Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

virtus753

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I hate this change, for all the standard reasons. And what I'm about to say below doesn't change that. However:

Set collections is potentially giving every alt a major speed buff.

Why? Because you can now get a Ring of The Wild Hunt that's appropriate to your level, at any level.

Per reports from the PTS, mythic items can’t be made below gear cap.

silvereyes

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I hate this change, for all the standard reasons. And what I'm about to say below doesn't change that. However:

Set collections is potentially giving every alt a major speed buff.

Why? Because you can now get a Ring of The Wild Hunt that's appropriate to your level, at any level.

This is false. There is no way to select level, as far as I can tell on PTS. On the level 25 template char, the ring gets reconstructed as CP 160. Also, putting aside the fact that Ring of the Wild Hunt is Chapter-locked and costs transmute crystals, it also doesn't affect mount speed at all.



Edit: I also forgot that it's DLC-locked as well, since you need Murkmire.

rpa

I've now tested what happens when one goes to Cryo sub 50 with a lv10 character with whatever dropped gear and no idea how to pvp in this game. Answer: not much, at least not much AP. After doing the intro I had great difficulties to find any enemy players to test how how many seconds I'd survive a fight (as expected, not many) and found almost nothing to repair.
Appears I'd have slowly ooze around bored to tears and do scouting missions or something like that. Wunderbar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDEVQeZcJ-s

Sarannah

Because 180 days of training should outweight simply placing a skillpoint. In my opinion it should even outweight the rank 5 assault requirement. As logging in to feed your horse for 180 days straight is alot more work than just placing one skillpoint.

Rapid manoeuvre was way too powerful for such a low requirement. This is why applying it freely to anyone mounted with 180 horse feeding should be a fair compromise. As everyone can than get it for free if they feed their horses for 180 days, or they can get it faster by unlocking assault rank 5(or using the crownstore). This would be the most fair solution, and it would level out the effort vs gain of alts vs seasoned characters. While at the same time take away the PvP requirement.

rpa

Sarannah wrote: »

Because 180 days of training should outweight simply placing a skillpoint. In my opinion it should even outweight the rank 5 assault requirement. As logging in to feed your horse for 180 days straight is alot more work than just placing one skillpoint.

Rapid manoeuvre was way too powerful for such a low requirement. This is why applying it freely to anyone mounted with 180 horse feeding should be a fair compromise. As everyone can than get it for free if they feed their horses for 180 days, or they can get it faster by unlocking assault rank 5(or using the crownstore). This would be the most fair solution, and it would level out the effort vs gain of alts vs seasoned characters. While at the same time take away the PvP requirement.

You are ignoring that running is pretty powerfull, it's faster than unfed mount! and everyone gets it free. I think running should be made available only after playing a character half year walking only. Unless they have already walked on 180 days to unlock running on one character and buy the running skill update for each new character from Crown store of course.

Edit: When this will be fixed, everyone - old and new player - will have to unlock running of course.

Ratinira

Sarannah wrote: »

Because 180 days of training should outweight simply placing a skillpoint.

There is no contradiction between this actions. There is no choise between "feed horse" and "use rapid". You can do both.
So I do not understand what you are even talking about...

esotoon

Sarannah wrote: »

Because 180 days of training should outweight simply placing a skillpoint. In my opinion it should even outweight the rank 5 assault requirement. As logging in to feed your horse for 180 days straight is alot more work than just placing one skillpoint.

Rapid manoeuvre was way too powerful for such a low requirement. This is why applying it freely to anyone mounted with 180 horse feeding should be a fair compromise. As everyone can than get it for free if they feed their horses for 180 days, or they can get it faster by unlocking assault rank 5(or using the crownstore). This would be the most fair solution, and it would level out the effort vs gain of alts vs seasoned characters. While at the same time take away the PvP requirement.

