Fake Tanking

pelle412

The issue of fake tanks won't go away. The phenomenon is actually becoming more prevalent since more real tanks don't want to bother with the dungeon finder. The skill of DPS players have gone down over the years so the risk vs reward curve for real tanks drives them into pre-made groups. Not all random groups are bad, but a majority leads to unpleasant dungeon runs for tanks that don't have unlimited time.

Phaedryn

I queue with a friend...if we get a fake tank we will immediately block them and initiate a vote kick.

Get in queue and wait your turn like the rest of us, or roll a real tank.

It's rude and insulting to the rest of the group.

josiahva

OmniDo wrote: »

I rarely ever fake-tank normals, but if I wanted to, I could.
There are players who can easily solo any Normal dungeon which doesnt have special mechanics that would otherwise require a 2nd player; interrupts, standing on <x> to activate <y>, etc...

If we're being direct, If I queue as a fank-tank, I will essentially ignore the other participants and solo the dungeon, knowing full well that the others will probably just mosey along behind me.
If the "healer" that winds up in a dungeon with me cannot manage to keep themselves and the other 2 group members alive from splash damage and boss mechanics while I essentially nuke and survive everything mostly myself, then well...they would have likely failed anyway regardless.

This isn't something I do often though, as I rarely ever use the group-finder for Normals anymore.
I only do this to benefit friends or help the occasional newbie, since I have all the gear and copies of gear I would ever need.

With the new system coming out that will allow us to craft whatever gear we have already acquired once, that will invalidate the need to run normals even more, leaving all the trials and tribulations of n00bdom to the next generation.

Why do it at all? You just said you were essentially soloing the dungeon....why ruin someone else's dungeon experience at all if that is the case?

Morwaenna

josiahva wrote: »

OmniDo wrote: »

I rarely ever fake-tank normals, but if I wanted to, I could.
There are players who can easily solo any Normal dungeon which doesnt have special mechanics that would otherwise require a 2nd player; interrupts, standing on <x> to activate <y>, etc...

If we're being direct, If I queue as a fank-tank, I will essentially ignore the other participants and solo the dungeon, knowing full well that the others will probably just mosey along behind me.
If the "healer" that winds up in a dungeon with me cannot manage to keep themselves and the other 2 group members alive from splash damage and boss mechanics while I essentially nuke and survive everything mostly myself, then well...they would have likely failed anyway regardless.

This isn't something I do often though, as I rarely ever use the group-finder for Normals anymore.
I only do this to benefit friends or help the occasional newbie, since I have all the gear and copies of gear I would ever need.

With the new system coming out that will allow us to craft whatever gear we have already acquired once, that will invalidate the need to run normals even more, leaving all the trials and tribulations of n00bdom to the next generation.

Why do it at all? You just said you were essentially soloing the dungeon....why ruin someone else's dungeon experience at all if that is the case?

Because he's a see you next tuesday. I've had this happen to me where a fake tank or whatever ran a few bosses ahead and killed the final and pledge boss without any of the 3 other participants getting a hit in subsequently wasting our time and having to run the dungeon all over again. Sorry but it should really be a reportable or bannable offence as it's infringing on others gameplay inconsiderately and as he admitted, knowingly.

Husan

I'm currently levelling a stamina DD necro, and I just slotted 1h+shield and a taunt and roll in group finder for a random daily as tank. Queue pops instantly, I hold aggro, I help the other guys kills stuff, everybody is happy.

My main is a templar "healer". I only play as a healer in trials and a "healer" (more of a support buffer/debuffer actually) in my dungeon progression group, and even then only rarely when going for certain no-deaths and hard modes. We usually just 3DD it. Much faster, and since you can skip certain mechanics with enough damage, much safer too. Anyway, I always roll as healer if I'm using group finder to do pledges or something and just DD instead, dropping an occasional breath of life when necessary. Often I end up doing more damage than the other 2 DD combined. Queue pops instantly, I kill stuff, I help keeping them alive, everybody is happy.

So, not only do I "fake" tank, I also "fake" heal. No one ever complained so far. DPS is the name of the game in ESO. Because of that fact I don't think fake roles are a bad thing, in addition to healers being pretty much obsolete, and also because all non-dlc bosses can be tanked with 20k hp. It's just a learn to play issue.

