Fake Tanking

AyaDark

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

First I haven´t seen or looked at the video above maybe later. Some fake tanking are going well and some not - the most of them doesn´t go very well.

As a princip fake tanking is something I´m not against in anyway as long it´s kept privat and no one is having their gameplay and experience demoralized by it. That´s were I draw the line.

I never had the urge to fake tank or heal, that or fakeing a role, but it did happen once as a accident on my dd magplar. Some how the role must have changed to healer and I discovered it mid dungeon and got very embarrassed by it and apologized for it. I told they have the right to kick me and would understand.

Add some options for people in group tool. 1 privat option were you can que as any role. A 2nd option were you can click something like "official run" were roles are kept strict - meaning you as a tank need to have minimum health, resistance and need certain abilities in slot to fulfilll the tank role.

It can be done

It is not about role, it is about that dunguans is not hard to pass even solo or with fake tank.

The problem with fake tanks only appears when all party is weak.

Why only fake tanks are blamed ? Why not others ? As example fake DDs?

Blam fake tanks will be done with if we had two options like the once I mention above. Hunting a boss around in circles, carsting all over the place ? Only one weak link I se there.

I can and will accept faliur if it´s a real tank as everyone have to start somewhere and level up + learn (I´m leveling a 2nd tank myself and know what´s going on). If you que up as a fake knowing it can go wrong and all day really don´t care. No no no not in my book.

Fake dds that´s for another post.

I tank all vDLC not hms on dd with no problem. Untill last 2, was only 1 time there so did not try.

Fang layer hm may be is a weak link )) but not because of you saying.

Run there is the main mechanick of that dunguan.

So i understand your level, can post some not dlc vet solo then ))

Sarannah

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

It's a systems issue that will always exist as long as the group finder does roles on the honor system.

A good system would have checks on builds that you must meet in order to queue as tank or healer. But with the group finder issues in this game for 6+ years I have to wonder what else they'd mess up if they try to add a change like this to it.

Iselin

Ok, so a taunt is required to be a tank. In ESO that is the basic requirement for being a tank and considering the fluid nature of build possibilities and the lack of a true trinity that is all that is required.

So I unlock a taunt, maybe even slot it on my bar to "pass the test". Queue pops and I go about being a DPS, maybe even remove the taunt from my bar, and go about my day.

That is exactly how such a "good system" would work in ESO. It is pointless for Zos to add such a useless system to the GF.

BTW, again, those who do not even try to vote kick the fake tank are the real culprits because they are choosing to allow such behavior.

The fake tank is the culprit. Those who refuse to kick are enablers. And I say that as someone who's enabled fake tanks because the dungeon will be done quicker if my healer or DD facetanks the boss instead of waiting for a replacement.

Ok, They are both the problem.

AyaDark

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

Different dlc dunguans may need changes in gear. If do not tank and others change gear it will be a problem for all the party not may be even for a tank himself.

As example i put troll king on in malatar HM, and fung layer. In mazatun earth gore it can be and etc

So this changes for unskilled groups will be more problem if you get vdlc random with good party.

If some one do not like fake tanks - do your party, it is random, all is random and i like it

Sarannah

AyaDark wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

Different dlc dunguans may need changes in gear. If do not tank and others change gear it will be a problem for all the party not may be even for a tank himself.

As example i put troll king on in malatar HM, and fung layer. In mazatun earth gore it can be and etc

So this changes for unskilled groups will be more problem if you get vdlc random with good party.

If some one do not like fake tanks - do your party, it is random, all is random and i like it

Well, maybe unable to change gear/skills with the exception of monster head/shoulders. Or maybe situational cases could be exceptions where before and after certain bosses it will be made possible to change certain gearpieces. Some specific tank builds could also be requested as exceptions. But as long as there is a solid tank-expectation/foundation to work from, we wouldn't have fake tanks anymore.

idk

svendf wrote: »

How may dds have 35-40k in health ? How many dds have 25-30k resistance with buffs or without (or even above that)? How many dds have two taunts in slot ? Many real tanks have and I have.(inner fire and piercing)

How many dds have a pull or portal in slot for adds ?

