Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Iselin

I feel like I'm in a time warp when I see stamina healing using Vigor as the reason for this swap. 3 or 4 years ago? Sure, OK. Almost no stamina build had viable self healing options back then.

But now? I can't think of any class that can't do a stamina build with self-healing without touching vigor.

forthwinds

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

How can you be happy with how the change is performing when the community has clearly let you know they are not happy with it? Sounds like you guys are out of touch with what the community wants, shocker...

Jaraal

Iselin wrote: »

I feel like I'm in a time warp when I see stamina healing using Vigor as the reason for this swap. 3 or 4 years ago? Sure, OK. Almost no stamina build had viable self healing options back then.

But now? I can't think of any class that can't do a stamina build with self-healing without touching vigor.

Agreed.

The only time I will ever slot Vigor on any of my stamina characters is if I'm doing casual group events like dragons or harrowstorms. And it's only the AOE morph, to help other players stay alive. I don't have the self only morph on any of my guys. They all have better self-healing options.

Which makes it even more curious that they keep touting the necessity (all of a sudden, after six years) of this spell for stamina players.

Do they even play their own game?

Nomadic_Atmoran

forthwinds wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

How can you be happy with how the change is performing when the community has clearly let you know they are not happy with it? Sounds like you guys are out of touch with what the community wants, shocker...

A dozen or so posters on a single forum post is now speaking on behalf of what the community wants?

Jaraal

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

forthwinds wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

How can you be happy with how the change is performing when the community has clearly let you know they are not happy with it? Sounds like you guys are out of touch with what the community wants, shocker...

A dozen or so posters on a single forum post is now speaking on behalf of what the community wants?

We speak for those who have no voice. Those (20% so far) who just walk away and don't look back.

Linaleah

here is what I don't understand. people who are against ZoS making rapids easier to acess again. why? why are you so against it? we are not asking for it to be done at the cost of vigor. if you are not using it yourself - then it doesn't affect you one way or another. WHY are you against it?

dissatisfaction btw goes beyond people on the forums in MORE then one thread (there used to be more, but they closed other threads to "keep discussion consolidated" )

that official response though.... no better keep my thoughts to myself. I'd rather not get a warning.

Sergykid

you know how little percentage of the players playing the game are on forums. Sure, most of the forum wants Rapids to be again easily achievable, but they say that they are happy with how this change is performing. They monitor the players from the entire game, not the opinion of a little percentage that uses the forums. They have their reasons why they did this change, based on a meeting of multiple people with access to multiple statistics.

and, in the end, it's a business, and money talk, not your satisfaction.

MageCatF4F

Make it 13 then. I hate the change too, I was just waiting for an official response. Well we got one.
Same old BS.

Jaraal

And TBH, I feel for Gina, because she's just telling us what her bosses told her to tell us.

Sgrug

Sergykid wrote: »

you know how little percentage of the players playing the game are on forums. Sure, most of the forum wants Rapids to be again easily achievable, but they say that they are happy with how this change is performing. They monitor the players from the entire game, not the opinion of a little percentage that uses the forums. They have their reasons why they did this change, based on a meeting of multiple people with access to multiple statistics.

and, in the end, it's a business, and money talk, not your satisfaction.

Can you please get serious, the exact same thing can be said of Vigor. In fact many are even now saying in this thread Vigor at this time is pointless, maybe 3 or 4 years ago it made sense but not now.

Regardless there are way more than posting on Rapids than several here are trying to pretend otherwise, the PTS threads were blown up over this as well. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

SilverBride

I heard someone mention rapids in zone chat for the first time a couple of days ago. They were immediately shot down by several people telling them to go PvP and earn it. This doesn't sound like the majority of players are upset by the change.

[snip]

[edited for bait]

Sgrug

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

forthwinds wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

How can you be happy with how the change is performing when the community has clearly let you know they are not happy with it? Sounds like you guys are out of touch with what the community wants, shocker...

A dozen or so posters on a single forum post is now speaking on behalf of what the community wants?

First I reject the premise only a few are posting about this in support of Rapids and to say otherwise is to ignore the evidence in the posts. Count the number of people supporting this then say that again, easily proved or disproved how many have posted supporting Rapids.

Even so there are even fewer posting in support of this change and the need for Vigor so what does that say?

