Why nerf Iceheart?

Shantu

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

For those who don't know, Joy Division is/was a class representative. He knows what the *** he is talking about.

Form this, and other posts, I really like the way you think. ZOS should hire you into a position that controls the entertainment value of their game. I relate to your perspectives far more than the mumbo-jumbo spilling from the narrow minds of this combat team and, by inference, the creative management in general. This "by the numbers" balancing act has resulted in some truly unfortunate decisions. The nerfs to IceHeart aren't so much about changing a single set, but more representative of the continuing ignorance this company appears to have towards the enjoyment the majority of it's players find in the game. And come on...how dumb is that?

xWarbrain

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

I don't like the nerf, but to be fair level ~250cp should have trouble with Vet Banished Cells 2. I don't think I knew what a vet dungeon was at that stage, let alone have the ability to get through it. They don't need Iceheart to beat it, they need to learn mechanics and how to survive and play their role in a dungeon. They were more than likely not using the right skills or 5 piece sets either. They probably haven't heard of Iceheart let alone know to use it for some defense.

My point is, they could have buffed Iceheart with a 10k shield and your Banished Cells 2 run would have ended the same as it did. The issue with your Banished Cells 2 run was that they're allowed in Vet dungeons in the first place. There should be a higher threshold for allowing players into Vet content. It has nothing to do with Zos nerfing things.

SidraWillowsky

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

I love you.

virtus753

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

End-game community asking for a challenge does not even bother with Iceheart. Have you seen the vCR+3 Gryphon Heart clear with 1 portal phase only? That is very impressive self-imbibed challenge and guess what? 12 trial members, 0 Icehearts used.

@Olupajmibanan 0 Ice hearts you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TESXzOXvpL4

@Nifty2g You heard me, 0 Icehearts I say -
Log: https://www.esologs.com/reports/CbjDvrKxpNm7YnQT#fight=65&type=summary

Youtube: https://youtu.be/VEghefi7sMc

Watch the video i linked you. Shows the use of ice heart in your conditions you said

All you’re proving is that *some* people use Iceheart in those conditions.

That in no way contradicts the argument that if you want the highest challenge possible in that particular situation, you don’t use Iceheart. It can be done, as the other video and log proves.

Which all just further reinforces the point that a 40% hit to Iceheart is making that often steep grade between “solid player” and “Hodor elite” more and more of a cliff.

Nifty2g

virtus753 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

End-game community asking for a challenge does not even bother with Iceheart. Have you seen the vCR+3 Gryphon Heart clear with 1 portal phase only? That is very impressive self-imbibed challenge and guess what? 12 trial members, 0 Icehearts used.

@Olupajmibanan 0 Ice hearts you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TESXzOXvpL4

@Nifty2g You heard me, 0 Icehearts I say -
Log: https://www.esologs.com/reports/CbjDvrKxpNm7YnQT#fight=65&type=summary

Youtube: https://youtu.be/VEghefi7sMc

Watch the video i linked you. Shows the use of ice heart in your conditions you said

All you’re proving is that *some* people use Iceheart in those conditions.

That in no way contradicts the argument that if you want the highest challenge possible in that particular situation, you don’t use Iceheart. It can be done, as the other video and log proves.

Which all just further reinforces the point that a 40% hit to Iceheart is making that often steep grade between “solid player” and “Hodor elite” more and more of a cliff.

I'm proving it's used among all playstyles. Honestly I don't really care but I'm glad it got nerfed and by the amount of people literally crying about it, it deserved it

Runefang

The absolute main issue with the nerf is that it’s no longer viable as a good defensive monster helm. A 5k shield is simply too small compared to healing helms or other damage reduction defensive helms.

Now everybody looking to min/max will switch to the next best thing, rather than thinking “Should I keep IH or switch to Chudan or maybe Bloodspawn?”. It’s nerfed too hard.

It’s typical ZOS sledgehammer approach to balance.

Moloch1514

Of course Iceheart helm is on the Golden Vendor tonight. Well played ZOS.

Stevie6

Runefang wrote: »

The absolute main issue with the nerf is that it’s no longer viable as a good defensive monster helm. A 5k shield is simply too small compared to healing helms or other damage reduction defensive helms.

Now everybody looking to min/max will switch to the next best thing, rather than thinking “Should I keep IH or switch to Chudan or maybe Bloodspawn?”. It’s nerfed too hard.

It’s typical ZOS sledgehammer approach to balance.

