Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

virtus753

Please be candid about who considers Vigor a “must-have for Stamina build survivability.” Not everyone does. Far from it, in fact. Some of us leveled 18 toons without using Vigor and didn’t miss it at all. But I took Rapids on every single toon as soon as I could. How, six years later, is Vigor suddenly so essential that a clearly artificial choice between it and Rapids had to be created, and Rapids had to be punted more than halfway down the skill line?

I understand this request is likely in vain, but I’ll ask it anyhow: please stop taking things away from your players and trying to support it with facile reasoning. It is making this player feel incredibly devalued, and based on the multiple threads and comments regarding how these situations are being created and handled, I’m not the only one.

allhailskippy

Ratinira wrote: »

You are happy with changes performing, but your players are not happy with that changes. That rises some questions...

And even despite having an official response. We're still left to speculate what those reasons might be.

It seems what is not being said is becoming clearer and clearer to read here.

rpa

a

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

You don't have to revert it, just make rapids to unlock at assault rank 3 instead of 5 and be done with it. Myself have survived just fine without Vigor with all of my chars, stam or mag so it obviously is not a must have for me. But rapids I used and found very useful with new chars and chasing those pesky dragons sooo faaaaaaar away from wayshines. I'll never buy any riding lessons or crates which drop em as junk anyway. (I might get ESO+ but I feel now is not the right time for it.)

JoeCapricorn

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

Hello, thank you for your response!

Vigor is certainly a useful QOL skill on its own merits and having it easily accessible is a good thing for sure. A complete reversal of the change would not make sense as it would defeat the purpose of making Vigor accessible in the first place.

However, a large number of players who don't like to PVP for a variety of reasons used Rapid Maneuver as a means to get around. Having it disappear from our skill bars was kind of a shock as not all of us saw this proposed change in the PTS. The higher requirements may not seem that significant, but it can be extraordinarily frustrating for a player who dislikes PVP to try and earn back Rapid Maneuver on upwards of 18 alts. There are players who only do PVE, crafting, farming and leveling characters. I am somewhat one of them, because when I do PVP it is only on my main Fen Wander, while my other characters are ones I just use for crafting or taking out on their own adventures to replay quests and content. The Flower of Youth is not a quest I just want to experience once, after all, as it is beautifully written. Furthermore, for players who are willing to take their alts into Cyrodiil, the PVP experience is significantly more frustrating because without Rapids it is slower to get to battles, keeps, resources and also more difficult to keep up with a raid group. I know from personal experience (by keeping Vigor or Caltrops on my bar in place of Rapids) that relying on group members to keep Rapids up isn't ideal, as sometimes it doesn't affect my player and sometimes I am just out of range so I fall behind. The guild I run with is typically good about people falling behind and finding a gathering point or letting them catch up but this may not be true of other groups or guilds that are more impatient. Battlegrounds is another means to earn AP to level up Alliance rank and it is one I considered on my alts, however most of them are not attuned to that kind of PVP and would be next to useless in each game. I would still get AP from losing a match but I may also get angry whispers from teammates or taunts from opponents that could amount to outright abuse. As someone who is sensitive to such things, I prefer to avoid that entirely due to anxiety.

Please consider some alternatives to the current status of Rapid Maneuver. None of these involve moving Vigor around:

Lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuver from Assault 5 to Assault 3 or even Assault 2. Assault 3 would mean some level of PVP would be necessary, however it would be a far quicker experience and it would be feasible to accomplish that just by taking an alt to a town and doing the daily quests there, largely avoiding interplayer conflict. Assault 5 may take about 3 to 5 hours or more and for a player that has 10 or 18 alts that is simply too much time spending in an activity that some consider unpleasant.

Swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This would put Rapid Maneuver in the Support column and require Support 2, and Siege Shield would go to Assault and require Assault 5. This would essentially be the "best of both worlds" solution, as both Rapids are available from the outset (making people like me happy) and Vigor is available (making stamina players happy). Siege Shield is almost exclusively a PVP skill, it is one I don't see outside of PVP very often (although one group of mine did consider it against the Wispmother in Aetherian Archive but found it to be less than effective). Due to this, it is much more likely to be unlocked by players who actually use it because they would already be participating in the activity it is used for. The negative impact on the playerbase is significantly reduced. Let me also say that this is my personal favorite alternative.

