, if ZOS did this because they can't contain power creep and groups not dying, then they should have taken aim at the groups who are hardest to kill.

That's not PUGs. Its not even the faction stack. It's always been the ball groups, with their dedicated healers and stacked support sets, with voice comms and coordinated attacks, all of which allowed them to farm for hours prior to the update.

Guess who wasn't touched by the changes?
Oh, right, its the 12-man ball groups who like to go farm PUGs in back keeps by themselves.
And what has been one of the notable results of this change?
Oh, right, 12-man ball groups farming PUGs because a 12-man group of randoms who LFGed in zone chat has nowhere close to the power and healing available to an organized 12-man raid with dedicated healers, stacked support sets, voice comms and coordinated attacks. Which, you guessed it, makes it very, very hard for PUGs to kill ball groups without an even greater advantage in numbers than it took before the change.


If, as you suggest, ZOS was trying to make groups killable for a better PVP experience, they missed the mark...unless we're saying that PUGs, not ball groups were the real power creep all along.

VaranisArano

Wing wrote: »

just wanted to post a little food for thought.

if this was to fix a problem, what was the problem?

your answer is probably the hyperbolic answer of "1 person healing 30! and keeping them from dying!"

This amused me. If 1 person healing 30 caused problems by keeping them alive, then I'd have enjoyed PUG healing a lot more. After all, one healer in a group of 24 plus some cross heals from other group members ought to be pretty effective, right? And now, with 12 players, one healer ought to be able to really do some good work, right?

Nope! Sorry, groupmates, I'm not that powerful enough of a PUG healer to keep y'all alive when you scatter or when a ball group charges us with an ulti drop!

I mean:
How many dedicated healers do ball groups run with these days + all sorts of cross heals within their group?
Even PVE trial groups have two dedicated healers.

12-man PUG groups, some of whom won't even have one healer, and when they have cross-heals, certainly aren't spamming them, are at a ludicrous healing disadvantage.


But then again, I already hear the hyperbolic answer. "Get gud, PUGs! Learn2Play tactically!"

At that point, why not jump straight to "PUGs, join a 12-man ball group already!"

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Its like saying that in in the army upon finding an injured soldier you would refuse to aminister first aid for the sole reason that he is not part of your squad

Reaper_00

Goregrinder wrote: »

The only way PVP works is if players die, which includes groups. Now players are incentivized to work as a team, and be efficient with how they play...more tactical if you will. Rather than spam AoE heals to keep 30 people up.

So instead of working to reduce the effectiveness of the healers through debuffs, coordinated stuns, silences, negates, etc they can now just ignore them and instead and kill everyone quickly. That isn't tactful, it's lazy. I guess it is efficient though.

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

First off, if their idea was "limit healing = players dying", then I assure you my raid healer outputs a lot more healing than my "solo" healer or "PUG healer" ever does. Something about being able to run a dedicated healer within the protection of an organized group with stacked support sets and coordinated movement let's me spam healing on teammates who aren't spread out across the battlefield, you know?

Predictably, this means that any attempt to limit healing was going to benefit organized raids and ball groups...who were already the hardest groups in Cyrodiil to kill, often requiring less organized players to bring a big numbers advantage to the fight.

Second, if ZOS did this because they can't contain power creep and groups not dying, then they should have taken aim at the groups who are hardest to kill.

Yeah, since the change I've noticed a lot more small scale (3-6 players) groups farming entire keeps full of solo randoms. While the guild groups are out after scrolls and Emp keeps, these mini-squads of troll tanks with pocket healers/purgers/negaters will either stealh in a recaptured keep or powerdoor a back keep, and then run around courtyards and walls farming individuals who can't support each other. I mean, this can go on for an hour or more. And when the randoms ask for help in zone chat, they get "Deal with it", "L2P", "We're busy", etc.

