Fake Tanking

Liukke

I've tried to raise a post about this issue:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/553700/3dd-or-4dd-option-for-group-finder

My idea is to create an OPTION in the finder for no class restriction.

This way whoever is experienced and can facetank can just use it and find a party with 3-4DD (just by simple probability) and who wants to keep a more stable party configuration can not use that option and find a balanced one.
Of course, if you spot fake people in the party the #1 rule is always to kick them or even try reporting (just to add some spice).

But as I said in that post I think a no class option in the finder would "purge" many DDs from the main queue, especially those who just want a quick and dirty run (I personally can solo those dungeons so I seriously just need some "dummies" that take hits while I go).

It's not a finder's problem, there's just so many DDs that it cannot work properly if it needs to find 3 classes every single time.

Grandchamp1989

Liukke wrote: »

I've tried to raise a post about this issue:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/553700/3dd-or-4dd-option-for-group-finder#latest

My idea is to create an OPTION in the finder for no class restriction.

This way whoever is experienced and can facetank can just use it and find a party with 3-4DD (just by simple probability) and who wants to keep a more stable party configuration can not use that option and find a balanced one.
Of course, if you spot fake people in the party the #1 is always to kick them or even try reporting (just to add some spice).

But as I said in that post I think a no class option in the finder would "purge" many DDs from the main queue, especially those who just want a quick and dirty run (I personally can solo those dungeons so I seriously just need some "dummies" that take hits while I go).

It's not a finder's problem, there's just so many DDs that it cannot work properly if it needs to find 3 classes every single time.

It is not a bad idea, then you can prepare for it in advance and go in with gear/skills that takes care of your own sustain and healing needs.

Kinda a bummer when you go in now and expect a healer with orb and a tank but you get 4 unequipped DDs so you have to re-do your skill bar midway and change your rotation for sustain.

Liukke

To me it's become the chicken and egg problem.

Finder is unreliable because DDs fake roles.
DDs fake roles because finder is unreliable.

So in my opinion the only option is purging all those DDs with a new feature, there's physically no way to improve the finder, no "optimizations" of any sort and honestly, for as much as I can tell I don't see any weird or bad implications of having a Tick Box with "no class restrictions" and then it's your problem if you end up with 3 more unexperienced DDs.

As I said I'm pretty sure the majority of the experienced DDs will just work fine by themselves, we're talking mostly about the random normal dungeon which really takes no effort and no complete team to be done.
As for looking for specific dungeons (especially veteran ones) it's really not reccomended and if somebody fakes roles there well...seriously reports are needed

Youmee

I also have a suggestion! How about the fake DPS with about 2 - 3 k damage stop queuing for dungeons? The so-called fake tanks usually can go through these dungeons solo, with an exception of a couple of dungs with one-shot mechanics Moon Hunter that has been already mentioned is an example.)

What really hurts is the fake DPS. )

Liukke

Youmee wrote: »

I also have a suggestion! How about the fake DPS with about 2 - 3 k damage stop queuing for dungeons? The so-called fake tanks usually can go through these dungeons solo, with an exception of a couple of dungs with one-shot mechanics Moon Hunter that has been already mentioned is an example.)

What really hurts is the fake DPS. )

Is this a joke, right?
Tanks and healers have for sure faster queues than DDs so it would be a suicide to queue as a DD :'D
And if they can solo it for sure they'll be able to do it with a random party.

So, I don't know what you are ranting about, probably you spend more time on the forum than in the game :'D

If you find people with 2-3k dps it means that they are just inexperienced players...and they have all the right to exist, it happens and honestly for a normal dungeon it's way more than enough

WynnGwynn

Liukke wrote: »

Youmee wrote: »

I also have a suggestion! How about the fake DPS with about 2 - 3 k damage stop queuing for dungeons? The so-called fake tanks usually can go through these dungeons solo, with an exception of a couple of dungs with one-shot mechanics Moon Hunter that has been already mentioned is an example.)

