Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

dazee

esotoon wrote: »

Quick question for you. Why do you have so much faith in ZOS' ability to monitor their player's needs, when they have just admitted to you that it has taken them over 6 years to give their players easy access to Vigor, a skill which they consider "a must-have for Stamina build survivability"?

it isn't a must have, it's a must have on stam builds which lack a class stam heal or 2h weapon line. Still, the game must account for all playstyles, so it is good that it's made easier to get, but I agree with moving it to soul magic.

I can imagine a couple possibilities for a pvp replacement skill.

Sylvermynx

Hmm. I hadn't paid much attention.... but yeah, my stam builds all seem to gravitate to 2H.

In any case, I do think this entire thing was mishandled in a very egregious manner.

Ratinira

dazee wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

Quick question for you. Why do you have so much faith in ZOS' ability to monitor their player's needs, when they have just admitted to you that it has taken them over 6 years to give their players easy access to Vigor, a skill which they consider "a must-have for Stamina build survivability"?

it isn't a must have, it's a must have on stam builds which lack a class stam heal or 2h weapon line. Still, the game must account for all playstyles, so it is good that it's made easier to get, but I agree with moving it to soul magic.

I can imagine a couple possibilities for a pvp replacement skill.

No one is arguing that it is a must-have skill for some small group of players.
Just zos used that skill as a shield to steal another skill from us. And as a shield to defend that changes.
I don't care about vigor. I never use it on my stamcro, stamden, stamsorc or stamplar.
I want back the skill that has nothing to do with Vigor.

This topic is not about Vigor.
The same as zos'es change...

Nomadic_Atmoran

Sgrug wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

forthwinds wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

How can you be happy with how the change is performing when the community has clearly let you know they are not happy with it? Sounds like you guys are out of touch with what the community wants, shocker...

A dozen or so posters on a single forum post is now speaking on behalf of what the community wants?

First I reject the premise only a few are posting about this in support of Rapids and to say otherwise is to ignore the evidence in the posts. Count the number of people supporting this then say that again, easily proved or disproved how many have posted supporting Rapids.

Even so there are even fewer posting in support of this change and the need for Vigor so what does that say?

I've already pointed out in this very thread that this topic is centralized here in this thread and not anywhere else. Not through out the forums, not on facebook, not on twitter, not on reddit. So many places this topic would likely pop up if this was something being experienced by anything but a very vocal but niche minority. The alt-aholic minority. The arrogance of thinking that you somehow speak for the majority or even a sizeable minority of ESO players is laughable. I dont care what you reject. This is not a problem for the masses. It is not a problem for your average player.

This change was to better assist PvP Players. The ones this very skilltree was meant for. And in extension anyone using Vigor in their build. And since ZOS has the metadata to support their decisions on making this change. I think Im going to side with them over someone upset they cant harvest nodes and turn in multiple accounts worth of crafting writs faster.

Ratinira

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

And since ZOS has the metadata to support their decisions on making this change. I think Im going to side with them over someone upset they cant harvest nodes and turn in multiple accounts worth of crafting writs faster.

Of course they have their metadata.
And it took them 6 years to use it. XD
And to change 2 skills instead of one.
And when people are asking to return them second skill they say "but we gave you the first one! We won't return you second skill because we gave you the first one. We created an artificial choice between first and second, anyone who is for second skill is against first one! There is no connection between that two skills, but anyone who wants their second skill back is fighting against first skill!

You may say as much as you want that people here are minority. People who cannot make a step without vigor are minority too. They sacrificed one minority for money and make other minority as a shield. And are deaf and blind to any suggestions for change that sutisfy both. Because that is not their goal.
They definitely get the metadata. About your wallet. How you heal yourself is the last thing they are interresting in.

I presume Pvp-ers who now complain that it is much harder to move around Cyro should be more grateful too. They can run using vigor now XD

esotoon

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

This change was to better assist PvP Players. The ones this very skilltree was meant for.

(Ignoring the fact that the developers have stated this change was to help PVE players, not PVP players... )

How does it help PVP players? Anyone on a low level Stam character in PVP won't find Vigor that helpful because it is a HoT. So it's not really helping them, especially as they will be struggling even more to get to fights/Keeps before the fight is over as a result. And anyone on a high level Stam character a) has other stam heals available to them and b) will be wanting to get both Rapids and Vigor (both of which are needed for PVP) anyway, in which case it would be much quicker for them to get both if they had Rapids first, rather than having Vigor first.

