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Why nerf Iceheart?
-
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique7 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I fail to understand how this will dramatically change the experience when you can just put a shield on your bar.I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
That so few people can do these achievements regardless of set used says plenty in itself. I'm not surprised Iceheart would be used for such things, but can't that because of a lack of alternatives that are worth using, rather than it being overpowered? The new set could have been a chance at a nice alternative option if it had been better designed, but instead we'll end up with two disappointing sets.
Either way, if those achievements are being used to justify this change it doesn't seem like a good one. What is or is not balanced shouldn't be determined by a tiny minority of players.
That’s a big part of the problem — they have said that they “balance” to elite top tier players, who comprise a small fraction of a percent of their base. They often don’t seem to take into consideration how these changes realistically impact the in-game experience of the vast majority of players, especially those looking to improve combat-wise. (Whether they understand the realistic in-game combat experience is another question too.) If they do take them into consideration, it’s only to dismiss them, e.g.: we love the idea of Iceheart helping you to survive as you try harder content...but not so much that we won’t reduce its survival power by nearly 40%. They know they’re hurting a lot of people’s chances at stepping into vMA (that is not to say scaling the leaderboards, but learning it in the first place), as well as other solo content, and they do it anyhow in the name of new standards.
Those new standards are only going to discourage people from doing content. Not all people and not all content, to be sure, but this approach will continue to impact players negatively not only mechanically but even more importantly morale-wise. The last year in particular has been highly discouraging (speaking for myself) after so many huge mechanical changes (many of which have not been readjusted) and increasingly problematic performance — for which some improvements have been made and others are still slated, yes, but that won’t solve the horrendous concurrency issues (over 100 boots to login this past event on NA!), and has any dev actually laid eyes on Kaal in any way, shape, or form since MYM? (I won’t even ask about EU, whose hamster seems to catch fire at the slightest provocation — and sometimes just for fun.)
All this places even greater emphasis on the combat team’s need to create a fun, balanced environment that leads people to want to play the game regardless. This approach doesn’t seem to be very effective in that regard. Not too long ago they literally categorized players live on stream as either elite top tier or Dragon-chasing casuals and made no bones about the fact that they care only about the former when it comes to balance. There are millions of players who aren’t one or the other, and they’re the majority of those who get the raw end of the deal when they fall through that massive crack in the space between extremes.
(Just my $1 — I never learned to stop at 2 cents.)
Perhaps what you're missing (noted in the excellent post you quoted) is the fact that this isn't as much about numbers as it is about lack of respect for the way most players enjoy playing the game (and why they continue to pay money to do so). If the last year has shown anything, it's that this current combat team and the person(s) in charge of their department, while feeling justified in their bubble of balancing elitist's numbers, haven't got a clue, or don't care, in this regard. This unneeded nerf to IceHeart for many, including myself, is like the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. Couple the idea that the average player who enjoys combat in this game doesn't matter, with the unseemly motive of nerfing a very popular set to this crowd so an uninspiring new set in an upcoming chapter (you have to purchase) will appear more attractive, and this level of discontent is what you get.14 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Iceheart is useless in pvp now
It was decent when the shield was 8600 (4300 in pvp)
With this change you will get a 2500 shield in pvp, that's a HUGE nerf to the shield, it wont even absorb a light attack nor even get one tick of damage.
Useless decon if those goes live
I weep for wardens that want to play a frost mage, they just got railroaded with this nerfEdited by RinaldoGandolphi on February 11, 2020 8:07PMRinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak5 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The large majority of us using this set to get through harder content werent actually using it as a crutch to circumvent the difficulty of the content as much as the poor performance and endless bugs that sit in the game for 100+ days at a time.@Inklings Curious, what bugs in particular caused the groups to use this set?
I do not see groups using Iceheart much, as it is just a medium tier set.
However, I certainly can tell why I am using Iceheart as a SOLO SET against bugs.
Like last week in VMA, when under action the game got so full of lag
that I heard the potion sound when I pressed that button in need,
but the potion was not consumed, and I had to press several times to get it registered.
