Fake Tanking

sionIV

Sarannah wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

You do realize I am posting this as a tank, who gets placed in half-finished runs more often than start a full run. Low DPS is a terribly overused excuse. It takes two-three pulls for players to get used to a real tank having their backs, and then they start DPSing for real! Just like fake tank's excuse saying they do most DPS, its because everyone else is either running for their lives or is dead. As a tank if I let my group die, I can do 100% DPS as well!
You should see how players react to a real tank.

A win-win would be if players would not fake tank. Leaving those who waited out their queue with a real tank. Allowing players to actually learn their roles as well.

PS: I don't really mind being placed into half-finished runs, especially not now with the dremora skull at the end. When I run pledges I simply finish the incomplete run in a few minutes, and re-queue afterwards.

As someone who tanks 3-10 dungeons a day, I almost never end up in a unfinished run. The few rare exceptions are veteran DLC dungeons, and most of the time the team that I join into, are so bad that I understand why the tank left.

It takes two-three pulls for players to get used to a real tank having their backs, and then they start DPSing for real!

Yes, that Bosmer Warden who is light attacking with a bow, will get a massive DPS increase and out of nowhere learn perfect DPS rotations because a 'real' tank has arrived. In case you didn't get the sarcasm in that sentence, the DPS aren't going to magically get 'good' because a 'real' tank has joined the dungeon. If they're in full heavy, light attacking with a bow and using Sword & Shield on the backbar, how exactly are they going to increase their damage because the enemy stands still? I've seen countless DPS who didn't even slot an AoE.

There is no such thing as a 'real' tank, it's your subjective view of what you consider a tank.

oddbasket

It's already 13 pages of ridiculous expectations by DDs and fake healers to enforce some stringent requirements on a barely even existent tank population in the group finder.

None of which will do anything for them in getting their so called 'real' tank that live up to their expectations when most of such tanks don't even queue in the first place. The real solution to get that 'desired' tank in your group is actually to give up your DD/healer and play one to your expectations yourself.

If we look past the fake tank demands, the real issue is the existing group finder design together with the current crop of players that use it. Real tanks don't queue since the group can be a crapshoot, players who can't fake tank convincingly fake heal, DDs haven't been living up to their role.

So as a DD we're waiting 20-40mins and get a fake tank or a vet DD with a taunt, but if queued as a healer maybe 10-20mins, how long would we wait if this group was eliminated completely?

Let's say ZOS relents and gives the role specific group finder stringent tank requirements, and a separate non-role specific queue. All those vet DDs with a taunt that can carry a group through a vet dungeon would just move to the non-role queue, and slotting a taunt becomes less obligated for them, players will adapt and have to learn to handle themselves.

Let's be honest, will majority of DDs and Healers stay in the role specific queue or move on? My personal opinion is they will move to the new queue as it will be the only queue that will be popping frequently, except they now have no cause to complain about fake healers and tanks. The other queue will just be an abandoned queue.

Bottom line is if you're using the queue finder, be prepared to shift some of your expectations on others that will form your group to yourself. Be prepared and adapt your build, especially DDs who are starting out since many DD guides will set you up to optimise damage with little self support and pass that on to the support class.

Zodiarkslayer

On another point: That whole "Fake tanking" or "Fake Role" problem has this overlay of peoples freedom to play how they like.

AND: The consideration should be that the Group Finder is a help tool for people to find a group on a push of a button, instead of having to chat for a while and/or maintaining a friend base for that purpose.

Similarily the set of roles is not set in stone. It is again a tool to help people, to find a group dynamic and to better their "division of labor". And thus play better. If you have that on your own or you have a smooth and unproblematic run either way, then there is no use to stick to the fixed set of roles. That "stick to the rules" type of thinking might even be a hinderance at that point. A serious detriment even.

AyaDark

oddbasket wrote: »

It's already 13 pages of ridiculous expectations by DDs and fake healers to enforce some stringent requirements on a barely even existent tank population in the group finder.

None of which will do anything for them in getting their so called 'real' tank that live up to their expectations when most of such tanks don't even queue in the first place. The real solution to get that 'desired' tank in your group is actually to give up your DD/healer and play one to your expectations yourself.

If we look past the fake tank demands, the real issue is the existing group finder design together with the current crop of players that use it. Real tanks don't queue since the group can be a crapshoot, players who can't fake tank convincingly fake heal, DDs haven't been living up to their role.

So as a DD we're waiting 20-40mins and get a fake tank or a vet DD with a taunt, but if queued as a healer maybe 10-20mins, how long would we wait if this group was eliminated completely?

Let's say ZOS relents and gives the role specific group finder stringent tank requirements, and a separate non-role specific queue. All those vet DDs with a taunt that can carry a group through a vet dungeon would just move to the non-role queue, and slotting a taunt becomes less obligated for them, players will adapt and have to learn to handle themselves.

Let's be honest, will majority of DDs and Healers stay in the role specific queue or move on? My personal opinion is they will move to the new queue as it will be the only queue that will be popping frequently, except they now have no cause to complain about fake healers and tanks. The other queue will just be an abandoned queue.