Where random folks used to be able to work together to clean up keep trolls and tower farmers, ZOS has instead made them stronger with the removal of cross healing. And the byproduct of this "behavior" is more frustrated newcomers regretting their experimental foray into PvP. After dying quickly and repeatedly, they see how difficult it is to kill these empowered mini-groups, leave Cyro, and never come back. And unfortunately, new blood is necessary for AvAvA health, as the veterans retire or move on to other games. Queues have become a lot smaller, and off-peak hours in Cyro are graveyard quiet..... even in Grey Host.

If the slow death of organized PvP is the ultimate goal, it's working as intended.

YandereGirlfriend

The first mistake of a PUG fighting tower rats is simply being there in the first place.

Everyone goes through that phase when they begin PvP'ing but players typically figure it out after getting farmed a few times.

eso_lags

Best change ever. You guys dont actually want to solo, no what you want is to chase down solo players with randoms while still being able to heal them. No. But you still will chase actual solo players down with a random group and thank god you wont be able to heal them. You already have the advantage, you dont need more.

Again, one of the best changes they ever made. right along side the group size. Plus its good for performance. Its a step in the right direction for once.

If you really want to randomly heal people find a heal that can still heal others. I dont play a healer, and never will, but ive seen people healing randoms with cauterize. Not sure what else does it.

YandereGirlfriend

eso_lags wrote: »

You guys dont actually want to solo, no what you want is to chase down solo players with randoms while still being able to heal them. No. But you still will chase actual solo players down with a random group and thank god you wont be able to heal them.

This was kind of the elephant in the room that I was sensing in many of these posts.

There are many "solo" players out there who simply want to cruise around with a full faction-stack and bulldoze everything in their path with overwhelming numbers. Those same players have zero compunction about running down a true solo player or a small-scale group in the same fashion that they are now complaining about ball groups eating them up.

And in the unlocked campaign, many "solo" players simply switch sides so that they can bandwagon along with the winning side, running around fully buffed up with the Emperor bonus and all the Scrolls and gate-camping the losing factions.

So while I am sad for the honest solo healers that lost their playstyle, I am not particularly sad for the opportunistic bandwagoneers out who come to Cyrodiil simply to zerg around and beat down factions that are already outnumbered.

Raevyness

eso_lags wrote: »

Best change ever. You guys dont actually want to solo, no what you want is to chase down solo players with randoms while still being able to heal them. No. But you still will chase actual solo players down with a random group and thank god you wont be able to heal them. You already have the advantage, you dont need more.

Again, one of the best changes they ever made. right along side the group size. Plus its good for performance. Its a step in the right direction for once.

If you really want to randomly heal people find a heal that can still heal others. I dont play a healer, and never will, but ive seen people healing randoms with cauterize. Not sure what else does it.

You said it yourself.. You dont play as a healer and never well. So i'll just go right ahead and disregard your opinion on the matter.

I've played a healer on EVERY MMO for over 15 years of playing MMOs. This is one of the WORST decisions.
What does it actually accomplish??
As a healer heading into PVP and realizing, once again on AD NA, that we were highly outnumbered, with no large organized groups going up against EP and DC, defending forts with about 20 people maybe a few grouped (i suspect mostly not), I log in and see theres 20+ players about to be rolled by incoming EP, attempt to heal them in a bid to help defend the fort and guess what? We were rolled in 2 seconds and I couldn't even help. Prior to these changes MAYBE my heals could have helped slow down the attack, allow us to push them back out the gate & seal the breach and be a defend. But 20 pugs going against like 40 EP. We had 0 chance, especially now I cant even heal we've -80% chance. In fact we mose well have logged off and just handed them the keys to that fort.

It made no difference. These changes are KILLING the class. And I'll be the first to say it. I'm dropping playing a healer and playing something else. Period. Is this a MMO?? BEcause its not very massive if 1/3 of the play style cant actually play in PVP (meaning DPS, Tank, healer).

If you've played NA, AD before you'd realize numbers are already LOW the majority of the time (outside of peak), as an Australian player, I play MOSTLY out of peak, meaning PVP was already a soggy experience at that for me, but this... this really kills it.. This isn't PVP. We don't even stand a chance anymore without the big shot PVP guilds..