Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Kwoung

BTW, with Vigor you can solo resources for AP, something having rapids doesn't help with.

JoeCapricorn

SilverBride wrote: »

Noggin_the_Nog wrote: »

Without rapids I just can not play in PvP - Icereach. All I can do is wait in keeps or outposts, hoping they will be attacked.

If you group for PvP, which I assume is usually the case, you would still benefit from someone else in the group using rapids since it's a group skill.

If you are able to keep up the entire time, but if you are just a few meters away from another group member it won't hit you and you wind up falling behind.

This is also Icereach we are talking about. Many group members won't have rapids either.

Iarao wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I've been giving it some thought.

It really wouldn't hurt anyone for them to lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver. Just lower the requirements. Not everyone likes PVP, some people prefer not to PVP entirely. LET THEM. How about lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuver so that the people who hated PVP can get their Rapids back? Hmm?

There is no reason NOT to lower the requirements. I can't think of any. Or swap Rapids with Siege Shield. Everyone would be happy.

think crown store sales.

Yeah, unfortunately you are most likely right.

warabi

Kwoung wrote: »

warabi wrote: »

I think the problem with you two and those who share your views is that you don't really care to look at it from a different perspective. Why even come in here and tell us we're wrong for wanting rapid changed? You just don't want it to go back at all? Why is that, then? If you don't care about the change, why are you in here telling us to get over it?

Nope, not it at all, I completely looked at the situation from different perspectives, which is why I helped my guild members earn it back in as painless a way as possible. Games change, I have been playing MMO's for over 20 years now, not a single one of them stayed the same, not one. Requirements for gear changes, skills change, everything changes as they add new things and attempt to re-balance them, its how this genre works. Whatever ZOS's reasons were for this change, good or bad, the change happened. Adapt, complaining never got anything changed back in any of those other games either, so you go with the flow. IMHO, it isn't even a PVP skill, on one of my alts I just soloed resources (a PVE activity) and earned it back without ever seeing another player or engaging in any PVP at all.

I have also been playing MMOs for quite a long time and something I've learned from them is that when devs take away things from players they often feel cheated, especially when it's an ill conceived notion from the get go. It is true that you can't please everyone, but there are decisions like this that are simply universally bad for the player base.

You keep reiterating the fact that you can just grab guild mates and go to Cyro like it isn't a big deal, so no, you aren't looking at the situation differently at all. It's pretty cool you want to get groups together and have guild mates you can do that with. That's what you like to do and that's fine. Not everyone is you. Not everyone wants to gather up a group of people on every single alt. Not everyone has a guild to begin with. Not everyone is willing and happy to participate in pvp. If you have to go a zone solely dedicated pvp to gain a skill, then yes, it IS a pvp skill. If it were otherwise there'd be a way to get Assault/Support skills outside of pvp entirely.

Kwoung wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Does that advice encompass PvPing? Then it's not actually useful advice.

BTW, warabi had some good remarks for you as well.

Actually no, it doesn't encompass PVPing, it encompasses going to Cyrodill and doing PVE, the same thing everyone complaining does in ever other zone in the game sans IC. You do realize there are campaigns that are mostly empty 90% of the time, and if you are with 5 guildies you can heavy attack down pretty much any 1vXer by simply holding down your left mouse button with a lightning staff? It totally melts them, as they are not built to withstand heavy attacks, just think of them as a boss mob and you are all set!

I think statement alone shows just how very biased you are. I've gone into Cyro plenty of times to get achievements and do the quests. Sometimes I got ganked, sometimes I got killed by a group of people, sometimes I made out just fine. The fact is any of that can happen and to people who do not want to deal with pvp at all, it's miserable.

Anyway, you answered my questions in a round about fashion. You just think we should get over it and have no real vested interest in this topic either way. Why are you even in here arguing about it and telling us to just deal with it, exactly?

Elvenheart

warabi wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

warabi wrote: »

I think the problem with you two and those who share your views is that you don't really care to look at it from a different perspective. Why even come in here and tell us we're wrong for wanting rapid changed? You just don't want it to go back at all? Why is that, then? If you don't care about the change, why are you in here telling us to get over it?

