Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Ratinira

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Translation from Google: "How much the topic has preoccupied us and how seriously we take it can be seen on closer inspection from the fact that it was analyzed and discussed for over a month and only then received an official answer from above.

Translation:" one month later and they are still don't let that topic die. Answer them.. anything... so they shut up already"

The fact how seriously they take it is very crearly seen from the official out of topic answer...

Toanis

The change annoyed me too, but by now protesting against it is a waste of time and energy.

A brief summary from a very casual PVPer, that had to get Rapids back on lowbies parked for leveling their riding-skills and some bank chars that sometimes do writs and events:

- Do BGs. With 7 BGs you get from Assault 2 to 5, that takes 2-3 hours and you even get some achievements and skillpoints.
- Participate and it might actually be fun. Just pretend its a 4-man arena/dungeon, kill red, support blue, you know the deal.
- My personal highlight was a level 11 banking char getting top score in a death match (what the...)
- My very first char, parked at level 30ish and used for banking since MW release is now reborn as a Bombblade. Enjoy.

Jaraal

Post makes no sense now, never mind.

[Edited to remove Conspiracy Theories]

markulrich1966

Jaraal wrote: »

Guys, stop with the suggestions on how to make Rapids easier to get. They know all about that, they've heard them all a thousand times.

[snip]

We can beg, cry, cancel subscriptions, even quit playing the game, but it's not going to change [snip] They even stated that they are "happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it." [snip]

The horse is already long gone from the barn in the form of players who have bailed. There's no benefit in them closing the barn door now. [snip]

some take longer to learn. I think ZOS actually thinks that the loss of 19% steam players in september was caused by Corona recovery (some players stated that this likely was the reason).
However, I saw other games, where the number INcreased up to 60% in september, so the corona theory seems not very convincing to me.

So I think it is ok to remind ZOS that choices have consequences, and this choice obviously made quite some players very unhappy playing the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ratinira wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Translation from Google: "How much the topic has preoccupied us and how seriously we take it can be seen on closer inspection from the fact that it was analyzed and discussed for over a month and only then received an official answer from above.

Translation:" one month later and they are still don't let that topic die. Answer them.. anything... so they shut up already"

The fact how seriously they take it is very crearly seen from the official out of topic answer...

I have a slightly different "translation".
My translation would go like : "We've taken the time to listen carefully and tp analyze your actions following the change. What we saw and read confirmed our initial intuition : you players love rapids so much that it was high time we rebalanced the two ways it can be obtained, making the other way more attractive. "

Analogy : if you were a shop owner and the crowd would gather in front of your shop, saying how much they love and need Product P... would you actually make the price of Product P lower or higher ?

Ratinira

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I have a slightly different "translation".

No contradictions. Your translation is about reason, mine is about their answers:)

Marginis

I've given up on trying to make my speed be decent. Just makes the game slower and more boring and tedious and less enjoyable. You can still play and everything.

rpa

For me, rapids is no way necessary to keep playing the game. I've bought the game and chapters from sale and feel it's well worth of the cheap price. However quality of life in this game is so low I feel it's not worth sub this time for me. And making it worse does not help.

I've actually started a new char and will try levelling Assault when she gets to lv 10 just to see how horrible it can be for someone with no previous PvP experience in this game, with slow mount and no rapids.

(I played many years a PvP game and also have experience of PvP in another MMO. Totally casual.)

silvereyes

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The new consumables, while not confirmed to having a crown store equivalent, may only strengthen that conclusion if they did.

They are already confirmed as having Crown store equivalents:
https://youtu.be/5Ws3W2iFNXw?t=241
Starts at 4:01

Edit: I just confirmed that they are in the Crown store on PTS, so this isn't just some data-mined artwork that will never be released.

JoeCapricorn

Then that is simply more evidence that the Rapid Maneuver change was about getting people to spend crowns to get it back.

Jaraal

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Then that is simply more evidence that the Rapid Maneuver change was about getting people to spend crowns to get it back.

We aren't supposed to talk about that. Ask me how I know.



Actually, don't. Some things can't be discussed.

markulrich1966 wrote: »

So I think it is ok to remind ZOS that choices have consequences, and this choice obviously made quite some players very unhappy playing the game.

And they are officially happy with the choice.

harvey07

ahahahahaha. i just knew was a matter of time before something in the crown store would be related to this change. this is beginning to remind of when Rift started throwing everything in the Rift Store.

CipherNine

Its all about putting everything in the crown store. patch after patch is heading in that direction. monetization on everything they can think of

silvereyes

joerginger wrote: »

Unfortunately the handful of people like me who cancelled their subscription on one account and won't renew their subscription on another account is a number that's completely insignificant in comparison with the number of people who desperately want to pay more and more for less and less.