Meanwhile, all PVP Magicka users are having and extra slog to get Rapids for no reason.

So who exactly is it helping?

Nicole94

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

Well I said even a bad answer would have been better than ignoring us, and you have provided a bad answer, so thanks for that.
I would have expected that you guys could have taken 5 minutes to at least see what this thread was about.
So I will clarify to you again. You don't have to respond, you gave your answer. At least after reading my explanation of what this thread was about, you will know exactly how I feel about your answer.

First lets cover what this thread WAS NOT about.
This thread was NOT about how to gain AP. It wasn't about wanting the changes reverted. And it was never, EVER intended to become a flame war between pvp vs pve, Stamina vs Magicka, was NEVER, EVER a debate on class heals reworking entire skill sets [snip]

This thread was asking for rapids back. Before the change Rapids was Rank 2, Vigor, rank 5, after the patch Vigor is Rank 3, Rapids Rank 5.
Some have asked for Rapids to move to a totally different tree, that is a lot more work, I know. I asked Why can rapids not be put back at rank 2, vigor 3 BOTH unlocking after the tutorial? Is that reverting the changes? [snip] Furthermore, when this change came to PTS numerous people complained about it, said it was a bad idea, it was ignored. For new players this will hit hard when they are trying to get their Alliance War rank leveled. And if you don't think people will complain in the >50 Cyrodiil zone chat about missing the ticks because they are moving SO much slower than experienced players like me, well you haven't been in our zone chats.

[snip] I am an experienced player. I had more than enough AP sitting in my bank to purchase the repair kits to get my little ones their Rapids back. It was a temporary inconvenience to me, because I enjoy PvP, but if you guys don't think this will GREATLY impact new players in Cyrodiil you are very mistaken.

So, Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to at least provide an answer, even if it has nothing to do with what we have asked.

[edited for baiting]

CipherNine

vigor is so vital that it took them 6yrs to change. hmm right before they put mount training on sale. they also just want to sell more alliance skill line unlocks. we also cant forget about that 2 person mount coming out.

Then of course we get the canned bs response of "we have read looked at your feedback and are aware of your concerns" yeah sure you are. This was all a stunt to monetize on rapids. If it was really about making vigor easier to get then you could have swapped it with siege shield. which makes much more sense. Rapids never needed to be touched. but we know why you really did it.

oh well another ESO+ sub cancelled. one less monthly payment to worry about.

aeowulf

If Vigor is considered a must have skill for stamina builds, why is it pvp locked?

Should any must have skill be pvp locked? Would it not be better to move it to fighters guild?

My first toon 6 years ago, with minuscule dps, levelled as a stamina build, it was painful but certainly not a must have, not even back then.

Nairinhe

Jaraal wrote: »

So why have 20% of the ESO players on Steam bailed since Rapids was taken away? You'd think they would be playing more since they have easier access to a stamina heal, right?


https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

There's almost always drop in September. Because schools start, I guess? Also it looks more like part of returning to the usual trend after big raise in April (probably because of covid).
I have a feeling that 90% of players are very casual and don't really care about rapids and not much about vigor either.

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings!

Given their baiting nature, we have removed some posts from this thread. We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we ask that they be shared in a respectful and constructive manner. This goes for abusive and disruptive comments and behavior that are directed at a ZeniMax Online employee and ESO community member, alike. Please help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

Calypso589

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

6 years and now you all of a sudden you decide Stam need access to an earlier heal? NOW you consider Vigor a “must have?” O.0

Riiiiiight....

[snip]

I would genuinely respect companies more if they were up front about it.

But please don’t treat us like we’re stupid.

[edited for conspiracy theory]

Varana

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

This is an extraordinarily disappointing statement.
Not because of the decision taken. We're used to that.
As others have pointed out, in this thread and elsewhere, swapping Vigor back was not the goal. Multiple alternatives have been brought forward.
This post doesn't address any of this. It is a prime example of strawmanning - arguing against a made-up position, ignoring the actual discussion.
Or, as Ratinira pointed out, it creates a false alternative (Vigor OR Rapids) and puts players against each other that don't have to be on opposite sides - because the alternative is artificially created. But it's effective.
Again, very disappointing.

harvey07

basically: "we did this....because we wanted to and we think it is what is best for you all. get over it." guess this pill is just getting shoved down our throat ..whether we want it or not. "it is what is best for us". lol

i stopped playing alts all together...barely even logging in to them to get writs, mount training or hireling mails.

a bitter pill is a bitter pill. i will get over it eventually but their response to this issue just makes me not want to play or give them any more of my money.