Ratinira

Sergykid wrote: »

you know how little percentage of the players playing the game are on forums. Sure, most of the forum wants Rapids to be again easily achievable, but they say that they are happy with how this change is performing. They monitor the players from the entire game, not the opinion of a little percentage that uses the forums. They have their reasons why they did this change, based on a meeting of multiple people with access to multiple statistics.

and, in the end, it's a business, and money talk, not your satisfaction.

They definitely have their own reason, the one they cannot tell, but it has nothing to do with vigor.
They definitely monitor players...but it has nothing to do with vigor too.

And the about money and satisfaction... that is the point to be careful at. Only happy player will bring money. Unhappy player may suddenly stop brining them when the dissatisfaction became excessive.

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

I heard someone mention rapids in zone chat for the first time a couple of days ago. They were immediately shot down by several people telling them to go PvP and earn it. This doesn't sound like the majority of players are upset by the change.

[snip]

[edited for bait]

And I have heard in open chat many people upset over Rapids and no one rebuffed them.

Even more amazing, I never, ever not once in 6 years heard anyone ask to have Vigor moved up.

Sounds to me people are upset and also sounds like no one was clamoring for this Vigor change by those metrics.

DarcyMardin

Thanks for responding. As everyone has already said, we haven’t been asking for a reversion but for an alternate solution. Taking away a very useful skill that we’ve used for years to make our new characters’ lives less arduous is what we are objecting to.

I’ve already spoken with my wallet on this one, and I’ll continue to do so. It’s tough to play without 3 ESO+ subscriptions, but I’m managing.

dazee

The real question is what [snip] would change the least combat related pvp skill to require a higher rank?

[edited for bashing]

JoeCapricorn

SilverBride wrote: »

I heard someone mention rapids in zone chat for the first time a couple of days ago. They were immediately shot down by several people telling them to go PvP and earn it. This doesn't sound like the majority of players are upset by the change.

[snip]

[edited for bait]

I am not satisfied with the update, as it does not acknowledge possible alternatives, Gina only said that the change would not be "reverted", but none of the alternatives really involve a reversion of the change to begin with. Now my request is for one of the alternatives to be seriously considered, so that this issue can be put to rest and everyone can be happy. There is no reason for there not to be a solution that allows for both Vigor and Rapids being easily accessible.

At the very least I want the steep wall to regain Rapid Maneuver lowered. Assault 3 sounds like a reasonable compromise. The second skill of Support requires Support 4, so I see no reason why Rapid Maneuver cannot be lowered to Assault 3.

Swapping Rapids with Siege Shield is also a good idea: Siege Shield is arguably a skill used in assaulting keeps to protect siege weapons from damage. Rapid Maneuver is more useful to traverse the countryside and makes more sense as a Support skill. Vigor is an Assault skill, even though a morph of it can be used to heal other players, so a third alternative is to have Vigor as the first skill in Support and Siege Shield as the second skill in Assault with Rapids in the first skill in Assault.

Another thread about the Rapids change had a poll attached to it. Over 60% of players in that poll were against the change making Rapid Maneuver more difficult to obtain.

I bet if it were put to a poll, the most popular alternative would be swapping Rapids with Siege Shield.

[snip]

[edited for quit post]

SilverBride

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I am not satisfied with the update, as it does not acknowledge possible alternatives, Gina only said that the change would not be "reverted"

But right before that she said:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are happy with how this change is performing...

They are not going to make changes to something they are happy with.

I understand that you are unhappy and I do sympathize with you. You are one of the few advocates in this thread who has not let their anger get the best of them in their replies, and you bring some reasonable questions to the table. But they made their statement, and 100 more pages of the same thing being posted over and over isn't going to change anything.

Wytch

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

Look, I get that you have to toe the company line, but please, tell whoever gives you these canned responses to stop insulting our intelligence.

"We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS," - if that's true, it's obviously all been ignored in favor of trying to sell a few more crowns to those few people that both pvp and have the money to waste on the ava skill lines.

"and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. " - Obviously not.

"Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability," - *IF* this is actually true, it wouldn't be the case if zos actually cared enough to bother FIXING THE ACTUAL BROKEN STUFF, like stam classes not having the heals they need apparently. Each class has 3 skill lines. I used to think that was designed for 1 tanking line, 1 DPS line, and 1 healing line, and each had a mag/stam morph. Apparently, this was just wishful thinking. Night Mother, forgive me.