Yes, I agree

Those that are not elite players will try other sets and the devs will nerf those as well. Bye, bye BS, Chundan, etc. They will be on the chopping block as well as any other set that is used too often by Ave joe player. Elder Scrolls Nerfbat Online. The devs probably play with the best equipment in game, know the all of the dungeon mechanics, and decide that only a small percentage of players will ever have said equipment. If the number of people exceed the percentage, then the nerfbat is brought out and another gap in the player base develops.

The elite players that put YouTube videos up are doing a disservice to the average joe/casual player base. I think they mean well, but the average joe/casual player will never ever be in the end game. I have a good connection to the Dallas, TX area of about 31ms. I log into the server and it stays around 90 tp 100 ms. I start doing content or dungeons it hits 400ms to 15,000ms. Why? I’m damn lucky to get anywhere from 8k to 21k dps on a single target. Btw I do have several target dummies and it doesn’t do any good to practice because of the lag.

So being one of the lagged out lucky ones, what do I do or any one with the same problem do? I don’t have an answer, but I can say that IH did make life easier just doing regular basic storyline content. I could never do vma with the lag. I would never get a clean rotation after smashing the keys a hundred times just to get the skill to register. There are a lot of good players out there in the same boat. You can only go so far on the “git gud” and the server isn’t keeping up with the demand. I canceled my sub not because of IH, but because of the continual degradation of the “fun factor”.

ZOS really needs to look at / replace their server hardware, router, cables, etc....something isn’t right. My guess is they are giving priority to the fastest connections..just a guess. I would really like to see the server logs In each zone to see where “the lag” is manifesting. That means looking at everybody’s connections going to and from ea zone and especially in dungeons where the greatest lag can occur. Heh like that will ever happen.

Rolandaxx

Nifty2g wrote: »

I don't really care but I'm glad

95% of the thread doesn't care either but we're upset. And we keep posting to show our indifference.

BalticBlues

pklemming wrote: »

they don't seem to really give a damn about disabled people. [...] We have a significant portion of our guild who are also disabled and/or newer players. We help them to access content they may not otherwise be able to do and give them a confidence to group with people without feeling as though they are being a burden on the group. We go through and teach tactics and mechanics and part of that was making use of iceheart so they are actually alive to complete mechanics, rather than just being dead as we drag them through content.

QFT - ZOS, please leave Iceheart as is for people who need "a little help from their friendly sets"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C58ttB2-Qg

Banana

I've taken the hint and switched to Grothdarr

Kelces

So much ill-will going around among the DPS crowd...

What boggles my mind though is, that some people/guilds apparently don't want to be able to potentially recruit more new players into their progress rosters earlier by having them get certain powerful sets quicker.

And I thought such people were logical and are extremely pragmatic...
But maybe I'm wrong and all those asking for nerfs are never in well organized guilds.

satanio

Nifty2g wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

End-game community asking for a challenge does not even bother with Iceheart. Have you seen the vCR+3 Gryphon Heart clear with 1 portal phase only? That is very impressive self-imbibed challenge and guess what? 12 trial members, 0 Icehearts used.

@Olupajmibanan 0 Ice hearts you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TESXzOXvpL4

@Nifty2g You heard me, 0 Icehearts I say -
Log: https://www.esologs.com/reports/CbjDvrKxpNm7YnQT#fight=65&type=summary

Youtube: https://youtu.be/VEghefi7sMc

Watch the video i linked you. Shows the use of ice heart in your conditions you said

All you’re proving is that *some* people use Iceheart in those conditions.

That in no way contradicts the argument that if you want the highest challenge possible in that particular situation, you don’t use Iceheart. It can be done, as the other video and log proves.

Which all just further reinforces the point that a 40% hit to Iceheart is making that often steep grade between “solid player” and “Hodor elite” more and more of a cliff.

I'm proving it's used among all playstyles. Honestly I don't really care but I'm glad it got nerfed and by the amount of people literally crying about it, it deserved it

In your logic, people are rioting - That means that the thing they are rioting against is deserved.
Wtf xD.

Olupajmibanan

satanio wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

End-game community asking for a challenge does not even bother with Iceheart. Have you seen the vCR+3 Gryphon Heart clear with 1 portal phase only? That is very impressive self-imbibed challenge and guess what? 12 trial members, 0 Icehearts used.

@Olupajmibanan 0 Ice hearts you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TESXzOXvpL4

@Nifty2g You heard me, 0 Icehearts I say -
Log: https://www.esologs.com/reports/CbjDvrKxpNm7YnQT#fight=65&type=summary

Youtube: https://youtu.be/VEghefi7sMc

Watch the video i linked you. Shows the use of ice heart in your conditions you said

All you’re proving is that *some* people use Iceheart in those conditions.

