Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

But I also said I found a compromise that was presented to be reasonable. It would make more people happy and I could back that.

Thanks for your clarification.

So which of the many proposals put forward so far do you find reasonable, and if you don't find them reasonable, why not? (Not trying to put you on the spot, but so far no one has given a reason as to why any of the proposals wouldn't be a better solution.)

So just some examples:

1) Making Vigor unlock at Alliance rank 2 and Rapids at Alliance Rank 3.
2) Switching Siege Shield with Rapids, so that both Rapids and Vigor unlock at the same time.
3) Making Vigor part of a non-alliance war skill line. eg. Move Vigor to the first slot of Fighters Guild, put Rapids back where it was, and move Expert Hunter to the second skill of the Assualt line (given that it is more of a PVP related skill than Vigor is). .

allhailskippy

Sir_Aquillius wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to your own opinion but I am Going to be unpopular here Getting to Alliance Rank 5 is EASY Cany satisfy everyone .Go into a populated server, get a ap buff from killing a boss in a cyrodill delve then you hop allong with your slow horse or you can run and wait until a keep is attacked then you sit back with your lovely fire ballista's pressing E and clicking THE LEFT MOUSE BUTTON (don't steal sieges hehe) at the enemy real hard work and watch the ap get collected you don't even need to have a pvp build to do it its a piece of cake and rinse and repeat and the tip of the iceberg You get a FREE SKILL POINT for levelling up your alliance skill SEXY. Oh and dont forget to follow the damn quest at the beginning off cyrodill you know what i mean this WELCOME TO CYRODILL OMG Cheese for everyone ok

Once more for those in the back. Just because you think it is a) easy of b) fun to grind AP in any fashion does not mean it is this way for others. Please (collectively) stop offering this as a "solution" to the problem that is being discussed here. It is not.

Sevn

virtus753 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I wish you all the best, but I wouldn't say without justification, just justification you don't agree with, which is perfectly understandable.

The argument was years ago when stam users were begging for Vigor to be moved to the Undaunted skill line.

I learned long ago that beating my head against the wall expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity. I can not control what Zos does, but I am in control of my own actions.

Best of luck with your ongoing fight!

There can’t be justification when they haven’t offered a reason that Rapids specifically had to be made so much more difficult to get in the first place. It is a purely artificial consequence. There were plenty of alternatives — some offered very early on the PTS — that involved keeping Rapids as easy to get while still making Vigor easier too. They have only said that they felt Vigor needed to be moved up and assumed that the rest followed inevitably and logically, which it does not. So no, it can’t be said to have been justified when no actual reason for changing Rapids the specific way they did was ever given in the first place.

I assume they switched the two because it was the easiest option available to them seeing as all they had to do was move a few lines of code. I imagine having to completely move it to another skill line would require more effort. The same suggested alternatives were given years ago for Vigor and it only took them SIX years to finally do something smh.

Though I'm sure they'd never admit that, the way they won't acknowledge that balancing pve and pvp separately would be best but requires too much effort from them. Companies will always take the easier/cheapest method whenever possible and will only give true justification to the board members, the suits who actually make most decisions.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what they say though, if ones mind is already made up nothing but complete compliance from Zos will be satisfactory it seems.


The only quick fix is to revert the changes, something they have completely rejected. The only alternative is to move it somewhere else, but again if it was quick and easy that would have been done in the past with Vigor, imho.

Forgive my cynicism, already been through this fight years ago.

Ratinira

Sevn wrote: »

I assume they switched the two because it was the easiest option available to them seeing as all they had to do was move a few lines of code.

For some reason I think that changing the amount AP needed to unlock the skill won't make their coder overwork too...
If they wished to do that, of course. It is quite clear they don't...

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But I also said I found a compromise that was presented to be reasonable. It would make more people happy and I could back that.

Thanks for your clarification.

So which of the many proposals put forward so far do you find reasonable, and if you don't find them reasonable, why not? (Not trying to put you on the spot, but so far no one has given a reason as to why any of the proposals wouldn't be a better solution.)