"so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players." - For those, I'm guessing, 5 players. All joking aside, this gets to the heart of what the actual outrage is about. We DON'T CARE that you made vigor easier to access for the few people that actually care about it. STOP defending Vigor, we don't give a flea's fart about vigor being easier to get. What we are so outraged by is that you STOLE something from us in the process that we had for years, making it so that those of us that want it back are FORCED into [snip] content that we HATE and/or pony up 30 bux per alt.

[snip]

Does no one there actually get that? Is it really that hard to understand that this could have been accomplished in a much better way that didn't put rapids so far out of reach? [snip]

I'm not only angry over this blatant back-stabbing, but I am also supremely disappointed. I let myself fall into the trap of thinking this was a wonderful game that actually cared about what the player base wanted from the game [snip] I just also happen to be naive enough to still hold out a little hope that this can still be fixed.

[edited for baiting]

Flaaklypa

Jaraal wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

I feel like I'm in a time warp when I see stamina healing using Vigor as the reason for this swap. 3 or 4 years ago? Sure, OK. Almost no stamina build had viable self healing options back then.

But now? I can't think of any class that can't do a stamina build with self-healing without touching vigor.

Agreed.

The only time I will ever slot Vigor on any of my stamina characters is if I'm doing casual group events like dragons or harrowstorms. And it's only the AOE morph, to help other players stay alive. I don't have the self only morph on any of my guys. They all have better self-healing options.

Which makes it even more curious that they keep touting the necessity (all of a sudden, after six years) of this spell for stamina players.

Do they even play their own game?

Do you even play pvp?

Vigor is a must have there for every stam build in the game

Jaraal

frontend wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

I feel like I'm in a time warp when I see stamina healing using Vigor as the reason for this swap. 3 or 4 years ago? Sure, OK. Almost no stamina build had viable self healing options back then.

But now? I can't think of any class that can't do a stamina build with self-healing without touching vigor.

Agreed.

The only time I will ever slot Vigor on any of my stamina characters is if I'm doing casual group events like dragons or harrowstorms. And it's only the AOE morph, to help other players stay alive. I don't have the self only morph on any of my guys. They all have better self-healing options.

Which makes it even more curious that they keep touting the necessity (all of a sudden, after six years) of this spell for stamina players.

Do they even play their own game?

Do you even play pvp?

Vigor is a must have there for every stam build in the game

If you're relying on stamina group heals, I would ask you the same question.

I've been Alliance Rank 10 for a long time, and I don't slot Vigor in Cyro or IC. Battle Spirit makes it a very poor choice, as it won't outheal any but the weakest of incoming damage.

Of those who actually use it, I would say the vast majority use it in PvE.

JoeCapricorn

SilverBride wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I am not satisfied with the update, as it does not acknowledge possible alternatives, Gina only said that the change would not be "reverted"

But right before that she said:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are happy with how this change is performing...

They are not going to make changes to something they are happy with.

I understand that you are unhappy and I do sympathize with you. You are one of the few advocates in this thread who has not let their anger get the best of them in their replies, and you bring some reasonable questions to the table. But they made their statement, and 100 more pages of the same thing being posted over and over isn't going to change anything.

That statement was particularly curious to me. It could mean they are happy to see that more players are using Vigor. Cynically, it could also mean they are happy to see more people spending Crowns on Alliance Skill Lines in order to quickly regain Rapid Maneuver, but I am not sure if that figure overcomes the number of people who have cancelled their subscriptions. When I changed my account status, I still several months of ESO Plus time, because I spend it on a yearly basis to save money. Perhaps on their metrics, they won't see me "unsubbed" until December when the 83 days run out. Other users might go on a monthly basis, or some other period of time, so it could be that a lot of the unsubs also won't show up on their end until several months from now.

Believe me, I couldn't count the number of times I edited a reply of mine so that it wouldn't need to be moderated, whether I let slip a naughty word or referenced something else. I am certainly angry about this change and it is an emotionally charged discussion, but I feel that letting anger take over will reduce the credibility of my argument.

Furthermore, Gina's statement does not quite align with the update I saw on the German forum. Jens posted something that it was in the hands of the combat team and to still be patient. However, this morning Kai has posted a German version of Gina's statement. In addition, he further participated in the discussion that it seems like this might be the definitive answer for now, but at the same time the German thread is having the exact same discussion and the exact same ideas (Swapping Rapid with Siege Shield). People over there are angry as well, so even though it might seem like this is the "definitive" word, that does not mean everyone is going to accept it without protest. The new consumables were also called an "olive branch" by Kai, but in order to get the recipes for these consumables one would have to PVP or spend gold on the Tortes other players made which might be expensive.

