Why nerf Iceheart?

ESO_Nightingale

They put such a unique and niche set into the trash because of the new monster set. What a *** joke.

xaraan

Altyrann wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Iceheart:
Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 6050 from 8600.
Reduced the damage per tick to 500 from 770.
Increased the cooldown to 12 seconds from 6.

Developer Comment:
Iceheart has long been a powerful defensive set that has become a staple for situations where you want to sacrifice damage for survivability, especially in instances such as Maelstrom Arena and no-death Trial runs. While we love the idea of this set helping in those contexts, the value of defensive and offensive potential this set provided was leagues beyond our standards when comparing it to other sets such as Brands of the Imperium or Phoenix.

Looks like a useful, popular, set has taken not one but three hits to bring it into line with sets nobody uses, or to help make the rather useless new monster set look slightly less useless. As per the Dev comment, we were already sacrificing damage for survivability, so it feels like a triple nerf is rather overkill.

I have to say, sometimes the dev comments on changes don't do them any favors in promoting confidence in the player base that they know what they are doing.

Alienoutlaw

xaraan wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Iceheart:
Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 6050 from 8600.
Reduced the damage per tick to 500 from 770.
Increased the cooldown to 12 seconds from 6.

Developer Comment:
Iceheart has long been a powerful defensive set that has become a staple for situations where you want to sacrifice damage for survivability, especially in instances such as Maelstrom Arena and no-death Trial runs. While we love the idea of this set helping in those contexts, the value of defensive and offensive potential this set provided was leagues beyond our standards when comparing it to other sets such as Brands of the Imperium or Phoenix.

Looks like a useful, popular, set has taken not one but three hits to bring it into line with sets nobody uses, or to help make the rather useless new monster set look slightly less useless. As per the Dev comment, we were already sacrificing damage for survivability, so it feels like a triple nerf is rather overkill.

I have to say, sometimes the dev comments on changes don't do them any favors in promoting confidence in the player base that they know what they are doing.

how can you possible justify comparing a 5pc set to a 2pc monster set? by that logic ALL VMA weapons should be nerfed as they out perform most monster sets and 5pc sets???

xaraan

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Iceheart:
Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 6050 from 8600.
Reduced the damage per tick to 500 from 770.
Increased the cooldown to 12 seconds from 6.

Developer Comment:
Iceheart has long been a powerful defensive set that has become a staple for situations where you want to sacrifice damage for survivability, especially in instances such as Maelstrom Arena and no-death Trial runs. While we love the idea of this set helping in those contexts, the value of defensive and offensive potential this set provided was leagues beyond our standards when comparing it to other sets such as Brands of the Imperium or Phoenix.

Looks like a useful, popular, set has taken not one but three hits to bring it into line with sets nobody uses, or to help make the rather useless new monster set look slightly less useless. As per the Dev comment, we were already sacrificing damage for survivability, so it feels like a triple nerf is rather overkill.

I have to say, sometimes the dev comments on changes don't do them any favors in promoting confidence in the player base that they know what they are doing.

how can you possible justify comparing a 5pc set to a 2pc monster set? by that logic ALL VMA weapons should be nerfed as they out perform most monster sets and 5pc sets???

I'm not.

SidraWillowsky

I just don't agree that it is (was, RIP) a carry set. I've run vMA both with and without it and can think of one instance where it brought me back from the brink of death. Otherwise, it was a great tool for getting me through my first vMA clear and learning the mechs. No one is running it for vet HM leaderboard/speed/etc runs. The DPS loss is not insignificant by a substantial margin.

It's also a slap in the face to @ESO_Nightingale and the rest of the Frost Discord members who spend a ton of time brainstorming ways for frost builds to be viable without making them OP. You gave us the 10% crit bonus to frost damage but annihilated the ONE monster set available that does frost damage.

I get that it's a cash grab (disgusting, btw), but I'm so disappointed that you nerfed such a benign monster set. Could you not just buff the whatshisface set coming out? Or come out with another frost-based set (bc, you know... Skyrim...)?