Bottom line is if you're using the queue finder, be prepared to shift some of your expectations on others that will form your group to yourself. Be prepared and adapt your build, especially DDs who are starting out since many DD guides will set you up to optimise damage with little self support and pass that on to the support class.

They just do not want to learn to play.

They want perfect tank - but they are not perfect DD.

- Why do not tank agro ?
- Why not you DD it before it run to you ?

It really is bad tanks that even do not taunt boss - we just kick them and go without them.

But a lot of dd can not do any dps, run before tank, stand in all aoes.

It is not target dummy - to dps dummy is not a play of DD. You need to survive yourself, damage yourself - nothing to hard to be self important if you play DD - in all games DD is:
1) People who do not want take any responciability.
2) If tanks die - all die. If healer die - tanks mistake. If DD dies - who cares, just played bad.
In teso DD is like gods - no nothing special in you. Bot can dps dummy. It is not what DD must be proud for.

Calm_Fury

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@Calm_Fury While I understand where your propositions come from, I fear they will be legally impossible to enforce.
The thing is by buying a product from you, you, the seller, are in responsibility to ensure the customer can use the product. The only exception is serious misuse or abusive use. In North America that is enforced pretty loosely. But in Europe it is very different.

A hypothetical case: If I were Fake tanking and be banned based on your report, I would have legal cause to sue ZOS in any state of the EU.
That is not a joke. Customer rights are pretty tight over here. Moreover I could sue ZOS to release the clear name of the person who reported me and sue that person for serious slander. And that person would have to recompense me for the damage in reputation I suffered and the inability to use a product I legally had to be able to use.

Just so that you know: I studied economics and legal was a BIG part of it. I know it to be true.

This is absolutely not the case. ZOS sets the rules.

They ban people that exploit XP. They ban people that exploit AP. Even if they do it by using systems already in the game. We've seen this before many, many times.

It is merely on ZOS' hands to decide that queuing as fake tank to get faster queues is exploiting Group Finder and that is it.

There is absolutely nothing illegal or suable about that. Any lawyer would laugh people out of their offices if they came in bring a case on those basis.

You studied Economics, I used to be a Lawyer. If what you were saying had any legal base, anyone that has even been banned would be suing game companies. There is a reason we don't see that.

Once ZOS explicitly decides this is against the rules and TOS, and, therefore, subject to penalties, that is it.

Calm_Fury

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

I've said multiple times in this thread that I main tanks. I have 3 that I PUG regularly.

Fake tanking is even a problem whem I'm tanking because I frequently get put on half-finished runs for pledges because people had to kick a fake tank to finish the dungeon. I still help them but end up having to run all over again if I missed a boss.

And even though I have 3 tanks, sometimes I want to DPS. I want to heal. When I chose those roles, I don't want to end up tanking anyway against my will because some selfish, inconsiderate person decided it is ok to fake tank the vet pledges.

Jeremy

Kurat wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Below is a possible solution for this I've been suggesting for a while now.

First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:

1. ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
2. ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
3. ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
4. ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.

So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:

Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.

If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.

Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.

Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.

This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.

EDIT: And btw, fake tanking doesn't just affect healers and DPS trying to queue. Just yesterday I was trying to do a pledge with my tank and got put in a half-finished run. The group had a fake tank and kicked them because they couldn't pass a boss. Since I think people should always kick fake tanks, I helped them finish even though it wouldn't complete my pledge since they had already killed one of the bosses. So, the fake tank wasted their time and my time. But it goes to show that fake tanking affects everyone, even proper tanks (this happens about once a week for me when I'm regularly tanking pledges)

Lmao. And what stops people from abusing the reporting system? When I'm the tank and make remark about someone's 11k hp or try to tell them mechanics or complain about low dps etc then some of the snowflakes may report me as payback. Or they may report me simply because they dont understand the game or mechs. You have no idea how noob some pugs can be. If there was some fake role reporting system currently, then I would probably be banned by now lol. Few examples: I recently tanked vMHK, first boss pinned me as per mech, no one interrupted so I got 1 shot. Immediately I got laughed at by some cp600ish dps. We wiped. 2nd try same thing, I told them what to do but they ignored and I got some serious hate after another wipe. Same thing happened in vFV first boss. Also some 10k dps wanted to kick me from vBRF before last boss. There are 3 adds before the boss comes, 1 minotaur pins 2 ppl and others have to interrupt. I was the one pinned every time and others didn't interrupt, the dps who died because of that blamed me for being a bad tank and said they need new one if they wanna clear it lol. All of in these examples would have reported me. I have trifecta achievements for almost all vet dlcs. I also change gear and skills sometimes in dungeon as needed to better support group at specific fights. If this was made impossible and some inexperienced toxic noobs were able to report me every time they didn't like something then I would stop using gf and I'm sure many other real tanks aswell.
I only fake tank normals and non dlc vets, I would never take fake to vet dlc.
People who point fingers should look in the mirror.
Implementing any sort of gear/skill check, restricting gear swaps, reporting and banning would have the opposite effect. Many fake tanks would stop indeed but also alot of real ones and the result would be double or tripled queue times.