Meta is for score runs and not needed for runs other than that. Builds can be checked.

Real tanks are real. Fakes are fakes. It can be checked and should be.

@svendf

The issue is most of what is mentioned here is not required to be a tank. 35k health? No. 25k resist? No

The only requirement for being a tank in ESO is having a taunt (and using it ofc). So the check would be fairly useless as the fake tank can easily unlock a taunt but the "check" cannot guarantee they will use it.

The fact is this game was designed and intended that we can handle more than one role at a time. The devs even showed and discussed this with gameplay footage before the game was launched.

BTW, I have taken a DD character with DD CP and all attributes into magicka and went into a tanked a vet dungeon by merely slotting different gear and skills and S&B tanked. I might have had 25k health and who knows what my resist was. I had no issues, so such strict definitions of a tank are not appropriate.

Sarannah

idk wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

How may dds have 35-40k in health ? How many dds have 25-30k resistance with buffs or without (or even above that)? How many dds have two taunts in slot ? Many real tanks have and I have.(inner fire and piercing)

How many dds have a pull or portal in slot for adds ?

Meta is for score runs and not needed for runs other than that. Builds can be checked.

Real tanks are real. Fakes are fakes. It can be checked and should be.

@svendf

The issue is most of what is mentioned here is not required to be a tank. 35k health? No. 25k resist? No

The only requirement for being a tank in ESO is having a taunt (and using it ofc). So the check would be fairly useless as the fake tank can easily unlock a taunt but the "check" cannot guarantee they will use it.

The fact is this game was designed and intended that we can handle more than one role at a time. The devs even showed and discussed this with gameplay footage before the game was launched.

BTW, I have taken a DD character with DD CP and all attributes into magicka and went into a tanked a vet dungeon by merely slotting different gear and skills and S&B tanked. I might have had 25k health and who knows what my resist was. I had no issues, so such strict definitions of a tank are not appropriate.

Just having a taunt slotted does not make you a tank. There is alot more needed for the actual role. Just because alot of players cheese normal dungeons with non-tank ways, does not mean the minimum tank requirements as I put them above shouldn't be there to be able to queue as a tank. It would be a great start to get players into actual tanking mode, and allow them to learn tanking in normal dungeons. Which is now impossible. And with those minimum requirements which I named, even "fake-tanks" would have quite alot of tank in them! But they would be alot easier to spot/kick.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

svendf

josiahva wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Many dps have hp around 19k-22k Health and magical damage round 3000 as my magplar have. A few K above that doesn´t give it any tank status even if you would be able to tank lets say FG1 on normal.

There are some situations were a dps toon can be called anything from a tank to a healer. It all boils down to where the person/persons stand regarding fake tanking or healing.

Tanks have always had high HP and high resistance for survival and low damage seen in relation to dds and healers.

Are you a tank with lets say 22k hp ? Certainly not. Can you tank ? Yes for some dungeons. Should you que as a tank ? No

By definition you are not a tank regardin resistance and hp.

Wrong. you can tank(and be a tank) just fine with 22k health. The CONTENT you can tank is limited however. With 22K health you can tank ANY base game vet dungeon without a problem...you can even tank a few of the vet DLC dungeons(vCoS, vICP, vWGT, maybe a few others). There is no way you are tanking vDoM though...or at least if you do, one little mistake will kill you fast.Max HP matters, but it simply does not matter nearly as much as resistances for all the easier dungeons. Max HP and max resistances are not the only measure of tank...The measure of a tank, is simply performing the role to an adequate degree. If a tank is controlling mobs(whichever method used) taunting the boss and any dangerous ads and not dying all the time...they are tanking. If the "tank" is letting mobs and boss chase the DPS all around the screen and dying to everything...they are not tanking....its really pretty simple. Unconventional tank builds are just fine...even if the tank is putting out 30k+ damage, as long as they are doing their job it simply does not matter...what matters is when someone queues up for tank and then does NOT do their job. BTW...while tanks being buff monkeys is certainly nice for the rest of the group, it is certainly no requirement...and is far more effective in a 12-player setting than a 4-player setting. So if you have a tank with a choice of using buffs to raise group DPS 20k, or tank while doing 20k of their own damage...what do you really care which method they choose? Being a buff monkey tank only becomes more effective when the DPS is good...and lets be honest...how many times is that in a random pug?

