Fake Tanking

josiahva

Liukke wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.

Nah... and I can't believe I've defending a fake tank here but to be fair, I feel like someone dying at the final boss in Spindleclutch 1 isn't a legit complaint at the moment given how the boss is bugged and has a move that locks you in a running on the spot movement. I can solo that dungeon too and was in there with a group a couple days ago where we all died multiple times because of it.

Yeah but that's you.
Think of it from a "newbie" perspective.

You queue for a dungeon, you get into it and the final boss just slaps and oneshots you.
All this because the tank didn't keep it for himself.

Of course it's Spindleclutch and it's bugged as hell but this might happen in other vet dungeons as well.

We are not all endgame players.
There's people "trying" vet dungeons and they need all the support from a 4 people team.

You can solo it?
Yeah sure but every once in a while the boss is turning around and slapping people, which usually is the duty of a tank to perform.

The whole point is not if people can solo vet dungeons, is if it's right for somebody to decide to take out the tank role from a queue just by switching it.
I can happily decide for myself but forcing 3 other people to bear with my stupidity is maybe too much.

She spits at people randomly no matter what...always has, taunt or not....if she turns toward you, you block or you die(vHM anyway). Just FYI on this one...if you climb up on the rock near the entrance she can't hit you....useful for soloing HM with a low health character or for groups having a particularly hard time.

renne

Liukke wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.

Nah... and I can't believe I've defending a fake tank here but to be fair, I feel like someone dying at the final boss in Spindleclutch 1 isn't a legit complaint at the moment given how the boss is bugged and has a move that locks you in a running on the spot movement. I can solo that dungeon too and was in there with a group a couple days ago where we all died multiple times because of it.

Yeah but that's you.
Think of it from a "newbie" perspective.

You queue for a dungeon, you get into it and the final boss just slaps and oneshots you.
All this because the tank didn't keep it for himself.

Of course it's Spindleclutch and it's bugged as hell but this might happen in other vet dungeons as well.

We are not all endgame players.
There's people "trying" vet dungeons and they need all the support from a 4 people team.

You can solo it?
Yeah sure but every once in a while the boss is turning around and slapping people, which usually is the duty of a tank to perform.

The whole point is not if people can solo vet dungeons, is if it's right for somebody to decide to take out the tank role from a queue just by switching it.
I can happily decide for myself but forcing 3 other people to bear with my stupidity is maybe too much.

????

I was literally defending the fake tank ONLY in this one situation because that boss is bugged. If you've read any of this thread you'd know I'm absolutely against fake tanks.

Also as josiahva said, she'll slap you anyway, regardless of taunt. There are bosses who have mechanics like that, regardless of taunt, and "newbies" are going to get oneshot if they don't know & know how to avoid, regardless of real tank or fake tank.

My comment on being able to solo the dungeon was to show that while I'm experienced enough I can do it even without other people or a tank, we all still died repeatedly BECAUSE of the boss's bug.

Rastaman111

Ok thats a first been playing as a tank for years, argonian dragonknight. Using taunt on enemies and bosses.

Hardly ever die full leaching set works wonders. And the ring of the wild hunt really helps avoiding mass damage attacks sometimes i am the only alive when dealing with the final boss somehow....

Liukke

renne wrote: »

Liukke wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.

Nah... and I can't believe I've defending a fake tank here but to be fair, I feel like someone dying at the final boss in Spindleclutch 1 isn't a legit complaint at the moment given how the boss is bugged and has a move that locks you in a running on the spot movement. I can solo that dungeon too and was in there with a group a couple days ago where we all died multiple times because of it.

Yeah but that's you.
Think of it from a "newbie" perspective.

You queue for a dungeon, you get into it and the final boss just slaps and oneshots you.
All this because the tank didn't keep it for himself.

Of course it's Spindleclutch and it's bugged as hell but this might happen in other vet dungeons as well.

We are not all endgame players.
There's people "trying" vet dungeons and they need all the support from a 4 people team.

You can solo it?
Yeah sure but every once in a while the boss is turning around and slapping people, which usually is the duty of a tank to perform.

The whole point is not if people can solo vet dungeons, is if it's right for somebody to decide to take out the tank role from a queue just by switching it.
I can happily decide for myself but forcing 3 other people to bear with my stupidity is maybe too much.

????

I was literally defending the fake tank ONLY in this one situation because that boss is bugged. If you've read any of this thread you'd know I'm absolutely against fake tanks.

Also as josiahva said, she'll slap you anyway, regardless of taunt. There are bosses who have mechanics like that, regardless of taunt, and "newbies" are going to get oneshot if they don't know & know how to avoid, regardless of real tank or fake tank.

My comment on being able to solo the dungeon was to show that while I'm experienced enough I can do it even without other people or a tank, we all still died repeatedly BECAUSE of the boss's bug.

Of course and you're right.

I didn't mean to bash you, I just wanted to point out that people like you (and me) might see this issue a bit softer, because honestly we are not impacted that much. I've done lots of vet dungeons without tanks or healers, if I see one faking the role I'm just like "meh, need to change gear for myself".

To me it feels like blaming bugs might "soften" other issues or just distract from the main topic.
I honestly don't care how bugged those dungeons are, it doesn't make the death defendable or any less awfull for casual players, especially when on top of that your party member is not doing what he/she queued up for.

New players need to learn those mechanics, and it's quite a big struggle also because the overland difficulty is an insult to human intellect the only way they can learn something is from vet dungeons, they are the first step towards organised playing.