Nope, not it at all, I completely looked at the situation from different perspectives, which is why I helped my guild members earn it back in as painless a way as possible. Games change, I have been playing MMO's for over 20 years now, not a single one of them stayed the same, not one. Requirements for gear changes, skills change, everything changes as they add new things and attempt to re-balance them, its how this genre works. Whatever ZOS's reasons were for this change, good or bad, the change happened. Adapt, complaining never got anything changed back in any of those other games either, so you go with the flow. IMHO, it isn't even a PVP skill, on one of my alts I just soloed resources (a PVE activity) and earned it back without ever seeing another player or engaging in any PVP at all.

I have also been playing MMOs for quite a long time and something I've learned from them is that when devs take away things from players they often feel cheated, especially when it's an ill conceived notion from the get go. It is true that you can't please everyone, but there are decisions like this that are simply universally bad for the player base.

You keep reiterating the fact that you can just grab guild mates and go to Cyro like it isn't a big deal, so no, you aren't looking at the situation differently at all. It's pretty cool you want to get groups together and have guild mates you can do that with. That's what you like to do and that's fine. Not everyone is you. Not everyone wants to gather up a group of people on every single alt. Not everyone has a guild to begin with. Not everyone is willing and happy to participate in pvp. If you have to go a zone solely dedicated pvp to gain a skill, then yes, it IS a pvp skill. If it were otherwise there'd be a way to get Assault/Support skills outside of pvp entirely.

Kwoung wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Does that advice encompass PvPing? Then it's not actually useful advice.

BTW, warabi had some good remarks for you as well.

Actually no, it doesn't encompass PVPing, it encompasses going to Cyrodill and doing PVE, the same thing everyone complaining does in ever other zone in the game sans IC. You do realize there are campaigns that are mostly empty 90% of the time, and if you are with 5 guildies you can heavy attack down pretty much any 1vXer by simply holding down your left mouse button with a lightning staff? It totally melts them, as they are not built to withstand heavy attacks, just think of them as a boss mob and you are all set!

I think statement alone shows just how very biased you are. I've gone into Cyro plenty of times to get achievements and do the quests. Sometimes I got ganked, sometimes I got killed by a group of people, sometimes I made out just fine. The fact is any of that can happen and to people who do not want to deal with pvp at all, it's miserable.

Anyway, you answered my questions in a round about fashion. You just think we should get over it and have no real vested interest in this topic either way. Why are you even in here arguing about it and telling us to just deal with it, exactly?

Good question! I’ve wondered the same thing in posts several times throughout this thread. We’ve been accused of wanting ZOS to put Vigor back up to Rank 5 (we don’t), we’ve been called liars by saying that we consider Rapids, for US, to be essential to our enjoyment of the game (FOR US, not for anyone else, WE feel it is essential so FOR US, it is essential no matter whether it is or is not essential to someone else)... I mean, how many times have we been told that Rapids isn’t essential? If I say a skill is essential for me to enjoy an aspect of the game, it is FOR ME. Maybe the words “for me” were missing in some of those statements that have been made by people who feel it is essential(but they we’re definitely implied), so maybe that’s what has made people feel they have to say that RAPIDS is not essential for THEM, but whether they find it to be essential FOR THEM has no bearing on the topic of this thread, “Please Give us back Rapid Maneuvers.” I’ve said this before - maybe they should start another thread called “Please do not lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuvers because we do not think it is essential for anyone’s enjoyment” and give all their reasons why there.

To everyone who has been empathetic even if they didn’t understand why we feel the way we do, a sincere thank you! And to everyone who has offered suggestions about how to go about getting it back, even if they miss the part about people not wanting to PVP, a sincere thank you as well because I know you are just wanting to help the best way you can.

And you know, I think a big part of this is due to having Rapids for six years. If Rapids had started out at Rank 5, maybe you would have seen a few threads along the way from people wishing it wasn’t so hard to get, but there wouldn’t have been such an outcry and so many cancelled subs and hurt feelings from being ignored/brushed off by ZOS. I know some people have said, “We don’t like PvE but we have to PvE to get skills, so you should have to as well!” Again, having to PvP when we don’t want to or in some cases can’t due to anxiety or health reasons is only part of why this thread was started. The main reason was to say to ZOS to please lower the requirement for Rapids or give it back some other way, and to ask that to why did you have to take away Rapids to give people Vigor? In all this time that is the question that has yet to be answered, and may never be.

SilverBride

This is where I am coming from.

I'll never understand why rapids is even used outside Cyrodiil, let alone "essential" for anyone to enjoy the game. It's not like it increases your health or your damage, or anything that has an actual effect on gameplay. It's only moving faster for 30 seconds. Not having it doesn't stop you from doing anything except move faster for 30 seconds. Players who say they can't do anything without 30 second bursts of mounted speed are exaggerating the impact of this skill.