I personally now default to sap-type setup on my tank for decent passive damage(about 15k) while tanking non-vet DLCs and even some vet DLCs....but I use dressing room to swap gear/skills at the press of a button going from mobs to bosses. So on a mob or less dangerous boss I may be pulling 15k single target...but for dangerous bosses I drop to 3k and go full tank. This type of constant gear swap play is far more fun than being stuck doing 3k in a full tank setup in a group with pitifully low damage. 15k isnt much....but when damage is really low, it makes dungeons much more enjoyable to tank, doing psuedo-DPS. The key is that you still must do all the needed tanking stuff in addition to whatever DPS you are trying to do.

This is not really much different than when I equip some healing sets like battalion defender or redistributor, and backbar a resto staff in a 3DPS group and take over the role of psuedo-healer. Its multi-roleing and its really not that difficult to do.

The post I believe is about fake tanking and request about getting rid of it. What´s wrong with that ?

Yes I believe that to be called a tank it´s important setting up requirements for safe tank survival - globaly despite whitch dungeon we are talking about (real tanks).

Reading through your answer to me (not just once) it gives me the impression, that you simply don´t care about people getting their gaming demolished into something like "no dungeons for me again".

You can eigther be a part of the problem or try with some input for solutions - and don´t present the old "it´s not possible" because it is.

I´m sorry if this is taken a bit like in your face. I do follow what you are saying and after all I have been playing this game since it came out on console back in 2015 I believe it was (came to the forums late) and I don´t have dressing room (not your fault).

Please bring in some solutions That will be more interesting.
Thanks for reply
Goodday Sir

josiahva

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

[snip]

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

[edited for rude/insulting comment]

Iselin

Nope, it's never about being a selfish queue jumper, it' always about (insert excuse here)

josiahva

svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Many dps have hp around 19k-22k Health and magical damage round 3000 as my magplar have. A few K above that doesn´t give it any tank status even if you would be able to tank lets say FG1 on normal.

There are some situations were a dps toon can be called anything from a tank to a healer. It all boils down to where the person/persons stand regarding fake tanking or healing.

Tanks have always had high HP and high resistance for survival and low damage seen in relation to dds and healers.

Are you a tank with lets say 22k hp ? Certainly not. Can you tank ? Yes for some dungeons. Should you que as a tank ? No

By definition you are not a tank regardin resistance and hp.

Wrong. you can tank(and be a tank) just fine with 22k health. The CONTENT you can tank is limited however. With 22K health you can tank ANY base game vet dungeon without a problem...you can even tank a few of the vet DLC dungeons(vCoS, vICP, vWGT, maybe a few others). There is no way you are tanking vDoM though...or at least if you do, one little mistake will kill you fast.Max HP matters, but it simply does not matter nearly as much as resistances for all the easier dungeons. Max HP and max resistances are not the only measure of tank...The measure of a tank, is simply performing the role to an adequate degree. If a tank is controlling mobs(whichever method used) taunting the boss and any dangerous ads and not dying all the time...they are tanking. If the "tank" is letting mobs and boss chase the DPS all around the screen and dying to everything...they are not tanking....its really pretty simple. Unconventional tank builds are just fine...even if the tank is putting out 30k+ damage, as long as they are doing their job it simply does not matter...what matters is when someone queues up for tank and then does NOT do their job. BTW...while tanks being buff monkeys is certainly nice for the rest of the group, it is certainly no requirement...and is far more effective in a 12-player setting than a 4-player setting. So if you have a tank with a choice of using buffs to raise group DPS 20k, or tank while doing 20k of their own damage...what do you really care which method they choose? Being a buff monkey tank only becomes more effective when the DPS is good...and lets be honest...how many times is that in a random pug?