Having fake roles around is purely egoistic and entirely aimed to bring home those transmutation crystals, it doesn't help anybody but who faked it if they also die because of it then well, it's sad for the others.
A newbie partying with fakes will get 2 things, either a fast run or a messy dungeon, in both cases will learn nothing from it.

Michaelkeir

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

My question is how many vet dlc dungeons did you back out of doing this method?

My experience is when I que as a DPS or healer I mostly que for vet dlc dungeons because base game dungeons bore me to tears. And I’ve had quite a few “fake tanks” pop in with this same mindset, with no taunt mind you, and 1 of 2 things happen.
(A) They immediately drop group once they load in and realize they can’t complete this dungeon without a real tank.
or
(B) They try and brute force their way to the first boss and then get popped with a 1 shot or one of the other DPS and or healer gets killed due to expecting a actual tank with a taunt but get a DPS pretending to be a tank and aren’t prepared to handle it. Eventually fake tank drops.

Either scenario ends with wasting everyone’s time and builds frustration. Hence why I have created multiple real tanks for just such an occasion.

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

If I get into a dg and the healer or the tank becomes werewolf I leave without saying a word. I don't even waste time. Since I usually play either as a healer or as a tank, I don't wait much until I get called again.

And to this, I have to ask why would you back out if a tank turns into a werewolf? Tormentor set exist and makes werewolf tanks viable for most content. I have a dedicated werewolf tank and I’ve cleared all dlc vet and base game dungeons on it in werewolf form. Some even with no healer and it works just fine. I use Tormentor set with either Ebon, or Alkosh, or a set deigned to give me as much survivability as possible if running with no healer made all the more easier with the new Pale Ring.

Joined a random pug in March of Sacrifices for the daily a few days ago and soon as I turned I started getting called out for being a bad tank even before the 1st mob by a DPS and the healer. They proceeded to belittle me even after I linked my gear to show them I was not some fake tank. Even had my personality on from that very dungeon and linked that too just to prove a point. So healer decided to announce if I don’t change back he wasn’t going to heal me. I waited for a vote kick but one never came, so I proceeded to tank the dungeon with no problems what so ever keeping taunt on mobs and even rezzing the group on last boss when they failed to get of the boss’s aoe fire ground attack. Needless to say the main 2 ones complaining fell silent halfway through the dungeon. After we cleared the 2 complainers immediately left group without saying a word while the DPS that didn’t complain sent me a message telling me how I made those two look stupid and asking me to tank the other 2 dailies for him and a group mate of his.

So if a tank morphs into a werewolf at least wait to see how he does before leaving. If a healer does it, well I can’t make an excuse for that, lol.

LashanW

I've ran into a funny fake tank + healer duo a couple of times in random normals when I queued as DD. This fake tank is a stamblade who is medicore in terms of dps and is not aware of some ez tanking methods in some dlc dungeons, he queues as tank but never taunts. DDs can't kick him because his healer friend doesn't allow vote kick to go through.

1. Unhallowed grave - I didn't have a smooth experience due to uncontrolled klin boss and tank mechanic failure. My several requests of asking the "tank" to slot a taunt fell on deaf ears. I sucked it up went with it tho.

2. Scalecaller peak - Different day, but I immediately recognized this duo. A smile on my face because I knew this dungeon like the back of my hand (I had challenger achievements here across all 3 roles and Mountain God achievement as DD) When I joined, I was the only DD and these two were already at first boss. My guess is the 2 previous DDs left after wiping here. Another DD also quickly joined and we arrive at first boss.

• Ogre duo boss - The glorious stamblade fake tank still not taunting. Melee boss chased random people and decided to focus me, my inner troll mode engaged so I backed away on to the ranged boss. Enraged poison -> wipe. Did this several times and the tank + healer duo had no idea why everybody was taking so much damage and dying, other DD however kept yelling at the tank to not stack the bosses. I stopped it after a few attempts tho.
• Giant Matriach boss - when we reached here I stopped outside boss "arena" and checked map because other DD was lagging behind. Tank + healer duo start the boss anyways, and she comes after me (coz nobody is taunting). Instant reset as I was technically outside boss room. It's the place where DDs and healer stack for ez burn. I stayed here all the time and several times boss came after me, causing resets every time. Finally healer spoke and says "maybe come inside the room?". I responded in an innocent way "But I saw alcast say this spot is best spot for DDs and healer!, I don't understand why boss come to me " I went inside after I had my fun.
• Other bosses didn't present any such troll opportunities and they were killed quick due to dps from 3 dds.

It's so much fun when incompetent dps players without good knowledge about dlc dungeons step into them as "tanks". All the issues of the above stamblade would've been resolved if he slotted a taunt in backbar. A stamblade can easily face tank any dlc dungeon on normal and they have enough flex spots on the back bar to slot undaunted taunt with zero dps loss (if they use the taunt that gives them 5% dps boost). They didn't do it even after told to, and carried a healer buddy to make sure nobody can kick them. What goes in their minds is beyond me.

renne

Liukke wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Liukke wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.

Nah... and I can't believe I've defending a fake tank here but to be fair, I feel like someone dying at the final boss in Spindleclutch 1 isn't a legit complaint at the moment given how the boss is bugged and has a move that locks you in a running on the spot movement. I can solo that dungeon too and was in there with a group a couple days ago where we all died multiple times because of it.

Yeah but that's you.
Think of it from a "newbie" perspective.