I have also heard people suggest putting Rapid Maneuver or Vigor in another skill-line entirely outside of the PVP skills. However, this would make things a bit weird. Assault would have 3 skills, but Fighter's Guild could have 5?

But please, at least consider one of the alternatives. At this point, I would even be happy with Rapids requiring Assault 3. It would lower the steep wall toward regaining Rapids for players such as myself that don't like to PVP and have alts that aren't tuned to PVP style gameplay.

Finedaible

I don't think the majority were even advocating for a straight reversal of the Rapids change but were suggesting a compromise instead. Many great suggestions out there on how to solve this problem for both devs and players alike and the option that gets picked is the Flip the bird emote. Seems to be a recurring theme this year.

Awesome, stamina characters now have the one and only reliable heal that has been constantly denied to them since the Alliance skill line existed, but in doing so also created problems for literally all new characters of BOTH Magicka and stamina specs. I'd hardly call that a "quality of life improvement", and while devs may be "happy with how this change is performing" - whatever performance is supposed to mean in this context - players clearly are divided on it.

Waffennacht

Does anyone remember how GOOD proxy Used to be??

Remember how [snip] long that took to get?



[edited for profanity]

Hurbster

No one wanted to revert the changes.

Everyone agreed that getting vigour early is a great idea.

No-one who objected agreed that just swapping it with Rapids was a good idea.

Many sensible alternatives were put forward and ignored.

Did I miss anything?

Ratinira

Hurbster wrote: »

Did I miss anything?

Yes. Zos are happy.

Hurbster

Ratinira wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

Did I miss anything?

Yes. Zos are happy.

So am I, now spending that money elsewhere. (shrugs)

manny254

Waffennacht wrote: »

Does anyone remember how GOOD proxy Used to be??

Remember how [snip] long that took to get?

Vigor used to be unlocked at AW skill level 10. This was also when most AP values were half what they are now.

Vetixio

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

More confirmation of the Elder Stamina Online lol, Stam healing has always seemed a bit nonsensical to me tbh. Most Stam characters self heals are better than Magicka ones, so what they get better damage, cheaper skills, better armor sets and better self heals seems legit 🙄

Obsidian3

[snip] Angering your customers and taking away skills they've had for 6 years is a great way to alienate your client base. Wow thanks for just outright not caring about our game experience. Way to make me feel valued after six and half years of continual subscription.

[edited for bashing]

Jaraal

So why have 20% of the ESO players on Steam bailed since Rapids was taken away? You'd think they would be playing more since they have easier access to a stamina heal, right?


https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Jaraal

And it's curious that not one person has asked to have these changes reverted, but it's important to tell us that the changes won't be reverted?

No one wants you guys to take Vigor away from the few who use it, like you took Rapids away from the many who use that. We just want Rapids swapped with Siege Shield or unlockable at a level that it previously was for years.

Rather than telling us why we need Vigor, please tell us why you don't want us to have Rapids.

SilverBride

Jaraal wrote: »

And it's curious that not one person has asked to have these changes reverted...

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this, please undo this change!

This was the original request in this thread, so of course they are going to address that. Thank you, ZOS_GinaBruno for your response.

Jaraal

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And it's curious that not one person has asked to have these changes reverted...

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this, please undo this change!

This was the original request in this thread, so of course they are going to address that. Thank you, ZOS_GinaBruno for your response.

Lol, he said:

"PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this (Rapids), please undo this change!"

He did not say:

"PLEASE do not require assault level 2 for Vigor, please undo this change!"


I'm not sure why you constantly try to derail this thread, but thank you for helping to keep it on the front page.

allhailskippy

removed by original poster to prevent further warnings.

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And it's curious that not one person has asked to have these changes reverted...

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this, please undo this change!

This was the original request in this thread, so of course they are going to address that. Thank you, ZOS_GinaBruno for your response.

You are totally misrepresenting everything said. Clearly no one asked to revert the changes and move Vigor back. This does not help an honest open discussing.