With the size of revenue from Chapters and Crowns, I too wonder how much good a protest unsub really does. Many warned with the advent of the Crown store that it would cause a steady erosion of the relationship between devs and the community, and that does seem to have happened quite a lot over the last couple of years. I unsubbed a while ago myself, but so far, it seems like mostly an exercise in self-flagellation. A subscription just doesn't carry the same voting-with-your-dollars power that it used to.

While the ever-increasing monetization pisses me off, ZOS did pleasantly surprise me with the absolutely game-changing Set Collections feature that they are giving away for free in the base game next Update, which must have taken them a lot of development time. I'm sure they probably had to justify it to the money folks by proving that it provides new monetization opportunities, but I'm very pleased that there is at least someone at ZOS who is fighting for genuine QoL improvements to the base game even at this late stage in its life. It's still a fantastic game - when the servers are working at least - and I imagine I'll keep coming back for a long time. Warts and all, it's still a more enjoyable game for me than most of the competition.

Hurbster

Install the game, get my free stuff, uninstall the game.

There may be a time when I start subbing again, but not for a while by the looks of it. Up to ZoS really.

Flaaklypa

Jaraal wrote: »

frontend wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

I feel like I'm in a time warp when I see stamina healing using Vigor as the reason for this swap. 3 or 4 years ago? Sure, OK. Almost no stamina build had viable self healing options back then.

But now? I can't think of any class that can't do a stamina build with self-healing without touching vigor.

Agreed.

The only time I will ever slot Vigor on any of my stamina characters is if I'm doing casual group events like dragons or harrowstorms. And it's only the AOE morph, to help other players stay alive. I don't have the self only morph on any of my guys. They all have better self-healing options.

Which makes it even more curious that they keep touting the necessity (all of a sudden, after six years) of this spell for stamina players.

Do they even play their own game?

Do you even play pvp?

Vigor is a must have there for every stam build in the game

If you're relying on stamina group heals, I would ask you the same question.

I've been Alliance Rank 10 for a long time, and I don't slot Vigor in Cyro or IC. Battle Spirit makes it a very poor choice, as it won't outheal any but the weakest of incoming damage.

Of those who actually use it, I would say the vast majority use it in PvE.

That is so ridiculusly wrong, i dont even know where to start. Every solo pvper has the self healing vigor slotted. Its a must have. MUST. if you are a "pvp" player without vigor, you are not a very hardcore player, as you are just handicapping yourself by not using a good heal.

Vigor is useless with battlespirit? what? Vigor is still a very strong heal in cyrodiil.

If you truly believe vigor is most used in PvE, and not PvP, you do not play pvp much, and have no idea what you are talking about.

pkostadinov

Peeking back after a week not playing ESO ... and found we have an answer. Not very useful one and not to the problem most people here had, but still something.

And the question as I understand it is:
Why any well-meaning game designer will make his/her game less fun for the players?

This isn't about Vigor - let it sit where it is now - that was the good change, no matter for how many people it is relevant.
This is about why you make a skill that makes you game more enjoyable for ALL new toons - unavailable without a grind?
And "because of Vigor" is a poor (borderline insulting) answer, useful when nobody wants to give the real one.
Then the questions becomes - why not swap with Siege shield, where nobody will complain?

It was said many times here, that putting Rapids behind 2-3 hour grind per character hurts almost anybody in PvP and PvE, minus the few people that didn't use it for some reason.
Worse, the change defeats the original intent for the skill - to be more agile when playing on a new character in Cyrodill.
This is how you make new players stick to an experience, not by making them suffer for 3 hours.
The change alone will lose players for Alliance PvP - most people do not list "riding a horse" as their number one reason to enter a campaign, right? I thought most prefer more fighting and less riding ...
So, why for a change not make the content more fun, instead of adding artificial incentives like recipe drops?

To get back to the question above "Why any well-meaning game designer will make his/her game less fun for the players?" - there are few legitimate answers to this, like:
- It is difficult to change requirements for skill lines or do something more than simple skill swap (is a 3 skill swap difficult?) and we are either lazy or nobody gives us the time to do it better. (I think this is unlikely the case, but no PR will allow such answer anyway.)
- Someone in the skill design team has a very strong opinion and is not good at taking feedback - a.k.a. stubborn developer. (Another unlikely scenario, giving the fact that nobody shared any strong opinion with us - and no, Vigor explanation is not one.)
- It is an intended monetization plan, making part of the game frustrating, to make players spend money to make it enjoyable again. (Given how many other companies do this ... you can bet how likely this is.)

From these 3 cases, only the second has a very small chances to be acknowledged directly by a CM, so I don't hold much hope of getting a straight answer.