That in no way contradicts the argument that if you want the highest challenge possible in that particular situation, you don’t use Iceheart. It can be done, as the other video and log proves.

Which all just further reinforces the point that a 40% hit to Iceheart is making that often steep grade between “solid player” and “Hodor elite” more and more of a cliff.

I'm proving it's used among all playstyles. Honestly I don't really care but I'm glad it got nerfed and by the amount of people literally crying about it, it deserved it

In your logic, people are rioting - That means that the thing they are rioting against is deserved.
Wtf xD.

A government raises taxes to 50% from 19%. Than a public riot breaks out. And government's answer will just be: "Looking at all of you rioting here, taxes were really set too low before. The change is deserved".

Casual players, experienced players, even class reps expressed their deep disagreement with the change. But a bunch of ZoS's white knights will still keep bothering us here. But we shouldn't hate them, everybody must make money somehow. Maybe even Nifty and Juhasow disagree with the change, but have hungry children at home and get paid well for this. Of course they can't admit it, that's part of the contract.

Dusk_Coven

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge

Even if we suppose that somehow, the Iceheart nerf is related to keeping achievements hard, this is a really dubious goal.
Can ZOS really hope to maintain a static level of difficulty when they keep adding combat content such as new classes and new gear?

But let's further suppose that no matter what they add to the game, they want some achievements to be hard. Say, only 0.5% are allowed to complete AchievementXYZ. And further suppose that they can magically subtract all the people who paid for carries from that number.

The way to do that is NOT to alter the content they added -- the classes, skills, sets, gear, etcetera -- especially when it's already settled into the system.
Why? Because when you alter those types of content, there is an effect on THE REST OF THE GAME that is pretty much guaranteed to have an unintended consequence.
The achievement you want to tweak is specific to one content. Those items are part of the ecology of all relevant content in the game.
Once something has gone into the system and the system is stable -- for, say, 4 YEARS -- going about the change in this way is really just asking for problems with trickle-down effects.

Instead, you ISOLATE the change you want and tweak it. In this case, AchievementXYZ. You make that specific content harder to achieve so that you can be happy with your tiny percentile of people who can carry others wanting to buy it. Especially when not everyone is an initial Elsweyr release stamina Necromancer using the item you are trying to adjust.

Even then you have to look at WHY more and more people are getting that achievement beyond initial targets. What new circumstance entered the system to change the numbers? The whole idea of achievements as some kind of measuring stick or adjustment criteria really has too many variables for blame to be cast on any one thing.
And therefore bringing it up is really useless.

boomcat

Stevie6 wrote: »

boomcat wrote: »

so because pve community cant "solo" content anymore with a nerfed iceheart, all gonna unsub? lol git gud. if a new/avg player can rely on a set to make them clear hard content the set is OP. nothing more to it..

It’s not just soloing content but basic gameplay in general. “Git gud” it out for a lot of older / handicapped players. IH was a help just to get thru some of the basic content. “Git gud” sounds like it’s coming from a twelve year old instead of a mature adult.

well i have never used iceheart, and im still doing VMA on a magsorc and magplar. so yes, its a l2p issue if a player needs to rely on a monster set to get trough.

Valdek

Guys, Iceheart helm is on sale at the golden vendor NOW! Buy yours before it's too late. xD

Juhasow

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

So we should balance the game around 250 CP players that have no clue what they're doing and their failures comes mostly from their lack of skill and understanding the game ? And for the record Iceheart atm for those people is stronger then for that 1% of elite players and it provides more defense for casual players then it does for "elite". Problem is that "casual players" is not constant group , there are people that no matter how strong defense You'll give to them they'll still fail to accomplish certain goals because they are simply not ready for the content yet and they have huge lacks in understanding how game works. You want to balance set that is used in PvE content around people that are not yet capable to reliably participate in it ? It's obvious that ZoS's idea to nerf Iceheart was not coming purely from the fact that 1% of elite players could clear stuff easier. Iceheart is commonly used everywhere. I would assume that most of players that plays magicka characters have it and uses it and even some people that have stamina characters also have it in their inventory. It helps lot of people to achieve lot of things it's not just limited to 1% of elite players. And the amount of help it provides is simply too high atm doesnt matter what group You're looking at. I agree that ZoS's nerf is too harsh but lets not try to deny reality. Some nerf was needed because in its current state Iceheart is simply overperforming.