Even though I am living in Germany and we are told by ZOS there should be a good connection,
I often have to press a key several times to get registered by the server,
even if I am just doing daily writs and trying to speed things up with a Streak or Rapid Maneuvre.
In the DAILY LAG HELL this game often is giving us, Iceheart is was useful to stay alive anyway.
With this patch, I am even more afraid now that BLOCKS also have to be confirmed by the server first.
To be honest, I am afraid the game even might feel like a death row under lag if blocks will not register.
Edited by BalticBlues on February 11, 2020 8:59PM10 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.1 -
Moloch1514✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.PC-NA20 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
Not a thing about percentages of who's already using IH. I'd be willing to bet that if they think just ONE person won't buy the new "shiney" because older sets are better, they'd nerf older sets in a heartbeat. With all the flak they got and teasing of the new set, it was a done deal.5 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.0 -
tennyoelf✭✭They should raise the shield to 6000, damage to 600, with a 6 second proc recast. It’ll be their very first Demon Set! Use it to summon Molag Bal!
/joke8 -
Moloch1514✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
What about the part where their dev comment on the latest Iceheart nerf says " based on feedback"?PC-NA9 -
Moloch1514✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
So mid level players concerned they will not be able to complete content they currently can enjoy by using Iceheart are "armchair desk jockey keyboard warrior e-devs"?Edited by Moloch1514 on February 11, 2020 9:10PMPC-NA5 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.7 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.
No whelp required. I never said feedback wasnt part of the pts. My statement was simply that the cadence of pts releases and the notes therein are not exclusively indicative of what they are seeing in house and should not be used as a measure of why changes are made and when, as has been the case in the past. The failure in logic there is that no one has any way to confirm they werent already looking at ice heart prior to the pts to begin with.
To assume feedback isnt taken into account is ludicrous but it is not the only driving force. Then again of course this is fine until it isnt, when changes are made based on feedback that adversely effect a particular demographic of players at which point we wouldnt even be having this conversation.Edited by exeeter702 on February 11, 2020 9:19PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.
No whelp required. I never said feedback wasnt part of the pts. My statement was simply that the cadence of pts releases and the notes therein are not exclusively indicative of what they are seeing in house and should not be used as a measure of why changes are made and when, as has been the case in the past. The failure in logic there is that no one has any way to confirm they werent already looking at ice heart prior to the pts to begin with.
You have stated that:exeeter702 wrote: »You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts.
But I have provided a quote that in this specific case of the latest Ice Heart change there is a direct confirmation from ZOS that the latest pts update is a direct response to feedback.
9 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.
No whelp required. I never said feedback wasnt part of the pts. My statement was simply that the cadence of pts releases and the notes therein are not exclusively indicative of what they are seeing in house and should not be used as a measure of why changes are made and when, as has been the case in the past. The failure in logic there is that no one has any way to confirm they werent already looking at ice heart prior to the pts to begin with.
You have stated that:exeeter702 wrote: »You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts.
But I have provided a quote that in this specific case of the latest Ice Heart change there is a direct confirmation from ZOS that the latest pts update is a direct response to feedback.
Feedback is as always has been, a factor in their decision making. It is not the single driving force to the choices they make. I would have liked to assume everyone here understood that simple truth. My response was Keyed directly at the rebuttal that because the first pts pass did not contain the main ice heart nerf and did contain the new monster set, that is evidence that iceheart nerf was a direct response when that is pure conjecture and a false equivalence.Edited by exeeter702 on February 11, 2020 9:37PM0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
So mid level players concerned they will not be able to complete content they currently can enjoy by using Iceheart are "armchair desk jockey keyboard warrior e-devs"?
Nice strawman. No. That statement was in response to those who believe they know full well what goes in behind the doors of a development studio, in this case, insight into the profit margins for selling a dlc pack based on nerfing a base game niche monster set.