I personally now default to sap-type setup on my tank for decent passive damage(about 15k) while tanking non-vet DLCs and even some vet DLCs....but I use dressing room to swap gear/skills at the press of a button going from mobs to bosses. So on a mob or less dangerous boss I may be pulling 15k single target...but for dangerous bosses I drop to 3k and go full tank. This type of constant gear swap play is far more fun than being stuck doing 3k in a full tank setup in a group with pitifully low damage. 15k isnt much....but when damage is really low, it makes dungeons much more enjoyable to tank, doing psuedo-DPS. The key is that you still must do all the needed tanking stuff in addition to whatever DPS you are trying to do.

This is not really much different than when I equip some healing sets like battalion defender or redistributor, and backbar a resto staff in a 3DPS group and take over the role of psuedo-healer. Its multi-roleing and its really not that difficult to do.

The post I believe is about fake tanking and request about getting rid of it. What´s wrong with that ?

Yes I believe that to be called a tank it´s important setting up requirements for safe tank survival - globaly despite whitch dungeon we are talking about (real tanks).

Reading through your answer to me (not just once) it gives me the impression, that you simply don´t care about people getting their gaming demolished into something like "no dungeons for me again".

You can eigther be a part of the problem or try with some input for solutions - and don´t present the old "it´s not possible" because it is.

I´m sorry if this is taken a bit like in your face. I do follow what you are saying and after all I have been playing this game since it came out on console back in 2015 I believe it was (came to the forums late) and I don´t have dressing room (not your fault).

Please bring in some solutions That will be more interesting.
Thanks for reply
Goodday Sir

I too have been playing since 2015....this is WHY I have tried out so many different kinds of tanking and realize that there are many ways to do so that your "solutions" would cripple. The solution is already there and always has been...vote to kick tanks that don't do their job. I have no problem with getting rid of fake tanks. When I queue for a DPS role and I get a fake tank...I vote to kick if they don't do their job. I DONT judge them beforehand because they only have 25k health or have a 2 hander and bow equipped...what do I care if they want to run that way? I Don't...all I care about is that they hold enemy aggro and control the battlefield by not letting ads run all over the place after the DPS. Of course if a tank with 18k health shows up, lets ads run all over the place and dies to the boss...that is truly a fake tank and needs to be kicked, but if a tank shield sorc with 18k health shows up, controls the ads and tanks the boss without problems...no reason to kick someone like that. I see no reason whatsoever that a tank should conform to your expectation of doing 2k DPS with 50k health and maxed resistances...tanks like that are certainly useful...but they are overkill for the content we are talking about here. A sorc with 18k health can easily have 40k worth of shields(we wont get into whether shields or health are more efficient) at any time they need them(tried out one of those as well). If you want to make a "requirment" to queue as a tank...there is only one reasonable requirement that you can make:

They have a taunt equipped at all times while in the dungeon, unequipping a taunt leads to an auto-kick. That's it..the rest is dynamic and can and will change with the build.

OmniDo

A Tank's "job" is to do the following:

1. Aggro Mobs that will easily kill whoever is not "Tanking"
2. Survive said aggro

That's it.
Nothing else.

If a DD can do that, then they can "Tank".
If a Healer can do that, then they can "Tank".
What their primary roles beyond their declared roles are, is irrelevant.

Move long folks, nothing more to read here.

AyaDark

Sarannah wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

Different dlc dunguans may need changes in gear. If do not tank and others change gear it will be a problem for all the party not may be even for a tank himself.

As example i put troll king on in malatar HM, and fung layer. In mazatun earth gore it can be and etc

So this changes for unskilled groups will be more problem if you get vdlc random with good party.

If some one do not like fake tanks - do your party, it is random, all is random and i like it

Well, maybe unable to change gear/skills with the exception of monster head/shoulders. Or maybe situational cases could be exceptions where before and after certain bosses it will be made possible to change certain gearpieces. Some specific tank builds could also be requested as exceptions. But as long as there is a solid tank-expectation/foundation to work from, we wouldn't have fake tanks anymore.