A fairer solution to what exactly? Everyone has access to Rapids, and everyone can feed their horse. And as has been explained, they are different mechanics within the game. One is to do with buffs, one is to do with levelling your horse. There is no unfairness here in relation to the thread topic. On top of this, the fact that it takes 60 days to get your mount speed to the fastest level has nothing to do with the 'power' of having a fast mount. It was done for retention. To get players to have to log in daily because logging in daily encourages people to play more and come to think of the game as a hobby rather than a game, and therefore be more inclined to spend more (this has since been complimented by the Daily login rewards). And once the Crown Store was introduced, it had the added benefit of encouraging people to buy riding lessons. (So if anything, you should be asking for it to take less time to level a mount, because in a fair world, your access to a fast mount (or any skill), shouldn't be delayed due to ZOS' need to manipulate their player base. )

Your main beef seems to be about a separate issue to this thread's topic. The fact that in a fair world something that takes longer to get should be more powerful than something that can be got more easily. Which makes sense logically, but not when it comes to games, which have to take other factors into account to make the game enjoyable. If you take a look at the majority of skills, not just Rapids, you will find they are not distributed 'fairly'. e.g. Why does a Templar get Jabs before Javelin and Shards when Jabs is a more powerful DPS skill and therefore should be harder to get in a fair world? Why do Sorcs get an extremely powerful execute potentially within minutes of starting the game, where as two handed users have to grind for hours to get their execute, shouldn't it be the same in a fair world? So if you want to apply fairness in terms of time put in verses the power level of the reward you get, why stop at Rapids?

Just a suggestion, but if you want to suggest that skills should be more powerful based on the amount of time it takes to get them so that things are fairer, then perhaps you would be better off starting a separate thread asking for this? That way people can more freely discuss with you the pros and cons of this, especially in relation to game design, without having to derail this thread?

Jaraal

rpa wrote: »

I've now tested what happens when one goes to Cryo sub 50 with a lv10 character with whatever dropped gear and no idea how to pvp in this game. Answer: not much, at least not much AP. After doing the intro I had great difficulties to find any enemy players to test how how many seconds I'd survive a fight (as expected, not many) and found almost nothing to repair.

Yeah, it's not much fun running around Cyrodiil on foot. I wouldn't bother wasting time to test it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took a half an hour to get from one end of the zone to another. At least you will be helping to reduce Cyro lag with your slow and steady server data call demands. And you certainly won't be winning many fights, because even if you manage to get the upper hand on a dedicated PvPer, they will just Rapids away from you on foot to safety.

And honestly, even if you could easily find walls and doors to fix, it would still take you hours and tens of thousands of gold spent for repair kits, at 55+ AP per repair. (You can increase this number by repairing certain keeps, or with a low faction population AP bonus, or by using healing passives, skills, and gear that increases the amount of damage you can "heal" on the walls).

I think it would be much easier and faster to just go to Imperial City and capture flags. Assuming there are no enemy players in the area, which is quite common these days, all you have to do is fight and kill three enemy NPCs and stand on the flag for a minute until it flips to your alliance. That's a quick and easy 1500 AP for a couple minutes work. Of course, there's a good chance enemy players will come and kill you.... but there's also a chance that PvPers from your faction will come and kill your killers. If this happens, lay there dead by the flag and you will collect AP when your guys kill them. Then just release to your base and run 20 seconds to the next flag, and repeat.

Iselin

Sarannah wrote: »

Because 180 days of training should outweight simply placing a skillpoint. In my opinion it should even outweight the rank 5 assault requirement. As logging in to feed your horse for 180 days straight is alot more work than just placing one skillpoint.

Rapid manoeuvre was way too powerful for such a low requirement. This is why applying it freely to anyone mounted with 180 horse feeding should be a fair compromise. As everyone can than get it for free if they feed their horses for 180 days, or they can get it faster by unlocking assault rank 5(or using the crownstore). This would be the most fair solution, and it would level out the effort vs gain of alts vs seasoned characters. While at the same time take away the PvP requirement.

That's another whole can of worms you're opening. 180 days doesn't seem excessive to you?

But hey that's been there since day one so it's not extra inconvenience for a basic game function. The loss of rapids IS a newly added inconvenience by losing a significant speed boost that we've always had at level 10 with not much effort required.

PvPers don't really care much since getting rapids for us is still pretty easy. The people really inconvenienced by this are the PvErs who only ever went to Cyrodiil to do the tutorial mission, grab a couple of easy skill points and got rapids that at least let their mount speed be competitive vs. running foot speed while they slowly level their mounted speed... inconvenience X number of alts.

Cash shop relief in the form of crown riding lessons from inconvenience that has always been there is one thing but making rapids harder to get makes many think that this is adding extra inconvenience in order to make crown convenience items more attractive.