Hymzir

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Hey @ZOS_GinaBruno , I hate throwing out the ZOS tag, but could you pass these thoughts on to the combat balancing folk? I know I am just a drop in the ocean here, but this is something that I would hope they could see, even if it doesn'tt end up changing anything.

I don't usually post more than once in this sort of a thread, and I did already post what I thought about the nerf (it's utterly stupid and lame.)

But I just wanted to note, that you are not just a drop in the ocean on this one. The whole ocean is pretty much in agreement in condemming the nerf.

In fact, I do not recall any previous nerf, that was as universally condemmed by the player base, as this stupid nerf on Iceheart.

You are not alone, we stand united on this one.

Eormenric

I think the changes to both Iceheart and Mother Ciannait are welcomed, but too intense on the Iceheart side. Let's examine how the developer's are intending the usage for damage shields as well as players defining how these abilities and items should function based on their understanding of the game.

1) Player Perspective: Damage shields are prevalent and notoriously difficult to break in PvP. Developer Perspective: It's all good.
For anyone frustrated by a near-death player spamming Harness Magicka, any nerf to a damage shield is welcome. The current options to break damage shields quickly (Champion Points Shattering Blows and Medium Armor Shield Breaker) are not only exclusive to the CP System, but also Stamina users (I guess Magicka users have an easier time breaking shields naturally?). This is to say that damage shields in PvP need to feel especially balanced.

2) Developer Perspective: Damage shields are too strong and abused in PvE. Player Perspective: I can see that. But they need to stay useful.
The current sets that provide damage shields are numerous. Whether reducing your health to a certain %, chance on heal/damage taken, synergy, or a simple proc, there are plenty of options to choose from--and even more that are staple abilities. Keep in mind that damage shields are half of a solution. You cannot heal yourself with damage shields. They are a buffer. Like all buffers, they exist to help accomplish something else in the meantime.

How can these things be balanced? Setup and payoff.

Mother Ciannait was buffed to give an edge to Situational Offensiveness in PvP and Preparation in PvE.

Iceheart needs an identity of Strong Initiation in PvP and Survivability in PvE.

Proposed:

Iceheart:

Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 7310 from 8600. [15% reduction instead of 30%]
Increased the damage per tick to 885 from 770. [15% increase]
Increased the cooldown to 14 seconds from 6. [2 second increase to better emphasis the intended purpose of Iceheart]
Removed the chance on critical strike requirement to proc. It now automatically procs on a critical strike.

Now let's compare it to the 5.3.2 Mother Ciannait:

Mother Ciannait:

Reduced the duration and cooldown of this item set to 6 seconds each, down from 10 seconds each.
Increased the shield value to 5000 from 3000.
This set now also restores 600 Magicka if the shield is broken.

A 2310 difference in damage shield strength in favor of Iceheart. An 8 second difference in cooldown in favor of Mother Ciannait. Two unique side effects that say define the purpose of the monster set. When you need to use Iceheart, it'll provide. If you need sustain in a fight, Mother Ciannait will provide.

My milk stool is complete.

Alienoutlaw

xaraan wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Iceheart:
Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 6050 from 8600.
Reduced the damage per tick to 500 from 770.
Increased the cooldown to 12 seconds from 6.

Developer Comment:
Iceheart has long been a powerful defensive set that has become a staple for situations where you want to sacrifice damage for survivability, especially in instances such as Maelstrom Arena and no-death Trial runs. While we love the idea of this set helping in those contexts, the value of defensive and offensive potential this set provided was leagues beyond our standards when comparing it to other sets such as Brands of the Imperium or Phoenix.

Looks like a useful, popular, set has taken not one but three hits to bring it into line with sets nobody uses, or to help make the rather useless new monster set look slightly less useless. As per the Dev comment, we were already sacrificing damage for survivability, so it feels like a triple nerf is rather overkill.