I think with such changes no one will play randoms

josiahva

AyaDark wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

Different dlc dunguans may need changes in gear. If do not tank and others change gear it will be a problem for all the party not may be even for a tank himself.

As example i put troll king on in malatar HM, and fung layer. In mazatun earth gore it can be and etc

So this changes for unskilled groups will be more problem if you get vdlc random with good party.

If some one do not like fake tanks - do your party, it is random, all is random and i like it

Well, maybe unable to change gear/skills with the exception of monster head/shoulders. Or maybe situational cases could be exceptions where before and after certain bosses it will be made possible to change certain gearpieces. Some specific tank builds could also be requested as exceptions. But as long as there is a solid tank-expectation/foundation to work from, we wouldn't have fake tanks anymore.

I think with such changes no one will play randoms

I think with that solution...I would simply stop tanking entirely...this thread should be entitled: "Solutions: How to make tanking so miserable no one will want to do it" You cant do damage, you cant heal, you can only be a damage sponge.

Its like saying...all tank damage is reduced to 0. Its punishing true tanks because some people like to fake tank.

svendf

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

[snip]

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

idk

Sarannah wrote: »

idk wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

How may dds have 35-40k in health ? How many dds have 25-30k resistance with buffs or without (or even above that)? How many dds have two taunts in slot ? Many real tanks have and I have.(inner fire and piercing)

How many dds have a pull or portal in slot for adds ?

Meta is for score runs and not needed for runs other than that. Builds can be checked.

Real tanks are real. Fakes are fakes. It can be checked and should be.

@svendf

The issue is most of what is mentioned here is not required to be a tank. 35k health? No. 25k resist? No

The only requirement for being a tank in ESO is having a taunt (and using it ofc). So the check would be fairly useless as the fake tank can easily unlock a taunt but the "check" cannot guarantee they will use it.

The fact is this game was designed and intended that we can handle more than one role at a time. The devs even showed and discussed this with gameplay footage before the game was launched.

BTW, I have taken a DD character with DD CP and all attributes into magicka and went into a tanked a vet dungeon by merely slotting different gear and skills and S&B tanked. I might have had 25k health and who knows what my resist was. I had no issues, so such strict definitions of a tank are not appropriate.

Just having a taunt slotted does not make you a tank. There is alot more needed for the actual role. Just because alot of players cheese normal dungeons with non-tank ways, does not mean the minimum tank requirements as I put them above shouldn't be there to be able to queue as a tank. It would be a great start to get players into actual tanking mode, and allow them to learn tanking in normal dungeons. Which is now impossible. And with those minimum requirements which I named, even "fake-tanks" would have quite alot of tank in them! But they would be alot easier to spot/kick.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

@Sarannah I assume you read the second item you quoted as see they clearly start off with a suggestion to deal with fact tanks. They are not suggesting that those items are actual requirements to be a tank because they are not.

Considering we are talking about about 4 man dungeons and vMoL HM has was tanked in full medium armor a few years ago when it was much more challenged it is false to suggest 5 pieces of HA are required to be a tank.

I know a DPS who went into vet BRF for the final boss when the tank in that group kept failing. A DPS handled tanking Earthgore on HM with DPS CP and skills outside of slotting a taunt.
Oh, BTW, that since that DPS that tanked Earthgore on HM in dps gear would not have had 30k health.

It could not be farther from the truth to suggest it is a requirement that a tank has to wear 5 pieces of heavy armor with all the passives filled out and/or resistance be as high as you are suggesting via that quote.

What is interesting about this thread is so many people are ignoring why there is a shortage of real tanks queueing for the GF. We avoid the GF because far too often we get to put together with very bad DPS (some say fake DPS) and similar healer. It is not worth it as we have access to players via our guilds that provide is with much smoother and faster dungeon runs.

the1andonlyskwex

Kurat wrote: »

If you don't like fake tanks queue for vets. Sometimes you can get a bad tank but I've never seen fake one.

I see this suggestion in fake tank threads all the time and it doesn't align with my experience at all. On my healer, I get about the same number of fake tanks in vet dungeons as I do in normals. At least in normals it doesn't result in dungeons taking over an hour to complete.