What really hurts is the fake DPS. )

Is this a joke, right?
Tanks and healers have for sure faster queues than DDs so it would be a suicide to queue as a DD :'D
And if they can solo it for sure they'll be able to do it with a random party.

So, I don't know what you are ranting about, probably you spend more time on the forum than in the game :'D

If you find people with 2-3k dps it means that they are just inexperienced players...and they have all the right to exist, it happens and honestly for a normal dungeon it's way more than enough

No, he probably queues as a tank or healer and then wishes the (either tank or healer) were fake because the real dps is so low that the tank and healer are 70 percent of the dps and it's literally mind numbing because you're real instead of fake so your damage isn't 'hybridized' to make up for the lack of dps. You can get tolerable dps by actually trying but most of the people who are bad that queue as dps aren't trying. They're barely doing even any heavy attacks. You can heavy attack only and do more damage than some of the DD that I have been grouped with. I don't get it, but it's a plague even worse than fake tanks.

WynnGwynn

I meant that they don't do anything not even a heavy attack not that they should only heavy attack I just worded it poorly.

Muttsmutt

i think about this thread every now and then and one thing that baffles me is,
why wouldn't you want extra damage in your group?!
why would you ever want a real tank for random dungs?!
stand still self heal go kill.

Liukke

WynnGwynn wrote: »

Liukke wrote: »

Youmee wrote: »

I also have a suggestion! How about the fake DPS with about 2 - 3 k damage stop queuing for dungeons? The so-called fake tanks usually can go through these dungeons solo, with an exception of a couple of dungs with one-shot mechanics Moon Hunter that has been already mentioned is an example.)

What really hurts is the fake DPS. )

Is this a joke, right?
Tanks and healers have for sure faster queues than DDs so it would be a suicide to queue as a DD :'D
And if they can solo it for sure they'll be able to do it with a random party.

So, I don't know what you are ranting about, probably you spend more time on the forum than in the game :'D

If you find people with 2-3k dps it means that they are just inexperienced players...and they have all the right to exist, it happens and honestly for a normal dungeon it's way more than enough

No, he probably queues as a tank or healer and then wishes the (either tank or healer) were fake because the real dps is so low that the tank and healer are 70 percent of the dps and it's literally mind numbing because you're real instead of fake so your damage isn't 'hybridized' to make up for the lack of dps. You can get tolerable dps by actually trying but most of the people who are bad that queue as dps aren't trying. They're barely doing even any heavy attacks. You can heavy attack only and do more damage than some of the DD that I have been grouped with. I don't get it, but it's a plague even worse than fake tanks.

Plague?
Honestly I don't care, this post is not about finding good people, because at the end as I said everyone has the right to be inexperienced and dungeons can fail because of that.
The problem here is that people just fake roles because the finder might take 30 minutes or an hour just to do a 3 minutes run.
And that's not because of any experience issue, is just the finder being too rigid into needing all classes at the same time.

But then if you call it a plague bigger than fake tanks...dunno, just change game if you're struggling doing normals is almost ridicolous, can't blame the system if 4 people can't make a normal dungeon...seriously.

But yep, if the real problem is the fake DDs then let's close this post, shame on us to think of such a dumb idea :'D

Prof_Bawbag

Muttsmutt wrote: »

i think about this thread every now and then and one thing that baffles me is,
why wouldn't you want extra damage in your group?!
why would you ever want a real tank for random dungs?!
stand still self heal go kill.

Random dungeons can include some of the nasty dlc ones. Some of which still have one shot mechanics for the squishes. I've had folk ask why I'm not healing them and usually respond I can't if I'm busy taking the full brunt of the boss and the adds that spawn during some fights. 4 dds are fine in most base game dungeons, not in a lot of dlc dungeons. After all, what's the point in a healer role too if the healer is too busy to heal.