I have to say, sometimes the dev comments on changes don't do them any favors in promoting confidence in the player base that they know what they are doing.

how can you possible justify comparing a 5pc set to a 2pc monster set? by that logic ALL VMA weapons should be nerfed as they out perform most monster sets and 5pc sets???

I'm not.

not "you" lol i ment you as in ZOS

ESO_Nightingale

Eormenric wrote: »

I think the changes to both Iceheart and Mother Ciannait are welcomed, but too intense on the Iceheart side. Let's examine how the developer's are intending the usage for damage shields as well as players defining how these abilities and items should function based on their understanding of the game.

1) Player Perspective: Damage shields are prevalent and notoriously difficult to break in PvP. Developer Perspective: It's all good.
For anyone frustrated by a near-death player spamming Harness Magicka, any nerf to a damage shield is welcome. The current options to break damage shields quickly (Champion Points Shattering Blows and Medium Armor Shield Breaker) are not only exclusive to the CP System, but also Stamina users (I guess Magicka users have an easier time breaking shields naturally?). This is to say that damage shields in PvP need to feel especially balanced.

2) Developer Perspective: Damage shields are too strong and abused in PvE. Player Perspective: I can see that. But they need to stay useful.
The current sets that provide damage shields are numerous. Whether reducing your health to a certain %, chance on heal/damage taken, synergy, or a simple proc, there are plenty of options to choose from--and even more that are staple abilities. Keep in mind that damage shields are half of a solution. You cannot heal yourself with damage shields. They are a buffer. Like all buffers, they exist to help accomplish something else in the meantime.

How can these things be balanced? Setup and payoff.

Mother Ciannait was buffed to give an edge to Situational Offensiveness in PvP and Preparation in PvE.

Iceheart needs an identity of Strong Initiation in PvP and Survivability in PvE.

Proposed:

Iceheart:

Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 7310 from 8600. [15% reduction instead of 30%]
Increased the damage per tick to 885 from 770. [15% increase]
Increased the cooldown to 14 seconds from 6. [2 second increase to better emphasis the intended purpose of Iceheart]
Removed the chance on critical strike requirement to proc. It now automatically procs on a critical strike.

Now let's compare it to the 5.3.2 Mother Ciannait:

Mother Ciannait:

Reduced the duration and cooldown of this item set to 6 seconds each, down from 10 seconds each.
Increased the shield value to 5000 from 3000.
This set now also restores 600 Magicka if the shield is broken.

A 2310 difference in damage shield strength in favor of Iceheart. An 8 second difference in cooldown in favor of Mother Ciannait. Two unique side effects that say define the purpose of the monster set. When you need to use Iceheart, it'll provide. If you need sustain in a fight, Mother Ciannait will provide.

My milk stool is complete.

That cooldown alone makes it not worth using.

xaraan

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Iceheart:
Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 6050 from 8600.
Reduced the damage per tick to 500 from 770.
Increased the cooldown to 12 seconds from 6.

Developer Comment:
Iceheart has long been a powerful defensive set that has become a staple for situations where you want to sacrifice damage for survivability, especially in instances such as Maelstrom Arena and no-death Trial runs. While we love the idea of this set helping in those contexts, the value of defensive and offensive potential this set provided was leagues beyond our standards when comparing it to other sets such as Brands of the Imperium or Phoenix.

Looks like a useful, popular, set has taken not one but three hits to bring it into line with sets nobody uses, or to help make the rather useless new monster set look slightly less useless. As per the Dev comment, we were already sacrificing damage for survivability, so it feels like a triple nerf is rather overkill.

I have to say, sometimes the dev comments on changes don't do them any favors in promoting confidence in the player base that they know what they are doing.

how can you possible justify comparing a 5pc set to a 2pc monster set? by that logic ALL VMA weapons should be nerfed as they out perform most monster sets and 5pc sets???