I would estimate that about 1/3 of my vet dungeon runs have a tank with less than 18k HP that either doesn't taunt or taunts and then proceeds to kite bosses all over the place so everybody's DPS suffers. It's infuriating. Then, to make matters worse, it's almost impossible to kick the fake if we're not repeatedly wiping because nobody wants to wait 40 minutes for a replacement.

idk

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

[snip]

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less


So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

I would like to point out that a few years ago vMoL HM was tanked in full medium armor. He was the MT as there have been others as OT wearing the same gear as he was.. BTW, pretty sure this was just before Morrowind was added to the game so vHoL HM was the most challenging content in the game at the time.

link to that thread for anyone who doubts a medium armor tank did tank vMoL HM.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/333249/tanking-hardmode-rakkhat-in-medium-armour

AyaDark

josiahva wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

Different dlc dunguans may need changes in gear. If do not tank and others change gear it will be a problem for all the party not may be even for a tank himself.

As example i put troll king on in malatar HM, and fung layer. In mazatun earth gore it can be and etc

So this changes for unskilled groups will be more problem if you get vdlc random with good party.

If some one do not like fake tanks - do your party, it is random, all is random and i like it

Well, maybe unable to change gear/skills with the exception of monster head/shoulders. Or maybe situational cases could be exceptions where before and after certain bosses it will be made possible to change certain gearpieces. Some specific tank builds could also be requested as exceptions. But as long as there is a solid tank-expectation/foundation to work from, we wouldn't have fake tanks anymore.

I think with such changes no one will play randoms

I think with that solution...I would simply stop tanking entirely...this thread should be entitled: "Solutions: How to make tanking so miserable no one will want to do it" You cant do damage, you cant heal, you can only be a damage sponge.

Its like saying...all tank damage is reduced to 0. Its punishing true tanks because some people like to fake tank.

Hahaha the same.

It was why i stop tanking year+ ago.


By the way:
Naked dlc run Tank with no heavy gear to.
https://youtu.be/Fn_eCR5gfzE

They just do not understand, that all problems are not fake tanks. They themselves are problem.

They do not want learn to play better.

No tanks, all are fakes ? - make your own tank and tank on it. Nope, we would just cry )

Find a group - nope.

Casuals way

idk

.

svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

That is probably the WORST idea I have ever heard.

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

Considering their requirements are to implement what is needed for HM trial tanking it is very much extreme. Considering most fake tanks are in normal mode dungeons the idea is even that much more extreme.

If we are going to do this we might as well solve the fake DPS issue, which is just as bad, and require good trial level dps to join the queue? Maybe 40k dps for vet dungeons? Both DPS required to pull 50k to enable HM on the final boss. I think we should go easier on normal dungeons and only require 30k DPS.

Maybe it is a good idea to set such stringent standards after all.

The reality is there is not a good way to get rid of fake tanks. The first thing is vote kicking the fake tanks consistently. The reason they are as prevalent as they are is players are accepting of them because they got a queue. I say, be the solution yourself, kick the tank, have a backup setup for tanking (I stam tanked a vet HM on a Magicka DPS by changing gear and skills, not CP), and queue for a replacement DPS. As noted earlier I know players who have tanked final bosses on HM as DPS with a taunt. It really is that simple.

Oh, and also correct the situation that is the reason most decent tanks will not queue solo for a dungeon.

oddbasket

Please label yourselves fake healer if you do not provide resource regen and dps buff on top of healing, and fake dps if you cannot maintain 20k dps on boss fight and need to ban yourselves from the queue finder.

This is the only fair option from all your expectations of a tank needing be top level in normal as like it's a vet dlc, otherwise labeling him as a fake tank and trying to request banning him from queue finder. Otherwise, you are all hypocrites.

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

CompM4s

Real tanks are only needed in vet dungeons. On normal there is no need. The reason many fake tanks are not kicked from normal dailies is because they are likely a high dps character that is carrying the group anyways.

idk

oddbasket wrote: »

Please label yourselves fake healer if you do not provide resource regen and dps buff on top of healing, and fake dps if you cannot maintain 20k dps on boss fight and need to ban yourselves from the queue finder.