It's no wonder those pug groups are usually disbanded by the 2nd boss in the likes of Marches etc. You're obviously playing a different game from me that places you in the likes of BC1, FG1 every day.

MirandaSharp

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

if they ask: "who wants to do a Vet HM pledge?", literally all the online guildies jump and say: me! It is like back in school when the popular kid gets to select his football team.

I'm usually one of those jumping, and I'm a tank Since we get 5 stones for vet HM, that's the only version I do for pledges these days except for a few DLC dungeons where I'm not up to speed on the mechanics.

Liukke

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

i think about this thread every now and then and one thing that baffles me is,
why wouldn't you want extra damage in your group?!
why would you ever want a real tank for random dungs?!
stand still self heal go kill.

Random dungeons can include some of the nasty dlc ones. Some of which still have one shot mechanics for the squishes. I've had folk ask why I'm not healing them and usually respond I can't if I'm busy taking the full brunt of the boss and the adds that spawn during some fights. 4 dds are fine in most base game dungeons, not in a lot of dlc dungeons. After all, what's the point in a healer role too if the healer is too busy to heal.

It's no wonder those pug groups are usually disbanded by the 2nd boss in the likes of Marches etc. You're obviously playing a different game from me that places you in the likes of BC1, FG1 every day.

[snip]
Is my suggestion about REMOVING class restrictions in the finder or ADDING AN OPTION?

[snip]
AS I SAID, to me it would be cool to add an "[({OPTION})]" to remove class restrictions [snip]

If you don't want that you could still stay in the normal finder [snip]

If pug groups get disbanded on the 2nd boss it's their problem but at least, with my idea, they COULD CHOOSE IT
If you queue in a non class bound finder you know already that you might run into a death group [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Profanity]

Mike0987

What? Just because they cant keep the boss in one spot, facing one direction, so that others can throw down AOEs on him.

Nezyr_Jezz

In all fairnes can you 100% confirm that the "fake tank" that you played with was a DD queuing as a tank? or maybe a pvp tank queuing for pve? or maybe a hybrid build - a tank with a punch but less survivability tools?

I don't queue as a dps anymore. Two reasons:

1: playing with endgame gear makes you farm most of normal/veteran (even dlc) solo. the only reason to queue in a group is to get the loot faster by buying/asking for the pieces other people droped. (and yes, if you faceroll the dungeon as a "fake tank" but fail to taunt one mob so he kills your 12k health teamate your a bad person, but when he does no damage and is basically carried he still smires you here.
2: queue times.

I do understand however that not everyone played endgame VHM content as a maintank and may not understand mechanics. There posts poping here and there about this but in all the fairness. If you think you can do the job better, queue as a proper tank and do it yourself. Tanks are fewer and fewer these days, because noone bothers to get the gear and the experience to do it properly or they are insulted by people wanting to do it faster/the other way/or not caring about the taunting. Xynode said once: you starting the fight you taunting to the end. and i keep it that way. Fastest way for people to learn. Everyone wants to queue with a dd, do a ton of damage (usually way under 20k damage for 810 CP) and then go on with their life.

MirandaSharp

I think the solution is to display basic attributes of the group match up in the GF for you to accept or deny. If could see role, level and health/magicka/stamina distribution of the group members it's up to the players to accept the given group or not. If you deny you get thrown back into the queue just as now, and have to wait for next match up.

If you see the tank has 20K health and 40K stamina it's pretty obvious that it's a dps or solo build. But hey, he may be really good at controlling the battle in his own non-tanky way? And if your dps is low he may be a good boost in the dps department? Or you may get a stamina only healer.... The risk is yours to take.... At least you were informed about it before accepting.

Onigar

Being in a group with a fake Tank, Healer or even DD can just upset the group.

There is also the other side of the coin where someone is a legit Tank, Healer or DD but really not very good at their role. This can also upset the group.

After playing for a long time I don't get upset if the group cannot complete a dungeon and just falls apart and you all leave.
Legit or Fake in the role for me does not matter as long as they are able to step up and do the job.