I'm not.

not "you" lol i ment you as in ZOS

Oh lol, ok. I was honestly confused for a sec.

The_Lex

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Eormenric wrote: »

I think the changes to both Iceheart and Mother Ciannait are welcomed, but too intense on the Iceheart side. Let's examine how the developer's are intending the usage for damage shields as well as players defining how these abilities and items should function based on their understanding of the game.

1) Player Perspective: Damage shields are prevalent and notoriously difficult to break in PvP. Developer Perspective: It's all good.
For anyone frustrated by a near-death player spamming Harness Magicka, any nerf to a damage shield is welcome. The current options to break damage shields quickly (Champion Points Shattering Blows and Medium Armor Shield Breaker) are not only exclusive to the CP System, but also Stamina users (I guess Magicka users have an easier time breaking shields naturally?). This is to say that damage shields in PvP need to feel especially balanced.

2) Developer Perspective: Damage shields are too strong and abused in PvE. Player Perspective: I can see that. But they need to stay useful.
The current sets that provide damage shields are numerous. Whether reducing your health to a certain %, chance on heal/damage taken, synergy, or a simple proc, there are plenty of options to choose from--and even more that are staple abilities. Keep in mind that damage shields are half of a solution. You cannot heal yourself with damage shields. They are a buffer. Like all buffers, they exist to help accomplish something else in the meantime.

How can these things be balanced? Setup and payoff.

Mother Ciannait was buffed to give an edge to Situational Offensiveness in PvP and Preparation in PvE.

Iceheart needs an identity of Strong Initiation in PvP and Survivability in PvE.

Proposed:

Iceheart:

Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 7310 from 8600. [15% reduction instead of 30%]
Increased the damage per tick to 885 from 770. [15% increase]
Increased the cooldown to 14 seconds from 6. [2 second increase to better emphasis the intended purpose of Iceheart]
Removed the chance on critical strike requirement to proc. It now automatically procs on a critical strike.

Now let's compare it to the 5.3.2 Mother Ciannait:

Mother Ciannait:

Reduced the duration and cooldown of this item set to 6 seconds each, down from 10 seconds each.
Increased the shield value to 5000 from 3000.
This set now also restores 600 Magicka if the shield is broken.

A 2310 difference in damage shield strength in favor of Iceheart. An 8 second difference in cooldown in favor of Mother Ciannait. Two unique side effects that say define the purpose of the monster set. When you need to use Iceheart, it'll provide. If you need sustain in a fight, Mother Ciannait will provide.

My milk stool is complete.

That cooldown alone makes it not worth using.

Yep. That kind of a cool down on a DEFENSIVE set makes it unusable.

Alienoutlaw

Eormenric wrote: »

I think the changes to both Iceheart and Mother Ciannait are welcomed, but too intense on the Iceheart side. Let's examine how the developer's are intending the usage for damage shields as well as players defining how these abilities and items should function based on their understanding of the game.

1) Player Perspective: Damage shields are prevalent and notoriously difficult to break in PvP. Developer Perspective: It's all good.
For anyone frustrated by a near-death player spamming Harness Magicka, any nerf to a damage shield is welcome. The current options to break damage shields quickly (Champion Points Shattering Blows and Medium Armor Shield Breaker) are not only exclusive to the CP System, but also Stamina users (I guess Magicka users have an easier time breaking shields naturally?). This is to say that damage shields in PvP need to feel especially balanced.

2) Developer Perspective: Damage shields are too strong and abused in PvE. Player Perspective: I can see that. But they need to stay useful.
The current sets that provide damage shields are numerous. Whether reducing your health to a certain %, chance on heal/damage taken, synergy, or a simple proc, there are plenty of options to choose from--and even more that are staple abilities. Keep in mind that damage shields are half of a solution. You cannot heal yourself with damage shields. They are a buffer. Like all buffers, they exist to help accomplish something else in the meantime.

How can these things be balanced? Setup and payoff.