Try to bridge the conversation not derail or cloud the issue please.

oregonrob

About 500 posts ago I asked the developers to weigh in with their reasoning on why the change occurred and I applaud ZOS for doing so. It does add some clarification to the issue. However, while the developers may be happy with the change, it appears from the 900 plus postings here many if not most customers (players) are not. This should not be a zero sum approach, ie the developers have to take away something to give something. There have been a lot of good suggestions and compromises made here that allow a quality of life approach to be given to those that use Rapids that do not challenge the decision that was made for Vigor. Perhaps the developers might consider going back and reviewing some of those recommendations in order to come up with a quality of life solution for those who use Rapids like they did for those who use Vigor.

esotoon

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Thank you for your response. However, whilst everyone agrees that Stamina users need a heal at low level, it still doesn't answer some fundamental questions that have been asked about this change:

1) Why did this change need to penalise anyone? Why did you swap Vigor with a skill that is valuable to many, when it could have been swapped with Siege Shield, a skill that is rarely used in PVP and when it is, it is usually more experienced players that use it? Why was it swapped instead of just making Rapids available at rank 2 and Vigor, rank 3 or vice versa? Both of these changes (and other proposed) would have given low level players access to Vigor, without anyone's gaming experience being affected..

2) Rapids is an essential skill for PVP at low level, not just a 'convenient' skill. Not only is Cyrodiil huge, but players need it to keep up with their group, to escape gankers, and to get to Keeps, Outposts, and Resources quick enough to get to a fight happening or get a tick. It is not just a QoL matter. Why are the needs of some Stam players being put above the needs of the majority of all PVP players? Are the needs of PVP players considered less important?

3) You are right that players have been calling for a stam heal for a long time. However Vigor, being a HoT, is not a very good heal at low levels. It's healing output is low, and it is not the burst heal that players required. So why why have you given Stamina users a sub-optimal heal at low level, instead of the decent Stam heal they were after? And as an aside to this, after Morrowind was launched, it was stated that you were looking at changing the skill lines of all classes, to make them more like the Warden (and later the Necromancer), where they would have a DPSs line, a tank line and a heal line of skills. As part of this Stamina users would get the heals they had been requesting. What has changed? Why wasn't this implemented?


It would help your community a lot, if we could get some answers to these questions. As someone who has participated in many of these threads, I haven't seen anyone say that Stamina users shouldn't get a heal at low levels. We just want to understand why this change was made at the expense of a large portion of your player-base, when there were seemingly several better options available to you that wouldn't have penalised anyone.

Lord-Otto

Okay, so first of all, big thanks to Gina for providing much-needed insights!


Now, the answer we got isn't what many wanted to hear. Understandable. I'll just throw out a couple snippets of information and maybe someone can draw a conclusion for himself/herself from it.

- stamina builds have been overperforming in PvP for years (notable exception magsorc)
- stamina sets in general are better than magicka ones, PvE and PvP
- we are currently in a proc meta in PvP, with stamina sets above magicka ones
- magicka light attacks are being nerfed regardless of range next patch
- and with the Rapids situation, all builds are losing QoL to only give stamina builds a QoL improvement

Food for thought, isn't it?
(^_-)

Elvenheart

“Oh, the peasants want to move faster? Qu'ils mangent de la brioche!” 🎂

Lord-Otto

Elvenheart wrote: »

“Oh, the peasants want to move faster? Qu'ils mangent de la brioche!” 🎂

"Let them eat cake!"
For a more general audience.
(^_^)'

esotoon

Elvenheart wrote: »

“Oh, the peasants want to move faster? Qu'ils mangent de la brioche!” 🎂

Cake won't help, it only gives double XP not double AP.

mav1234

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

One potential option would be to work out a system to allow horse movement speed to carry over to new characters. As it stands, it is absolutely dreadful playing new characters because of horse speed.

karthrag_inak

Why not move the skill to first slot support?

marius_buys

Vigor as first but make Rapid the second unlock, new toons cannot move around in Cyrodiil without being left behind

Jaraal

These are all good ideas, and have been suggested many times since this change first appeared on the test server.

They want us to focus on Vigor, but it's clear to see that the primary motivation for this change is to make Rapids harder to get. The question is, why? That's the question they continue to avoid. Is it to slow players down to reduce server calculations? Or is it to monetize speed increases?

It's a simple question. Why do they wish to withold the answer from us?

Wolfster

Neither vigor nor rapids is essential IMO. I have access to both and use neither.

thebratqueen

Adding my voice to the many saying the Vigor vs Rapids dichotomy is a false one and I don't understand why Zos is insisting that it's the only way. Putting aside how every character can benefit from Rapids while only specific builds benefit from Vigor, why is it either/or? Slap Rapids into another skill tree and be done with it! It wouldn't be the first time skill trees have been entirely revamped (pun fully intended considering Greymoor's QOL changes) and it won't be the last.

You literally CAN make everyone happy here and I have no idea why Zos is refusing to try.