The added report function for people who fake their roles would just serve as a indicator for ZoS to investigate. In other words: if a certain player got a lot of those specific reports it would trigger an investigation so ZoS employees could look into the matter and see if the player is abusing the system or not. If so - they would get a temporary suspension from using the activity finder. If not - and they were indeed being trolled - then nothing would happen to them.

Honestly, just the presence of that specific kind of kick/report for people who fake roles would likely go a long way to curbing the abuse. Players who frequently do it might think twice knowing it could earn them a suspension from using the queue system. So I don't think it would even need to be used very often to have a significant effect. Just its implementation and mere presence would likely cut down on the practice.

KaGaOri

sionIV wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

Why don't people fake tanking roll actual tanks themselves? Then we wouldn't see fake tanks either. And perhaps then half of dungeon runs wouldn't be wasted because a) "tank" can't hold agro causing wipe after wipe / forcing someone else to face-tank, or b) "tank" more or less soloes the dungeon, preferably by skipping parts of it, making learning mechanics / quest completion impossible.

Btw: in my experience bad dps is usually result of no one tanking / healing, since dds spent most of the time dead, resing someone, casting self heals and shields and running from enemies, instead of damage dealing.

Minus being dead, you can do most of these things while light attacking. A bad tank can result in a DPS loss for team members, but it's the ones with good DPS and rotation that suffer the most. The Bosmer Warden who light attacks with a bow won't see a shift in her DPS if there is chaos or not.

You're doing bad DPS because you don't know your rotations, and that has everything to do with you, and rarely anything to do with the tank.

Don't believe light attacking can make up for rotation degraded to shields, self heals and dodge rolls. Dps won't be zero, but it will be still much worse than with no boss in my face and proper rotation.

Filthy casuall player / gaming beginner (eso is my first mmo) here, got only one toon so far (magsorc dd), mostly playing solo overland. Wanted to try out dungeons lately and upped my game to make sure i'm pulling my own weight -> got monster set, reworked whole build, got better at rotation ... only to get punished by having to face-tank every time someone is too important to wait in line with rest of us / bother to do bare minimum of what he's signed up for.

Getting envious of the guy spaming light attacks with a bow right about now.

josiahva

Sarannah wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

I don't get why theres so many salty comments here while in dungeons no one says anything. In fact it's the opposite, peeps seem happy that they got quick run and free carry. I've never been kicked for fake tanking.
When I level new toons and do randoms, I'm always happy to get higher cp fake tank in group instead of all lvl 20s. Base game dungeons get done in 5-10min vs 30-45 with low levels and REAL roles.

This is because they are being held hostage. They have a choice: risk it with the fake tank after spending almost an hour in queue, or kick the fake tank and queue again for almost an hour with a high chance of another fake tank. Meaning they would get one dungeon done in TWO hours, assuming the new tank isn't fake and the run goes smooth. But the chance is really high they get another fake tank, so it is not worth it to kick and requeue.

You are free to hold your opinion, however contentious it may be, just as I and others are free to disagree with you and continue to do whatever we want to, within the bounds of what is permitted by the environment.

But it is NOT permitted by the environment, this is why the role is called TANK and why one has to specifically queue for it. And queueing as a fake role is abusive on your fellow players.
Just because the bankdoors and vault are open, does not mean you just walk in and take all the money.

Basically it comes down to: Fake tanks are selfish a-'s.
And they are sooo incredibly toxic to the entire game in so many ways. This is exactly why ZOS should ASAP implement high tank role requirements and no gear swapping in dungeons. Preferably in tomorrow's update. Fake tanking is probably losing them alot of players, especially on the long term and new players(victims).

Humanity would be in a much better spot if people weren't like.... this.

NO NO NO, I swap gear as a tank MULTIPLE times per dungeon. Here is an example...when pugging vet frostvault, as a tank, one of my alternate gear sets is Kagrenacs Hope...I use this set SPECIFICALLY for the Vault Protector fight because I can rez teamates DURING the laser phase. At the same time, for basic mobs in the same dungeon I will often run something that allows more AOE damage(just for trash mobs), but then I get to the Stonekeeper, and since he puts out so much damage I go full mitigation. It is ESSENTIAL for a GOOD tank to be able to swap his/her entire gear set and skill setup mid dungeon if they feel it will help the group. Banning that is the WORST idea you could possibly put forward...all in some misguided attempt to force others to tank the way you think they should.

The fact of the matter is that there are different ways to tank. Some people swap gear all the time, some people wear the same sets all the time. Some tanks heal while tanking, some tanks do damage while tanking, some tanks focus on group buffs, some on enemy debuffs, some tanks mix and match any of the above. Some tanks wear fortified brass in light armor, some tanks wear battalion defender, but ALL tanks need the option of versatility. Who really cares HOW someone tanks as long as they are ACTUALLY tanking. ZOS defines the role as absorbing damage and keeping attention off of teamates...so long as they do that...they are fulfilling the role as ZOS defines it. If they aren't doing that, then kick them from the group. If you are truly worried about fake tanking, you WILL vote to kick, regardless of how long you have to wait for a replacement, doing anything else enables fake tanks.