I am completely indifferent to iceheart nerf and for those that now cant "complete content they enjoy" that sucks, though personally I dont see that effecting a great deal of players, that is an entirely separate conversation. My entire point here is believing ice was nerfed exclusively to sell dlc is absurd.0 -
satanio✭✭✭✭
The first CD overnerf was the cause of this.exeeter702 wrote: »I am completely indifferent to iceheart nerf and for those that now cant "complete content they enjoy" that sucks, though personally I dont see that effecting a great deal of players, that is an entirely separate conversation. My entire point here is believing ice was nerfed exclusively to sell dlc is absurd.
Iceheart did not meet our standards - nerf 9k shield to 6k, double the CD(12 sec cd).
Ciannait did not meet our standards, increase shield to 5k, bring CD to 6 sec.
So they just showed there how inconsistent were their standards. This move was pure charlatary.
And how do players justify this inconsistency? Not with simple: 'they are really bad at math' - because that is something that you wouldn't expect at this point, but the very next thing to think of is 'to promote new set'.
Thankfully, they've managed to recover from this 'standard' faux pas.
Sadly, MC and IC may not recover.
P.S.: Remember, chudan is next.8 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.
No whelp required. I never said feedback wasnt part of the pts. My statement was simply that the cadence of pts releases and the notes therein are not exclusively indicative of what they are seeing in house and should not be used as a measure of why changes are made and when, as has been the case in the past. The failure in logic there is that no one has any way to confirm they werent already looking at ice heart prior to the pts to begin with.
To assume feedback isnt taken into account is ludicrous but it is not the only driving force. Then again of course this is fine until it isnt, when changes are made based on feedback that adversely effect a particular demographic of players at which point we wouldnt even be having this conversation.
I think you are giving too much credit to ZoS plans.
What I believe is way more simple: They forgot about IH and then panicked at seeing how MC was a weaker option. Then they made some numbers on the run and found that the DoT was overperforming a bit. After that, they check the usage of IH in certain dungeons, extrapolating that information to this DLC dungeons.
Wanting to protect both, MC and the new dungeons, they just had to do one thing, just drop the hammer, but they realized it wasn't a good move after this thread exploded...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique11 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But if they want to sell dlc why would they nerf chudan
The first CD overnerf was the cause of this.exeeter702 wrote: »I am completely indifferent to iceheart nerf and for those that now cant "complete content they enjoy" that sucks, though personally I dont see that effecting a great deal of players, that is an entirely separate conversation. My entire point here is believing ice was nerfed exclusively to sell dlc is absurd.
Iceheart did not meet our standards - nerf 9k shield to 6k, double the CD(12 sec cd).
Ciannait did not meet our standards, increase shield to 5k, bring CD to 6 sec.
So they just showed there how inconsistent were their standards. This move was pure charlatary.
And how do players justify this inconsistency? Not with simple: 'they are really bad at math' - because that is something that you wouldn't expect at this point, but the very next thing to think of is 'to promote new set'.
Thankfully, they've managed to recover from this 'standard' faux pas.
Sadly, MC and IC may not recover.
P.S.: Remember, chudan is next.#MOREORBS0 -
satanio✭✭✭✭
Ah yes, ok, so buff chudan.
But if they want to sell dlc why would they nerf chudan
The first CD overnerf was the cause of this.exeeter702 wrote: »I am completely indifferent to iceheart nerf and for those that now cant "complete content they enjoy" that sucks, though personally I dont see that effecting a great deal of players, that is an entirely separate conversation. My entire point here is believing ice was nerfed exclusively to sell dlc is absurd.
Iceheart did not meet our standards - nerf 9k shield to 6k, double the CD(12 sec cd).
Ciannait did not meet our standards, increase shield to 5k, bring CD to 6 sec.
So they just showed there how inconsistent were their standards. This move was pure charlatary.
And how do players justify this inconsistency? Not with simple: 'they are really bad at math' - because that is something that you wouldn't expect at this point, but the very next thing to think of is 'to promote new set'.
Thankfully, they've managed to recover from this 'standard' faux pas.
Sadly, MC and IC may not recover.
P.S.: Remember, chudan is next.
2 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
NEW dlc, there is proabably next to no profit on older dlc.