You queue for a dungeon, you get into it and the final boss just slaps and oneshots you.
All this because the tank didn't keep it for himself.

Of course it's Spindleclutch and it's bugged as hell but this might happen in other vet dungeons as well.

We are not all endgame players.
There's people "trying" vet dungeons and they need all the support from a 4 people team.

You can solo it?
Yeah sure but every once in a while the boss is turning around and slapping people, which usually is the duty of a tank to perform.

The whole point is not if people can solo vet dungeons, is if it's right for somebody to decide to take out the tank role from a queue just by switching it.
I can happily decide for myself but forcing 3 other people to bear with my stupidity is maybe too much.

????

I was literally defending the fake tank ONLY in this one situation because that boss is bugged. If you've read any of this thread you'd know I'm absolutely against fake tanks.

Also as josiahva said, she'll slap you anyway, regardless of taunt. There are bosses who have mechanics like that, regardless of taunt, and "newbies" are going to get oneshot if they don't know & know how to avoid, regardless of real tank or fake tank.

My comment on being able to solo the dungeon was to show that while I'm experienced enough I can do it even without other people or a tank, we all still died repeatedly BECAUSE of the boss's bug.

Of course and you're right.

I didn't mean to bash you, I just wanted to point out that people like you (and me) might see this issue a bit softer, because honestly we are not impacted that much. I've done lots of vet dungeons without tanks or healers, if I see one faking the role I'm just like "meh, need to change gear for myself".

To me it feels like blaming bugs might "soften" other issues or just distract from the main topic.
I honestly don't care how bugged those dungeons are, it doesn't make the death defendable or any less awfull for casual players, especially when on top of that your party member is not doing what he/she queued up for.

New players need to learn those mechanics, and it's quite a big struggle also because the overland difficulty is an insult to human intellect the only way they can learn something is from vet dungeons, they are the first step towards organised playing.

Having fake roles around is purely egoistic and entirely aimed to bring home those transmutation crystals, it doesn't help anybody but who faked it if they also die because of it then well, it's sad for the others.
A newbie partying with fakes will get 2 things, either a fast run or a messy dungeon, in both cases will learn nothing from it.

Nah, you're good. This is literally the only kind of situation I'd ever defend someone being called a fake tank, only because with bugs like this (which has been fixed now, thank god, so no excuses anymore!) it's real easy to look like you're incompetent even if you mightn't be, especially when no one else sees the bug animations.

You're also right that I probably do see the issue a bit softer, mostly because apart from a few occasions, it's an inconvenience for me, rather than a game stopping issue, which absolutely it can be for the newbies.

And learning the dungeon mechanics is one of the reasons I get annoyed at people in this thread who talk about queuing as a fake tank so they can blast through the content and think they're being super helpful to everyone else in the group. Sure, if it's obvious everyone is on the same page it might be, but if you've got people - regardless of their apparent level - who've never done the dungeon before, who've not done the quest (especially for quests that require you to wait around for NPCS to turn up, Vaults of Madness I am looking at you), who want to learn so they can go on to vet content, these people aren't "helping" them in the slightest.

Ackwalan

LashanW wrote: »

I've ran into a funny fake tank + healer duo a couple of times in random normals when I queued as DD. This fake tank is a stamblade who is medicore in terms of dps and is not aware of some ez tanking methods in some dlc dungeons, he queues as tank but never taunts. DDs can't kick him because his healer friend doesn't allow vote kick to go through.

1. Unhallowed grave - I didn't have a smooth experience due to uncontrolled klin boss and tank mechanic failure. My several requests of asking the "tank" to slot a taunt fell on deaf ears. I sucked it up went with it tho.

2. Scalecaller peak - Different day, but I immediately recognized this duo. A smile on my face because I knew this dungeon like the back of my hand (I had challenger achievements here across all 3 roles and Mountain God achievement as DD) When I joined, I was the only DD and these two were already at first boss. My guess is the 2 previous DDs left after wiping here. Another DD also quickly joined and we arrive at first boss.

• Ogre duo boss - The glorious stamblade fake tank still not taunting. Melee boss chased random people and decided to focus me, my inner troll mode engaged so I backed away on to the ranged boss. Enraged poison -> wipe. Did this several times and the tank + healer duo had no idea why everybody was taking so much damage and dying, other DD however kept yelling at the tank to not stack the bosses. I stopped it after a few attempts tho.
• Giant Matriach boss - when we reached here I stopped outside boss "arena" and checked map because other DD was lagging behind. Tank + healer duo start the boss anyways, and she comes after me (coz nobody is taunting). Instant reset as I was technically outside boss room. It's the place where DDs and healer stack for ez burn. I stayed here all the time and several times boss came after me, causing resets every time. Finally healer spoke and says "maybe come inside the room?". I responded in an innocent way "But I saw alcast say this spot is best spot for DDs and healer!, I don't understand why boss come to me " I went inside after I had my fun.
• Other bosses didn't present any such troll opportunities and they were killed quick due to dps from 3 dds.

It's so much fun when incompetent dps players without good knowledge about dlc dungeons step into them as "tanks". All the issues of the above stamblade would've been resolved if he slotted a taunt in backbar. A stamblade can easily face tank any dlc dungeon on normal and they have enough flex spots on the back bar to slot undaunted taunt with zero dps loss (if they use the taunt that gives them 5% dps boost). They didn't do it even after told to, and carried a healer buddy to make sure nobody can kick them. What goes in their minds is beyond me.