Mythreindeer

Abuse of a reporting system is much worse than abuse of the queuing system

oddbasket

Punishing others using the group finder is so stupid. Like I've said the real issue isn't even fake tanks. This will just be DDs and healers forcing a very small number of tank players who still queue to play a certain way that they dictate, likely forcing even more tanks away from the queue finder because we've now given power to a very toxic DD and healer player base majority to dictate how a minority plays and take action against other players.

So are we implementing this weapon.. I mean system just for targeting tanks, or are you suddenly going to be impartial and say it will be a general system where we can report all players, DD and healers as well for their roles? Next thing you know, the healer who lets a disgruntled DD die gets reported, the DD doing 60% of group DPS reports the other DD for not doing damage as a DD because he feels like he's doing too much work. This is a toxic system that caters to only toxic players, which I can assure you most of the reasons reported are going to be inane and wasting ZOS resources to have a GM or support to deal with.

However, it still won't magically make more so called 'real' tanks appear when they don't even queue or unwilling to put their tanks through the group finder. Ultimately, it just punishes the DD and healer base themselves with even longer wait times.

oddbasket

Issue: Not enough tanks willing to use the queue finder

Side effect: Fake tanks and vet DDs with a taunt fills the void

Solutions in this thread: Obsessively targets side effect

Qn: How does telling the tank community you need to play your tank the way I tell you now, or I will report and ban you from the queue finder encourage these tanks to return to the queue finder?

Ans: It doesn't. Only when rewards outweigh the effort to go through the queue finder will make tanks return. Take a look at the undaunted enclaves today, it's filled with guys with shields and red orbs circling them collecting transmute crystals and doing sticker book. Think of more solutions along the lines of rewarding gameplay instead of punishing gameplay.

Calm_Fury

oddbasket wrote: »

Issue: Not enough tanks willing to use the queue finder

Side effect: Fake tanks and vet DDs with a taunt fills the void

Solutions in this thread: Obsessively targets side effect

Qn: How does telling the tank community you need to play your tank the way I tell you now, or I will report and ban you from the queue finder encourage these tanks to return to the queue finder?

Ans: It doesn't. Only when rewards outweigh the effort to go through the queue finder will make tanks return. Take a look at the undaunted enclaves today, it's filled with guys with shields and red orbs circling them collecting transmute crystals and doing sticker book. Think of more solutions along the lines of rewarding gameplay instead of punishing gameplay.

Stop mixing things up.

A DD with a taunt that taunts is a tank (thought it might be a bad one), not a fake tank, thus not part of this problem.

As we said literally dozens of times in this thread already, if you taunt and hold aggro on bosses and dangerous mobs, you are not a fake tank. This here we are discussing does not apply to you.

oddbasket

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Stop mixing things up.

A DD with a taunt that taunts is a tank (thought it might be a bad one), not a fake tank, thus not part of this problem.

As we said literally dozens of times in this thread already, if you taunt and hold aggro on bosses and dangerous mobs, you are not a fake tank. This here we are discussing does not apply to you.

How am I mixing them up when I've addressed them separately? Like I've said, they both exist as a side effect of a real issue. That none of setting hard requirements for the TANK role, and implementing a reporting system solves.

Calm_Fury

oddbasket wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Stop mixing things up.

A DD with a taunt that taunts is a tank (thought it might be a bad one), not a fake tank, thus not part of this problem.

As we said literally dozens of times in this thread already, if you taunt and hold aggro on bosses and dangerous mobs, you are not a fake tank. This here we are discussing does not apply to you.

How am I mixing them up when I've addressed them separately? Like I've said, they both exist as a side effect of a real issue. That none of setting hard requirements for the TANK role, and implementing a reporting system solves.

A hard requirement for tank won't work here. I agree with that and said so multiple times.

A reporting system based on analysis of taunt will work. It is very easy to see when a player that queued as a tank had a taunt slotted and used it during a run. That is why, since the beginning, I'm making it clear that fake tank is a different thing than an optimal tank.

That is the only thing most of us here is asking: if you queue as tank, have a taunt slotted and use it.

Hard requirements have been suggested, but most people like me who have been against fake tanks have already recognized that this is not a viable solution for ESO.

oddbasket

Calm_Fury wrote: »

A hard requirement for tank won't work here. I agree with that and said so multiple times.

A reporting system based on analysis of taunt will work. It is very easy to see when a player that queued as a tank had a taunt slotted and used it during a run. That is why, since the beginning, I'm making it clear that fake tank is a different thing than an optimal tank.

That is the only thing most of us here is asking: if you queue as tank, have a taunt slotted and use it.

Hard requirements have been suggested, but most people like me who have been against fake tanks have already recognized that this is not a viable solution for ESO.

By what you're saying here, what you guys want is simply someone with a taunt? And the onus is on the player who queued as a tank, but he may not need to be a dedicated tank even? Then you don't need a reporting system.

The solution is rather simple, have ZOS do away with the role specific queue or better yet add a roleless queue alongside, invest 1 skill point in a taunt and be prepared to step up with it. Same goes for self healing. Anything else that requires a specific group, just form your own groups.