Why I didn't list the case when they honestly decided it is a good tradeof and just stick to it?
Because there isn't any tradeof necessary - Vigor can stay where it is and Rapids can be for no more than rank 3 in at least two ways that doesn't look difficult to do. So any honest opinion like this will go into case 2 with all the given feedback and any real technical difficulties will reduce it to case 1.

zergbase_ESO

Fact this post still going after they said No. lol. Also of course ZOS going sell that. They’re becoming EA in terms of loot boxes and other things. As well you can still level and get skill line. At this point you’re all that kid that screams in store for ice cream after mom said no.

allhailskippy

zergbase_ESO wrote: »

Fact this post still going after they said No. lol. Also of course ZOS going sell that. They’re becoming EA in terms of loot boxes and other things. As well you can still level and get skill line. At this point you’re all that kid that screams in store for ice cream after mom said no.

What they said is that they were happy with the change they made to Vigor. And I haven't seen a single post so far that disagrees with them.

We still haven't heard any word on Rapids. Which many of us would still like to see changed.

zergbase_ESO

allhailskippy wrote: »

zergbase_ESO wrote: »

Fact this post still going after they said No. lol. Also of course ZOS going sell that. They’re becoming EA in terms of loot boxes and other things. As well you can still level and get skill line. At this point you’re all that kid that screams in store for ice cream after mom said no.

What they said is that they were happy with the change they made to Vigor. And I haven't seen a single post so far that disagrees with them.

We still haven't heard any word on Rapids. Which many of us would still like to see changed.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

^ Yeah they aren't moving it anytime soon. That is what that post clearly tells me. LOL.

Jaraal

frontend wrote: »

That is so ridiculusly wrong, i dont even know where to start. Every solo pvper has the self healing vigor slotted. Its a must have. MUST. if you are a "pvp" player without vigor, you are not a very hardcore player, as you are just handicapping yourself by not using a good heal.

Most people in Cyro don't play solo. Most people in Cyro are getting better group heals. Try again.

Most solo PvP players have better self-heals, or else play glass cannon builds that use those slots for damage stacking skills. Try again.



I wonder how so many PvP players have been able to survive to Alliance Rank 5 without Vigor for six years?

sup

@Jaraal Basically every stam pvper uses vigor. Look at any build guide or just use your eyes in Cyrodiil. You're just plain wrong.

lozq

sup wrote: »

@Jaraal Basically every stam pvper uses vigor. Look at any build guide or just use your eyes in Cyrodiil. You're just plain wrong.

This. I was in cyro all evening and barely went five seconds without seeing someone fire off vigor. Stamblades have two class heals, both magicka, both HOT's and both absolutely pathetic if you're stam specced.

Without wanting to stoke the fire, I honestly don't consider this to be a grind when you compare it to so many other things that are genuinely grindy. Psijic order, mages guild, scrying, gold farming, mat farming...almost everything else takes more time than levelling up your AVA rank a few measly clicks. I've already done it on a few alts, and it takes a couple of hours tops of proactive PVP or PVDooring. You even score quite a few skill points and transmute crystals along the way, which is super handy for new toons. And unless your mount is decently speed levelled you'll still be lagging behind everyone if you're racing around the map, even with rapids.

The way I see it, any longterm player probably already has it unlocked or has the nous to re-unlock it in very short order. Most new players, because they're probably going by the '100k DPS Immortal Assassin' build they found on youtube, will have no idea it even exists and won't give a toss.

esotoon

lozq wrote: »

This. I was in cyro all evening and barely went five seconds without seeing someone fire off vigor. Stamblades have two class heals, both magicka, both HOT's and both absolutely pathetic if you're stam specced.

He is not wrong. It is just some people being hyperbolic with their use of the word "everyone". Stam players in large group with dedicated healers often don't use Vigor. Magic users don't use Vigor. Some small group/solo players don't use Vigor. However a large portion of Stam users do use Vigor in PVP.

Without wanting to stoke the fire, I honestly don't consider this to be a grind when you compare it to so many other things that are genuinely grindy. Psijic order, mages guild, scrying, gold farming, mat farming...almost everything else takes more time than levelling up your AVA rank a few measly clicks.

You are right, compared to those other grinds it doesn't take that long. I suspect that this is the excuse the developers used when making the decision. However, you have to remember that many people have toons that had rapids for years, and they logged on one day having that skill taken away, only to be told that they now had to grind to get that skill back again. And what's more, there was no justifiable reason as to why this happened (Vigor could have been made easily accessible without penalising anyone).

Once you realise that this was done for no reason, it is hard to stomach the fact that you are now going to have to give up (potentially) days of your life to get the skill back.

Now look at your last point about new players not knowing about Rapids and therefore not giving a toss in relation to the grinds you just mentioned. Every one of those grinds, with the possible exception of Mat farming, will now be much longer for players who don't have rapids. For example, the lack of Rapids adds approx 2 hours to the psijic grind.