Mother Ciannait was buffed to give an edge to Situational Offensiveness in PvP and Preparation in PvE.

Iceheart needs an identity of Strong Initiation in PvP and Survivability in PvE.

Proposed:

Iceheart:

Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 7310 from 8600. [15% reduction instead of 30%]
Increased the damage per tick to 885 from 770. [15% increase]
Increased the cooldown to 14 seconds from 6. [2 second increase to better emphasis the intended purpose of Iceheart]
Removed the chance on critical strike requirement to proc. It now automatically procs on a critical strike.

Now let's compare it to the 5.3.2 Mother Ciannait:

Mother Ciannait:

Reduced the duration and cooldown of this item set to 6 seconds each, down from 10 seconds each.
Increased the shield value to 5000 from 3000.
This set now also restores 600 Magicka if the shield is broken.

A 2310 difference in damage shield strength in favor of Iceheart. An 8 second difference in cooldown in favor of Mother Ciannait. Two unique side effects that say define the purpose of the monster set. When you need to use Iceheart, it'll provide. If you need sustain in a fight, Mother Ciannait will provide.

My milk stool is complete.

not a single PvP player or End game trial runner has called for a nerf of this set or complained that it over performed so sorry i cant see your argument here at all

Eormenric

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

@Alienoutlaw

I think people are good about explaining over-performance in PTS. I don't think people are good about voicing over-performance in current content. Why would they if it was helpful to their own needs? We always see nerf threads, don't we? Call-outs for nerfs isn't the only reason to change something, though. If they looked at how often this set is used compared to others, they could reason that Iceheart is getting too much use. That could be what led them to the decision of nerfing it because it's been over-used metrically, setting off a red flag, which revealed it was over-performing in content. And you'd need to understand the difficulty in figuring out how to buff ALL of the other options. Bring Iceheart down a bit, open up people's imagination to see if it's worth using when or try something else. I want to be challenged to find an option that works for me. I don't want a go-to set for everything.

The_Lex

ZOS pretty much gave the middle finger to solo players, RPers, and those who are trying to learn mechanics of more difficult content by trading damage for a bit of survivability.

Alienoutlaw

Eormenric wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

i would propose if any changes be made they are thiese
Iceheart:
damage shield 8600.
Remove the damage per tick.
Increased the cooldown to 8 seconds from 6.

The_Lex

Eormenric wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

People are using it for survivability. You have to trade off damage to use it. I guarantee that no one would have said anything if they just completely removed the damage from the set.

majorana

Eormenric wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

I do not agree with the changes you proposed, the existing chance on crit strike did a good enough job to make it so that the set is not so strong in pvp, removing that and adding a long cooldown does nothing for pvp and makes the set useless in pve, an increase in cooldown to 8 sec while keeping the existing proc conditions with a slight decrease in shield size might be reasonable but a long cooldown with an uncontrollable proc just makes it useless, if the proc could be controlled (like on the new monster set) then a long cooldown would make sense.

Kadoozy

Eormenric wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

You realize nobody uses those sets because they are absolute trash right? Nobody is going to use defensive sets that have long cooldowns. We will just slap more damage on.

The cooldown change is literally the biggest issue with this change. The shield change is the second biggest issue and the damage nerf is really just uncalled for considering it does no damage anyway.

Your proposed change wouldnt be bad if you just revert the cooldown to what it currently is on live.

ESO_Nightingale

People are using it for survivability. You have to trade off damage to use it. I guarantee that no one would have said anything if they just completely removed the damage from the set.

Wrong. It's the only frost damage monster set. That would mean there is no longer any frost damage monster sets.

Edit: thanks for saving something i already commented damn draft system.

The_Lex

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Eormenric wrote: »

I think the changes to both Iceheart and Mother Ciannait are welcomed, but too intense on the Iceheart side. Let's examine how the developer's are intending the usage for damage shields as well as players defining how these abilities and items should function based on their understanding of the game.