Not ready? It's Banished Cells II! We not talking Sunspire no death run here.

Something is seriously out of whack if I'm just looking to do one of the easiest dungeons in the game and I get three random players from the ESO community and they can;t hack it. That what happens when the game is catered to the standards of the 1%, the game becomes too difficult for precisely the people who are struggling as it is. Banished Cells II [!] is beyond their capability. ZoS should not be balancing the game according to how you or I or other people who have literally put thousands of hours into the game. That's just crazy.

So, yes, the game would be a a lot more fun and interesting and, importantly, suited for the vast majority of the population if the word "overperforming" was purged from ZOS's vocabulary and their balance changes were catered to somewhere between "I just bought the game" and Hodor. It's ridiculous that anything is cited for the amount of help it is providing is simply too high when the Raid Notifier add-on exists.

If it were obvious, then Ice-Heart's nerf would have 1) been in the patch-notes on week 1 before Alcast and the rest of the ESO community made fun of the new DLC set and 2) the amount of people who in this thread saying, "yeah, it was a carry set" would have been far more than the few end-game players who who have expressed that sentiment.

Yes , Banished Cells II. You make it like non DLC vet dungeons should be cleared by everyone naked and without CPs but in reality this is still part of veteran content and requires some bare minimum of skill and knowledge about the game which many players especially low CP players don't have. Banished cells II is not an excuse here.

Yes something is out of whack. Your perception of the game. You think that because vet BC II is easy for You then it has to be that way for everyone else. In reality it isnt because "easy" is subjective term and there is still some difficulty level for every piece of group content in the game and different players will find different difficulty levels easy or hard. If You get 3 random players with low CP , without gear or preparaton then You will struggle through any veteran content and there is nothing wrong in that. Actually it would be wierd and wrong if You would get 3 random players with low CP , random green gear and without any knowledge about the game and You would still go through vet content like through butter without even explaining them what to do. Also I dont think that 3 random players You had in Your group had issues with clearing content because "game caters to standards of 1%". I would say that vet non DLC dungeons caters to majority of casual players but those You had were way below that level. You cant expect that if someone have 250 CP he instantly qualifies to be called "average level player". What next , we'llqualify everyone who started game 1 hour ago as average level player ? If there is some average line that means there will be people underneath and above that line.

I actually don't think game would be that much better if ZoS would let everything that overperforms to run rampant without any changes. That is actually best way to kill off the game in longer term. Dont get me wrong I don't like ZoS's sledgehammer approach but I also wouldn't like oposite. I actually think game is balanced inbetween those 2 standards You've mentioned. And tha is why we're getting balance changes. ZoS is just way too slow with buffing stuff that underperforms but that doesn't means nerfs are not needed when things overperform.

Let's face the reality. If something is really a "carry set" then 99% of people using it will stay quiet or at best will call it decent especially if that set is used purely in PvE so oposite side can't whine because opposite side are PvE mobs. People don't like to be objective when something greatly benefits them. And fact that ZoS overlooked Iceheart until 2nd week of PTS doesn't make that set weaker on live.

Stevie6

boomcat wrote: »

Stevie6 wrote: »

boomcat wrote: »

so because pve community cant "solo" content anymore with a nerfed iceheart, all gonna unsub? lol git gud. if a new/avg player can rely on a set to make them clear hard content the set is OP. nothing more to it..

It’s not just soloing content but basic gameplay in general. “Git gud” it out for a lot of older / handicapped / disabled players.. IH was a help just to get thru some of the basic content. “Git gud” sounds like it’s coming from a twelve year old instead of a mature adult.

well i have never used iceheart, and im still doing VMA on a magsorc and magplar. so yes, its a l2p issue if a player needs to rely on a monster set to get trough.

It’s not a l2p issue when you are hitting the keys and nothing happens..skills don’t fire off. Being in the over fifty group with several health issues isn’t exactly what I wanted but does contribute with my ability to get involved with others online. I rely on several monster sets just to get thru basic game play. IH is just one of them. I wish I had the dexterity of a normal person. It would make life a lot easier but just to say it is “ a l2p issue” isn’t on the radar for this person. Get good and learn to play doesn’t exist for me personally. However, just having “ fun “ is. Makes my day a lot happier. 😟