A few posts earlier, I've mentioned the feasibility of a roleless queue alongside the role specific queue. Let the players sort themselves out. Players will adapt and step up ie. learn to deal with mechanics and manage their own survivability and dps when they have a need to, especially if it bars their game progression or if there's no one with a title to blame, eg. tank/healer/DD. Players can also stay with the role specific queue if that's their flavor, knowing the ones who fast queue as fake roles will no longer be there. Chances are players who fake role will find themselves grouped up, and players who prefer a trinity group get their way.

The divide now then becomes a clear case of players who've adapted to the state of the game, and players who favor the trinity roles in mmos. The solution should cater to the demograph of players using the finder instead of forcibly changing it, since this demograph is created by the status of the game, proportion of player roles, player's power vs game difficulty.

CrashTest

This problem seemed to be worse today. I'm guessing it's bc players are collecting sets and transmute stones.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

That is the only thing most of us here is asking: if you queue as tank, have a taunt slotted and use it.

This.

I don't care if you're a DPS queued as tank IF you're taunting, controlling mobs, controlling the flow of the fight, and can stay alive i.e. doing what a tank does.

Unfortunately, the majority of fake tanks (DPS with no taunt, CC, or ability to control fights) can't do that so the mobs run around smacking everyone, which usually results in at least 2 players kiting whatever is hitting them all over the room, which makes the run longer than it would've taken if there was an actual tank.

And to make it even worse, the fake tank's DPS is usually utter garbage.

Jeremy

CrashTest wrote: »

This problem seemed to be worse today. I'm guessing it's bc players are collecting sets and transmute stones.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

That is the only thing most of us here is asking: if you queue as tank, have a taunt slotted and use it.

This.

I don't care if you're a DPS queued as tank IF you're taunting, controlling mobs, controlling the flow of the fight, and can stay alive i.e. doing what a tank does.

Unfortunately, the majority of fake tanks (DPS with no taunt, CC, or ability to control fights) can't do that so the mobs run around smacking everyone, which usually results in at least 2 players kiting whatever is hitting them all over the room, which makes the run longer than it would've taken if there was an actual tank.

And to make it even worse, the fake tank's DPS is usually utter garbage.

Yeah I hear that argument a lot that fake tanks supposedly make runs go smoother and faster.

In my experience: nothing could be further from the truth. haha

Calm_Fury

oddbasket wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

A hard requirement for tank won't work here. I agree with that and said so multiple times.

A reporting system based on analysis of taunt will work. It is very easy to see when a player that queued as a tank had a taunt slotted and used it during a run. That is why, since the beginning, I'm making it clear that fake tank is a different thing than an optimal tank.

That is the only thing most of us here is asking: if you queue as tank, have a taunt slotted and use it.

Hard requirements have been suggested, but most people like me who have been against fake tanks have already recognized that this is not a viable solution for ESO.

By what you're saying here, what you guys want is simply someone with a taunt? And the onus is on the player who queued as a tank, but he may not need to be a dedicated tank even? Then you don't need a reporting system.

The solution is rather simple, have ZOS do away with the role specific queue or better yet add a roleless queue alongside, invest 1 skill point in a taunt and be prepared to step up with it. Same goes for self healing. Anything else that requires a specific group, just form your own groups.

A few posts earlier, I've mentioned the feasibility of a roleless queue alongside the role specific queue. Let the players sort themselves out. Players will adapt and step up ie. learn to deal with mechanics and manage their own survivability and dps when they have a need to, especially if it bars their game progression or if there's no one with a title to blame, eg. tank/healer/DD. Players can also stay with the role specific queue if that's their flavor, knowing the ones who fast queue as fake roles will no longer be there. Chances are players who fake role will find themselves grouped up, and players who prefer a trinity group get their way.

The divide now then becomes a clear case of players who've adapted to the state of the game, and players who favor the trinity roles in mmos. The solution should cater to the demograph of players using the finder instead of forcibly changing it, since this demograph is created by the status of the game, proportion of player roles, player's power vs game difficulty.

Yes. The only thing we want if the person who queue as a tank to keep aggro on the bosses and other dangerous mobs.

As I said, I am a tank, but when I queue as DPS I wanna DPS and not off-tank.

ZOS can create the roleless queue, but people will still queue as fake tanks.

Today the issue was already 10x worse than before.

PTTE

sionIV wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

You do realize I am posting this as a tank, who gets placed in half-finished runs more often than start a full run. Low DPS is a terribly overused excuse. It takes two-three pulls for players to get used to a real tank having their backs, and then they start DPSing for real! Just like fake tank's excuse saying they do most DPS, its because everyone else is either running for their lives or is dead. As a tank if I let my group die, I can do 100% DPS as well!
You should see how players react to a real tank.

A win-win would be if players would not fake tank. Leaving those who waited out their queue with a real tank. Allowing players to actually learn their roles as well.

PS: I don't really mind being placed into half-finished runs, especially not now with the dremora skull at the end. When I run pledges I simply finish the incomplete run in a few minutes, and re-queue afterwards.

As someone who tanks 3-10 dungeons a day, I almost never end up in a unfinished run. The few rare exceptions are veteran DLC dungeons, and most of the time the team that I join into, are so bad that I understand why the tank left.

It takes two-three pulls for players to get used to a real tank having their backs, and then they start DPSing for real!