PizzaCat82

Why not just get rid of rapids and make the max 30% faster?

allhailskippy

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Why not just get rid of rapids and make the max 30% faster?

This would not fix the issue with low level characters still moving extremely slow.

Elvenheart

It’s funny how comfortable and how satisfied I have been with this six+ year old game as new games have come out over the years. I never gave them a look because I have so much fun in ESO working on my existing characters, creating new ones from time to time, and playing through the new content when it comes out. I’ve always been subscribed to ESO+ since it makes playing easier. I’ve always bought crowns whenever they are on sale. Occasionally I’ve been tempted by crown crates.

It’s also funny how that ONE THING can cause a loyal money-paying customer to consider other options. In this case, the one thing is not so much the raising of Rapids to level 5 after six years, although that’s part of it. It’s the fact that no matter how upset this has made players ZOS doesn’t seem to be considering other options and won’t even say why they won’t lower the requirement to get it to 3 or 4 as some have suggested. I’m happy that Vigor is now easier for people who need it, but that really seems to have nothing to do with why Rapids has to be harder to get. Other posters have said that much better than me.

This weekend I started a new character and used it for dailies in Western Skyrim. People would call out harrowstorms, and invite other players to groups for world bosses, and I missed reaching the events a lot of the times. Rapids would have been very helpful to have in those instances.

It’s “funny” that making Rapids level 5 is considered a QoL change. I get why making Vigor level 2 is a QoL change for the good. But the one question that the Powers That Be won’t answer is why Rapids has to be level 5.

Elvenheart

I’m afraid I have to edit my posts a lot too. No matter how many times I proof them before hitting “Post Reply” as soon as they are posted and I reread them I usually notice I’ve left out a word here or misspelled a word there. You’ll notice that most of the posts I’ve had to edit were edited a few short minutes after posting them because of this.

daim

Today I planned to farm upto level 5 and get rapids for an alt.

What really happened was that I stared my screen for a while and logged off.

esotoon

Sergykid wrote: »

sorry i did not mean personal edits for grammar and forgotten ideas and such.
i mean most of those are edited by the forum manager for baiting, bashing, etc

Ah, understood. Thanks for clarifying.

Linaleah

Sergykid wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

my faith is not in ZOS, they are a company and they want money, the game satisfaction is not their primary interest. I do not like this but i have no choice to play something else, i await for the MMO that launches next year.

Thanks for answering my question. I hope that mmo turns out to be a better alternative.

the thing is that i don't have faith in forum people. Just look at all the agrees and awesomes people have, most of them are "edited", this says something. And everyone hops in the train just because they want to be part of the majority, not seeing the bigger picture. Lots of self entitled virtuality desperates ... to call them easy to not get my comment edited too.

As someone who edits their posts a lot, it's disappointing to hear that this is seen as a negative by some and somehow makes my posts suspicious. In my case it's due to my spelling and grammar being atrocious and wanting to make my posts more readable.

sorry i did not mean personal edits for grammar and forgotten ideas and such.
i mean most of those are edited by the forum manager for baiting, bashing, etc

having read at least some of those posts prior and having had my own posts edited here and there.... the rules for forum posting can get pretty strict. and you can still see the gist of the posts after editing. also, consider that its possible that people liked those posts AFTER they were moderated. I mean, I know I have. One of the reason people keep posting on these forums is BECAUSE they are closely monitored so we can be reasonably sure that our concerns are seen and seen quickly.

P.S. I wouldn't say most. some for sure.

DarcyMardin

I believe one of the devs’ defenses (Rich, I think) during the uproar over the change to Maelstrom weapons was, “You’re not losing anything.”