So just some examples:

1) Making Vigor unlock at Alliance rank 2 and Rapids at Alliance Rank 3.
2) Switching Siege Shield with Rapids, so that both Rapids and Vigor unlock at the same time.
3) Making Vigor part of a non-alliance war skill line. eg. Move Vigor to the first slot of Fighters Guild, put Rapids back where it was, and move Expert Hunter to the second skill of the Assualt line (given that it is more of a PVP related skill than Vigor is). .

I feel that making Rapids unlock at Alliance Rank 3 or 4 would be the most reasonable, because it leaves all the other skills intact as they are.

But I also think any skill that is meant to be used for PvE shouldn't be in a PvP skill tree in the first place. And that any skill in a PvP tree should be tailored just for PvP. But that is a whole different can of worms I'd rather not get into.

silvereyes

Sevn wrote: »

The only quick fix is to revert the changes, something they have completely rejected. The only alternative is to move it somewhere else, but again if it was quick and easy that would have been done in the past with Vigor, imho.

Not necessarily. There are other alternatives, like manipulating the level at which each skill in the tree is granted. Rapids could be moved to level 3 or 4 pretty painlessly. Level 3 might be contentious, since it would unlock two Assault skills after just completing the tutorial. Level 4 still wouldn't please a lot of people, but it would at least show that ZOS is willing to meet people halfway.

Other alternatives that don't touch skills at all include:

• add a new craftable armor set that grants Major Gallop
• add a new potion that grants Major Gallop

Those aren't super quick fixes, but they are also not technically challenging for ZOS, who adds new armor and potions/ingredients all the time. They also help round out a glaring omission in the game, since Major Gallop is literally the only Major buff in the game that has a single source.

Jaraal

silvereyes wrote: »

Those aren't super quick fixes, but they are also not technically challenging for ZOS, who adds new armor and potions/ingredients all the time.

You mean like when they took stealth from Bosmer, then responded to the uproar by saying that they were looking into new avenues of stealth that would be available to everybody...... 2 and a half years ago?

silvereyes

Jaraal wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Those aren't super quick fixes, but they are also not technically challenging for ZOS, who adds new armor and potions/ingredients all the time.

You mean like when they took stealth from Bosmer, then responded to the uproar by saying that they were looking into new avenues of stealth that would be available to everybody...... 2 and a half years ago?

Heh. Don't even get me started on that. Still a bit bitter about it, lol.

I'm hoping against hope that with rumors indicating a potential Oblivion/Imperial/Cyrodiil theme for next year's Chapter, maybe adding some new sources of Major Gallop are a real possibility for Update 29.

Jaraal

silvereyes wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Those aren't super quick fixes, but they are also not technically challenging for ZOS, who adds new armor and potions/ingredients all the time.

You mean like when they took stealth from Bosmer, then responded to the uproar by saying that they were looking into new avenues of stealth that would be available to everybody...... 2 and a half years ago?

Heh. Don't even get me started on that. Still a bit bitter about it, lol.

I'm hoping against hope that with rumors indicating a potential Oblivion/Imperial/Cyrodiil theme for next year's Chapter, maybe adding some new sources of Major Gallop are a real possibility for Update 29.

Pretty big assumption to conclude that they actually want us to have easier access to Major Gallop. They have not said a word about that for or against.

Just the facts.

Luckylancer

Oxymoron of vigor at 5 was not PvEer go to PvP for skill. It was PvPers and PvEers have to play stam toon without The_Stam_Heal™

Oxymoron of rapids at 5 is you have to get to keeps to get AP so you can unlock skill that get you to keeps faster. But after you earn this skill you leave cyrodiil.

ZoS please make some sense and fix this illogical situations.

Zephiran23

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing some comments for Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation, as well as being off topic and some non-constructive back and forth between a few members, we would like to remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the Community Rules. Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation is a violation of the rules, and is stated as follows:

• Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation: We do not tolerate the deliberate and malicious spreading of false info or conspiracy theories about ZeniMax Online Studios, its game(s), or its employees. This does not include honest mistakes; rather, this rule pertains to those who go out of their way to spread harmful or malicious rumors about ZeniMax Online Studios and its employees, or The Elder Scrolls Online.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

If the company doesn't want conspiracy theories being developed as to the reasons behind this change, then greater transparency is required. As has been pointed out, Rapids has been in the game since release, as has Vigor.