So you carried the pair to finish the dungeon for them. Who got trolled here?

renne

Ackwalan wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

I've ran into a funny fake tank + healer duo a couple of times in random normals when I queued as DD. This fake tank is a stamblade who is medicore in terms of dps and is not aware of some ez tanking methods in some dlc dungeons, he queues as tank but never taunts. DDs can't kick him because his healer friend doesn't allow vote kick to go through.

1. Unhallowed grave - I didn't have a smooth experience due to uncontrolled klin boss and tank mechanic failure. My several requests of asking the "tank" to slot a taunt fell on deaf ears. I sucked it up went with it tho.

2. Scalecaller peak - Different day, but I immediately recognized this duo. A smile on my face because I knew this dungeon like the back of my hand (I had challenger achievements here across all 3 roles and Mountain God achievement as DD) When I joined, I was the only DD and these two were already at first boss. My guess is the 2 previous DDs left after wiping here. Another DD also quickly joined and we arrive at first boss.

• Ogre duo boss - The glorious stamblade fake tank still not taunting. Melee boss chased random people and decided to focus me, my inner troll mode engaged so I backed away on to the ranged boss. Enraged poison -> wipe. Did this several times and the tank + healer duo had no idea why everybody was taking so much damage and dying, other DD however kept yelling at the tank to not stack the bosses. I stopped it after a few attempts tho.
• Giant Matriach boss - when we reached here I stopped outside boss "arena" and checked map because other DD was lagging behind. Tank + healer duo start the boss anyways, and she comes after me (coz nobody is taunting). Instant reset as I was technically outside boss room. It's the place where DDs and healer stack for ez burn. I stayed here all the time and several times boss came after me, causing resets every time. Finally healer spoke and says "maybe come inside the room?". I responded in an innocent way "But I saw alcast say this spot is best spot for DDs and healer!, I don't understand why boss come to me " I went inside after I had my fun.
• Other bosses didn't present any such troll opportunities and they were killed quick due to dps from 3 dds.

It's so much fun when incompetent dps players without good knowledge about dlc dungeons step into them as "tanks". All the issues of the above stamblade would've been resolved if he slotted a taunt in backbar. A stamblade can easily face tank any dlc dungeon on normal and they have enough flex spots on the back bar to slot undaunted taunt with zero dps loss (if they use the taunt that gives them 5% dps boost). They didn't do it even after told to, and carried a healer buddy to make sure nobody can kick them. What goes in their minds is beyond me.

So you carried the pair to finish the dungeon for them. Who got trolled here?

Yeah, why didn't you just bail on a dungeon you knew you could carry them through because of how well you know it and go back into the queue to wait another hour for it to pop!

Kurat

I don't back out from any dungeon. If I get base game vet then its easy to fake tank, if I get dlc then it depends which one. I'm on PC and can change my setup with 1 click. All my dps toons carry heavy armor sets just in case. No need for sword and board. Even mag toons can just equip 1 heavy set on body and have 30-35k hp and 20k+ resistances. Inner fire for taunt and ele drain now debuffs both physical and spell. But most dungeons dont even need that. Just rolldodge bosses heavy attacks and kill everything. With 3 or 4 dps everything dies so fast that mechanics don't even happen. Why gimp your group with a tank, they are dead weight in most dungeons and only make runs slower. Same goes for healers.

Michaelkeir wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

My question is how many vet dlc dungeons did you back out of doing this method?

LashanW

Ackwalan wrote: »

So you carried the pair to finish the dungeon for them. Who got trolled here?

Vote kicking them was not an option. I didn't leave because I waited in the DD queue and didn't want a queue ban, also didn't want to cause even more misery for the other DD who also waited in the DD queue.

Kurat wrote: »

I don't back out from any dungeon. If I get base game vet then its easy to fake tank, if I get dlc then it depends which one. I'm on PC and can change my setup with 1 click. All my dps toons carry heavy armor sets just in case. No need for sword and board. Even mag toons can just equip 1 heavy set on body and have 30-35k hp and 20k+ resistances. Inner fire for taunt and ele drain now debuffs both physical and spell. But most dungeons dont even need that. Just rolldodge bosses heavy attacks and kill everything. With 3 or 4 dps everything dies so fast that mechanics don't even happen. Why gimp your group with a tank, they are dead weight in most dungeons and only make runs slower. Same goes for healers.

Not sure why you quoted me to say this. All I ask from the tank in dungeons is a taunt (doesn't matter what skill you use for this). You description of tanking includes one. You also indicate you know how to handle yourself when you queue for tank role and boss is on you, I'd count myself lucky if I came across someone like that.

WiseSky

I dont always fake tank but when I do

I dress up in Jester outfit and remove all skills and fist the boss.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=c73HX5lqg4Q&t=13s

RodneyRegis

As someone who has just returned to tanking after a couple of years to collect the monster helms, I can tell you that fake DPS is a more significant problem. So many pug DDs don't use AOEs at all. You stack all the mobs and they run around scared of a single one which is chasing them, rather than bringing into the pack, laying down AOEs and letting the tank grab them. I just started vCT pledge, 1st boss, very straightforward. 7 minutes later he's down, the 27k hp bow spammer has died 8 or 9 times so the healer has been trying to rez him. I have to run across the room and interrupt the boss every time he has anyone pinned. The group DPS is 20k, of which I have 6.5k.

tl;dr - a lot of DDs are fake - at least you can spot a fake tank before you start the dungeon.