If you want to solo queue as a fake tank then have some method for taunt.
If you want to solo queue as a fake healer then have some heals.
If you want to solo queue as a fake DD then have some single target and melee DPS capability.

This means you need to think a little in advance how you could step up and do other roles your char is not set up for.
There are addons that let you easily switch skills and gear. You do not need to be a multi purpose role char but by switching gear and skills along with knowing what you are doing in that role wil really help.

But to be fair even when you have a group of players say from the same guild you can have a group of 4 DDs which has been the case many times for me so at the outset 1 chooses tank another heals, and you know you need to basically look after yourself which btw is what you do in solo play.

So with 4DD config anything which is not really so tough should be fine if you are all capable players. Tough = DLC Vet and I would say Moon Hunter Keep on Norm too, Werewolf boss is a bit strong

The final thing I would say is playing ESO is a personal adventure in a created world and as an MMO it involves many people with diverse backgrounds and approach to play so we will not all be sitting around a campfire holding hands and singing songs, there wil be disagreement, there will be some players you like to do things with and others find their way onto your blacklist.
Hmm, sounds a bit like real life, .....

Anyway, time to check if the game is back online

FatFred

I'm a MagSor
I have slotted inner rage and with critical surge no boss in norman duns could possibly kill me.
Am I tank enough to you?

Nezyr_Jezz

FatFred wrote: »

I'm a MagSor
I have slotted inner rage and with critical surge no boss in norman duns could possibly kill me.
Am I tank enough to you?

Slot in pale order and iceheart for good measure XD

tawaen

The game requires you to kill stuff in order to level up (I mean, maybe some absolute monster has fully levelled a toon purely by crafting and exploring, but dear Squirrel Girl why?) so all toons basically have to be DPS for solo. There is no reward in solo play for taunting, buffing, debuffing that is not significantly outclassed just by hitting things with a big stick.

There will always be WAY more DPS than there will be support classes - the game is literally designed to reward killing things over any other mechanic for all the solo content needed to level and complete quests. That is what players find fun and rewarding.

Given that - it might be easier to get more people to create tanks and healers (or multi-class with more focus on tank/heal skills) if there were more achievements/titles or other vanity items for being a successful damage sink or dodger, or bringing people back from near death, etc. (Achievement: Took a meteor to the face and didn't die! Reward: Face-paint showing off your epic burns.) Any reward that was purely tied to selected role would only exacerbate the queue problem with people bringing more tanks-with-no-taunt and heals-with-no-group-heals. But achievements or other rewards that give you a boost for playing in a supportive way could be a carrot to increase the number of people who actually want to fulfill the support role. Getting more people to play as tanks and healers, and hopefully getting them into the queue.

The goal shouldn't be getting people to play a certain skillset - it should be getting them to play cooperatively and supporting the group when they join group content. If the game basically only rewards you for DPS in solo, then expecting people to change their entire game-play when they go to groups is challenging... So the game should give them a reason to make that change.

(Obviously the reward in support classes when you do groups with guildees and friends is getting invited back next time to do harder content, and making friends. For PUGS, we need more carrots, apparently. I'm not sure more reporting systems will help with that, even if they make people feel better in the short-term.)

DigitalHype

Liukke wrote: »

Youmee wrote: »

I also have a suggestion! How about the fake DPS with about 2 - 3 k damage stop queuing for dungeons? The so-called fake tanks usually can go through these dungeons solo, with an exception of a couple of dungs with one-shot mechanics Moon Hunter that has been already mentioned is an example.)

What really hurts is the fake DPS. )

Is this a joke, right?
Tanks and healers have for sure faster queues than DDs so it would be a suicide to queue as a DD :'D
And if they can solo it for sure they'll be able to do it with a random party.