I'm not going to get into conspiracy theories about whether that was the real motive but I certainly understand where those who think that are coming from.

Jaraal

Iselin wrote: »

PvPers don't really care much since getting rapids for us is still pretty easy. The people really inconvenienced by this are the PvErs who only ever went to Cyrodiil to do the tutorial mission, grab a couple of easy skill points and got rapids that at least let their mount speed be competitive vs. running foot speed while they slowly level their mounted speed... inconvenience X number of alts.

Yeah, I enjoy PvPing on my guys who didn't lose Rapids, but those are the guys who invested in PvP gear, skills, passives, and Champion Points. To have to go through all that on 10 - 15 alts who folks have no interest in PvPing with shows a serious disconnect with the players..... unless there are other reasons.

newtinmpls

esotoon wrote: »

Quick question for you. Why do you have so much faith in ZOS' ability to monitor their player's needs, when they have just admitted to you that it has taken them over 6 years to give their players easy access to Vigor, a skill which they consider "a must-have for Stamina build survivability"?

Ewww...you raise a good point.

But I never really thought that skill was that important to my stamina characters.. there are plenty of other stamina heals; but NO other horse speed buffs

esotoon

Iselin wrote: »

[PvPers don't really care much since getting rapids for us is still pretty easy

Don’t they? I don’t know about you, but most PVPers I know like having multiple characters. When they level a new alt, they generally grab rapids at lvl 10 and go power level their way to 50, grab all the skyshards, lorebooks, skill point quests, etc, and level the skills they need. It’s at that point they go PVP. In order to do that now, they have to spend potentially several hours PVPing on a level 10 character with a (possibly) slow horse, no rapids, and few skills. Whilst that might not phase them in terms of not being afraid of PVP, it isn’t exactly a fun experience. It’s also a pretty galling one, given the fact that this extra daily in completing their build and getting to PVP how they want is so unnecessary.

Iselin

esotoon wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

[PvPers don't really care much since getting rapids for us is still pretty easy

Don’t they? I don’t know about you, but most PVPers I know like having multiple characters. When they level a new alt, they generally grab rapids at lvl 10 and go power level their way to 50, grab all the skyshards, lorebooks, skill point quests, etc, and level the skills they need. It’s at that point they go PVP. In order to do that now, they have to spend potentially several hours PVPing on a level 10 character with a (possibly) slow horse, no rapids, and few skills. Whilst that might not phase them in terms of not being afraid of PVP, it isn’t exactly a fun experience. It’s also a pretty galling one, given the fact that this extra daily in completing their build and getting to PVP how they want is so unnecessary.

/shrug

Everyone does it differently. I level new PvP characters on the <50 campaign.

Jaraal

Iselin wrote: »

Everyone does it differently. I level new PvP characters on the <50 campaign.

And it's just as slow trotting around without Rapids in <50 as it is in >50.

Only difference is, you're more likely to be able to keep up with a slow enemy trotting away from you.

esotoon

Iselin wrote: »

Everyone does it differently. I level new PvP characters on the <50 campaign.

Fair enough. I can see why someone levelling in <50 wouldn't have as much as a problem with it.

Sarannah

You all seem to want this speed skill without doing anything for it. As I suggested a way to get it without PvP, and apparently that isn't good enough either?! Seems strange.
Also, horse training is relevant in this discussion as it is about mount speed.
Every other way to get speed has a small grind, or a downside to it: Ring of the wild hunt requires leveling excavation, and getting + excavating the right leads. Any speed boost set requires you to wear it, taking up spots for another full set you could wear. Mount feeding requires you to log in for 180 days and feed your horse.

So why should rapid manoeuvre be absolutely free? ... the rank 5 assault requirement isn't that bad. And I'm a PvE player who really dislikes PvP. And as I suggested, getting it automatically while mounted with 180 horse feeding could be a way to get rapid manoeuvre while avoiding PvP. To me this seems like the most fair compromise.

Another thing you guys seem to be complaining about, is how you seem to want rapid manoeuvre instantly after powerleveling a character to 50. Maybe not powerlevel?! Almost anyone who actually plays this game, does a daily BG and daily dungeon on their way to 50. Often even more than once. Slow down, there is no rush. This game is an MMO, expecting a small grind for powerful things is not strange. MMO's are meant to be played for longer time periods, getting things instantly is just not how MMO's work.