Zyva

Normals-- healers and tanks both arent needed for 90 percent of the dungeons if the players are max cp and properly geared. "If". End game players who want speed runs will queue with fake roles because they know that,every time.

But not everyone wants a speed run, and not everyone is an end game player, and not everyone is properly geared. The queue system is not perfect.

In a perfect world, people queueing as a fake role would only do that if they could carry their team. Aka, slot a taunt or a heal.

There are huge problem with setting requirements for any role. You are cutting out beginners from using the queue depending on what the requirements are. You are making the dungeon finder take, probably, 10 times longer than it already does. Who sets the requirements and are they going to stifle creativity and off meta builds? Most normals can be done naked or with 4 dps, with fun builds, with roleplay teams, with basically anything you can come up with.

Only vet dlc dungeons increase the difficulty. While there are some who can do these with 3 dps, even on HM at a comfortable level, more want a healer and all want a solid tank. But those tanks often DO, if competent, wear medium armor or support sets. Sometimes even sets worn traditionally by healers. And healers sometimes even run dps sets until last boss. And the dps? How do you stop fake dps? The bane of every tank who hates using the dungeon finder?

At the end of the day. You get what you pay for, as the saying goes. We want to queue fast and already complain how long it can take and it being half broken.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Zyva wrote: »

Normals-- healers and tanks both arent needed for 90 percent of the dungeons if the players are max cp and properly geared. "If". End game players who want speed runs will queue with fake roles because they know that,every time.

let me correct this IF 1 player is max cp and properly geard (cause u can solo 95% of all normal dungons)

Zyva wrote: »

But not everyone wants a speed run

and thats why i need to play slower ? NO! if its to fast for randoms thats there problem, there isnt any kind of rule where it says i have to wait for players which need 20min for 1 add in this time i can normaly clear a whole dungon

DawnsLight65

[/quote] Sure, if it's obvious everyone is on the same page it might be, but if you've got people - regardless of their apparent level - who've never done the dungeon before, who've not done the quest (especially for quests that require you to wait around for NPCS to turn up, Vaults of Madness I am looking at you), who want to learn so they can go on to vet content, these people aren't "helping" them in the slightest. [/quote]

The following turned into a rant. Sorry/not sorry.

I am a CP327 right now. I dungeon both normal and Vet DPS. I have never slotted as a fake tank, my guild has taught me I am not ready to tank even on normal. Some Vet Dungeons I avoid like the Llodus plague, and even some normal DLCs without correct support. I am just not there yet, but I am diligently working toward it.

However, I do have several more serious issues with CP810+s who just blast thru NORMAL dungeons, running ahead and engaging bosses when their lower level team members are still trying to get the quest (for the all important skill point) or just catch up to them, (some dont have the speed perks yet), to get the credit for the undaunted or random daily that requires bosses be cleared by the player, (ie: at least hit them once) which they cannot do if the 810s have already killed them by the time they get there. I have had to redo several dungeons because of that recently.

I have recently had 810 groups either leave the normal dungeon in the MIDDLE OF A BOSS FIGHT because I am not 'good enough to run with them', OR who kick ME out at the beginning because I'm not an 810 like them on a NORMAL dungeon. As a lower level, I should not be the one being forced to leave a normal dungeon, because it is designed for lower levels. As an example, I am not the kid brother holding you back in an adult gym, some 810s in normal are the older brother playing in the children's playground, and kicking the children around/out cause they dont want to have to deal with them.

If you are an 810 in a normal dungeon who is auto-paired with those less leveled than you, suck it up, or dont queue for Normal in the first place. Wait for the questers, wait for the whole team when engaging bosses. If you are tank or healer, do the designated job at the bosses, dont leave your team in a lurch cause you are bored. If you are a tank or healer and you are running ahead to the next boss while the others are still engaging the last one, you ATA. (this is not to be confused with legitimate 'pulling'). And if you get made the designated leader of a normal dungeon group, act like it. The others look to those with more experience.

They have the designation of NORMAL and VET to make sure the lower levels can learn, achieve the quest skill points and random and undaunted dailies without holding back higher level vet players. A normal dungeon is not a entitled 810 playground where no one matters but you,or where you can play Godmode at will. You WILL have lower level team members in a normal dungeon, and they matter.

If you want to blast thru a Normal dungeon with no real care for other players 'cause its boring and you need to be entertained', either get your own group of 4 810s where you all do what you want, including dungeon farming, at whatever slot designation you want, or do a VET DLC where there will be others of your level and you will be challenged.

Now this is not all CP810+s. My 810 guildmates quite frequently go with me on normals. They also do all of the above to protect the other lower levels, not just me. One last night even ungrouped with me, to continue to work with a group of unrelated lower levels in other normal dungeons to help them get thru the undaunted dailies, show them the ropes of tanking, healing, and DPSing on each dungeon they visited. These lower levels werent associated with our guild. But he recognized that teaching them the ropes will make them better players, and therefore improve the game overall for everyone who encounters them.

These kind of CP810s, and there are others outside my guild, positively changed my viewpoint about doing dungeons, and frankly my continuance in the game altogether. And dont get me wrong, they call me out when I do stupid stuff, but I know from their other behavior that it is constructive criticism, not ego. I now know there are higher levels out there who are frankly, just good sports across the board. And there are also NOT good sports out there.