Yes, that Bosmer Warden who is light attacking with a bow, will get a massive DPS increase and out of nowhere learn perfect DPS rotations because a 'real' tank has arrived. In case you didn't get the sarcasm in that sentence, the DPS aren't going to magically get 'good' because a 'real' tank has joined the dungeon. If they're in full heavy, light attacking with a bow and using Sword & Shield on the backbar, how exactly are they going to increase their damage because the enemy stands still? I've seen countless DPS who didn't even slot an AoE.

There is no such thing as a 'real' tank, it's your subjective view of what you consider a tank.

Sure there's such a thing as a real tank, it's a tank that knows mechs, knows how to pull, buffs and debuffs, heals and puts on shields. If you're not doing one of those you're a bad tank and if you're not taunting you're obviously a fake tank. And this is not a subjective view at all, it's literally how every end game tank plays the game.

Zodiarkslayer

Jeremy wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This problem seemed to be worse today. I'm guessing it's bc players are collecting sets and transmute stones.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

That is the only thing most of us here is asking: if you queue as tank, have a taunt slotted and use it.

This.

I don't care if you're a DPS queued as tank IF you're taunting, controlling mobs, controlling the flow of the fight, and can stay alive i.e. doing what a tank does.

Unfortunately, the majority of fake tanks (DPS with no taunt, CC, or ability to control fights) can't do that so the mobs run around smacking everyone, which usually results in at least 2 players kiting whatever is hitting them all over the room, which makes the run longer than it would've taken if there was an actual tank.

And to make it even worse, the fake tank's DPS is usually utter garbage.

Yeah I hear that argument a lot that fake tanks supposedly make runs go smoother and faster.

In my experience: nothing could be further from the truth. haha

To be honest, that is partially true. Even a good tank will drop group DPS, compared to a good DD. And it is kind of sad. But the reasons for bad runs are usually spread across all group members. And the reason is player skill. Not player role.

An anecdote: Last night, on launch day, I ran seven dungeons. I had a perfect vet run (AllInOne achievement) for Selene's Web and an abysmal run for Vet Blessed Crucible, because the 200CP DD's DID NOT BOTHER to damage those Fire Atrros and one of them even was the infamously legendary bosmer warden bow light attack build. I, as a tank did 35% of group damage (10K dps) on the lava queen fight. That is such a spread in player quality, or skill if you like.

Now, imagine being a good endgame tank: Would you do that to yourself?

oddbasket wrote: »

Issue: Not enough tanks willing to use the queue finder

Side effect: Fake tanks and vet DDs with a taunt fills the void

Solutions in this thread: Obsessively targets side effect

Qn: How does telling the tank community you need to play your tank the way I tell you now, or I will report and ban you from the queue finder encourage these tanks to return to the queue finder?

Ans: It doesn't. Only when rewards outweigh the effort to go through the queue finder will make tanks return. Take a look at the undaunted enclaves today, it's filled with guys with shields and red orbs circling them collecting transmute crystals and doing sticker book. Think of more solutions along the lines of rewarding gameplay instead of punishing gameplay.

And finally someone sees the cause and effect. I would only add, that it is really good tanks. In a guild, tanks are in high regard and if they ask: "who wants to do a Vet HM pledge?", literally all the online guildies jump and say: me! It is like back in school when the popular kid gets to select his football team.

And I totally agree on the Q&A. Good tanks have had very little incentive to use GF in the past.

AyaDark

It is impossible to do anything with it. Even with 100%check and all full coded gear - i can just make a tank like this port in and light attack.

Just from as example revenge to fake dds who do not let me play tank as i want - what changes ? How do you report it? If it is 100% mach the not fake tank test?

Or may be i am best of the best tank, but i get drunk and can not agr target - just miss

You always get what you deserve.

The problem with tanks was bad attitude to them, not letting tanks play like they want and do there job.

How can some DD say how Tank must play ? He can not !

Do not like something - go tank yourself !

And i really do not want go tank.

I go 2 hours on it for content i can solo < 1 hour because of groups like ... this.

And players like this will learn me how to play tank ? No thank you i get enough of this 1 year ago.

"What the perfect tank will do, will wear ?"
- He go away and newer play with people with such attitude. This is true answer and i know it now.

And nothing will change before people understand it.
Tank know best what and where he must put on and use. When he can put support sets on or put all gear for self protect. It is his role and it is his work. Tank need not advices in it. Need support, ebon ? Put 1 k stats more in HP =0,5% damage lose is not a problem, do not you think ?
Want more damage - support each other with support sets. It is DDs sets, put it on by yourself. Tank must not wear it.

If party have Zero damage +5% to zero is zero. If each DD has 80 k dps tank see it and if he fill like it is right situation put support sets on.

Not because you want it !

Because it is situation where he can use it !

When you say what tank need to do, tanks will say you where to go, and may be tank there, just a little.

josiahva

AyaDark wrote: »

Do not like something - go tank yourself !

^^This. The thing is DPS and healers can sit around complaining about fake tanks, and tanks can sit around complaining about fake DPS and healers, but in the end you can only fill one role. If you think tanking is the issue...build a tank and show everyone how its done. You can fill every single one of your tanking expectations that way and you will never again have to worry about "fake" tanking.