But if they want to sell dlc why would they nerf chudan
The first CD overnerf was the cause of this.exeeter702 wrote: »I am completely indifferent to iceheart nerf and for those that now cant "complete content they enjoy" that sucks, though personally I dont see that effecting a great deal of players, that is an entirely separate conversation. My entire point here is believing ice was nerfed exclusively to sell dlc is absurd.
Iceheart did not meet our standards - nerf 9k shield to 6k, double the CD(12 sec cd).
Ciannait did not meet our standards, increase shield to 5k, bring CD to 6 sec.
So they just showed there how inconsistent were their standards. This move was pure charlatary.
And how do players justify this inconsistency? Not with simple: 'they are really bad at math' - because that is something that you wouldn't expect at this point, but the very next thing to think of is 'to promote new set'.
Thankfully, they've managed to recover from this 'standard' faux pas.
Sadly, MC and IC may not recover.
P.S.: Remember, chudan is next.
Remember, most players don't actually buy the dlc, they subscribe to ESO plus to play it. Once you get what you want from dlc, you can cancel the subscription. When a new dlc launches, they see a spike in ESO plus subscriptions to enjoy the new content, if players aren't interested in whats new, why subscribe if you were already on the fence?
First hand example, I only subscribe 1 month at a time now when a DLC is released. I realized I just do pvp for the remaining 60-70% of time before the next content drop.
All that being said.. I don't actually think they nerfed the set to sell more subs. The new monster set equivilant is more niche by being attached to cast times with no damage and magicka return. Even as a stamina player using a cast time ability, you get less from the new set then you do with Iceheart in most scenarios. I could see it being pretty useful in pvp with flurry/dizzy if you enjoy ample magicka regen, but very little beats Bloodspawn/Troll King.
PC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.
No whelp required. I never said feedback wasnt part of the pts. My statement was simply that the cadence of pts releases and the notes therein are not exclusively indicative of what they are seeing in house and should not be used as a measure of why changes are made and when, as has been the case in the past. The failure in logic there is that no one has any way to confirm they werent already looking at ice heart prior to the pts to begin with.
To assume feedback isnt taken into account is ludicrous but it is not the only driving force. Then again of course this is fine until it isnt, when changes are made based on feedback that adversely effect a particular demographic of players at which point we wouldnt even be having this conversation.
I think you are giving too much credit to ZoS plans.
What I believe is way more simple: They forgot about IH and then panicked at seeing how MC was a weaker option. Then they made some numbers on the run and found that the DoT was overperforming a bit. After that, they check the usage of IH in certain dungeons, extrapolating that information to this DLC dungeons.
Wanting to protect both, MC and the new dungeons, they just had to do one thing, just drop the hammer, but they realized it wasn't a good move after this thread exploded...
This isnt all that crazy for sure. I do honestly get this. But I would sooner posit that ZOS negligence was in not paying attention to IH when they were designing MC. If internally they said "we feel this is the appropriate budget in terms of a 2 peice with x proc condition and y uptime on a damage shield and applied that to a new set that has left the concept stage and went into implementation" and then one of 2 things occurred either they then went "now that we are doing this, let's put IH in line since we are having issues with people using to invalidate or undermine certain challenges" or they went "oh ***, we forgot about IH, crap" in either possible scenario, I do not believe "ok guys we need to sell this dlc as best we can, let's make MC a more attractive option than IH for this reason" was ever on the table.
If they looked at what MC was doing and felt it was properly in line in their view for what that kind of bonus should provide, then the IH nerf was purely collateral. If MC was instead budgeted around pre nerf IH, then they would be allowing an issue that THEY have perceived internally remain intact and not addressed.0 -
BryXuanSoul ShrivenAs a solo player these changes are going to make the game less enjoyable, I think it's time for me to find something else.
13 -
Ekzorka✭✭✭✭✭I'll just leave it here.
This is damage that you'll get for 1 second.
If I can't use Iceheart for some defending from boss and to compensate a lack of people on EU in non-evening time no more, so it's time to deconstruct this set and forget about another one goal.
Love how with each patch-nerf my capabilities are melting down.11 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭The standardization is the silliest thing thing that hit Eso. Losing uniqueness and fun for false appearance of balance and sparing some time in future.10 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Moloch1514 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I am surprised that so little people know about the fact that Iceheart is used to get Achievements such as like Godslayer, Ticktock, Gryphon Heart etc.