1) Player Perspective: Damage shields are prevalent and notoriously difficult to break in PvP. Developer Perspective: It's all good.
For anyone frustrated by a near-death player spamming Harness Magicka, any nerf to a damage shield is welcome. The current options to break damage shields quickly (Champion Points Shattering Blows and Medium Armor Shield Breaker) are not only exclusive to the CP System, but also Stamina users (I guess Magicka users have an easier time breaking shields naturally?). This is to say that damage shields in PvP need to feel especially balanced.

2) Developer Perspective: Damage shields are too strong and abused in PvE. Player Perspective: I can see that. But they need to stay useful.
The current sets that provide damage shields are numerous. Whether reducing your health to a certain %, chance on heal/damage taken, synergy, or a simple proc, there are plenty of options to choose from--and even more that are staple abilities. Keep in mind that damage shields are half of a solution. You cannot heal yourself with damage shields. They are a buffer. Like all buffers, they exist to help accomplish something else in the meantime.

How can these things be balanced? Setup and payoff.

Mother Ciannait was buffed to give an edge to Situational Offensiveness in PvP and Preparation in PvE.

Iceheart needs an identity of Strong Initiation in PvP and Survivability in PvE.

Proposed:

Iceheart:

Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 7310 from 8600. [15% reduction instead of 30%]
Increased the damage per tick to 885 from 770. [15% increase]
Increased the cooldown to 14 seconds from 6. [2 second increase to better emphasis the intended purpose of Iceheart]
Removed the chance on critical strike requirement to proc. It now automatically procs on a critical strike.

Now let's compare it to the 5.3.2 Mother Ciannait:

Mother Ciannait:

Reduced the duration and cooldown of this item set to 6 seconds each, down from 10 seconds each.
Increased the shield value to 5000 from 3000.
This set now also restores 600 Magicka if the shield is broken.

A 2310 difference in damage shield strength in favor of Iceheart. An 8 second difference in cooldown in favor of Mother Ciannait. Two unique side effects that say define the purpose of the monster set. When you need to use Iceheart, it'll provide. If you need sustain in a fight, Mother Ciannait will provide.

My milk stool is complete.

That cooldown alone makes it not worth using.

The_Lex wrote: »

Eormenric wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

People are using it for survivability. You have to trade off damage to use it. I guarantee that no one would have said anything if they just completely removed the damage from the set.

Wrong. It's the only frost damage monster set. That would mean there is no longer any frost damage monster sets.

Whatever. I’m against these changes for multiple reasons. But the damage is pretty low as it is. If anything, it needed a buff for frost mage play style.

Xvorg

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

Eormenric wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale

If that's how people feel, then the 12s CD could still work. I wouldn't agree with anything lower with my proposed amounts. I think it's misguided to say "Cooldown too long. Never gonna use." Understand just how powerful of a shield Iceheart has, even with nerfs, for an offensive 2-piece. No other damage shield set is caused by dealing damage. The conditions to get those stronger damage shields (of like 11k+) are behind 30 or 50% health, which may never be reached in some situations. And the healing-related ones are a measly ~2k. For this shield to constantly proc as a "just in case" option, it's understandable why it got the nerfs it did.

i would propose if any changes be made they are thiese
Iceheart:
damage shield 8600.
Remove the damage per tick.
Increased the cooldown to 8 seconds from 6.

or keep everything (lower dmg, high CD, smaller shield) but adding the frozen status.

It's a Monster set and it is weaker than Combat Physician... even infused + torugs + shield glyph will give you a better shield just by spamming LAs

KageNin

Gotta make people go to new Dungeons somehow.

ESO_Nightingale

I'm gonna design 2 new frost damage monster sets.

TheUndeadAmulet

4k views and over 180 comments in less than 6 hours on the PTS forum. Every comment says the same thing, that the iceheart change is stupid, that it is ZOS clearly trying to make the Mother Ciannait set look more attractive to make people buy the new DLC, even though it is still bad.