Joy_Division

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

So we should balance the game around 250 CP players that have no clue what they're doing and their failures comes mostly from their lack of skill and understanding the game ? And for the record Iceheart atm for those people is stronger then for that 1% of elite players and it provides more defense for casual players then it does for "elite". Problem is that "casual players" is not constant group , there are people that no matter how strong defense You'll give to them they'll still fail to accomplish certain goals because they are simply not ready for the content yet and they have huge lacks in understanding how game works. You want to balance set that is used in PvE content around people that are not yet capable to reliably participate in it ? It's obvious that ZoS's idea to nerf Iceheart was not coming purely from the fact that 1% of elite players could clear stuff easier. Iceheart is commonly used everywhere. I would assume that most of players that plays magicka characters have it and uses it and even some people that have stamina characters also have it in their inventory. It helps lot of people to achieve lot of things it's not just limited to 1% of elite players. And the amount of help it provides is simply too high atm doesnt matter what group You're looking at. I agree that ZoS's nerf is too harsh but lets not try to deny reality. Some nerf was needed because in its current state Iceheart is simply overperforming.

Not ready? It's Banished Cells II! We not talking Sunspire no death run here.

Something is seriously out of whack if I'm just looking to do one of the easiest dungeons in the game and I get three random players from the ESO community and they can;t hack it. That what happens when the game is catered to the standards of the 1%, the game becomes too difficult for precisely the people who are struggling as it is. Banished Cells II [!] is beyond their capability. ZoS should not be balancing the game according to how you or I or other people who have literally put thousands of hours into the game. That's just crazy.

So, yes, the game would be a a lot more fun and interesting and, importantly, suited for the vast majority of the population if the word "overperforming" was purged from ZOS's vocabulary and their balance changes were catered to somewhere between "I just bought the game" and Hodor. It's ridiculous that anything is cited for the amount of help it is providing is simply too high when the Raid Notifier add-on exists.

If it were obvious, then Ice-Heart's nerf would have 1) been in the patch-notes on week 1 before Alcast and the rest of the ESO community made fun of the new DLC set and 2) the amount of people who in this thread saying, "yeah, it was a carry set" would have been far more than the few end-game players who who have expressed that sentiment.

Yes , Banished Cells II. You make it like non DLC vet dungeons should be cleared by everyone naked and without CPs but in reality this is still part of veteran content and requires some bare minimum of skill and knowledge about the game which many players especially low CP players don't have. Banished cells II is not an excuse here.

Yes something is out of whack. Your perception of the game. You think that because vet BC II is easy for You then it has to be that way for everyone else. In reality it isnt because "easy" is subjective term and there is still some difficulty level for every piece of group content in the game and different players will find different difficulty levels easy or hard. If You get 3 random players with low CP , without gear or preparaton then You will struggle through any veteran content and there is nothing wrong in that. Actually it would be wierd and wrong if You would get 3 random players with low CP , random green gear and without any knowledge about the game and You would still go through vet content like through butter without even explaining them what to do. Also I dont think that 3 random players You had in Your group had issues with clearing content because "game caters to standards of 1%". I would say that vet non DLC dungeons caters to majority of casual players but those You had were way below that level. You cant expect that if someone have 250 CP he instantly qualifies to be called "average level player". What next , we'llqualify everyone who started game 1 hour ago as average level player ? If there is some average line that means there will be people underneath and above that line.

I actually don't think game would be that much better if ZoS would let everything that overperforms to run rampant without any changes. That is actually best way to kill off the game in longer term. Dont get me wrong I don't like ZoS's sledgehammer approach but I also wouldn't like oposite. I actually think game is balanced inbetween those 2 standards You've mentioned. And tha is why we're getting balance changes. ZoS is just way too slow with buffing stuff that underperforms but that doesn't means nerfs are not needed when things overperform.

Let's face the reality. If something is really a "carry set" then 99% of people using it will stay quiet or at best will call it decent especially if that set is used purely in PvE so oposite side can't whine because opposite side are PvE mobs. People don't like to be objective when something greatly benefits them. And fact that ZoS overlooked Iceheart until 2nd week of PTS doesn't make that set weaker on live.

I did not say everyone should be able to clear content naked and without CP and you know it. Why are you so desperate to nerf this set that you have to make a strawman? You are entitled to you own opinion, but do not put words in my mouth. I said something is out of whack if 3 250 CP players - which isnt neophyte new by the way - cant even get past the 4th boss. I didn;t say it should be easy either. A last refuge of those who are so desperate because they know an argument is lost: just put words in the mouth of their opponent.

You want to know what happened the first time I tried to PuG this dungeon? I join the group, they're at the Daedroth boss and two suddenly leave the group. The only one of the original group says, they left because the the group DPS was low and it was too frustrating. My experience wasn't anomalous. It's the reason why I don;t PuG if I can help it because it happens too often.