Well, in this case, that defense won’t fly. We *are* losing Rapids, a skill some of us loyal customers have been using since closed beta. It’s a pretty low blow that, according to Gina’s comment, they are now happy about the change they have made. Because a great many of us are *not* happy at all.

silvereyes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient.... We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

Well, since stating the obvious about this quote earlier seems to be a conspiracy theory, I'll just reference another quote that I think seems pertinent.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

PTS Patch Notes v1.6
Crown Store

• The Crown Store will sell customization and convenience items. You can use the items in the store to save some time

joerginger

Oh well, so they found out that their most recent monetization move has paid off wonderfully and thus ZOS are very happy with the performance of their . Obviously most affluent people still playing this game very happily buy the crowns to get the assault skill line or the riding lessons for their alts. Unfortunately the handful of people like me who cancelled their subscription on one account and won't renew their subscription on another account is a number that's completely insignificant in comparison with the number of people who desperately want to pay more and more for less and less.
The change made me lose Rapids on all but two of my 20 characters (one "full" account on EU, an NA character and another EU character on a different account.) It feels like ages since the horrible change took place, but so far I have only managed to get Rapids back on eight of my characters. After all this grind, I am not confident at all that I will even try to get Rapids back on all the other characters, it would be just way too annoying and time consuming.
The change and the aftermath with its utterly horrible recent conclusion, i.e. ZOS being absolutely happy with their player-hating change and unwilling to change things to any of the plenty suggested better solutions to a non-exsting problem, taught me that ZOS not only cannot be trusted at all whatever any of their representatives is forced to say, but that they passionately hate their players who spent many hundreds of dollars on their poorly designed and optimized software. They don't just want our money, they want all of it and more. Well, I'll just conclude this message with the reminder that you already got a lot of my money, but you'll certainly not get any more of it unless things finally start changing for the better - of players, not your accountants!

Wytch

ZOS_RachelM wrote: »

Greetings!

Given their baiting nature, we have removed some posts from this thread. We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we ask that they be shared in a respectful and constructive manner. This goes for abusive and disruptive comments and behavior that are directed at a ZeniMax Online employee and ESO community member, alike. Please help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

Just a simple suggestion here. That's all, a very basic, calmly stated, rational suggestion.

You (as in the company, I don't single out people other than quoting or replying) might want to update that code of conduct. See, it seems to either be too vague or is missing some elements.

I (and others) have been "snipped" for all of the following reasons that don't seem to be covered.

1: Having an opinion
2: Listing evidence to prove a point
3: Making rational arguments for or against something
4: Giving examples of alternative solutions
5: Sarcasm

For the record, I don't deny that there have been a few things I have typed out in anger that deserved removal or snipping. I have even apologized for that on this very thread. It was even that apology that resulted in my being contacted for an interview and possible writing gig.

Don't worry, I won't be linking the article here when it's published. You've already taught me how to fear you.

But my point is, how can rational arguements, evidence, or examples, be described as baiting? There are a lot of people that have given evidence of wrongdoing and listed many possible alternatives here that would make all the players (that spend a lot of money in this game) happy without upsetting anyone.

Now, I will admit, opinions are open to interpretation so I can see how some of those might have been misinterpreted, but you gotta give us more leeway on the sarcasm. Sarcasm is a way for us to blow off some steam without directing our ire at any one in particular. It lets us express out great displeasure creatively and more importantly, vaguely.

There are a lot of us that are greatly displeased over how we've been stabbed in the back. You need to let us cuss up a storm or be creatively sarcastic about it.

And before you try to snip me for saying that I feel as tho I have been stabbed in the back over this... try to really read what we have been saying in this thread. We had Rapids for 6 years and then it got stolen away from us and put behind 2 options, a paywall, or content that we hate so much it makes some of us physically ill to play it for more than 3 minutes. Saying that I feel stabbed in the back over this is not baiting, it's the simple fact of how the company has made me feel and why the company will most likely never get another cent of my money.

I'll continue to watch this thread carefully, and not just for my own interest.

The now usual DISCLAIMER: This post is expressing my opinions and feelings. It in no way bashes or baits. The usual bit about saving a copy to prove this post existed etc etc ad infinitem. 10.01.2020 21:43

Noggin_the_Nog

[/quote]Nomadic_Atmoran......This change was to better assist PvP Players. . [/quote]

There are about 600 players in the under level 50 campaign - Icereach. Most will be under alliance rank 5 - that comes in about level 35 to 40. Most of these players will not have rapids. They will be slow. They cannot follow groups, they cannot get to keeps in time for defense or attack, and therefore will wonder why bother with PvP.