As for the harder content that actually needs a real tank, I've never seen a fake one in 5 years of playing. I've seen some pretty bad ones, but that is a whole different story

VaranisArano

Husan wrote: »

I'm currently levelling a stamina DD necro, and I just slotted 1h+shield and a taunt and roll in group finder for a random daily as tank. Queue pops instantly, I hold aggro, I help the other guys kills stuff, everybody is happy.

My main is a templar "healer". I only play as a healer in trials and a "healer" (more of a support buffer/debuffer actually) in my dungeon progression group, and even then only rarely when going for certain no-deaths and hard modes. We usually just 3DD it. Much faster, and since you can skip certain mechanics with enough damage, much safer too. Anyway, I always roll as healer if I'm using group finder to do pledges or something and just DD instead, dropping an occasional breath of life when necessary. Often I end up doing more damage than the other 2 DD combined. Queue pops instantly, I kill stuff, I help keeping them alive, everybody is happy.

So, not only do I "fake" tank, I also "fake" heal. No one ever complained so far. DPS is the name of the game in ESO. Because of that fact I don't think fake roles are a bad thing, in addition to healers being pretty much obsolete, and also because all non-dlc bosses can be tanked with 20k hp. It's just a learn to play issue.

As for the harder content that actually needs a real tank, I've never seen a fake one in 5 years of playing. I've seen some pretty bad ones, but that is a whole different story

If you hold boss aggro and don't die, awesome!

The fake tanks I deal with are the sort where my healer is facetanking the boss for them or, worse, the boss is chasing some squishy new DD who doesn't realize I'd heal him better if he stood still.

kichwas

Sarannah wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

If a tank fails to do *their job they're exposed very early on in the run....vote to kick as I'm sure the entire group would approve since running for your life left and right gets old fast!

To be fair, this isn't always the tanks fault. When DPS pulls a group, a tank has to re-aggro them one-by-one. Which might take a while since everyone is running everywhere to stay alive, and mobs also run to the furthest players. Worst is, DPS actually think runs go faster when they pull groups.

Yep.

And... the above it pretty true in just about any MMO other than Guild Wars 2. It's only not true there because they don't have tanks outside of raids... so... yeah... Basically it's the MMO of 'all the things that ruin groups in other games are the right way to do it here'... It's also funny that Guild Wars 2 is the ONLY MMO where I don't have the other DPS trying to pull everything first... I keep getting shy groups there and I end up having to do pulls for them because... all the people that should be here are there and vice versa...

I've been mostly a tank since 2007 and this has been going on in every MMO I've played in since then.

You always get those fools who try to 'speed things up' by running ahead and pulling and unless you outgear a place it so often results in chaos of things running in every random direction... and who gets blamed for that? Yeah - the tank that didn't cause the issue in the first place.

It's even worse here where there is no set aggro table and no 'aoe threat' moves. Where 'taunt' is a single target 15-second item... if the stack runs in 5 different directions I have to quickly decide where the most important piece of it is, go there, and grab what I can... and the rest of it... that's just too bad.

Since most trash pulls in this game involve a few hundred mobs at a time... and you can only taunt one of them at a time... it's kinda going to be a mess like that even in a well controlled pull unless it's a boss fight. So the game itself here trains people to behave badly. A bit like my Guild Wars 2 comment above. If you're playing a paper tiger here that can't handle the aggro of 3-27 mobs on you, you should stay out of dungeons... because even if you play right, you're going to get them. I simply cannot spam the taunt button that fast and even when I can, about 30% of them will get wasted on the air or a repeat mob in that stick stack of 351 different rats in front of me...

It's kind of weird that the MMO with the largest crowds of trash pulls is also the one where tanks can only single target taunt and don't have increased aggro/threat/enmity... but it is what it is...

I go play WoW of FFXIV and I have single button moves that give me locked down threat on everything from California to Texas... and yet the pull size is usually 1 to 3 mobs... so much power, so wasted... the literal opposite of here. It's kinda what makes it funner here - more chaos.

Don't make it even worse by messing up the pull... at least when the tank does the pull I have solid odds of holding most of the heavy hitters.

Iselin

It's a systems issue that will always exist as long as the group finder does roles on the honor system.

A good system would have checks on builds that you must meet in order to queue as tank or healer. But with the group finder issues in this game for 6+ years I have to wonder what else they'd mess up if they try to add a change like this to it.

kichwas

Iselin wrote: »

It's a systems issue that will always exist as long as the group finder does roles on the honor system.