Just shows that the amount of players that actually play endgame is non existant.
Did it deserve a nerf? Maybe? However, it will hurt the midtier playerbase way more than the endgame players (like always with changes like that).
Did it deserver a nerf so much that the set is completely useless? OF COURSE NOT. I hate these sledgehammer adjustments.
After much uproar, the set got changed again. The shield size went from around 8400 > 6050 > 5000. More important, they reduced the cooldown to 6 seconds again. It is beyond me how they thought 12s would be "fine".
What worries me the most is, that everything they touch these days be it skills or sets, they try to slap on long cooldowns or cast times.
@Alcast speaks truth once again...Iceheart + Barrier = large shield. Really helps on no deaths runs
Is that wrong?
absolutely not. I agree with him...endgame community is small and many don't really get what this set was used for outside of solo content. Some call it cheesing others like myself call it using what we have to achieve such titles like IR. Consoles needs all the help we can get, lol.
Well, in the end what bothers me, besides the nerf to this set to sell MC, is the fact that ZoS want us to use just the sets they want to complete the content. That's a very wrong signal.
You are a lost cause if you truly believe ice heart was nerfed to sell a quarterly DLC package. What margins are you concocting in your brain that equates to such a frequent scenario where enough players are saying "gee, my ice hearts set it nerfed, but if I buy that new dlc I can still play my build for slaying the various delve beasts throughout tamriel!" When the only groups that were using ice heart in a manner that was even relevant were dedicated core players whom most likely subscribe to eso plus anyways since they are generally end game players. And for the most casual players that liked ice heart for flavor reasons, the nerf to the set is entirely superfluous and inconsequential to the activities they are logging on every day to do.
This tin foil hat *** is ridiculous.
Do you really think it is not? Well, if that's the case, then why is that they deliver a nerf just about 4 years later? Besides that, I don't see any end game player saying he's gonna stop his subscription because of IH, do you?
It is clearly a marketing strategy. It is not a nerf to make similar sets look more "desirable" (to do so, you just need to buff the set), nor a nerf to "balance" the game. It is just pure greed.
In any case I do agree that, if the decision is based only on selling a new DLC's set, it is stupid. What I disagree is seeing it just as a way to punish end game groups. I think both reasons had its weight when they took the decision, so the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
Of course there's a third explanation, in which we buy everything about balance; but if that's the case, why did they create this new set MC?
Of course, they are runing out of ideas too...
It really isnt no. Not to lend too much credit to zos, and just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I am simply a pragmatic type and look at these things in a given light.
Zos, felt that ice heart was over performing in niche scenarios where it potentially undermined particular challenge achievements designed by them in a way they did not like. They wanted to add another monster set to the game and felt the power budget between both sets should be brought into line since until now, there was not quite a monster set that fit into a similar catagory of ice hearts. Be upset at the standardization approach they have adopted as of late and its effects on set design, but do not convince yourself this is entirely to sell dlc. Also 6 years is a bit of a fallacy as the set only became an issue when the changes to damage shields went into effect.
You also have to give a little bit of leeway here with zos, you ask why they made the MC set at all? Well first truly you have to realize that eventually there is going to be anaglous sets introduced in the game at this point. And its pretty clear that these 2 sets share a similar core benefit but function very uniquely from each other in practice.
I'm not saying they are flawless with balance. I'm saying any marketing head that stepped in to detail the cost benefits and potential profit gains from nerfing a base game monster set so the handful of players effected that arent already eso+ subs would be pushed towards purchasing dlc would be laughed the *** out of the room, especially considering the new MC set isnt even better lol. Seriously, come on now.
"Yes, according to our data, 1.3 percent of our non eso plus player base has one of their 7 characters using Ice heart 60 percent of the time said character is logged in. If we can target them with a more attractive alternative via dlc that would be a substantial gain!"
Come on, this is a game that sells loot boxes ffs. You think they are crunching those numbers about how many non eso plus ice heart users they can squeeze 15 dollars out of once over the entire year?.