If on the other hand you think fake DPS or fake healing is the issue, you can just build one of those roles instead and never have to worry about it again.

.....or you can just queue up with random people in group finder and get random results, maybe accept that not every group that you find yourself in is going to be optimal? Maybe make your own group and invite friends and guildees that will cater to your expectations?

Jeremy

josiahva wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Do not like something - go tank yourself !

^^This. The thing is DPS and healers can sit around complaining about fake tanks, and tanks can sit around complaining about fake DPS and healers, but in the end you can only fill one role. If you think tanking is the issue...build a tank and show everyone how its done. You can fill every single one of your tanking expectations that way and you will never again have to worry about "fake" tanking.

If on the other hand you think fake DPS or fake healing is the issue, you can just build one of those roles instead and never have to worry about it again.

.....or you can just queue up with random people in group finder and get random results, maybe accept that not every group that you find yourself in is going to be optimal? Maybe make your own group and invite friends and guildees that will cater to your expectations?

Reading this thread I don't think expectations are that high. All I see most people asking for from their tank is a taunt.

And I don't think people should have to form their own groups before expecting tanks to "cater" to their expectation of having a taunt and acting like an actual tank (the role they signed up for).

I think your argument is best applied to fake tanks and those who want play as roles other than the one they signed up as. Those are the people I think should form their own groups. Because the expectation that a person actually intends to play as the role they signed up for when using the Activity Finder is a reasonable one. It's also just not right for someone to cut in front of others in the queue line by pretending to be something they're not. Wouldn't you agree?

Alchemical

It's been such a problem for so long I've lost all my anger over it. If they are a good enough DPS to solo speedrun the whole dungeon I just (mentally) thank them for the carry I didn't ask for and move on. For the vast majority of dungeons, there is not a hard mechanical punishment for a group without a tank, and so it'll be permitted. Unless you go back and change all the dungeons to make them require taunts or the boss insta wipes the whole party, it'll never stop those sorts.

The real problem is people who THINK they are that kind of cool 100k DPS faketank and are doing less DPS than an AFK healer. I had one earlier today that just kept pulling and pulling larger and larger packs of mobs and was actively SLOWING US DOWN because we couldn't effectively group them up to cleave them down as they ran all over the place.

I decided to just stop healing him and that solved the problem. Passive aggression wins again.

josiahva

Jeremy wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Do not like something - go tank yourself !

^^This. The thing is DPS and healers can sit around complaining about fake tanks, and tanks can sit around complaining about fake DPS and healers, but in the end you can only fill one role. If you think tanking is the issue...build a tank and show everyone how its done. You can fill every single one of your tanking expectations that way and you will never again have to worry about "fake" tanking.

If on the other hand you think fake DPS or fake healing is the issue, you can just build one of those roles instead and never have to worry about it again.

.....or you can just queue up with random people in group finder and get random results, maybe accept that not every group that you find yourself in is going to be optimal? Maybe make your own group and invite friends and guildees that will cater to your expectations?

Reading this thread I don't think expectations are that high. All I see most people asking for from their tank is a taunt.

And I don't think people should have to form their own groups before expecting tanks to "cater" to their expectation of having a taunt and acting like an actual tank (the role they signed up for).

I think your argument is best applied to fake tanks and those who want play as roles other than the one they signed up as. Those are the people I think should form their own groups. Because the expectation that a person actually intends to play as the role they signed up for when using the Activity Finder is a reasonable one. It's also just not right for someone to cut in front of others in the queue line by pretending to be something they're not. Wouldn't you agree?

I ABSOLUTELY think people should try to fill the roles they signed up for. If I feel for whatever someone is not actually TRYING to fill the minimum requirements of their role(regardless of how bad they are at it) I use the vote-to-kick option...its right there...its the solution to ALL fake roles. If you tolerate fake roles of whatever type then you are just enabling those who abuse the system. Of course I don't vote to kick a DPS who is doing bad DPS, but I WILL vote to kick a DPS who is just standing around not even trying.

Put another way....at some point someone becomes a liability to the group...it doesn't even matter WHY they are a liability. At that point, that person should be kicked by the others because it interferes with their chances of successful completion. Its not the responsibility of ZOS to determine if someone is a liability because they are fake tanking, or AFKing, or dying to a boss continually, its up to the GROUP to kick an underperforming member. Lets be clear...I do not fake tank...regardless of which sets and skills I am currently running, I taunt things, control mobs, and debuff enemies at the very least. I may also heal or add DPS or buff or rez or whatever else depending on the fight and what I am wearing. If I am DPSing, and a fake tank shows up, I will vote to kick him/her if they are a liability to the group....but if they can manage to control the battlefield...I honestly don't even care if they taunt...all I care about is that they manage to aggro the mobs somehow and keep things relatively still...aside from that...they can play however they want, however if they are unable to control the mobs, and they kite the boss all around and generally fail at tanking...they are a liability and it is my responsibility to kick that person...just like it would be if there was a healer who wasnt healing when it was needed, or a DPS who spends the entire dungeon looking for chests while the rest of the group fights(looking for chests is fine, just not leaving the rest of the group to do the entire dungeon while you do so).