Theosis

Man, i was considering coming back from a long hiatus. Glad I went to the forums first. If they are making decisions like this I think Ill stay gone.

esotoon

Sarannah wrote: »

You all seem to want this speed skill without doing anything for it.

No one has asked that. Rapids was the first skill in it’s skill line for 6+ years. Just like every other skill line has a skill in that same first slot. They are not free either,

Every other way to get speed has a small grind, or a downside to it: Ring of the wild hunt requires leveling excavation, and getting + excavating the right leads. Any speed boost set requires you to wear it, taking up spots for another full set you could wear. Mount feeding requires you to log in for 180 days and feed your horse.

So why should rapid manoeuvre be absolutely free?

Once again you are comparing apples and oranges. Rapids is a skill, not a set or a perk. And no one wants it for free.

Another thing you guys seem to be complaining about, is how you seem to want rapid manoeuvre instantly after powerleveling a character to 50.

Not one person has asked for that either.

Maybe not powerlevel?!

Ah, so the way you play the game is the correct way, but the way others play it is wrong?

Almost anyone who actually plays this game, does a daily BG and daily dungeon on their way to 50. Often even more than once. Slow down, there is no rush. This game is an MMO, expecting a small grind for powerful things is not strange. MMO's are meant to be played for longer time periods, getting things instantly is just not how MMO's work.

ESO is one of the most popular MMOs of all time. ESO has had rapids in the first slot of the Assault skill line since before it launched. On top of this, off the top of my head, here are some other skills that are, or were, best in class skills that are available in that same first slot position (many also since before ESO launched): Lava Whip, Crystal Frags, Mages Fury, Rushed Ceremony, Frost Cloak, Uppercut, Snipe, Force Shock and Grand Healing. That list would suggest that you are incorrect in your assessment of how MMOs work.

I’m also confused as to how exactly Rapids is a ‘powerful’ skill. It is a useful utility skill, but powerful?

anitajoneb17_ESO

esotoon wrote: »

I’m also confused as to how exactly Rapids is a ‘powerful’ skill. It is a useful utility skill, but powerful?

Let's get things straight : I do not agree with the way this is being done and communicated about. We all can see that it's not been decided in balance with vigor, but as an incentive for buying boosters for the AP skill line.

THAT BEING SAID...

Rapids is a "universal" skill, extremely powerful (it makes you instantly move around quickly, as opposed to other ways of increasing speed, such as pots, riding lessons, gear sets). It's useful for every single character one may have, no matter their purpose (roleplay, combat, PvE, PvP, questing, mules and storage, etc.). And it's offered to everyone on a silver plate without any sort of effort at level 10. It often crossed my mind that this was very generous from ZOS and quite imbalanced with other very demanded skills that require quite a grind to get (vigor, meteor, caltrops, war horn, etc...) .

So while I disagree with ZOS taking away something we've enjoyed and gotten used to for 6+ years, I have to agree that the effort/reward ratio of rapids was surprisingly favourable to the player. I'm not the one you're asking the question to, but that's how I understand the use of "powerful" for describing this skill.

silvereyes

Sarannah wrote: »

You all seem to want this speed skill without doing anything for it. As I suggested a way to get it without PvP, and apparently that isn't good enough either?! Seems strange.

I don't think I actually saw anyone respond to your idea about unlocking Major Gallop automatically on fully-leveled mounts, let alone reject the idea as not good enough. Personally, I think it would be strange and unnecessary compared to other simpler options, but if ZOS wanted to do that, I wouldn't complain about it.

Sarannah wrote: »

Also, horse training is relevant in this discussion as it is about mount speed.

It's not that the speed from mount training is irrelevant. It's that relative strength of that buff to that of Major Gallop is not the issue at hand. The OP had no problem with those relative speeds. If you want to discuss the relative strength of Major Gallop and mount training, feel free to start a new thread.

Sarannah wrote: »

Every other way to get speed has a small grind, or a downside to it: Ring of the wild hunt requires leveling excavation, and getting + excavating the right leads. Any speed boost set requires you to wear it, taking up spots for another full set you could wear. Mount feeding requires you to log in for 180 days and feed your horse.

So why should rapid manoeuvre be absolutely free?
...
This game is an MMO, expecting a small grind for powerful things is not strange.