A good system would have checks on builds that you must meet in order to queue as tank or healer.

That itself could be the messup.

What builds would qualify?

At various points people going off meta have made good tanks with frost staff or even just the undaunted ranged taunt. These are almost never considered meta - but in the hands of the right player they do well.

Yet if we make the check 'has a taunt on the skillbar or a frost staff equipped'... in the hands of many other players the issues with those builds become rapidly apparent.

So how do we let someone who can play a 'high skill floor' build play it, but keep it from being played by a less skilled player in who's hands it will be even worse than a 'fake tank'?

That's the problem of a game with so much build variety... the moment you start to officially police the builds, you create a lot of bad fallout.

OmniDo

Morwaenna wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Why do it at all? You just said you were essentially soloing the dungeon....why ruin someone else's dungeon experience at all if that is the case?

Because he's a see you next tuesday. I've had this happen to me where a fake tank or whatever ran a few bosses ahead and killed the final and pledge boss without any of the 3 other participants getting a hit in subsequently wasting our time and having to run the dungeon all over again. Sorry but it should really be a reportable or bannable offence as it's infringing on others gameplay inconsiderately and as he admitted, knowingly.

Thankfully for the groups that end up with me, I'm not that much of a Mannimarco.
I do actually wait for the rest of the group, I just don't need them there to complete the dungeon, and I definitely don't need to be an actual "tank" in proper tanking gear or with proper tanking skills in order to both heal and DPS.
In all actuality, I queue as a "Tank" but am in full Veteran Healer mode.
Extra damage from Trial Set gear, practical invulnerability due to recovery and healing output, and maximum aggro due to damage output exceeding my group's total by 50-75%.

And to answer Josiah's question: "Because I usually am chain-farming the same dungeon, and it's just faster to queue up the role than to exit the dungeon and wait for it to reset."

Iarao

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.

Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.

So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.

zos needs to prevent this from happening. to tank in a group dungeon pug, you MUST be a tank. they can fix it. and what ya gonna do if the dps queues up with a friend? cant kick. you are gonna have to leave.

newtinmpls

idk wrote: »

There are two very easy ways to avoid fake tanks.

1. Form your own group which keep the fake tanks out of the picture entirely. Also helps ensure smooth runs with the GF cannot.
2. Vote kick the tank. They keep queueing as a fake tank because people allow it. The people who do not vote kick a fake tank, or at least try to, are the real problem.

Well said.

I will admit I'm fairly quick to vote to kick if the tank has no taunt. It's questionable if they seem to have a taunt, but no pulls or lockdowns.

newtinmpls

OmniDo wrote: »

If we're being direct, If I queue as a fank-tank, I will essentially ignore the other participants and solo the dungeon, knowing full well that the others will probably just mosey along behind me..

If a "tank" gets too far ahead, I will politely ask them to slow down.

If they get to the first boss fight way ahead of the rest of us; at that point they are messing with my drops and I vote to kick.

Grandchamp1989

I have 4 tanks but sometimes if I have to help someone power level I grab my DPS and put inner rage on him to taunt and burn bosses.

Honestly with CP points and meta gear you can tank normal dungeons with a DD better than if you're a level 30 tank with random gear and no CP points.

It takes so little effort to slot a taunt on your bar, and it's so lazy when fake tanks don't do it.

Inner rage - rotation - block/dodge heavies, repeat.

Curious_Death

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.

Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.

So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.

is also not fair to que as DPS and do 9k damage per second - u re fake DD - a roleplayer that doesnt care how long others will stuck with you in dungeon... selfish ppl thinks only about themself... and thats why i stop playing as tank random dungeon coz 75% dps cant even pass NORMAL DLC.

svendf

Problem when fa

Husan wrote: »

I'm currently levelling a stamina DD necro, and I just slotted 1h+shield and a taunt and roll in group finder for a random daily as tank. Queue pops instantly, I hold aggro, I help the other guys kills stuff, everybody is happy.

My main is a templar "healer". I only play as a healer in trials and a "healer" (more of a support buffer/debuffer actually) in my dungeon progression group, and even then only rarely when going for certain no-deaths and hard modes. We usually just 3DD it. Much faster, and since you can skip certain mechanics with enough damage, much safer too. Anyway, I always roll as healer if I'm using group finder to do pledges or something and just DD instead, dropping an occasional breath of life when necessary. Often I end up doing more damage than the other 2 DD combined. Queue pops instantly, I kill stuff, I help keeping them alive, everybody is happy.

