Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Sevn

Just think how this all could have been avoided if these same players were on board long ago when stamina users were BEGGING to have Vigor moved elsewhere.

Crickets because SO many magic users couldn't care less. Now the sky is falling.

Players like me who already had to take 14 stam characters to lvl 5 for vigor are unaffected but others need to suck it up and get to it. Can't believe Zos is just now 6 years later figuring out how important Vigor is to most stam builds, but whatever.

By all indications this isn't getting reverted and time spent beating a dead horse here in the forums is time lost ingame earning rapids.

virtus753

Sevn wrote: »

Just think how this all could have been avoided if these same players were on board long ago when stamina users were BEGGING to have Vigor moved elsewhere.

Crickets because SO many magic users couldn't care less. Now the sky is falling.

Players like me who already had to take 14 stam characters to lvl 5 for vigor are unaffected but others need to suck it up and get to it. Can't believe Zos is just now 6 years later figuring out how important Vigor is to most stam builds, but whatever.

By all indications this isn't getting reverted and time spent beating a dead horse here in the forums is time lost ingame earning rapids.

We’ve been told this won’t get reverted, yes, but I think it’s important that both they and we see how much push back there continues to be on this. If people fall silent, it risks sending the message we’re ok with it now. Personally, I’m not, and I have no intention of going out of my way to grind for something I had that was taken away without justification. I won’t play that game.

Since I already have a steady supply of transmute crystals I’ve got nothing better to do with, reconstructing Rings of the Wild Hunt it shall be.

allhailskippy

Sevn wrote: »

Just think how this all could have been avoided if these same players were on board long ago when stamina users were BEGGING to have Vigor moved elsewhere.

Crickets because SO many magic users couldn't care less. Now the sky is falling.

Based on what has happened, had everyone been on board earlier, assuming the same resolution came into play, we would just be having this discussion earlier. Or, had things been moved on a LOT earlier (I don't know when the vigor discussion was up), but if it was years ago, then this might have played out differently.

Sevn wrote: »

Players like me who already had to take 14 stam characters to lvl 5 for vigor are unaffected but others need to suck it up and get to it. Can't believe Zos is just now 6 years later figuring out how important Vigor is to most stam builds, but whatever.

Again, I haven't seen anyone arguing against the change that made Vigor easier to get. I'm a primarily magicka player, but I see benefit into making that skill easier to get stamina characters. Many of us (although definitely not all here) also agree that the level 5 barrier is a lengthy grind for non-pvp players for any skill in the pvp line. So why not keep the ones that are more pvp specific there (aka.. pretty much any skill besides rapids and vigor).

It is especially bad when you scale it with more characters, as you have already experienced.

Sevn wrote: »

By all indications this isn't getting reverted and time spent beating a dead horse here in the forums is time lost ingame earning rapids.

That is one way to look at things, and for the most part, the changes that get made to this game fall under this category for me. But I truly believe that this is something that can be resolved for a large portion of dissatisfied players without losing the QoL improvements that ZoS states they are happy with.

At this point in the discussion, things have generally moved past the 'we don't like this change' phase into a plea to change it again to something less unpleasant. The ongoing discussion serves to keep that voice in the squeaky wheel state as long as possible.

I am still affected by this change, and I would still like it resolved. And as long as I haven't outright been told "No", I feel there is room to go forward with another, positive change.

And I know that the official response felt like a "No" to many people, but the way it is phrased leaves many alternatives to resolve this ongoing situation.

Sevn

I wish you all the best, but I wouldn't say without justification, just justification you don't agree with, which is perfectly understandable.

The argument was years ago when stam users were begging for Vigor to be moved to the Undaunted skill line.

I learned long ago that beating my head against the wall expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity. I can not control what Zos does, but I am in control of my own actions.

Best of luck with your ongoing fight!

EvilAutoTech

Started a new character today. Got to level 10 and went to Cyrodiil. Breton Templar and red had the whole map. Guess how much I earned past the intro quest?

Destai

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feedback about this change. We’ve been reading your feedback since this change went onto the PTS, and we understand the concerns you’ve presented here. Ultimately, this swap happened so Stamina builds have access to a heal earlier in the leveling experience. While we recognize being able to have Rapids as the first skill to use on other characters is convenient, Vigor is considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability, so giving access to the heal earlier is a major quality of life improvement for those players. We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with. Clearly we're not. Are you truly seeing the feedback and realizing how tone-deaf this sounds? It seems like every change you guys dig your heels in rather than implementing well reasoned feedback. This creates a lot of resentment and distrust when you guys announce any change. As a community manager, you really have to see this and learn from it.