Thanks for listening, this was my TED talk.

sharpshooter2342

PrimusNephilim wrote: »

This is on ZOS to correct, not players kicking players, they push the players to grind for gear, grind for achievements but what we have is a broken system, so what we have here is a simple case of cause and effect for any group setting in society, people don't want to wait an hour to run a dungeon, but the issue of fake tanks would evaporate (just about) if the queue times for DPS's weren't so disastrously long. The group finder is broken, the wait times for DPS's is absolutely ridiculous and only when ZOS takes this situation seriously and finds a working solution, we'll continue to have DPS players queuing as tanks.

PN

The que time for dps is so long because real tanks almost always go with a premade group. They don't que for a random group that the damage is so bad it takes 30 minutes to kill a boss that should take 5 minutes. So it's not all to blame on fake tank or fake healers. Dps should do their research to do decent damage because the longer a boss is up the longer a tank is having to hold it. Getting fatigued running out of resources. Healer is having to babysit dps because they don't have a self heal/shield so sometimes can't provide resources to the tank. Then tank dies fight starts over and what should have taken a very generous hour to complete if it's a dlc dungeon turns in 3+ hours. It's a group effort no matter who is lacking or not doing their job properly. It also helps if people research the content before doing it to have knowledge of basic mechanics.

DawnsLight65

Sharpshootet2342 wrote: »

PrimusNephilim wrote: »

This is on ZOS to correct, not players kicking players, they push the players to grind for gear, grind for achievements but what we have is a broken system, so what we have here is a simple case of cause and effect for any group setting in society, people don't want to wait an hour to run a dungeon, but the issue of fake tanks would evaporate (just about) if the queue times for DPS's weren't so disastrously long. The group finder is broken, the wait times for DPS's is absolutely ridiculous and only when ZOS takes this situation seriously and finds a working solution, we'll continue to have DPS players queuing as tanks.

PN

The que time for dps is so long because real tanks almost always go with a premade group. They don't que for a random group that the damage is so bad it takes 30 minutes to kill a boss that should take 5 minutes. So it's not all to blame on fake tank or fake healers. Dps should do their research to do decent damage because the longer a boss is up the longer a tank is having to hold it. Getting fatigued running out of resources. Healer is having to babysit dps because they don't have a self heal/shield so sometimes can't provide resources to the tank. Then tank dies fight starts over and what should have taken a very generous hour to complete if it's a dlc dungeon turns in 3+ hours. It's a group effort no matter who is lacking or not doing their job properly. It also helps if people research the content before doing it to have knowledge of basic mechanics.

Which is why my guild is watching my work, helping me improve it, and giving me honest feedback on what category I should be in, and what dungeons at my level of damage/evolution. You cannot overestimate the value of a good guild.

sharpshooter2342

josiahva wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Tanks in Vet HM Trials exist to serve DPS and there's VERY rigid lines on what to spec/wear/use. Some Tanks enjoy this very specific playstyle while other people hate it with a passion as it's too limited.

This attitude is the problem. Tanks don't exist to "serve" anyone. As long as its not a leaderboard run tanks(and DPS and heals for that matter) should be able to wear whatever they feel helps them to the job best. Sure...if a tank is running around in Ironblood and Hatchling's Shell(just an example, those really arent very efficient) in a HM trial...all well and good if it helps them survive. The problem is that tanks are treated like buff monkeys forced to wear sets like Alkosh(nothing wrong with Alkosh, I wear it often enough myself if I feel it helps the group) that have stats that are just not any help for a classical tank. DPS tend to look at the tank as an extension of their DPS. Its fine to run things like Alkosh/Yoln/Powerful Assault etc etc...sets that buff damage are great...but being forced into buffing DPS over self-survival is the problem. Who cares if the DPS is lower without those sets being worn by the tank? As long as you meet the minimum DPS checks it doesn't matter at all unless you are doing leaderboard scoring.

Of course the tank should swap sets to whatever the content and group composition calls for, but it should be their choice...not being pigeonholed into it by the group that only cares about their own personal DPS. I'll put it differently...tanks and healers are called upon to sacrifice everything else to buff the DPS....the DPS don't have to sacrifice anything at all. No one makes DPS wear tank or healer sets "for the group". It makes sense for everyone to wear whatever helps the group get through content easiest...but generally tanks and healers are the only ones doing that.

What it all boils down to is that DPS get the attitude listed above...all in the pursuit of the highest damage numbers and being able to skip mechanics. Maybe some DPS should try dropping one of their sets and run Imperium or something of the nature for fights that there is high incoming damage...but we all know that will never happen.

In the end, it is what it is...tanks are forced to wear certain sets and run certain skills if they want to tank certain trials. A good number of tanks will be forever excluded from this content because of this attitude, unless they go in as a DPS and run whatever they want.

I find that as a support player myself that it helps me more to give the group more buffs and debuffs because it makes fights go more quickly. The longer a fight last the more mechanics all players have to go through which in turn will eventually lead to players running out of resources or more time to make mistakes that potentially wipe the group. So wearing sets like yoln/PA or Olo/jorvalds not only helps dps but it makes heals stronger due to higher spell damage. Higher heals= more time to buff or supply resources. More buffs= higher damage output by dps which makes the tanks job a lot easier because they can be confident in the healer and not have to self heal as much. It's group coordination and complimenting sets to get it done very efficiently. It's a TEAM. No matter if it's 4 man or 12 man content. All players should know how to play their roles properly or if they don't then join a beginner guild or look up videos or even ask others for help. A bad dps makes it not enjoyable for support players just as well as bad support make it not enjoyable for dps players.

sharpshooter2342

DawnsLight65 wrote: »

Sharpshootet2342 wrote: »

PrimusNephilim wrote: »

This is on ZOS to correct, not players kicking players, they push the players to grind for gear, grind for achievements but what we have is a broken system, so what we have here is a simple case of cause and effect for any group setting in society, people don't want to wait an hour to run a dungeon, but the issue of fake tanks would evaporate (just about) if the queue times for DPS's weren't so disastrously long. The group finder is broken, the wait times for DPS's is absolutely ridiculous and only when ZOS takes this situation seriously and finds a working solution, we'll continue to have DPS players queuing as tanks.