What prompted the change now? Is it purely a coincidence that we will shortly be able to level PVP ranks faster? Do the developers feel that content was being completed too fast with most players able to access the skill at level 10? Are players completing too many world bosses and Harrowstorms per hour played? There are many complaints that overland content is too easy - how does providing another way to help characters stay alive address that situation? Why were other options, raised in this thread or internally, rejected?

Finally there is a quality of life factor here, also not addressed - once you have ridden at the maximum possible speed in the game, anything below that feels slow. Apart from the stamina loss prior to engaging in combat, sprinting everywhere feels better than riding a new mount. This has caused many to believe that this is to drive players to purchase riding skills from the crown store. While that may increase the games profitability, it does raise numerous ethical issues. Pay to Win in <50 Cyrodiil, exploiting many players FOMO and is this the right approach given the economic situation in most countries right now?

Sevn

Ratinira wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I assume they switched the two because it was the easiest option available to them seeing as all they had to do was move a few lines of code.

For some reason I think that changing the amount AP needed to unlock the skill won't make their coder overwork too...
If they wished to do that, of course. It is quite clear they don't...

silvereyes wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

The only quick fix is to revert the changes, something they have completely rejected. The only alternative is to move it somewhere else, but again if it was quick and easy that would have been done in the past with Vigor, imho.

Not necessarily. There are other alternatives, like manipulating the level at which each skill in the tree is granted. Rapids could be moved to level 3 or 4 pretty painlessly. Level 3 might be contentious, since it would unlock two Assault skills after just completing the tutorial. Level 4 still wouldn't please a lot of people, but it would at least show that ZOS is willing to meet people halfway.

Other alternatives that don't touch skills at all include:

• add a new craftable armor set that grants Major Gallop
• add a new potion that grants Major Gallop

Those aren't super quick fixes, but they are also not technically challenging for ZOS, who adds new armor and potions/ingredients all the time. They also help round out a glaring omission in the game, since Major Gallop is literally the only Major buff in the game that has a single source.

Again, every suggestion made now for rapids was made years ago for Vigor. Only took them 6 years to do something. I want to be clear, I'm not making excuses for Zos, I'm simply relaying my experience with this very same issue from years ago.

I'm no programmer, I'm just as lost why they haven't at least explained the difficulty of why it's taken 6 years and why they went this route instead of the many other suggestions that were given, both now and years ago.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

I feel that making Rapids unlock at Alliance Rank 3 or 4 would be the most reasonable, because it leaves all the other skills intact as they are.

So given:

a) There has been no reason given for the need to make Rapids harder to get, nor any reason that players have been able to come up with that makes any logical sense.

b) Whilst it might not be something that effects you personally, it is clear from this thread that this change has badly affected the playing experience of many players, to the point that some have quit over it.

C) There is a reasonable solution that would allow the Dev's wish of Vigor being available early on, and Rapids to also be available, so no player needs to have a worse gaming experiencing whilst achieving the same result.

Will you now be joining us in asking ZOS to implement this change?

silvereyes

Sevn wrote: »

Again, every suggestion made now for rapids was made years ago for Vigor. Only took them 6 years to do something. I want to be clear, I'm not making excuses for Zos, I'm simply relaying my experience with this very same issue from years ago.

Well, they already did do something for Vigor, over five years ago. Before Imperial City, you needed Assault level 10 to unlock it. They moved it to level 5, which was a pretty big improvement at the time.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2074057/#Comment_2074057

Ofc, back then, most PvE stam build also used Caltrops, so it wasn't as big of an improvement as it could have been.

Jaraal

Fact #1: Rapid Maneuver is now not available until Alliance Rank 5, when it had previously been available the moment you unlocked the Alliance War skill lines.

Fact #2: They are "happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it."

Fact #3: Every Alliance War skill, ultimate, and passive other than Vigor and Siege Shield is now more difficult to obtain without the 30% base speed buff of Rapid Maneuver and 40% morph speed buff of Charging Maneuver riding speed that has been available from the start to help reach Cyrodiil objectives on time since the beginning of the game.