ZOS, please don't be fools.

llBlack_Heartll

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm gonna design 2 new frost damage monster sets.

Please

llBlack_Heartll

Eormenric wrote: »

I think the changes to both Iceheart and Mother Ciannait are welcomed, but too intense on the Iceheart side. Let's examine how the developer's are intending the usage for damage shields as well as players defining how these abilities and items should function based on their understanding of the game.

1) Player Perspective: Damage shields are prevalent and notoriously difficult to break in PvP. Developer Perspective: It's all good.
For anyone frustrated by a near-death player spamming Harness Magicka, any nerf to a damage shield is welcome. The current options to break damage shields quickly (Champion Points Shattering Blows and Medium Armor Shield Breaker) are not only exclusive to the CP System, but also Stamina users (I guess Magicka users have an easier time breaking shields naturally?). This is to say that damage shields in PvP need to feel especially balanced.

2) Developer Perspective: Damage shields are too strong and abused in PvE. Player Perspective: I can see that. But they need to stay useful.
The current sets that provide damage shields are numerous. Whether reducing your health to a certain %, chance on heal/damage taken, synergy, or a simple proc, there are plenty of options to choose from--and even more that are staple abilities. Keep in mind that damage shields are half of a solution. You cannot heal yourself with damage shields. They are a buffer. Like all buffers, they exist to help accomplish something else in the meantime.

How can these things be balanced? Setup and payoff.

Mother Ciannait was buffed to give an edge to Situational Offensiveness in PvP and Preparation in PvE.

Iceheart needs an identity of Strong Initiation in PvP and Survivability in PvE.

Proposed:

Iceheart:

Reduced the damage shield this set provides to 7310 from 8600. [15% reduction instead of 30%]
Increased the damage per tick to 885 from 770. [15% increase]
Increased the cooldown to 14 seconds from 6. [2 second increase to better emphasis the intended purpose of Iceheart]
Removed the chance on critical strike requirement to proc. It now automatically procs on a critical strike.

Now let's compare it to the 5.3.2 Mother Ciannait:

Mother Ciannait:

Reduced the duration and cooldown of this item set to 6 seconds each, down from 10 seconds each.
Increased the shield value to 5000 from 3000.
This set now also restores 600 Magicka if the shield is broken.

A 2310 difference in damage shield strength in favor of Iceheart. An 8 second difference in cooldown in favor of Mother Ciannait. Two unique side effects that say define the purpose of the monster set. When you need to use Iceheart, it'll provide. If you need sustain in a fight, Mother Ciannait will provide.

My milk stool is complete.

Your proposed changes are not good at all.
It’s not even a slight nerf, it’s completely destroying a set.

karekiz

Figured they wanted to go this way back when Phoenix (RIP) was changed to "Give credit to no - death"

The idea of having a set be a pseudo BIS under extreme circumstances is anti-standardization. We must all conform to <Insert increase stat here> with different colors.

The idea should be simple. As players progress to focus on less getting a clear, and more getting a clear as fast as possible then defense sets lose value. This should shift what players wear and focus on. This however isn't the case as this basically targets progression teams while completely ignoring higher end teams who already focus on burning encounters rather than learning them at this point.

ccfeeling

IH is pure defensive set, no other benifits, as a defensive set, you set it long cool down, you guys are insane
You guys also nerf the dmgs rofl, who freaking cares the oringinal IH dmgs?
Lowest dmg, normal shield size, long cool down, why dont just removeed it from the game?

jecks33

At least give us back the old magic shields, pre-murkmire!!

pod88kk

The nerf to iceheart is just another hit to mid tier progression teams trying to get through content and learn mechanics.

It doesn't affect the casual "dragon killers" as Gilliam calls them and it certainly won't affect the end game teams. Zos are hitting the people who are loyally sticking with the game and who probably spend the most money on it.