So, not only do I "fake" tank, I also "fake" heal. No one ever complained so far. DPS is the name of the game in ESO. Because of that fact I don't think fake roles are a bad thing, in addition to healers being pretty much obsolete, and also because all non-dlc bosses can be tanked with 20k hp. It's just a learn to play issue.

As for the harder content that actually needs a real tank, I've never seen a fake one in 5 years of playing. I've seen some pretty bad ones, but that is a whole different story

[snip]

I don´t know what platform you are on, but what I know is that you are taking a spot from my tank, when fake tanking, taking a spot from my healer, when fake healing. The only time you can´t take my place in a group is, when I que on onne of my three dds

I don´t care how long the que times are for dds I solved it by makeing three healers and now leveliing my 2nd tank and a really good feeling that is (will go for my 3rd as well ).

Few are faking, but they have a huge impact on people´s playing experience in the game - a negative one.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

KaGaOri

Curious_Death wrote: »

is also not fair to que as DPS and do 9k damage per second - u re fake DD - a roleplayer that doesnt care how long others will stuck with you in dungeon... selfish ppl thinks only about themself... and thats why i stop playing as tank random dungeon coz 75% dps cant even pass NORMAL DLC.

There is big difference between ppl failing their role (incompetence) and ppl not even trying to fulfill their role bcs screw you guys (malice). Just saying.

AyaDark

Try to get fake Party:
1-fake heal
2-fake tank
3-fake dps
4-fake dps.

Catch them all, pokemo.... elders scrolls random party

I watch twich of one girl yesterday 250+ tank with 2 fake dds and heal in some not DLC.

They can not kill boss there and tank play really not bad. She play well, but DD with ZERO damage

One of dd was 810+.

It was so funny to see, but when i was tank i burn like hell, now when i am dd and easely solo it it is funny, but my eyes bleeding.

AyaDark

Iselin wrote: »

It's a systems issue that will always exist as long as the group finder does roles on the honor system.

A good system would have checks on builds that you must meet in order to queue as tank or healer. But with the group finder issues in this game for 6+ years I have to wonder what else they'd mess up if they try to add a change like this to it.

Newer see anything such an absurd.

So how will you check DD in full meta 810 + but who make 2 k dps or non meta tank, who play perfect and do his job ?

Now as example i go randoms sometimes. With meta checks, nope. No good player will go there. I better solo it than.

And how do you check gear ? Who can concider standarts ?

idk

Iselin wrote: »

It's a systems issue that will always exist as long as the group finder does roles on the honor system.

A good system would have checks on builds that you must meet in order to queue as tank or healer. But with the group finder issues in this game for 6+ years I have to wonder what else they'd mess up if they try to add a change like this to it.

@Iselin

Ok, so a taunt is required to be a tank. In ESO that is the basic requirement for being a tank and considering the fluid nature of build possibilities and the lack of a true trinity that is all that is required.

So I unlock a taunt, maybe even slot it on my bar to "pass the test". Queue pops and I go about being a DPS, maybe even remove the taunt from my bar, and go about my day.

That is exactly how such a "good system" would work in ESO. It is pointless for Zos to add such a useless system to the GF.

BTW, again, those who do not even try to vote kick the fake tank are the real culprits because they are choosing to allow such behavior.

svendf

How may dds have 35-40k in health ? How many dds have 25-30k resistance with buffs or without (or even above that)? How many dds have two taunts in slot ? Many real tanks have and I have.(inner fire and piercing)

How many dds have a pull or portal in slot for adds ?

Meta is for score runs and not needed for runs other than that. Builds can be checked.

Real tanks are real. Fakes are fakes. It can be checked and should be.

Veles

We kick such fake tanks at last boss. He had fake role so he got fake dung.

AyaDark

svendf wrote: »

How may dds have 35-40k in health ? How many dds have 25-30k resistance with buffs or without (or even above that)? How many dds have two taunts in slot ? Many real tanks have and I have.(inner fire and piercing)

How many dds have a pull or portal in slot for adds ?

Meta is for score runs and not needed for runs other than that. Builds can be checked.

Real tanks are real. Fakes are fakes. It can be checked and should be.

I can do tank with 10 k hp that will be impossible to kill.

I can mass agro with no agr sloted.