Fact #4: There are now scrolls that can be purchased for Crowns available on the test server that boost Alliance War skill gain by 50%, 100%, and 150%.

Talwyn_Aureliano

The removal of Rapids from the first unlockable skill in the Assault tree has to be one of the biggest brain farts that the developers have had in the history of the game thus far.

I'd like to believe that there are some intelligent & knowledgeable people working on the game yet this decision beggars belief. Quite simply, as evidenced by this thread alone, the backlash against this is massive. Anyone with an ounce of awareness would have known immediately that if you take away something that people have had for ages then those people are going to get upset and angry. There was no justifiable reason for this change. None that I have seen that makes any sense at all. If the developers were concerned about Rapids then maybe this should have been done back in 2014/15? But no, it's been fine until now.

This change is detrimental to the entire player base. It punishes long term players who have multiple characters but don't necessarily play with them in PvP and inflicts unnecessary grinding on new players who want to participate in PvP but now are severely hampered by having slow mounts in Cyrodiil.

I can't be bothered anymore to grind it out on my other characters now because the PvP server issues such as stuttering, massive lag spikes, frozen loading screens etc etc just make it an exercise in futility & frustration.

I play ESO for enjoyment - being forced to grind in a substandard environment to get back a skill that was taken away with zero justification is not enjoyable at all.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Luckylancer wrote: »

Oxymoron of vigor at 5 was not PvEer go to PvP for skill. It was PvPers and PvEers have to play stam toon without The_Stam_Heal™

Oxymoron of rapids at 5 is you have to get to keeps to get AP so you can unlock skill that get you to keeps faster. But after you earn this skill you leave cyrodiil.

ZoS please make some sense and fix this illogical situations.

Theres a thing called groups. People are constantly LFGing in chat in PvP and its very likely in a 6 year old game that someone in that group has the Horse Crack. If you want to run around soloing PvP, thats fine, but you are not optimizing your AP gain by doing so. [snip] you cant get to the keeps to make the AP when you arent maximizing your chances of AP gain because of your choices.

[edited for bait]

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I feel that making Rapids unlock at Alliance Rank 3 or 4 would be the most reasonable, because it leaves all the other skills intact as they are.

So given:

a) There has been no reason given for the need to make Rapids harder to get, nor any reason that players have been able to come up with that makes any logical sense.

b) Whilst it might not be something that effects you personally, it is clear from this thread that this change has badly affected the playing experience of many players, to the point that some have quit over it.

C) There is a reasonable solution that would allow the Dev's wish of Vigor being available early on, and Rapids to also be available, so no player needs to have a worse gaming experiencing whilst achieving the same result.

Will you now be joining us in asking ZOS to implement this change?

a) I still don't think they have to give us a reason. If they choose to, fine, but they aren't required to.

b) I realize some players were upset over this, but I believe they were the minority.

c) A reasonable compromise has been suggested, and they may consider it if people discuss it instead of being accusatory.

I would back this change, but only because it has no drawbacks I can see and would make some people happier. Not because I think it's necessary for playing.

esotoon

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Theres a thing called groups. People are constantly LFGing in chat in PvP and its very likely in a 6 year old game that someone in that group has the Horse Crack. If you want to run around soloing PvP, thats fine, but you are not optimizing your AP gain by doing so. So you dont get to whine about how you cant get to the keeps to make the AP when you arent maximizing your chances of AP gain because of your choices.

You aren't guaranteed to get a group. It depends who else happens to be on in the campaign at the times you are on. Oftentimes there are no pug groups running. And if you do get a group, if you are on a low level horse, whilst you get rapids as the group runs off, after 30 seconds they are so far ahead you don't get the next cast of it. Even in a group, unless you are extremely lucky you are talking a minimum of 2-3 hour to get enough AP per character, which on 18 characters equates to a minimum of approx two days of your life.

And if you still think it easy, well then couldn't the same be said for Vigor? In which case the change still makes no sense, because it would be faster to get Vigor if you have Rapids first, than it is to get Rapids if you have Vigor first.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

I would back this change, but only because it has no drawbacks I can see and would make some people happier.