PN

The que time for dps is so long because real tanks almost always go with a premade group. They don't que for a random group that the damage is so bad it takes 30 minutes to kill a boss that should take 5 minutes. So it's not all to blame on fake tank or fake healers. Dps should do their research to do decent damage because the longer a boss is up the longer a tank is having to hold it. Getting fatigued running out of resources. Healer is having to babysit dps because they don't have a self heal/shield so sometimes can't provide resources to the tank. Then tank dies fight starts over and what should have taken a very generous hour to complete if it's a dlc dungeon turns in 3+ hours. It's a group effort no matter who is lacking or not doing their job properly. It also helps if people research the content before doing it to have knowledge of basic mechanics.

Which is why my guild is watching my work, helping me improve it, and giving me honest feedback on what category I should be in, and what dungeons at my level of damage/evolution. You cannot overestimate the value of a good guild.

You are absolutely right. Having a guild with good experienced players to help is great. I remember what it's like to be an inexperienced player. I had a friend help me with builds and how sets work together and each type of content pve/pvp is different which requires different builds and gear. I'm always willing to help if someone says they have the quest or whatever for a dungeon even if I fake que. I only fake que tank if I'm in a group of at least 2 other friends I know won't have any issue. Usually we manage fine even doing vet pledges without proper tanks and healers but there are some dungeons that we know we need a tank so we try to get a tank from que. It's just a matter of getting comfortable and learning the content.

Grandchamp1989

Raideen wrote: »

A good fake tank is better than a bad real tank.

Personally I like to queue as a fake tank on my DPS templar, and have my GF queue as a fake healer on her DPS sorc for vanilla normals.


The issue I have come across lately is fake healers, or just lazy ones. I had a healer in a vet earlier do the least amount of DPS and the least amount of healing. I was on a sorc and I was top healing. The other DPS was second for healing, our tank was 3rd for healing and our healer was last place for healing. 810cp and a vet...go figure.

Lazy healers are an in-game plague.

they just stand there and spam regen every 10 seconds.. praise yourself lucky if you get an orb.

So Many healers just looking to get carried. It is not uncommen for me as tank to be 50% or more of group heal.

So Many awful healers with no major courage/war horn. Bad uptime on combat prayer and barely any orb or healing..

Sometimes they even pull and i have seen healers stand in massive stupid. Like.. you are meant to keep US alive and you Can barely keep yourself alive?

Like.. why are you even here? What is the value?

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

I've come to the realisation, after having a few dungeons now with both fake tank and fake healing, that I would much prefer a fake healer - so I don't have to worry about slotting my own self heals.

Also, i *hate* when a fake tank hovers back with a thumb up their a** waiting for someone else to take the initiative.

It's something people can get away with base game dungeons, but I will instantly vote kick for a DLC dungeon.

proteinexe

I’m a fake tank I queue as tank as a PvP MagDK with heavy armour. I sit at 23k HP and slot a taunt.

Today was Banished Cells II. I tanked 7 crocodiles fire lizards at the end (the DD’s were both low CP hence why so many flamethrower lizards), I destroyed the healing balls and I kept my dot’s on the boss and did a total of 37% damage.

I’m still a fake tank. I’ve never had a real tank nor will I make one, yet I slot a SnB on all my PvP toons to get undaunted to level 10 because PvP toons usually have over 20k health, decent resistances and modest damage output. I’ve not once had a problem with the base dungeons.

I’m a fake tank and I’m proud.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

renne

If you slot a taunt and do the basics of tanking then sorry, your brag that you're a proud fake tank is incorrect, you're actually a tank.

Crow_IX

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.

Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.

So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.

Here is my pov just to give you some insight. I'm a CP 1100+ PvPer. I have no PvE builds nor do I have any PvE sets. As a matter of fact I actually HATE PvE cause it is so slow and boring and that is actually WHY I will que as a healer or tank in some dungeons. Now let me explain why. Firstly if, and a big IF, I am doing a dungeon it is only ever to help someone get a set or something of a sort, for example I was helping a new player get trollking last week. I'll make it clear that I will only que base game dungeons as a fake roll because they are so brain dead easy most times I can typically solo them and I don't want to be there in the first place, but the more people the better chance of people trading over sets. When I que as a tank or healer as a DPS its because I'm wanting to steamroll the dungeon with 4 dps, which i usually assume the dps will be pretty decent. I'm not trying to immerse myself or take the time to kill small groups at a time. Do I use a taunt? No, because i don't usually have the skillpoints or skilltree for those unlocked actually, but also because I never really needed to. 4 dps in year 1 content usually steamrolls the dungeon as i intend to. and yeah sometimes ill get kicked for killing mobs too fast, or something stupid, which i don't really ever understand cause I'm basically carrying the dungeon for free, but some people just get so upset at the roll that it doesn't even matter. or usually the other players don't know how to self sustain and get upset cause they're the ones dying a lot, which is fine, i get it, sometimes in pve you don't learn or use those skills. But if you're gonna be upset at someone for not queing a roll and rolling through the dungeon, do we have a right to be upset at you guys for not knowing simple mechanics?