I pledge to be as loud about my displeasure as much as I can for the next 83 days while my subscription is active. Having been someone who has been subscribed for most of the time since launch, I think I deserve to have my voice heard at the very minimum. I estimate I spent around $600 on this game (at least) with yearly subs and even more for the four chapters that have been released as well. That is part of the reason why I take this change so personally, because I already invested so much time and effort into this game and to have something valuable and useful taken away and put behind a wall of hours of anxiety inducing PVP absolutely infuriates me!

silvereyes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here.

No, I'm afraid you don't.

Is anyone else utterly confused by all the mixed messages coming from ZOS lately?

• "We hear your feedback, but here is a response to a question you didn't quite ask, and we aren't going to change anything."
• "We can't accurately test our Cyrodiil AoE tweaks on internal servers, so we are going to have you all test them on production. But please go simultaneously have fun in Imperial City!"
• "We can't accurately test our Cyrodiil AoE tweaks on internal servers, so we are going to have you all test them on production. But please go buy Greymoor on sale and simultaneously have fun riding all over Tamriel digging up treasures on your slow horse that you can't speed up until you go grind out AP in Cyrodiil!"

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient.... We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

This is really the only message that even makes sense. [snip]

[edited for conspiracy theories]

Sylvermynx

I did try vigor in PVE. I didn't find it any more useful than the "normal" heals my stam characters have. I think maybe the only ones I'm still using it on are stamDKs....

anitajoneb17_ESO

Wytch wrote: »

Look, I get that you have to toe the company line, but please, tell whoever gives you these canned responses to stop insulting our intelligence.

^this^
Really, I'm the kind one with ZOS in general most of the times.
But this post from Gina (and I mean the post, not Gina) is close to infuriating.

"We understand that you want to walk in shoes which is more comfortable than bare feet. We heard and listened to you explaining why you need shoes. But since you also need an umbrella for rainy days, we're giving you all an umbrella and take your shoes away - because we've decided it's either/or, not both. We are happy with this decision."

(and look at the nice shoe store over there)...

Now in order to see things positively : this answer is pretty clear and straightforward. It's nearly nicer to hear that than to hear that they're "investigating the relative importance of wearing shoes all the time vs. having an umbrella on rainy days". So now we know the answer, it won't change, let's move on (or away).

Zephiran23

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

If it's a must have, why is hidden in the Assault skill line? Essential skills should be part of class or weapon skill lines and there should be in game recommendations to take that skill and slot it immediately. There's nothing in the levelling process that says "Don't ignore that letter you got at level 10 that looks like it's going to divert your story progress again and go and do something in yet another zone."

The 2 newest classes are capable of slotting class heals if required. If I'm leveling a stamina build, my magica pool is mostly just going to be sitting there, so I may as well use it for healing. Probably not the most effective use of them, but more than capable of keeping them alive outside of say shrike minibosses at Harrowstorms.

dazee

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I did try vigor in PVE. I didn't find it any more useful than the "normal" heals my stam characters have. I think maybe the only ones I'm still using it on are stamDKs....

I see why they made the change now although it could have been done better. Vigor is the only good stam heal for some builds. Personally most of my stam builds use 2h so I just use rally.

silvereyes

Zephiran23 wrote: »

Essential skills should be part of class or weapon skill lines and there should be in game recommendations to take that skill and slot it immediately.

Or, as some have recommended, the World skill tree. Make it blue or purple and it won't look out of place under Soul Magic.

newtinmpls

Still hating not having rapids any more

esotoon

Sergykid wrote: »

you know how little percentage of the players playing the game are on forums. Sure, most of the forum wants Rapids to be again easily achievable, but they say that they are happy with how this change is performing. They monitor the players from the entire game, not the opinion of a little percentage that uses the forums. They have their reasons why they did this change, based on a meeting of multiple people with access to multiple statistics.

Quick question for you. Why do you have so much faith in ZOS' ability to monitor their player's needs, when they have just admitted to you that it has taken them over 6 years to give their players easy access to Vigor, a skill which they consider "a must-have for Stamina build survivability"?