That being said, I had some empathy for players who are genuinely unable to get the skill back because they really don't want to PvP, which I understand. I even advocated for a compromise to lower the requirement.

The OP kept asking for an answer to his request to make rapids easier to earn again. This thread had actually been locked, but was unlocked when @GinaBruno gave the answer that they are happy with how this change is working and there is no plan to change it. There is really no reason to keep asking for a compromise because they made their decision.

This is why I encourage players to go another route and take some of the good suggestions that have been given and work toward getting this skill back if they find they really can't enjoy the game without it.

[Edited by poster]

JoeCapricorn

SilverBride wrote: »

I'll never understand why rapids is even used outside Cyrodiil, let alone "essential" for anyone to enjoy the game. It's not like it increases your health or your damage, or anything that has an actual effect on gameplay. It's only moving faster for 30 seconds. That is all it is. Not having it doesn't stop you from doing anything except move faster for 30 seconds. Players who say they can't do anything at all without 30 second bursts of mounted speed are competely exaggerating the impact of this skill.

If you were playing a game and used to doing a certain skill for six years, wouldn't you be a bit salty if it were then taken away and put behind an activity you did NOT enjoy to get back?

Rapid Maneuver, as had already been explained numerous times, is handy to get to world bosses, harrowstorms, dragons, geysers and dark anchors in time. It is handy to travel from a wayshrine to a crafting survey. It is useful for cutting the time it takes to collect skyshards. SIX YEARS WE HAD IT, ALL WE ARE ASKING IS TO GET IT BACK.

SilverBride wrote: »

That being said, I had some empathy for players who are genuinely unable to get the skill back because they really don't want to PvP, which I understand. I even advocated for a compromise to lower the requirement. Then I realized it wasn't PvP stopping some players from getting it back, rather that they just didn't want to put in the time.

You are wrong. It is the PVP that is stopping players from getting it back. It is the anxiety of PVP that is keeping players, including myself, from getting it back. The time constraints is also a valid reason, but I have a reluctance to go in Battlegrounds or Cyrodiil for most of the time - and when I do, I MUCH prefer to do so on my main. I have the most practice with him. I have TRIED to do PVP with some of my other alts and I always felt like I was useless at it. This is the case with my Sorcerer, Twilight-Amaranthine, my Templar Lykathea, my Warden Fen-Warden and my magicka Nightblade Apronice.

There are players that have posted in this thread that don't have Rapids on ANY alts. They are now faced with two choices, either PVP (which they hated) or spend crowns to get it back.

The artificial inconvenience did not have to happen like this, the choice shouldn't be to engage in a part of the game that some would rather avoid or spend 3000 crowns to unlock the skill-line.

SilverBride wrote: »

The OP kept asking for an answer to his request to make rapids easier to earn again. This thread had actually been locked, but was unlocked when @GinaBruno gave the answer that they are happy with how this change is working and there is no plan to change it. That's it. There is really no reason to keep asking for a compromise because they made their decision. Adding more and more pages to this thread isn't going to change anything.

It resolved nothing. All they said was that they would not revert the change. NO mention of compromise. NO mention of acknowledging the artificial inconvenience they created.

They need to address the possibility of compromise to get in my good graces. I'm not going to stop asking. If they lock this thread, the next one will be specifically about a compromise. LOWER THE REQUIREMENTS. MAKE IT EASIER AND LESS ANXIETY INDUCING TO REGAIN. MAYBE SWAP IT WITH SIEGE SHIELD. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

SilverBride wrote: »

This is why I encourage players to go another route and take some of the good suggestions that have been given and work toward getting this skill back if they find they really can't enjoy the game without it.

"Good suggestions" my foot! There are a lot of players that don't like PVP. Giving a "good suggestion" to go PVP when they dislike PVP is not a "good suggestion". Let me go back to my experience with my alts - this is going back YEARS, by the way, where whenever I go in PVP with them I felt more or less useless outside of using siege equipment. I didn't feel like I was doing damage. I didn't feel like I was healing. I hated it! That is why outside of my main, only two of my alts are at Assault 4.

44 days remain with my subscription. @ZOS_GinaBruno - there is still time to make this right. Compromise!

[Edit to remove bait]

SilverBride

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

There are players that have posted in this thread that don't have Rapids on ANY alts. They are now faced with two choices, either PVP (which they hated) or spend crowns to get it.