The point being that just because someone is a "fake" tank, or "fake" healer, or "fake" DPS does not mean they are a group liability...sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't....when they are a liability I vote to kick them, but that may or may not have anything to do with their selected role, it is solely a case-by-case basis...as it should be.

Jeremy

josiahva wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Do not like something - go tank yourself !

^^This. The thing is DPS and healers can sit around complaining about fake tanks, and tanks can sit around complaining about fake DPS and healers, but in the end you can only fill one role. If you think tanking is the issue...build a tank and show everyone how its done. You can fill every single one of your tanking expectations that way and you will never again have to worry about "fake" tanking.

If on the other hand you think fake DPS or fake healing is the issue, you can just build one of those roles instead and never have to worry about it again.

.....or you can just queue up with random people in group finder and get random results, maybe accept that not every group that you find yourself in is going to be optimal? Maybe make your own group and invite friends and guildees that will cater to your expectations?

Reading this thread I don't think expectations are that high. All I see most people asking for from their tank is a taunt.

And I don't think people should have to form their own groups before expecting tanks to "cater" to their expectation of having a taunt and acting like an actual tank (the role they signed up for).

I think your argument is best applied to fake tanks and those who want play as roles other than the one they signed up as. Those are the people I think should form their own groups. Because the expectation that a person actually intends to play as the role they signed up for when using the Activity Finder is a reasonable one. It's also just not right for someone to cut in front of others in the queue line by pretending to be something they're not. Wouldn't you agree?

I ABSOLUTELY think people should try to fill the roles they signed up for. If I feel for whatever someone is not actually TRYING to fill the minimum requirements of their role(regardless of how bad they are at it) I use the vote-to-kick option...its right there...its the solution to ALL fake roles. If you tolerate fake roles of whatever type then you are just enabling those who abuse the system. Of course I don't vote to kick a DPS who is doing bad DPS, but I WILL vote to kick a DPS who is just standing around not even trying.

Put another way....at some point someone becomes a liability to the group...it doesn't even matter WHY they are a liability. At that point, that person should be kicked by the others because it interferes with their chances of successful completion. Its not the responsibility of ZOS to determine if someone is a liability because they are fake tanking, or AFKing, or dying to a boss continually, its up to the GROUP to kick an underperforming member. Lets be clear...I do not fake tank...regardless of which sets and skills I am currently running, I taunt things, control mobs, and debuff enemies at the very least. I may also heal or add DPS or buff or rez or whatever else depending on the fight and what I am wearing. If I am DPSing, and a fake tank shows up, I will vote to kick him/her if they are a liability to the group....but if they can manage to control the battlefield...I honestly don't even care if they taunt...all I care about is that they manage to aggro the mobs somehow and keep things relatively still...aside from that...they can play however they want, however if they are unable to control the mobs, and they kite the boss all around and generally fail at tanking...they are a liability and it is my responsibility to kick that person...just like it would be if there was a healer who wasnt healing when it was needed, or a DPS who spends the entire dungeon looking for chests while the rest of the group fights(looking for chests is fine, just not leaving the rest of the group to do the entire dungeon while you do so).

The point being that just because someone is a "fake" tank, or "fake" healer, or "fake" DPS does not mean they are a group liability...sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't....when they are a liability I vote to kick them, but that may or may not have anything to do with their selected role, it is solely a case-by-case basis...as it should be.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. So instead of risk mischaracterizing you (I know how annoying that can be) I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions to clarify.

In your initial argument you say:

If you tolerate fake roles of whatever type then you are just enabling those who abuse the system

But then you go on to say this:

The point being that just because someone is a "fake" tank, or "fake" healer, or "fake" DPS does not mean they are a group liability...sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't....when they are a liability I vote to kick them, but that may or may not have anything to do with their selected role, it is solely a case-by-case basis...as it should be

So if a fake tank joins a group that does not need a real tank to complete the dungeon and performs well as a DPS would you kick them?

Pixative

There's very heavy pressure on solo players to "fake tank" or "fake heal" and that's not the player's fault, that's game design punishing them for going with a setup that's suited to the main content of the game with instead of a specialty setup that only works in a group, or being too new to have multiple decked-out characters and learned playstyles.

I've never "fake tanked" with strangers or a random queue, but during Undaunted next month, when there's high value rewards on the line and the couple of friends I have aren't on all day, I can't say I'm not going to try it. If you want to fix it, stop punishing people so severely for being honest.

All of this discussion is salty players targeting other players with projection and abuse when the problem is game design, the patterns of behavior you're seeing are created by patterns in the game, they are predictable outcomes. If you punish honesty people will learn to lie.

garenthalb16_ESO

To be fair, it's a consequence of the system being very flawed.

The DPS role is always the most popular role. This is true across pretty much every single MMO with a tank/healer/DPS system in place.

I don't agree with the practice of people queuing up as a role they aren't built for but at the same time it isn't acceptable for DPS players to be sitting around for hours in a queue with only a minute to accept when it finally does pop.

Perhaps more incentives should be implemented to ensure that more tanks and healers are queuing up with random players.

Grandchamp1989

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.