Again, you seem to be laboring under the impression that something that is very useful/powerful should take time and or effort to unlock. Whether that's true or not is subjective - personally, I have no problem with very useful things unlocking early. However, it is clear that the devs do not consistently share your view as a universal design goal. The entire excuse the devs have given for the Assault skill swap - unlocking Vigor early - indicates that their design goal is the exact opposite of your premise. They want a powerful stamina heal to unlock earlier with less effort.

There are certainly plenty of examples where time and effort are proportional to the usefulness of the reward in this game, but there are plenty of examples where they aren't. Some skills like spammables are more essential for the leveling process, or more essential for being able to fill a role, so it is good for them to unlock early.

My argument is that a fast mount has become so integral for the enjoyment of an exploration-focused game with huge maps that it belongs in that special category of things that should be unlocked early. Rapids was the "spammable" of exploration, leveling Mage's Guild, Skyshard hunting, mat farming, writs and Antiquities, and it has now been locked behind a grind for a skill line completely unrelated to any of those things.

Imagine what the response would be if all of a sudden every weapon and class skill line spammable were locked behind a grind for a seemingly unrelated skill line, and then ZOS simultaneously started selling leveling boosters for that theoretical unrelated skill line in the Crown store.

JoeCapricorn

But there are two primary alternatives that it seems a consensus is building around.

One is changing the requirements to unlock Rapid Maneuver to Assault 2 or 3. This would not touch Vigor in any way. This would make it easier to obtain Rapids (either by having it unlocked immediately, or earning about 7300 AP to do so), lowering the wall it is locked behind and making the process much less frustrating.

The other is swapping Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. Siege Shield would require Assault 5, but Rapid Maneuver would require Support 2. This wouldn't affect those who use Siege Shield because it is a skill almost exclusively used in PVP. Again, Vigor would not be touched.

There is also a growing amount of evidence that the change may have been implemented to create a small source of frustration for players, coaxing them to spend crowns on the Alliance skill upgrade, or in a later update to purchase consummables that will be available on the crown store (as well as crafted by players) that level up the Alliance skill lines faster. All of the evidence is circumstantial, but so far there hasn't been anything to definitively disprove this theory. If Rapid Maneuver is returned to being easy to get, or the wall to get it is lowered, then it renders the theory obsolete.

anitajoneb17_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

Again, you seem to be laboring under the impression that something that is very useful/powerful should take time and or effort to unlock. Whether that's true or not is subjective - personally, I have no problem with very useful things unlocking early.

Something useful / powerful / improving our feeling of "comfort" and "security" ingame is indeed something that should, in theory, be linked to some sort of grind, effort or achievement. It's the very basics of mimicking "progress" within any game.

I believe when they designed rapids they thought of it as something that would put all players ore or less equal in Cyrodiil for PvP purposes - the equivalent of the battle spirit buff for our characters. But everyone and their mothers used it in PvE too, for combat, for dungeons, for trials, for grinding, for farming, for exploring, and whatnot. Which makes it somewhat of a design abnormality (to the benefit of the player, but contrary to any progression logic).

silvereyes

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Again, you seem to be laboring under the impression that something that is very useful/powerful should take time and or effort to unlock. Whether that's true or not is subjective - personally, I have no problem with very useful things unlocking early.

Something useful / powerful / improving our feeling of "comfort" and "security" ingame is indeed something that should, in theory, be linked to some sort of grind, effort or achievement. It's the very basics of mimicking "progress" within any game.

I disagree, but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I did say that it's subjective, after all. To me, Major Gallop is just another buff. I don't think it needs to be exclusively locked behind a progression grind, any more than something like Major Brutality, which you can get from potions, class skills, sets, etc.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I believe when they designed rapids they thought of it as something that would put all players ore or less equal in Cyrodiil for PvP purposes - the equivalent of the battle spirit buff for our characters. But everyone and their mothers used it in PvE too, for combat, for dungeons, for trials, for grinding, for farming, for exploring, and whatnot. Which makes it somewhat of a design abnormality (to the benefit of the player, but contrary to any progression logic).

I don't disagree at all here. Tbh, neither Vigor nor Rapids really fits with a PvP-only skill line, but it's probably too much effort to try to move them at this point. They would both be better organized in a World skill line, but I don't think the "progression" for Soul Magic is really a good fit either, since it's linked to something that doesn't have anything to do with PvP or dungeons, trials, farming, etc.