You forget that the Iceheart nerf was never a part of the initial iteration of this PTS. Only after we laughed at the horrible new set compared to Iceheart did ZOS start this "standardization" of the Iceheart set, which was concurrent with a buff to Mother Ciannit. So to 100% dismiss the notion that ZOS nerfed Iceheart to make MC look better is naive, or borderline White Knight territory. The timeline matters.
I'm a great many things but naive is not one of them. Especially not with this subject. You are basing this off of the assumption each subsequent pts update is a direct response to feedback, when in reality you have no idea what they were seeing internally or what they let slip on the pts. This isnt about white knighting, it's about keeping arm chair desk jockey keyboard warrior "e-devs" within reason. It's one thing to be cynical which there are fewer more cynical than myself but it's entirely another to get caught up in things you think are matters of fact when they arent.
Welp...ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We’ve been reading everyone’s feedback about the recent change to Iceheart (not just on the forums, but other channels and sources as well) and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts. We know it’s frustrating to see a strong set get adjusted in this way, but it was a necessary step to bring it a little closer in strength with existing and upcoming sets.
That said, based on some in-game data, testing, and the feedback we’ve been reading, we’re going to make further adjustments to this set in next week’s PTS patch. The plan is to make the baseline function meet the same standards as the Mother Ciannait set, with a 5k shield that lasts up to 6 seconds with a 6 second cooldown. With Iceheart's auxiliary function being focused on preserving the shield to get as much effectiveness out of the damage as possible, and Ciannait around rushing in boldly to break the shield to maximize the Magicka gain, there will be a better parity between the two that helps them both meet our standards as well as feel different from an engagement standpoint.
No whelp required. I never said feedback wasnt part of the pts. My statement was simply that the cadence of pts releases and the notes therein are not exclusively indicative of what they are seeing in house and should not be used as a measure of why changes are made and when, as has been the case in the past. The failure in logic there is that no one has any way to confirm they werent already looking at ice heart prior to the pts to begin with.
To assume feedback isnt taken into account is ludicrous but it is not the only driving force. Then again of course this is fine until it isnt, when changes are made based on feedback that adversely effect a particular demographic of players at which point we wouldnt even be having this conversation.
I think you are giving too much credit to ZoS plans.
What I believe is way more simple: They forgot about IH and then panicked at seeing how MC was a weaker option. Then they made some numbers on the run and found that the DoT was overperforming a bit. After that, they check the usage of IH in certain dungeons, extrapolating that information to this DLC dungeons.
Wanting to protect both, MC and the new dungeons, they just had to do one thing, just drop the hammer, but they realized it wasn't a good move after this thread exploded...
This isnt all that crazy for sure. I do honestly get this. But I would sooner posit that ZOS negligence was in not paying attention to IH when they were designing MC. If internally they said "we feel this is the appropriate budget in terms of a 2 peice with x proc condition and y uptime on a damage shield and applied that to a new set that has left the concept stage and went into implementation" and then one of 2 things occurred either they then went "now that we are doing this, let's put IH in line since we are having issues with people using to invalidate or undermine certain challenges" or they went "oh ***, we forgot about IH, crap" in either possible scenario, I do not believe "ok guys we need to sell this dlc as best we can, let's make MC a more attractive option than IH for this reason" was ever on the table.
If they looked at what MC was doing and felt it was properly in line in their view for what that kind of bonus should provide, then the IH nerf was purely collateral. If MC was instead budgeted around pre nerf IH, then they would be allowing an issue that THEY have perceived internally remain intact and not addressed.
Agree.
In the end you are right, as consumers we tend to see things from our perspective, that's why the focus on this thread was more about a consumer's perspective (I'm not going to add anything that wasn't said before). Of course it is not the only PoV regarding the decision but it is the one that directly concerns us. What worries me is the sensation that they are paying less and less attention to people's reaction regarding any change within the game. And what makes me sad is that this seems to be not only a ZoS practice, but a Bethesda practice tooEdited by Xvorg on February 12, 2020 4:19PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique7
This discussion has been closed.