I've already done it on a few alts, and it takes a couple of hours tops of proactive PVP or PVDooring. You even score quite a few skill points and transmute crystals along the way, which is super handy for new toons. And unless your mount is decently speed levelled you'll still be lagging behind everyone if you're racing around the map, even with rapids.

But the fact remains, whilst those extra goodies are nice, you would have earned even more of them, if you had started with Rapids, and had to grind for Vigor. And if it is as easy and not that big a deal as you suggest, wouldn't it be better to leave it as it was so that the grind for Vigor is faster and more rewarding than the grind for Rapids?

silvereyes

lozq wrote: »

Without wanting to stoke the fire, I honestly don't consider this to be a grind when you compare it to so many other things that are genuinely grindy. Psijic order, mages guild, scrying, gold farming, mat farming...almost everything else takes more time than levelling up your AVA rank

I don't disagree that those other things take up more time, and I'm happy that you aren't much bothered by the change, but I'd like to make several observations:

• Comparing against other grinds is a bit of a red herring. We've had access to Rapids grind-free for six years, and that is what we are comparing against. Those other activities have had a consistent experience since day one, so their grinds are already priced-in, so to speak.
• Whether new players in Cyrodiil know about Rapids or not is immaterial. All they will know when they show up to play is that Cyrodiil is a slow, boring horse simulator. In fact, not being aware that Rapids is even a thing is likely to lead to an even higher bounce rate than if it were more obvious, since they won't know that the experience gets better once they've leveled a bit.
• All of those other grinds are much worse without rapids
• Whether something feels like a grind or not is very subjective. PvP is very intimidating for a lot of people.
• All of those other grinds can be done with bad gear, no group, a single skill and no experience. The barrier to entry is much lower than for PvP.
• For an altaholic or person that relies on lots of crafting alts for writs, that "not-that-bad" grind adds up quite a bit. I myself am in both camps, and have already burnt out on the PvP grind after 8 characters.

Sarannah

The rapid manoeuvre change is fine... it was strange that players with 1 skillpoint could outrun those who spend 60/180 days of horsefeeding, or outrun those who bought crownstore mountspeed.

A compromise could be: When a character has 180 horse feedings, he automatically gets limitless rapid manoeuvre applied when mounted(regardless of assault rank). This would reward all those who fed their mounts, and gives other players the chance to earn it for free when they spend time feeding their horse(or crownstore). This would also prevent players who spend 1 skillpoint to be faster than those who spend 180 days horse feeding. That way players can choose how they want to get rapid manoeuvre, with assault rank 5 and 1 skillpoint OR for free with 180 horsefeeding.

FrancisCrawford

I hate this change, for all the standard reasons. And what I'm about to say below doesn't change that. However:

Set collections is potentially giving every alt a major speed buff.

Why? Because you can now get a Ring of The Wild Hunt that's appropriate to your level, at any level.

esotoon

Sarannah wrote: »

The rapid manoeuvre change is fine... it was strange that players with 1 skillpoint could outrun those who spend 60/180 days of horsefeeding, or outrun those who bought crownstore mountspeed.

Why is this strange, when those people could quite easily, simply go get Rapids and not be outrun any more? It's the equivalent of finding it strange that someone casting a skill does more damage than a heavy attack.

silvereyes

Sarannah wrote: »

The rapid manoeuvre change is fine... it was strange that players with 1 skillpoint could outrun those who spend 60/180 days of horsefeeding, or outrun those who bought crownstore mountspeed.

Why was it strange?

• Major Gallop is a separate, stackable buff, independent of mount training. The behavior is consistent with every other major/minor buff in the game. Ignoring Rapids, if there were a craftable armor set providing the Major Gallop buff (something I think they should do, btw), the situation would be the same.
• All players level 10 and above had access to the exact same Major Gallop buff. There's no reason to compare someone with a Major Gallop buff to someone with maxed out mount speed training. In a race, both players would have Major Gallop, and the one with a better trained horse would always win.
• Comparing the relative speed of speed buffs is kind of pointless. They are just different, independent ways of increasing a stat. It's like saying, "why can someone who maxes out their Pack Merchant upgrades store more than someone who spends 60 days training their mount carrying capacity?"

Edit: one more point:

• Even if it mattered, locking Rapids behind a PvP grind still doesn't change the relative strength of Major Gallop vs. mount speed training. It only accentuates the disparity, since now there will be haves and have-nots for Rapids.

Jaraal

And the Charging Maneuver morph gives you both Major and Minor Expedition together for a 40% speed boost.

The Minor portion expires after 8 seconds, but can be refreshed to keep it on along with Major Gallop.