We really ought to be encouraging new players in PvP - not making it more difficult for them.

It seems you play in the over level 50 campaigns. Do you not care about new players in Icereach?

JoeCapricorn

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote:

Wie sehr uns das Thema beschäftigt hat und wie ernst wir es nehmen, kann man bei näherem Hingucken auch daran erkennen, dass über einen Monat analysiert und diskutiert wurde, um erst dann eine offizielle Antwort von oben zu erhalten. (Daran zu erkennen, dass es - wie hier kritisiert - Marketingsprech ist und zeitgleich auch von Gina auf Englisch gepostet wurde).

Wäre uns das Thema egal, hätten wir auch einen Tag nach dem Patch "Das ist jetzt so und damit basta" posten können.

Translation from Google: "How much the topic has preoccupied us and how seriously we take it can be seen on closer inspection from the fact that it was analyzed and discussed for over a month and only then received an official answer from above. (This can be seen from the fact that - as criticized here - it is marketing speech and was also posted in English by Gina at the same time).

If we didn't care about the topic, we would have been able to post "That's now and that's that" the day after the patch."

I find this particular post interesting because Kai points out the fact that this issue is still being discussed well over a month later. The statement by Gina was posted in German by JensR and used almost the identical type of marketing language. Very likely that Gina is just the messenger on this - that does not mean we necessarily have to accept it without protest though.

Perhaps it is the case that this change was to encourage people to spend crowns on the Alliance skill lines. This isn't quite "pay to win" and other games (such as Elder Scrolls: Blades) does far far worse, but the limited amount of insight us players have into why this decision was made and why the alternatives (like swapping Rapids with Siege Shield) have been so willfully ignored or dismissed will lead us to jump to that kind of conclusion. The new consumables, while not confirmed to having a crown store equivalent, may only strengthen that conclusion if they did. I only have enough crowns to do that on one alt, I don't have enough time or desire to PVP grind it on any of them, I don't have enough money to spend on more crowns outside of a subscription, and I have decided that my subscription will not renew in 82 days partially because of the change to Rapids and partly because I don't even know where my life will be in December.

But please... consider: SWAP RAPIDS WITH SIEGE SHIELD

I think that is the best possible solution to all of this. It would make everyone happy. I would restore my subscription for a full year, all of 2021, immediately.

DarknessShallFall

They should move rapids to assist skill line and move flares to assault since it can be considered assault. I dont use vigor at all, but I used rapids all the time, I really want it back since I dont friggin PVP at all.

kamimark

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

Well, I'm happy that you're happy with dungeon completion stats, but for everyone doing overland content, like antiquities, it's an absolute disaster for "quality of life".

There's no reason you can't have both Rapids and Vigor unlock earlier than rank 5, and then you don't have 80% of the players angry because we have to grind PVP content which we loathe.

JoeCapricorn

DarknessShallFall wrote: »

They should move rapids to assist skill line and move flares to assault since it can be considered assault. I dont use vigor at all, but I used rapids all the time, I really want it back since I dont friggin PVP at all.

So what you are suggesting is something like this?

Assault:

Vigor
Caltrops
Magicka Detonation
Revealing Flare

Support:

Rapid Maneuver
Siege Shield
Purge
Guard

I can see how that could work, but it might make Guard harder to get (Revealing Flare requires Support 7 right now, Guard would require 7 as well), going from Support 5 to 7, Purge would be at 5, Siege Shield at 4 and Rapid Maneuver at 2. However, it also makes the other Assault skills easier to get. Revealing Flare might be at the last spot on Assault. Magicka Detonation now only requires 6, Caltrops requires 5 and Vigor of course requires 2. - this is a lot more complicated than just swapping Rapids with Siege Shields.

So it would be like this:

Assault:
Vigor
Siege Shield
Caltrops
Magicka Detonation

Support
Rapid Maneuver
Purge
Guard
Revealing Flare

This idea involves far less shuffling of the skills and skill requirements. Purge, Guard, Revealing Flare, Magicka Detonation and Caltrops are untouched. Vigor remains Assault 2. Siege Shield requires Assault 5. Rapid Manuever requires Support 2.

This is the idea that makes the most sense if the intent was to keep the players happy and also allow for easy access to Vigor. It is not too late to implement this idea and honestly this is the one I am clinging to. So now my tagline is "Please swap Rapids with Siege Shield!"