Casul

If you want rapids do PvP. It's the same experience for every skill line, rapids should be no difference (honestly I think rank 1 should require a certain amount of AP to unlock.) I understand the displeasure of needing to do content you do not enjoy but plenty of people do content they don't enjoy for skills eg. Mages guild, psijic, undaunted. I don't think the first skill of assault and support should just be given for completing a tutorial.

SydneyGrey

Sarannah wrote: »

You all seem to want this speed skill without doing anything for it.

You seem to want this heal skill without doing anything for it.

There is ZERO reason why they can't make Rapids the first skill in the Fighter's Guild line, Soul Magic Line, or the Support tree in the Alliance War line, while keeping Vigor as the first skill in Assault. That would make everybody happy, but apparently ZOS doesn't want everybody to be happy.

(*Edited because I had to replace a wrong word after my SO distracted me from typing)

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

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esotoon

BuildMan wrote: »

If you want rapids do PvP. It's the same experience for every skill line, rapids should be no difference (honestly I think rank 1 should require a certain amount of AP to unlock.) I understand the displeasure of needing to do content you do not enjoy but plenty of people do content they don't enjoy for skills eg. Mages guild, psijic, undaunted. I don't think the first skill of assault and support should just be given for completing a tutorial.

Does the same go for every other skill that is first in each skill line, or does that only apply to rapids? If so, why is Rapids so special that it requires more work than some of the most powerful dps and healing skills in the game?

Jaraal

silvereyes wrote: »

My argument is that a fast mount has become so integral for the enjoyment of an exploration-focused game with huge maps that it belongs in that special category of things that should be unlocked early. Rapids was the "spammable" of exploration, leveling Mage's Guild, Skyshard hunting, mat farming, writs and Antiquities, and it has now been locked behind a grind for a skill line completely unrelated to any of those things.

And making things harder and take longer to do seems counterinuitive to keeping folks immersed a game, especially for new players.

I cannot imagine being a new level 10 player trying to do the Psijic questline on foot, yikes! I always waited until my alts got that invitation to Cyrodiil mail, then went right away to get Rapids before tackling any quests with extensive travel, including PvP.

And on a side note, Vigor won't be of much use to players perpetually out of stamina due to having to mash the sprint button to get around, either.

daim

How do people like under lvl50 cyrodiil campain these days ? It's really cool without rapids. No wonder it's pretty much dead, I wouldn't go there as a new (or old) player as it takes 30 mins to even get to a close-by keep.

Oh well.. guess you could get Cowards gear and run for it..

JoeCapricorn

When I did the Psijic questline on my main, it took me hours to do each step. However, I purposefully did those on foot - I was in no hurry to complete them, and I like gathering all of the mats along the way. I think I even got an Aetherial Dust out of it.

But if I do them on additional alts, I would want to do them much faster. It's like how I initially leveled characters by playing the main story, but now I gather skyshards and generally avoid quests (though sometimes I speed through the main story quests for the extra skillpoints)

silvereyes wrote: »

My argument is that a fast mount has become so integral for the enjoyment of an exploration-focused game with huge maps that it belongs in that special category of things that should be unlocked early. Rapids was the "spammable" of exploration, leveling Mage's Guild, Skyshard hunting, mat farming, writs and Antiquities, and it has now been locked behind a grind for a skill line completely unrelated to any of those things.

The best arguments are ones that are boiled down to something concise. This is essentially the heart of the matter, why the change aggravates me so much. Rapid Maneuver was used by so many players in a non PVP environment and now it is locked behind a PVP grind. The only way to avoid the PVP grind is to spend 3000 crowns in the crown store. I HATE that.

I still hope that ZOS listens to reason and makes it much easier to regain Rapids (or, preferably, enables it to be unlocked right away like it was before).

Again, I will say these until my fingers fall off, switching Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield is the best idea and makes the most sense. It will help the community move past this divisive issue, as it will not affect Vigor in any way, and Siege Shield is already an exclusively PVP skill so it won't affect users of that skill either. Doing this will also prove without a doubt that the initial change was not motivated by the desire to get people to spend crowns to regain something they lost without doing an hours long PVP grind that many people do not want to do for a variety of reasons that have been discussed to death in this thread.