This is the only fair option from all your expectations of a tank needing be top level in normal as like it's a vet dlc, otherwise labeling him as a fake tank and trying to request banning him from queue finder. Otherwise, you are all hypocrites.

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

A fake healer is the only one that does not heal. The resource regen and DPS buffs are nice to have but if one is queueing for a dungeon via the GF then a tank taunting and a healer healing are really the only requirements for being real.

Want more than that then one really needs to be forming their own group.

oddbasket

idk wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

Please label yourselves fake healer if you do not provide resource regen and dps buff on top of healing, and fake dps if you cannot maintain 20k dps on boss fight and need to ban yourselves from the queue finder.

This is the only fair option from all your expectations of a tank needing be top level in normal as like it's a vet dlc, otherwise labeling him as a fake tank and trying to request banning him from queue finder. Otherwise, you are all hypocrites.

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

A fake healer is the only one that does not heal. The resource regen and DPS buffs are nice to have but if one is queueing for a dungeon via the GF then a tank taunting and a healer healing are really the only requirements for being real.

Want more than that then one really needs to be forming their own group.

That's my point exactly, you guys want to limit queue finder tanks to heavy armor, 35k hp, 25k resistance, taunt, crowd control etc, but you hold yourselves by a separate standard.. such hypocrites.

idk

oddbasket wrote: »

idk wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

Please label yourselves fake healer if you do not provide resource regen and dps buff on top of healing, and fake dps if you cannot maintain 20k dps on boss fight and need to ban yourselves from the queue finder.

This is the only fair option from all your expectations of a tank needing be top level in normal as like it's a vet dlc, otherwise labeling him as a fake tank and trying to request banning him from queue finder. Otherwise, you are all hypocrites.

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

A fake healer is the only one that does not heal. The resource regen and DPS buffs are nice to have but if one is queueing for a dungeon via the GF then a tank taunting and a healer healing are really the only requirements for being real.

Want more than that then one really needs to be forming their own group.

That's my point exactly, you guys want to limit queue finder tanks to heavy armor, 35k hp, 25k resistance, taunt, crowd control etc, but you hold yourselves by a separate standard.. such hypocrites.

I have not asked for any special requirements. My view is a tank has a uses a taunt and a healer has and uses a heal but I know that it serves little purpose to "require" those items for the queue as a true fake tank will just replace the taunt or not use it.

Sarannah

oddbasket wrote: »

idk wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

Please label yourselves fake healer if you do not provide resource regen and dps buff on top of healing, and fake dps if you cannot maintain 20k dps on boss fight and need to ban yourselves from the queue finder.

This is the only fair option from all your expectations of a tank needing be top level in normal as like it's a vet dlc, otherwise labeling him as a fake tank and trying to request banning him from queue finder. Otherwise, you are all hypocrites.

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

A fake healer is the only one that does not heal. The resource regen and DPS buffs are nice to have but if one is queueing for a dungeon via the GF then a tank taunting and a healer healing are really the only requirements for being real.

Want more than that then one really needs to be forming their own group.

That's my point exactly, you guys want to limit queue finder tanks to heavy armor, 35k hp, 25k resistance, taunt, crowd control etc, but you hold yourselves by a separate standard.. such hypocrites.

Fake tanks are the only role being extremely heavily abused, so putting a queue-requirement on the tank role is kinda needed. Would also make it more clear for new players what a tank basically needs.
Just because some veterans play other types of tanks does not diminish this. There could be some specific exceptions, but something is needed.
And if the cheaters switch to another role, that role should get a queue-requirement to it as well.

If a DPS(and healer) waits in queue for 20 minutes, they should get a real party. Otherwise they could just have queue'd tank as well, and that should never happen.

Some people are cheating/abusing the groupfinder system, by cutting in line unjustly, and this should be stopped ASAP. Cheaters should never be rewarded, and I would expect players to have some more moral decency towards their fellow players.