Glad we finally got there.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I would back this change, but only because it has no drawbacks I can see and would make some people happier.

Glad we finally got there.

You don't have to be so happy about it!

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

You don't have to be so happy about it!

I just witnessed a miracle on the Internet. Someone changing their stance on an issue. Of course I'm happy!

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

You don't have to be so happy about it!

I just witnessed a miracle on the Internet. Someone changing their stance on an issue. Of course I'm happy!

I didn't completely change it, but I do believe in compromise.

Elvenheart

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

You don't have to be so happy about it!

I just witnessed a miracle on the Internet. Someone changing their stance on an issue. Of course I'm happy!

I didn't completely change it, but I do believe in compromise.

Thank you 🙏😊🙏

linuxlady

Repid maneuvers was not done away with as the title seems to suggest it merely swapped places with vigor.

????



TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY !!!!!!!!!!!!

JoeCapricorn

A compromise would be welcomed for sure! I hope ZOS considers one.

I personally don't see why there needs to still be a requirement for Rapid Maneuver with it being in the second slot. Why can't it require Assault 2? This seems like the easiest compromise to perform, logistically, because it would involve changing a single variable.

That would mean there would be a situation where two skills were unlocked in the Assault skill line right off the bat. But that is better than taking a skill that many relied on for six years away and putting it behind an hours long PVP grind. Not everyone likes to PVP, thus the reason why this change was so infuriating for many.

Assault 3 for Rapid Maneuver would be less good, but the wall to overcome and regain Rapid Maneuver is much lower. Conversely, Vigor and Rapid Maneuver could be switched to their previous spots and Vigor is just lowered to Assault 3. But either way, the second skill would only need 7300 AP to unlock.

My personal favorite idea is switching Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. This has a bit more logistics, but Siege Shield would become the second skill of Assault, and even if it required Assault 5 it would not affect that many players. It is an almost exclusively PVP skill and those who need it will be working to earn it anyway. Rapid Maneuver is arguably a QOL skill that is used by both PVPers and non-PVPers alike and should never have been taken away. Having it as the first skill in Support would allow it to be accessible without any PVP, as it was before, and also have Vigor accessible without any PVP.

linuxlady wrote: »

Repid maneuvers was not done away with as the title seems to suggest it merely swapped places with vigor.

????



TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY TY !!!!!!!!!!!!

Except now for people who hate PVP and have no desire to participate in it because they feel it is toxic or anxiety inducing, Rapid Maneuver is inaccessible.

esotoon

linuxlady wrote: »

Repid maneuvers was not done away with as the title seems to suggest it merely swapped places with vigor.

Many people have (for potentially years) had Rapids as a skill on multiple of their characters and it was taken away from them by the recent change. So the Title is apt.

rpa

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

Elvenheart

rpa wrote: »

To repeat my suggestion: increase base mount speed by 30% remove major gallop and rapids and optionally replace it with some new skill relevant to pvp. Players would be happy and server hamsters would have one less buff to track.

You know, that’s really the best suggestion! It would definitely feel more realistic for your mount to be able to go faster than you can run right off the bat. We probably could never be so lucky, but I for one really like this suggestion 🐎

Zephiran23

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

Oxymoron of vigor at 5 was not PvEer go to PvP for skill. It was PvPers and PvEers have to play stam toon without The_Stam_Heal™

Oxymoron of rapids at 5 is you have to get to keeps to get AP so you can unlock skill that get you to keeps faster. But after you earn this skill you leave cyrodiil.

ZoS please make some sense and fix this illogical situations.

Theres a thing called groups. People are constantly LFGing in chat in PvP and its very likely in a 6 year old game that someone in that group has the Horse Crack. If you want to run around soloing PvP, thats fine, but you are not optimizing your AP gain by doing so. So you dont get to whine about how you cant get to the keeps to make the AP when you arent maximizing your chances of AP gain because of your choices.

There's also plenty of times when no one is running groups, or at least there's no reponse. So you have to decide, am I going to do something I enjoy at peak times or devote this evening or several to doing something this character isn't built for?