Your opinion of the ESO community is certainly low isn't it? 99% of us will stay quiet or be disingenuous just to make sure ZOS doesn't nerf something that benefits us (and randoms play with "random green gear and without any knowledge about the game"). Well, aren;t we subjective pisspoor players wearing random green gear fortunate that the other 1% exist to guide us to the reality we either can;t or won;t see for ourselves?

Our objections here could not be possibly more about the greater picture of the process in which ZOS updates their game couldn't it? That the sudden nerf to Iceheart is merely representative of a pattern that has existed for 5+ years that we are sick and tired of? That ZOS is so concerned about a stupid helmet that they'll get off their butts to implement a nerf, yet go years [!] without addressing concerns constantly brought up such as long persisting bugs, class identity, a match making system for BGs, etc. It's a terrible optic that inspires no confidence for the future vision of this game. I have no idea what my character will be in six months, but I know it will still be stuck in combat, it will continue to lose class identity, I'll have to change my build because something got nerfed (as opposed to another choice becoming viable via buffs), and the game will be relatively more difficult for the vast majority of ESO players.

Kesstryl

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

I hope the Devs listen to this guy. This post needs to be brought to them.

Dusk_Coven

boomcat wrote: »

well i have never used iceheart, and im still doing VMA on a magsorc and magplar. so yes, its a l2p issue if a player needs to rely on a monster set to get trough.

Oh, so you farm vMA with magsorc and magplar? With what skills on your bar?
We should definitely nerf magicka, those two classes, and the main skills you have on your skillbar at the time.
And if good players are using magsorc and magplar… imagine the power they have for mediocre players!
Obviously they are making vMA too easy.
And if vMA is too easy, obviously the answer is to nerf everything else instead of buffing vMA.

But wait, that'd be too much at once. We need to be sneaky about this to avoid uproar.
Let's just nerf templars first.

<some time and many nerfs to a broad variety of content later>

Oh, people can't get through vMA? Too bad. Git gud.

Arguments involving something being used in very hard content and therefore requiring a nerf because it's then obviously overtuned in easier content... completely wrongheaded thinking.

[Deleted User]

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

Kalante

Kesstryl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

I hope the Devs listen to this guy. This post needs to be brought to them.

ice heart is not even an issue in PVP so this whole blame the pvp community is just baseless nonsense. The reason they nerfed it is because all the casuals in PVE rely too heavily on it, I mean this thread has 600+ commets QQ'ing that their monster set has been nerfed. I have never such reaction to a nerf. Where were you guys when they butchered the nightblade from minor beserker, major fracture on their spammable, removed stun from incap,and ultimate delays that hit the nigtblade the hardest, basically their entire burst utility got nullified. Ice heart gets 700+ comments.

Seems legit.

that_goat

It's almost like they should carefully consider extreme sweeping changes to sets that impact a wide swath of the playerbase. Weather or not the change is necessary is up for debate but the implementation of this change clearly shows that balancing is no longer driven by metrics and data but more likely just based on someone's gut feeling on how something fits into ~*~*tHe ViSiOn*~*~ for ESO.

Kesstryl

Kalante wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I needed undaunted so I ran with a PuG group in Banished Cells 2. This is Banished Cells 2. It's been in the game at Launch. It's one of the easy dungeons. It should not be an issue at all.

I'm healing. I've got 3 players who are in the 250 CP range so they've at least logged in a few times and have at least a basic understanding of the game.

The first trash pull takes about 5 times longer than I am used to. OK, it's Banished Cells, whatever.

First boss comes and we're in the room long enough to burn my pizza in the oven. I look down at the DPS meter. I, as the healer, am pulling over 50% of the DPS in the group and I'm not even wearing DPS gear and I actually have to heal them. I resign myself that I'm going to be in that Dungeon for a long time because I'm not the jerk that kicks people for low DPS or bails on new players. I'm going to try and help them.

Anyone who knows that dungeon can predict what happens on the last boss - they have zero shot. The tank can't hold taunt, they don;t have the DPS to either burn the boss or the deadroths. One disconnects, or perhaps just logged off because after 3 wipes he probably knew the group had zero shot. Whatever. I beg my PvP friend who never does PvE content; he's my only contact online and at least I know he won't die. It's painful, but after 3 more tries, Rilis finally dies - only because me and my PvP friend know not how to die and eventually it;s just us alive. The PuG run is over. And it's probably going to be another 6 months before I even think of doing another because the power gap between experienced and inexperienced players is so ridiculously out of whack.