Or they can try playing without it and see if they can make that work.

JoeCapricorn

If they lower the requirements, why does it matter to you? If they make it easier to regain, what is the argument against that?

Why are they resistant to compromise? Are they busy? Are there other reasons?

It will not hurt them to compromise. Lowering it to Assault 3, even. They could literally do this November 16. They could literally put this issue to rest with an actually satisfactory answer.

Jaraal

SilverBride wrote: »

This is where I am coming from.

I'll never understand why rapids is even used outside Cyrodiil

And you don't have to.


That's the beauty of it!

SilverBride

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

If they lower the requirements, why does it matter to you? If they make it easier to regain, what is the argument against that?

Don't forget that I advocated for dropping the requirement even though I believe the whole issue has been blown way out of proportion. And I did so because it won't hurt anyone and would make some players happy. And I still support that.

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

They could literally put this issue to rest with an actually satisfactory answer.

I may be wrong, but I very much doubt they have even looked at this thread for a very long time, and most likely consider the issue closed.

Regardless, I am done. It's just not worth the frustration trying to convince players to do what they need to get the skill back instead of waiting for something that most likely isn't going to happen.

Elvenheart

To be completely honest, each time I’ve posted in this thread I’ve always thought that would be the last time because there just isn’t anything left to say. But then someone else posts, and I feel compelled to add something. That is because I really really care about this game. It has been my favorite game for a long time now, for reasons I’ve posted about in other threads. It’s for this reason that I post - I hate seeing something like this get ignored that would be so easy for ZOS to rectify for so many people in a way that would not take anything away from anyone but only help people play the game the way they want to.

Other posts talk about all the feedback that is ignored on PTS about so many different things, and all the dissatisfaction with bugs going live that should never have made it past testing, posts about Cyrodiil and PvP being unplayable, posts about peoples’s dissatisfaction with the way proc sets work, posts about people’s disappointment over what happened to vampires (I am totally with you there, @SilverBride, I was so let down about the changes they made that were supposed to make vampires better, but I’m just doing the best I can with what we have now)...the list goes on and on. I know that everything can’t be fixed in a day and that some things maybe can’t be fixed at all, but lowering the requirements for Rapids seems like such a little basic common-sense QoL they could do to make at least some people happy without hurting anyone else.

idk

idk wrote: »

I have rapid maneuvers on all my characters. Zos never took it away from me.

Same thing here.

JoeCapricorn

Elvenheart wrote: »

To be completely honest, each time I’ve posted in this thread I’ve always thought that would be the last time because there just isn’t anything left to say. But then someone else posts, and I feel compelled to add something. That is because I really really care about this game. It has been my favorite game for a long time now, for reasons I’ve posted about in other threads. It’s for this reason that I post - I hate seeing something like this get ignored that would be so easy for ZOS to rectify for so many people in a way that would not take anything away from anyone but only help people play the game the way they want to. Other posts talk about all the feedback that is ignored on PTS about so many different things, and all the dissatisfaction with bugs going live that should never have made it past testing, posts about Cyrodiil and PvP being unplayable, posts about peoples’s dissatisfaction with the way proc sets work, posts about people’s disappointment over what happened to vampires (I am totally with you there, @SilverBride, I was so let down about the changes they made that were supposed to make vampires better, but I’m just doing the best I can with what we have now)...the list goes on and on. I know that everything can’t be fixed in a day and that some things maybe can’t be fixed at all, but lowering the requirements for Rapids seems like such a little basic common-sense QoL they could do to make at least some people happy without hurting anyone else.

Same, this is my reason for staying here and arguing as well. If I didn't like the game as much as I did, I would have packed up and gone home long ago. The fact is, I still really like ESO. I managed to keep up with the daily rewards and crafting writs through a pandemic, through a presidential election and through dealing with the passing of my mother. I've actually had less of a daily attendance in 2019 than 2020, and I consider that year by all accounts better in most aspects.

The fact that I am here arguing about a change made in August all the way in November shows I care. I want this game to continue to succeed, and I know the team has faced unique challenges this year with the pandemic. I wouldn't be surprised if part of why the Markarth launch was less than ideal was because many of the developers were distracted by political events in the United States. Maybe with that behind us, that won't be as much of a factor. The pandemic will though, and with that ramping up again I don't think ZOS is going to stop working from home. We definitely won't have a chapter reveal for 2021 in Vegas!