I can pull mobs by monster set or dps adds as hard, that it will be no need in it.

Teso is a game where a some one with brain is not limited.

So you say - you play teso becouse it is not like other game, make the game stupid like other game, that i do not play and others do not want to play ?

It can not be checked. And what is a real tank ? I can have 4 agro sloted and do not use any.

Or i can have 0 aggr and do not lose agr of any mob.

A lot of players can solo it, why only fake tank ?

Why not fake heal, dd, tank.

Fake player ? The one who play bad ?

And i know a lot of players who just say - ok.

And you will wait 5 hours to find tank. Not 20 minutes.

Becouse people who play really well will not go there any more. It will not be interesting for them.

And they even will not help people, because of changes like that
They will say: I really like the way like it was, why will i go help some one who ruin my favorite gamestyle ?

Do you know why you can not find tanks in randoms ? Because of your self, you ruin any fun to play tank.

My main was tank 2-3 years ago, i really love it.

AyaDark

Veles wrote: »

We kick such fake tanks at last boss. He had fake role so he got fake dung.

Kick is really good solution.

If some body do not do his role, and 3 players think so, it is no problem.

Very good way to avoid fakes.

Joinovikova

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.

Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.

So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.

if ZOS stop buly pvp players and make undaunted passives works only in dungeons and trials the fake takn will be no more.... DPS quue avareage time 30mins tank avarage time 1 min.. and not DLC dunegeon really do not need real tank it justg make thing slower

AyaDark

I really love when you can put on 3 roles tank+heal+dd. Or some combination of them.

Now even 1 role is a problem for some people.

Why do people think that problem is in fake tanks, not in fake themselves ?
And yes tank is needed only for vDLC - do not take away tanks last fun !

BeefcakeManwich

A DD with high cp can usually tank a normal dungeon. Sometimes the dungeon go super quick. But a DD tank and no taunt. Hell no. I've been stuck in pugs like that. I've learned to leave group before things get toxic. The best one was being stuck with a kitting tank. Not sure what they were smoking.

VaranisArano

idk wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

It's a systems issue that will always exist as long as the group finder does roles on the honor system.

A good system would have checks on builds that you must meet in order to queue as tank or healer. But with the group finder issues in this game for 6+ years I have to wonder what else they'd mess up if they try to add a change like this to it.

Iselin

Ok, so a taunt is required to be a tank. In ESO that is the basic requirement for being a tank and considering the fluid nature of build possibilities and the lack of a true trinity that is all that is required.

So I unlock a taunt, maybe even slot it on my bar to "pass the test". Queue pops and I go about being a DPS, maybe even remove the taunt from my bar, and go about my day.

That is exactly how such a "good system" would work in ESO. It is pointless for Zos to add such a useless system to the GF.

BTW, again, those who do not even try to vote kick the fake tank are the real culprits because they are choosing to allow such behavior.

The fake tank is the culprit. Those who refuse to kick are enablers. And I say that as someone who's enabled fake tanks because the dungeon will be done quicker if my healer or DD facetanks the boss instead of waiting for a replacement.

PrimusNephilim

This is on ZOS to correct, not players kicking players, they push the players to grind for gear, grind for achievements but what we have is a broken system, so what we have here is a simple case of cause and effect for any group setting in society, people don't want to wait an hour to run a dungeon, but the issue of fake tanks would evaporate (just about) if the queue times for DPS's weren't so disastrously long. The group finder is broken, the wait times for DPS's is absolutely ridiculous and only when ZOS takes this situation seriously and finds a working solution, we'll continue to have DPS players queuing as tanks.

PN

Sarannah

ZOS should hire personnel to play dungeons(mostly normals), and give every fake role an increasingly large accountwide groupfinder ban. First offense is a one week groupfinder ban, the second offense is a two week groupfinder ban, third a month groupfinder ban, fourth a 3 months groupfinder ban, 5th offense a six months groupfinder ban, etc. Even just the risk of getting such bans will scare most players away from fakeroles. And only for fake roles, not for players who are just bad at their roles!
Maybe even find a way for players to do this themselves, after which ZOS can check and issue the groupfinderban if needed.

As it shows clear in this thread, some players rather waste three other player's time TWICE(due to re-queue) than queue for their real role. And use whatever excuse they tell themselves, just to not feel bad about it. Peeps like that should be stopped, as it is incredibly harmfull for the game itself.