So what's my point here?

ZOS pays way too much attention to elite end-game PvE players and PvP complainers and "balances" the game to their standards rather than the vast majority of the community.

Really, you're going to nerf ice-Heart when the 3 people who I randomly get into a group with me who have 250 CPs can;t even hack Banished Cells 2? Are you nuts? They need a buff to Ice-Heart, not a nerf. I've said it 10 times in this thread and I'll say it 11th: the people who are claiming this set is a "carry" or a "crutch" are all expert players and can make any set in the game look like a carry because they can pull 80K DPS in their sleep. Why are they being catered to? It makes zero sense. Is the sanctity of some elitist achievement 99.5% of the community will never smell somehow more important than the experience of those 99.5%?

And another thing. Every time PvPers' whine because they die and convince the devs to nerf, water-down, and outright make certain things useless, it makes the experience of the many people like the 3 in my group that much more miserable because now they're stuck trying to complete content with over-nerfed skills, which we completed long ago with much more potent abilities. How is that remotely fair at all?

What would those 3 players have done if they didn;t get me and instead got some other 250 CP healer? They probably would have not even gotten past Keeper Imiril, the one who summons the clannfears. Another advantage we old timers had was we used to cheese that boss by pulling her behind the boxes so she wouldnt summon the adds. We cheesed these dungeons and still do - every semi-serious and even non-serious PvE player out there runs the raid notifier add-on that holds their hand through this content FAR more than the ice-heart set. And somehow Ice-Heart is the issue? For those people that don;t know, this add-on literally gives players warning in advance of every single threatening PvE mechanic down to the exact second when it fires. People use that add-on and claim it's Ice-heart that's the carry? LOL. ZOS, if you want to maintain the sanctity of those achievements and the end-game community needs a little challenge, how about you make it so if that add on is run, then people don;t get the achievement. I;m guessing people wouldn't want Ice heart nerfed if that were the case.

I hope the Devs listen to this guy. This post needs to be brought to them.

ice heart is not even an issue in PVP so this whole blame the pvp community is just baseless nonsense. The reason they nerfed it is because all the casuals in PVE rely too heavily on it, I mean this thread has 600+ commets QQ'ing that their monster set has been nerfed. I have never such reaction to a nerf. Where were you guys when they butchered the nightblade from minor beserker, major fracture on their spammable, removed stun from incap,and ultimate delays that hit the nigtblade the hardest, basically their entire burst utility got nullified. Ice heart gets 700+ comments.

Seems legit.

I have been outspoken against most of the nerfs this past year, and I am one of those many players who cancelled their sub over it several months ago. You are railing against your own ally.

Xvorg

Nifty2g wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

End-game community asking for a challenge does not even bother with Iceheart. Have you seen the vCR+3 Gryphon Heart clear with 1 portal phase only? That is very impressive self-imbibed challenge and guess what? 12 trial members, 0 Icehearts used.

@Olupajmibanan 0 Ice hearts you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TESXzOXvpL4

@Nifty2g You heard me, 0 Icehearts I say -
Log: https://www.esologs.com/reports/CbjDvrKxpNm7YnQT#fight=65&type=summary

Youtube: https://youtu.be/VEghefi7sMc

Watch the video i linked you. Shows the use of ice heart in your conditions you said

All you’re proving is that *some* people use Iceheart in those conditions.

That in no way contradicts the argument that if you want the highest challenge possible in that particular situation, you don’t use Iceheart. It can be done, as the other video and log proves.

Which all just further reinforces the point that a 40% hit to Iceheart is making that often steep grade between “solid player” and “Hodor elite” more and more of a cliff.

I'm proving it's used among all playstyles. Honestly I don't really care but I'm glad it got nerfed and by the amount of people literally crying about it, it deserved it

The crying is beyond the nerf. It has to do with how ZoS treats its customers.

Some time ago they promised to raise the floor and lower the ceilling, now suddenly the raise the ceilling again without preparing the player base. Do you expect that most of the people playing this is gonna be happy after that?

If the problem is that people is completing the content faster than they expected, well, it is their fault in the first place. We told them about that but they didn't gave a damn. Now they realize it should be addressed, but they address it in the worst way possible. It would have been much better changing IH proc conditions,for example crits on DD attacks, than nerfing the whole set. In that case the user just had to adapt his playing style to the new rules, instead of keeping the rules but making the set underwhelming as it is now.