SilverBride

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

Destai

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

There's a reasonable compromise where they could make vigor available first and the rapids earlier than 5. Very simple compromises but they're determined to make us grind for things we've previously had. Same mistakes with the VMA weapons. Completely ignoring feedback and then coming back with "thanks for feedback but we're not going to consider it".

SilverBride

Destai wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

There's a reasonable compromise where they could make vigor available first and the rapids earlier than 5.

Discussing that would be a lot more productive than only focusing on how unhappy some are. I think a lot of players would find that reasonable.

Elvenheart

Basically,

Six years ago: (players) “Stamina players need access to a heal!”

Now: (ZOS) “We recognize that stamina players need a heal so we switched Vigor & Rapids.”

Now: (players) “Why did you have to do it that way? We’re glad that stamina players were given a heal but why did you have to make Rapids harder to get. It makes it harder for everyone who would use rapids!”

Six years from now: (ZOS) “After much consideration, we decided that lowering the requirement for Rapids from Assault Level 5 to Assault Level 3 would be the best way to address new player speed issues.”

allhailskippy

Elvenheart wrote: »

Basically,

Six years ago: (players) “Stamina players need access to a heal!”

Now: (ZOS) “We recognize that stamina players need a heal so we switched Vigor & Rapids.”

Now: (players) “Why did you have to do it that way? We’re glad that stamina players were given a heal but why did you have to make Rapids harder to get. It makes it harder for everyone who would use rapids!”

Six years from now: (ZOS) “After much consideration, we decided that lowering the requirement for Rapids from Assault Level 5 to Assault Level 3 would be the best way to address new player speed issues.”

I certainly hope since it's currently in their face based on a recent change that we won't have to wait another 6 years. I will definitely (although unhappily) have given up trying to get a change to this long before the 6 year mark though.

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Started a new character today. Got to level 10 and went to Cyrodiil. Breton Templar and red had the whole map. Guess how much I earned past the intro quest?

I'm going to hazard a guess and say... not enough to get rapids?

Sevn wrote: »

Best of luck with your ongoing fight!

Thank you. You may be right. But for now, I'm still gonna hold onto some hope.

virtus753

Sevn wrote: »

I wish you all the best, but I wouldn't say without justification, just justification you don't agree with, which is perfectly understandable.

The argument was years ago when stam users were begging for Vigor to be moved to the Undaunted skill line.

I learned long ago that beating my head against the wall expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity. I can not control what Zos does, but I am in control of my own actions.

Best of luck with your ongoing fight!

There can’t be justification when they haven’t offered a reason that Rapids specifically had to be made so much more difficult to get in the first place. It is a purely artificial consequence. There were plenty of alternatives — some offered very early on the PTS — that involved keeping Rapids as easy to get while still making Vigor easier too. They have only said that they felt Vigor needed to be moved up and assumed that the rest followed inevitably and logically, which it does not. So no, it can’t be said to have been justified when no actual reason for changing Rapids the specific way they did was ever given in the first place.

Elvenheart

I’m just guessing, but it seems that simply lowering the levels each skill was attainable would have been the easiest way to go. Like, one at 1 or 2 and another at 3?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with. Clearly we're not.

It's not about what they're happy with, but it's not about what we're happy with either. It's about what we DO : logging in, hours played, subscriptions and crown purchases. And regarding those factors, they're much better informed than any of us. They know what they're doing.

Destai

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

There's a reasonable compromise where they could make vigor available first and the rapids earlier than 5.

Discussing that would be a lot more productive than only focusing on how unhappy some are. I think a lot of players would find that reasonable.

Of course. But @ZOS_GinaBruno needs to see and communicate this rather than just saying they hear our feedback and not elaborating on what feedback they've seen and chosen to discard. Again, the community management aspect at each of these crossroads needs some improvement - 36 pages of contention are a great illustration.

esotoon

Elvenheart wrote: »

I’m just guessing, but it seems that simply lowering the levels each skill was attainable would have been the easiest way to go. Like, one at 1 or 2 and another at 3?

Yes, that is one of several solutions that would have given players easy access to Vigor, without penalising players who need/use Rapids.