Keep in mind i personally will only que into year 1 base content, since most dlc dungeons have tougher mechanics. but i also never struggle with the dungeons i que.

so, before you kick someone for queing as a tank, ask yourself. can we still beat the dungeon? because if you can, there isn't really a problem other than you just simply upset at the rolls. trust me, i don't want to be there more than you don't want me there, and I'm sure the same could be said for a lot of us. but if it is doable, just let us carry you all through it and get it over with.

renne

This entire thread is full of examples of why assuming everyone queuing for a dungeon just wants to blast through it is a bad assumption. Your POV doesn't give any more or brand new insight, it's just the same old response we've seen over and over from people trying to justify why it's okay that THEY fake queue and everyone else who correctly queued should be THANKING them for it!!

Calm_Fury

renne wrote: »

This entire thread is full of examples of why assuming everyone queuing for a dungeon just wants to blast through it is a bad assumption. Your POV doesn't give any more or brand new insight, it's just the same old response we've seen over and over from people trying to justify why it's okay that THEY fake queue and everyone else who correctly queued should be THANKING them for it!!

The common thread in all those confessed fake tanks is that they know it is wrong.

You can see they all try to "justify" their behavior somehow. Most of them try to bring some facts to show that when they do it, it is not as bad. You only do that when you know you are doing something wrong.

But at this point in the game's life, I don't think ZOS cares anymore. This Undaunted event and the increase in transmute crystals only made the problem worse.

JmJ

There is also plenty of fake dd's spamming bow light attack as only skill. I dont think there is much we can do about those either.

idk

AyaDark wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

Tanking in ESO isn't difficult. There are certain requirements for tanks that aren't there for other roles: knowing the map, knowing the boss mechanics, etc. Those requirements might be intimidating, but they don't make tanking difficult. I've been tanking in MMOs since early 2005, and I've been tanking in many different MMOs, and some of those (WoW, etc) at a very high level. While I did enjoy tanking in some of those MMOs, I do not enjoy tanking in ESO, even though I still do it. The reason that I don't enjoy tanking in ESO is that outside of trials and a few veteran DLC dungeons, it's not really required. There are no defensive cooldowns that you have to juggle and the healer isn't running out of resources.

I can build a bruiser (tank/DPS hybrid) and I can tank just as well as if I ran a full tank setup, while dealing a lot more damage (20-30K). One of my most efficient tanks when it comes to clearing dungeons, is my (lightning themed) Altmer Sorcerer with Stormfist/Thunderbug/Overwhelming Surge (5h - 1m - 1l).

[Buffed stats]

- 3722 Spell Damage
- 35% Spell Critical
- 11500 Spell Penetration (major breach)
- 32k Resistances
- 29k Health/ 34k Magicka / 15K Stamina

The only 'tanking' skill that I run on my bar is Pierce Armor, and that's just as much for the penetration as it is for the taunt. I never run out of resources, and thanks to Surge and Dark Conversion, I don't require healing in 95% of the dungeons I do. I can solo almost all non DLC veteran and normal DLC dungeons (the exception are a few bosses with mechancis that require at least one more person). Before I ran this character, I ran a Magicka (frost) warden tank, that had good damage and was able to heal good enough for us not needing a dedicated healer. I ran both Tank/Heal on that warden, and I often ended up doing pledges with 3x DPS.

While both of these characters have a taunt slotted, and were close to resistance capped, they wouldn't be able to tank if ESO ended up implementing some draconic tanking requirements. These tanking requirements aren't needed, and if anything, they would kill build diversity. I don't mind going 'full tank', but for that to happen, the content needs to be difficult enough, which it isn't.

I am fully aware that what I play is considered a 'selfish' tank, and if I had a 'GOOD' group, my group would benefit more from me running buff sets (which I do own), than gearing for DPS. The issue is that it's so rare to get a 'good' group, that it's more efficient to build for DPS than for buffing your team. There is only so much you can improve a base 2-3K DPS.

I have had no complaints when it comes to my tanking, as the dungeons go fast and it's very rare for people to die. On the other side, I've had a lot of compliments and good feedback, as I often pull big groups and people have the chance to drop their ultimates/AoEs and see big numbers.

From what I've seen in this thread, most of the toxicity, finger pointing and narrow mindness comes from one side of the discussion. There will always be bad tanks, and there will always be bad fake tanks, but that doesn't mean that everyone who does a good job should suffer for it.

We do not need draconian tank requirements in ESO.

Selfish tank for selfish groups.

If they want not selfish tank - then HEAL me

Heeeal where is heal ? HPS of 2 heals in some groups is 1 k !!! In trials.

In meta raids 25k hps.

How do they expect tank survive with heal like this ?

Selfish ? It is better than they deserve, they deserve no tank at all !

In a GF pug group, the tank would be wise to gear selfishly.

Calm_Fury

JmJ wrote: »

There is also plenty of fake dd's spamming bow light attack as only skill. I dont think there is much we can do about those either.

As already said about 1 million times before in this thread, bad dps/healers is a completely different matter.

In a Group Finder, it is normal and expected to get bad, newer players.

Those players are still honest and trying to fulfill the role they selected.

Not to be confused with intentionally dishonest players who exploit the system by choosing a role they have no intention on fulfilling just to skip the queue.