So, I don't know what you are ranting about, probably you spend more time on the forum than in the game :'D

If you find people with 2-3k dps it means that they are just inexperienced players...and they have all the right to exist, it happens and honestly for a normal dungeon it's way more than enough

Exactly right. They are incorrectly labeling "bad" dps as "fake" dps in order to establish a false equivalency. There is a difference. Intent matters.

Tigertron

If ZOS would allow me to solo que for a daily dungeon and let me have my 10 transmute crystals I would just leave you be. I honestly don't need a group for the non vet daily. I might need someone to stand on a plate or something but if that's the case I can skip it or find someone to stand on it. I just need the crystals.

Lowbowski5

I agree that this has become such a issue That I literally learned how to tank so I can eliminate the factor of a fake tank issue when I que.
Its honestly not hard to hold Taunt and survive as long as you know when to block and Heavy attack.
However in doing this I've discovered new Issues. Soooo many dps Que as Fake Healers as well, Which could make some groups struggle however I've learned to adapt and that's why Whenever I tank pug groups I carry a Resto with Raditating Regeneration and the Life Giver Ulti , basically ended up Tanking and Healing.
The worst is when you get those new player's with really bad dps and you end up doing more damage on your tank than they do -_-

Prof_Bawbag

Liukke wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

i think about this thread every now and then and one thing that baffles me is,
why wouldn't you want extra damage in your group?!
why would you ever want a real tank for random dungs?!
stand still self heal go kill.

Random dungeons can include some of the nasty dlc ones. Some of which still have one shot mechanics for the squishes. I've had folk ask why I'm not healing them and usually respond I can't if I'm busy taking the full brunt of the boss and the adds that spawn during some fights. 4 dds are fine in most base game dungeons, not in a lot of dlc dungeons. After all, what's the point in a healer role too if the healer is too busy to heal.

It's no wonder those pug groups are usually disbanded by the 2nd boss in the likes of Marches etc. You're obviously playing a different game from me that places you in the likes of BC1, FG1 every day.

[snip]
Is my suggestion about REMOVING class restrictions in the finder or ADDING AN OPTION?

[snip]
AS I SAID, to me it would be cool to add an "[({OPTION})]" to remove class restrictions [snip]

If you don't want that you could still stay in the normal finder [snip]

If pug groups get disbanded on the 2nd boss it's their problem but at least, with my idea, they COULD CHOOSE IT
If you queue in a non class bound finder you know already that you might run into a death group [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Profanity]

Calm down mate. Like seriously. You're talking about a game lmao. If this is how you react when talking about something insignificant, then wow.

cynicalbutterfly

Muttsmutt wrote: »

i think about this thread every now and then and one thing that baffles me is,
why wouldn't you want extra damage in your group?!
why would you ever want a real tank for random dungs?!
stand still self heal go kill.

I know right... Personally, I could care less who is fake and who is real. As long as you can hold your own in the battles we cool. Just don't be the moron standing in the fire. As a healer that's my biggest pet peeve tbh.

Faiza

Isnt it equally possible that the player is a tank and is just...really bad?

I don't want to cast doubt that this happens, because it does, but not all of your dungeon finder woes are because of the actions of a dps.

Did Moongrave Fane yesterday for the pledge with a tank, a specced tank mind you, who was so sure that the mechanics didn't matter that we wiped three times on each boss. Come the final boss they "dc'd" aka ragequit so we had to do it just 2dps and a healer (which went surprisingly well btw, and we were able to turn in our pledge lol).

Pixative

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

snip

You were the one who started baiting fam. He didn't say anything wrong and you showed up and started calling him names, then tattled and told him to calm down when he argued back lol. Really basic and transparent trolling

Liukke

Tigertron wrote: »

If ZOS would allow me to solo que for a daily dungeon and let me have my 10 transmute crystals I would just leave you be. I honestly don't need a group for the non vet daily. I might need someone to stand on a plate or something but if that's the case I can skip it or find someone to stand on it. I just need the crystals.

That would be heaven!