Okay, that last paragraph was a tangent. I don't want to keep going on that though, but it is important to say because the devs have things to focus on. Maybe making Rapid Maneuver easier to get wasn't on their big list of priorities, because the top items of the list were implementing set collections, creating new content for Markarth, etc., and now in two weeks it is to fix some of the major bugs from Markarth. Another bug that has been in the game since Greymoor hasn't been fixed, but it is an obscure bug, and it might not be fixed for a while - Harvestmap's 3D pins don't work in Blackreach due to an API bug. Still hasn't been fixed. So it has been clear, since March, that the pandemic has had a major effect on the team's ability to respond to bugs.

I don't know what I will do in 44 days when my subscription lapses. I will happily restore my subscription if a Rapid Maneuver compromise is implemented. If they moved the requirement to Assault 3, that would be enough for me. Much lower wall to get it back. I'd be able to get it done on all of my alts in the course of a day.

But maybe 44 days from now I decide to resub anyway... and that will itself depend on how the team handles the Markarth situation... and keep playing ESO. I LOVE ESO. Nothing will change that!

But I will still fight if Rapid Maneuver isn't given a compromise. I fight not because it would benefit me, but it would benefit players who are too anxious to PVP and are then faced with a difficult choice to get a skill back that they had for six years.

allhailskippy

idk wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I have rapid maneuvers on all my characters. Zos never took it away from me.

Same thing here.

You know you're quoting yourself here right?

Hotdog_23

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I really wish they would change their focus to earning rapids back rather than hanging on to an unlikely outcome.

You’re right, @SilverBride.

I wonder how many players skipped the eight (8) weeks of double AP during the Cyrodiil testing?

Console players did not get 8 weeks of double AP. We did not have to put up with the testing thanks goodness. Just saying we didn't get double AP.

Obsidian3

Because of that horrible cool down testing, PvP is a even more of a nightmare for us PvE players. I can't even finish leveling my last toon to Assault 5.

Since ZoS has given us the middle finger on this, and the Markarth update broke the damned game, my love for this game is waning rapidly.

Orange_fire_dragon

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Please require "Assault" level 2 for Rapid Maneuver again.

Not all of my characters are PVP friendly but all of them use Rapid Maneuver for the extra mount speed when riding around the world. This is a very basic ability I require for a new character just to move around especially when mount speed is so low! PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this, please undo this change!

not all my characters are pve friendly either, please make undaunted passives rank 1 I need the extra resources to complete my build, while at it. not all of my characters are quest friendly either, make psijic skills all open, I need the abilities for my pvp builds.

What do you mean, I, have to do the content but you guys don't? well this is double standards at its best.

Orange_fire_dragon

TineaCruris wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Removed quote

vigor is only good for stamina toons. This change screws anyone trying to level an alt.

oh you're saying that stamina toons don't deserve an easy access to self heals? I'll be fine with this revert if it means that magicka toons that all have an early access to self heals, will not be able to self heal until vigor is unlocked at rank 5. (:

Jaraal

Vigor is fine where it is, for those who actually want it. We just don't like Rapids being taken away from those who earned it and have been using it for years.

There are plenty of ways that Rapids could have been retained or left at the same accessability without affecting the decision to make Vigor easier to get. But they chose the unpopular solution.... for reasons we can't speculate on without sanctions.

WeerW3ir

Sadly the more you write here. The more you feed them. (yes. Ironic to say it)
I must say you can snip my writings out. But the truth is they not want to accept the changes when as you can clearly see nothing changed since that.
Maybe just maybe just let it go? Multiple people already said better and better statements about this. Could qoute so many, but enough if you go and read back.

I wont stand on any side this time because clearly not worth it. (also im getting snipped for it cuz they hunt me) But maybe it is time to let it be as it is? Im sorry for your lose. But clearly nothing happened about it. //

Eventually maybe something will happen but now you must accept it. If you can. I know its hard. But 45 page and nothing. Just Snips and edits for baiting.

warabi

It's really odd to me that not only do people like you want us to give up, but you actively come in this topic and tell us to get over it. I would really hope if something bothered you enough you'd be willing to fight for it at least a little bit. It's honestly rather sad that one forum topic can bother people like you so much that you feel the need to come in here and berate us. That's fine though 'cause you are helping bump the topic anyway, so thanks!

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After review, we have decided to close this thread given that it has run its course and doesn't appear to be going anywhere. It seems that leaving this thread open just allows members to continue going in circles with similar debates and points of view.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-