ESO_Nightingale

Joosef_Kivikilpi

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Saw the nerf to Iceheart, laughed , cried, got ticked, and immediately thought of you Nightingale. I use Iceheart religiously and it is the ONLY Ice theme monster set in game and they neuter after so long because they can't have a set that feels good. And with all the developer notes of their vision with Iceheart, it really makes me lose further confidence with the team. They keep trying to explain it as a damage set.... Lolz in a real situation, you're losing that shield after 1-2 seconds, this maybe doing two ticks of a measly 870 damage/sec... Maybe. I literally feel like I have to share my head on the desk when I hear that reasoning behind their nerfs.

The real reason that Iceheart was sick awesome and thematically dope set that worked well and wasn't op:

1) Run Iceheart as a Frost Mage to look cool and be a bit more defensive on account of having to slot more into critical chance to aquire.

2) Defensive barrier for both magic and stamina users for some content and overland.

3) The ICE damage is meant to have the slight chance of procing chilled and minor maim in enemies who get too close, reducing damage by 15%, thus overall increasing the effectiveness and duration and damage mitigation of the shield to protect you. The monster set is NOTHING about being a "DPS set" - the slight damage is just extra flavor which also adds the ability to proc minor main on enemies who get closer.

Sorry... I strongly feel that nobody thinks when Iceheart shield procs, "hey, let me go charge on now to the bus, because I'm super protected now!" ... Ugh, the ideas explained by the development for the nerfs to Iceheart, and any other nerf, are really missing the mark of game mechanics and how things actually happen in game. I feel for you, Nightingale and Frost community. They have absolutely killed off my niche Elementalist build over the past year (Embershield, Overwhelming Surge, and Iceheart with Lightning Staff) and keep killing my reasons to play and have fun as a theory crafter with all the crushing changes. I haven't been on for over three weeks because when I think about logging on, it feels more burdening than an actual job now. It is no longer something fun I enjoy due to what their development team is doing with the rollercoaster of needless changes.

PS- I loved your Hailstorm monster set idea, bro.

ESO_Nightingale

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Saw the nerf to Iceheart, laughed , cried, got ticked, and immediately thought of you Nightingale. I use Iceheart religiously and it is the ONLY Ice theme monster set in game and they neuter after so long because they can't have a set that feels good. And with all the developer notes of their vision with Iceheart, it really makes me lose further confidence with the team. They keep trying to explain it as a damage set.... Lolz in a real situation, you're losing that shield after 1-2 seconds, this maybe doing two ticks of a measly 870 damage/sec... Maybe. I literally feel like I have to share my head on the desk when I hear that reasoning behind their nerfs.

The real reason that Iceheart was sick awesome and thematically dope set that worked well and wasn't op:

1) Run Iceheart as a Frost Mage to look cool and be a bit more defensive on account of having to slot more into critical chance to aquire.

2) Defensive barrier for both magic and stamina users for some content and overland.

3) The ICE damage is meant to have the slight chance of procing chilled and minor maim in enemies who get too close, reducing damage by 15%, thus overall increasing the effectiveness and duration and damage mitigation of the shield to protect you. The monster set is NOTHING about being a "DPS set" - the slight damage is just extra flavor which also adds the ability to proc minor main on enemies who get closer.

Sorry... I strongly feel that nobody thinks when Iceheart shield procs, "hey, let me go charge on now to the bus, because I'm super protected now!" ... Ugh, the ideas explained by the development for the nerfs to Iceheart, and any other nerf, are really missing the mark of game mechanics and how things actually happen in game. I feel for you, Nightingale and Frost community. They have absolutely killed off my niche Elementalist build over the past year (Embershield, Overwhelming Surge, and Iceheart with Lightning Staff) and keep killing my reasons to play and have fun as a theory crafter with all the crushing changes. I haven't been on for over three weeks because when I think about logging on, it feels more burdening than an actual job now. It is no longer something fun I enjoy due to what their development team is doing with the rollercoaster of needless changes.

PS- I loved your Hailstorm monster set idea, bro.

We may get a new monster helmet later this year. It's definitely time for it. I just hope the next one is more useful than Iceheart was when relating to damage. Hailthrash was just a quick idea. But an ice ilambris monster helm with 1pc spell crit would be pretty awesome. I think the Throat of the World will be coming as Dungeon DLC in Q3. maybe then we will get the frost damage helm we want. Iceheart was too hybrid to be a full on damage set anyway, good for solo and for new players but not really for a normal dps build.

Half of the criticism wasn't really about iceheart. It was about the philosophy like xyvorg basically said. Removing a set that helped(but didn't enable) newer players to survive is not a good move in the slightest bit.