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Liukke wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Muttsmutt wrote: »

i think about this thread every now and then and one thing that baffles me is,
why wouldn't you want extra damage in your group?!
why would you ever want a real tank for random dungs?!
stand still self heal go kill.

Random dungeons can include some of the nasty dlc ones. Some of which still have one shot mechanics for the squishes. I've had folk ask why I'm not healing them and usually respond I can't if I'm busy taking the full brunt of the boss and the adds that spawn during some fights. 4 dds are fine in most base game dungeons, not in a lot of dlc dungeons. After all, what's the point in a healer role too if the healer is too busy to heal.

It's no wonder those pug groups are usually disbanded by the 2nd boss in the likes of Marches etc. You're obviously playing a different game from me that places you in the likes of BC1, FG1 every day.

[snip]
Is my suggestion about REMOVING class restrictions in the finder or ADDING AN OPTION?

[snip]
AS I SAID, to me it would be cool to add an "[({OPTION})]" to remove class restrictions [snip]

If you don't want that you could still stay in the normal finder [snip]

If pug groups get disbanded on the 2nd boss it's their problem but at least, with my idea, they COULD CHOOSE IT
If you queue in a non class bound finder you know already that you might run into a death group [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Profanity]

Calm down mate. Like seriously. You're talking about a game lmao. If this is how you react when talking about something insignificant, then wow.

Ahahaha I'm sorry didn't mean to sound nervous.
But that person completely misread my post and I thought that capsing things might help whoever reads to focus on the important parts of my message.
If you read both messages you'll see that he goes to a totally different point and I just rewrote in caps the parts that I was suggesting :'D

renne

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.

Nah... and I can't believe I've defending a fake tank here but to be fair, I feel like someone dying at the final boss in Spindleclutch 1 isn't a legit complaint at the moment given how the boss is bugged and has a move that locks you in a running on the spot movement. I can solo that dungeon too and was in there with a group a couple days ago where we all died multiple times because of it.

Liukke

renne wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Me as DD and the healer qued together for random vet.

Got spindleclutch 1

Fake tank with decent damage.

They ran ahead of the group, pulled and killed mobs.

Final boss

They died like 3 times we had to get them up and save them multiple times.
Luckily we didn't go down but our "tank" sure did lol.
Luckily I have solo'd it before in vet so new what to expect but sometimes you never know lol.

People tend to be overconfident in their own abilities when they que fake and then reality hits.
Then the team has to bail you out.

Nah... and I can't believe I've defending a fake tank here but to be fair, I feel like someone dying at the final boss in Spindleclutch 1 isn't a legit complaint at the moment given how the boss is bugged and has a move that locks you in a running on the spot movement. I can solo that dungeon too and was in there with a group a couple days ago where we all died multiple times because of it.

Yeah but that's you.
Think of it from a "newbie" perspective.

You queue for a dungeon, you get into it and the final boss just slaps and oneshots you.
All this because the tank didn't keep it for himself.

Of course it's Spindleclutch and it's bugged as hell but this might happen in other vet dungeons as well.

We are not all endgame players.
There's people "trying" vet dungeons and they need all the support from a 4 people team.

You can solo it?
Yeah sure but every once in a while the boss is turning around and slapping people, which usually is the duty of a tank to perform.

The whole point is not if people can solo vet dungeons, is if it's right for somebody to decide to take out the tank role from a queue just by switching it.
I can happily decide for myself but forcing 3 other people to bear with my stupidity is maybe too much.

Raideen

A good fake tank is better than a bad real tank.

Personally I like to queue as a fake tank on my DPS templar, and have my GF queue as a fake healer on her DPS sorc for vanilla normals.


The issue I have come across lately is fake healers, or just lazy ones. I had a healer in a vet earlier do the least amount of DPS and the least amount of healing. I was on a sorc and I was top healing. The other DPS was second for healing, our tank was 3rd for healing and our healer was last place for healing. 810cp and a vet...go figure.