This is why this thread continues to roll on. People can understand the need to make Vigor more accessible (although I’d argue it is not the Stam heal solution people really need). What they can’t understand is why Rapids was made harder to get, when Rapids is just as essential to many players (arguably more than those who need early Vigor) as it was on the day the game launched. Nothing has changed about the game to make it any less needed, nor was it over performing so needed to be moved for the sake of balance.

Without an explanation for this, it leaves players confused and angry, and prone to think the worst of ZOS, given that no one, not even those who don’t care about this change, have been able to come up with a reason for justifying making Rapids harder to get, when there were other options. So all we are left with is either ZOS do not respect player’s time or their needs, or conspiracy theories which we are not allowed to talk about.

daim

It's funny that first Rapids was nerfed and then they're making us to grind for it. What does that tell about us
I wouldn't be bothered even to use it anymore without the mods but yeah.. not gonna buy it from the store that's for certain.

Seriously though. Please swap it to the second spot after Vigor in skill tree so we can quit whining.

esotoon

daim wrote: »

Seriously though. Please swap it to the second spot after Vigor in skill tree so we can quit whining.

Rapids is the first skill after Vigor. It's the fact that it now requires Assualt Lvl 5 that is the problem. :j

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

There were three possible solutions.

1. Not make Vigor easier = Not all customers happy
2. Make Vigor easier, but penalise Rapids = Not all cutomers are happy
3. Make Vigor easier in a way that doesn’t penalise anyone = All customers happy

I’m glad to see that after 36 pages (plus the many deleted ones), you are finally agreeing that either ZOS didn’t take into consideration the needs of all their players when making the decision to make this change, or made the change for reasons that had nothing to do with player’s needs.

daim

esotoon wrote: »

daim wrote: »

Seriously though. Please swap it to the second spot after Vigor in skill tree so we can quit whining.

Rapids is the first skill after Vigor. It's the fact that it now requires Assualt Lvl 5 that is the problem. :j

I stand corrected. Sorry, I remembered wrong that there was one between.

SFDB

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are happy with how this change is performing and have no current plans to revert it.

There's the flaw, right there. There's not one change, there are two changes: one moving Vigor, the other moving Rapid Maneuver. These were done at the same time, but that doesn't mean this is one or the other. The question that needs to be answered is: What is the benefit to the game of Rapid Maneuver - a means of getting around the PVP map faster - taking longer, coupled with the fact that earning it requires going around the map slower? How is the game benefited? Because if it's not, then why CAN'T they both be lower down the list? Where's the law that says something MUST be at level 5?

[snip]

[Edit for Bashing.]

Elvenheart

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

If it's about what the customers are happy with, then you need to consider all the customers. And many of those are fine with this change.

There were three possible solutions.

1. Not make Vigor easier = Not all customers happy
2. Make Vigor easier, but penalise Rapids = Not all cutomers are happy
3. Make Vigor easier in a way that doesn’t penalise anyone = All customers happy

I’m glad to see that after 36 pages (plus the many deleted ones), you are finally agreeing that either ZOS didn’t take into consideration the needs of all their players when making the decision to make this change, or made the change for reasons that had nothing to do with player’s needs.

I choose option #3 😊🌈🦄

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

I’m glad to see that after 36 pages (plus the many deleted ones), you are finally agreeing that either ZOS didn’t take into consideration the needs of all their players when making the decision to make this change, or made the change for reasons that had nothing to do with player’s needs.

I'm not agreeing with any such thing, and I don't think ZoS did anything wrong. But that doesn't mean I am not open to a reasonable compromise that makes more players happy.

It's not me you need to convince, though. And presenting your compromise with supporting facts instead of blame will be a lot better received.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

I’m glad to see that after 36 pages (plus the many deleted ones), you are finally agreeing that either ZOS didn’t take into consideration the needs of all their players when making the decision to make this change, or made the change for reasons that had nothing to do with player’s needs.

I'm not agreeing with any such thing, and I don't think ZoS did anything wrong.

I'm confused. You said that "If it's about what the customers are happy with", which means you believe this decision could have been made for reasons that weren't to do with player's happiness.

You then said "then you need to consider all the customers." Which, given that this change penalises some players when there were options that penalised none, must mean that ZOS didn't take into account all their players. (You even bolded the "all" bit to show how essential it is.)