If fake-tanks want to cheese the system, they should find guildies to do it, and not make victims out of three random players. Which is extremely terrible for the game's longterm health. Especially at how often fake-tanks happen right now.

Edit: The queue-requirement for tanks needs to be something DPS and healers can't reach, otherwise it won't solve the fake tank issue. So my queue-requirements aren't that unrealistic.

josiahva

svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

[snip]

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

I have listed the solution...vote to kick. Its a solution that has been there from day one. The problem isn't fake tanking or fake DPS, or fake healing, the problem is that people refuse to use the tools they are given to solve the problem. As many others have mentioned...keeping a few spare sets of armor and a few tanking skills handy will allow anyone to tank if they can't find a replacement, vet content or not. All that is required is some knowledge of how to tank, and honestly, everyone who plays the game for any amount of time should have a basic understanding of all 3 roles. I tank about 90% of the time...but in my bank, I have various DPS and Healer sets that I can swap to at any time to perform either of those roles(maybe not well, but good enough to get through the content) in my inventory I have various heavy armor sets that will let me heal while tanking or do some DPS while tanking...so at any given time, I can swap this stuff and perform these other roles, or multiple roles at the same time....THAT is the only real solution you need to fake role-ing...alternative setups for your own characters to fill a role if a replacement for a vote-kicked member cannot be found within a decent timeframe. This mindset that your character can only do one role is false...regardless if your stat points or your CP distribution, a gear and skill swap will let you do whatever is needed. Add ons like dressing room make this easier, but it only takes a couple minutes to set it manually. Why wait for ZOS to fix a problem when the solution is within your reach?

svendf

I se that there are some doubt or opposition in making fake tanking imposible so to speak, despite two options for people to choose from. That is as now you pick the role you wanna play, which can be called "private session".

2nd one is choose roles as ex. under more restricted norm including min health and resistanse for tank builds.

I don´t believe the opposition against it is that huge as only a few to non in end game community se it happen.

Where it really matters and seen often with rather sad out come, are the low to mid difficult dungeons and of cause some vet as well. And where it felt people wan´t a solution, which is understadable.

Is there a dog berried somewhere ? What will the consequences be for endgame ? I don´t believe that people will stop tanking/build tanks because number I have precented are optainable.

It do not add up ? Where is the dog berried ?

FangOfTheTwoMoons

OmniDo wrote: »

A Tank's "job" is to do the following:

1. Aggro Mobs that will easily kill whoever is not "Tanking"
2. Survive said aggro

That's it.
Nothing else.

If a DD can do that, then they can "Tank".
If a Healer can do that, then they can "Tank".
What their primary roles beyond their declared roles are, is irrelevant.

Move long folks, nothing more to read here.

I'd say that's the bare minimum a tank should do in ESO.

Supporting the group through buffs/debuffs are a major part of being a tank as well.

Now if someone is fake tanking they should be able to survive, and bring decent dps. Group dps should be higher with a fake tank. If group dps would be higher with a real tank wearing a support set than the fake tank is actually just wasting the group slot.

In normals and most vet dungeons it doesn't matter beyond the principal of the point. If you think you're entitled to skip the line, you better have the skills to justify it, and in most cases fake tanks don't. They're just being carried and sometimes they ruin the experience for newer players.

SgtNuttzmeg

The problem is tanking and healing are not required for normal level dungeons. The content is too easy. Especially for higher level characters. Some newer people aren't nessicarily at this level and any form of check will fail as there are tanks in this game that are "true" tanks but because the player is newer they won't have the same stats as a more experienced tank.

With the rise of the new Pale Ring I don't see this problem going away. Tbh as somebody who has faked tanked more times than he can count I would expect to see an increase of people doing this. The best and only way ZOS address this is by increasing the skill floor for tanks. Buffing mechanics so that they mattered more. So that you couldn't run through with a non-tank step-up and be fine. Problem is they can't because of how casual the player base is for this game. It isn't fair to those casual players. So it sucks that this happens but I don't see a good way to actually solve this problem.