But now you are saying you disagreeing with that, and saying ZOS did nothing wrong?

But that doesn't mean I am not open to a reasonable compromise that makes more players happy.

Pity you don't work for ZOS, because clearly they aren't.

It's not me you need to convince, though. And presenting your compromise with supporting facts instead of blame will be a lot better received.

We have. ZOS still haven't given us a reason why those facts aren't accurate, or why they chose to make Rapids harder to get, when nothing about the game has changed to require Rapids be harder to get, nor removed the need for early access to it (the same need that was the reason it was put in the first slot to begin with).

Hurbster

Well if ZoS hadn't ignored all the suggestions in the PTS forum we would not even be having this argument...

EVERYONE agreed getting vigour early was a good idea. Should have been done years ago, shouldn't even be in the PvP tree, or at least in the support tree (at a stretch).

But what's the point, Silverbride? Arguing will just get this thread closed again. ZoS chose to do this in a way that inconveniences a great many people. Even after a thread full of alternative suggestions Well, that's on them, then.

Back to BG3, then.

esotoon

Hurbster wrote: »

Well if ZoS hadn't ignored all the suggestions in the PTS forum we would not even be having this argument...

This is what is so mystifying. It would be understandable if the desire to give people early access to Vigor had been so urgent/great that they overlooked any negative impact the Rapids change would have. But as they had it pointed out to them so many time on the PTS, with many possible solutions put forward by the community which would have allowed easy access to Vigor without penalising anyone, that means they have definitely deliberately chosen to make Rapids harder to get. A fact that's been reinforced by them doubling down on this change and stating that (even after more review since it went live), they are happy with it.

So the question remains, as to why.

Jaraal

esotoon wrote: »

What they can’t understand is why Rapids was made harder to get, when Rapids is just as essential to many players (arguably more than those who need early Vigor) as it was on the day the game launched. Nothing has changed about the game to make it any less needed, nor was it over performing so needed to be moved for the sake of balance.

Yes, by making the majority of Alliance War skill lines (both Assault and Support) harder to get by crippling people's ability to get around Cyrodiil effectively, they have basically made 8 skills, two ultimates, and several passives more difficult to reach, and left one skill the same, to make ONE skill easier to achieve by a minority of players who may or may not need it.... since many stamina players already have access to better heals. And they figured out that this strategy was important six years after the skills were originally optimized.

No bashing, no conspiracies, no motives inferred. Just plain old facts.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

I'm confused. You said that "If it's about what the customers are happy with", which means you believe this decision could have been made for reasons that weren't to do with player's happiness.

You then said "then you need to consider all the customers." Which, given that this change penalises some players when there were options that penalised none, must mean that ZOS didn't take into account all their players. (You even bolded the "all" bit to show how essential it is.)

Sorry for the confusion. I was replying to this poster's reply to Gina's previous post where she stated they are happy with how this change is working:

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with.

And I replied what I did, meaning if they base their decisions on what the customers are happy with, (which I never said I agree with, because I think making some players happy needs to be balanced with doing what is best for all), that they would then need to consider all the customers, not just the ones who may not like the change. I never considered that anyone was being penalized.

But I also said I found a compromise that was presented to be reasonable. It would make more people happy and I could back that.

Lord-Otto

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

It's not about what you're happy with, it's about what your customers are happy with. Clearly we're not.

It's not about what they're happy with, but it's not about what we're happy with either. It's about what we DO : logging in, hours played, subscriptions and crown purchases. And regarding those factors, they're much better informed than any of us. They know what they're doing.

Only takes them six years...

Sir_Aquillius

Everyone is entitled to your own opinion but I am Going to be unpopular here Getting to Alliance Rank 5 is EASY Cany satisfy everyone .Go into a populated server, get a ap buff from killing a boss in a cyrodill delve then you hop allong with your slow horse or you can run and wait until a keep is attacked then you sit back with your lovely fire ballista's pressing E and clicking THE LEFT MOUSE BUTTON (don't steal sieges hehe) at the enemy real hard work and watch the ap get collected you don't even need to have a pvp build to do it its a piece of cake and rinse and repeat and the tip of the iceberg You get a FREE SKILL POINT for levelling up your alliance skill SEXY. Oh and dont forget to follow the damn quest at the beginning off cyrodill you know what i mean this WELCOME TO CYRODILL OMG Cheese for everyone ok