Prevent the reign of terror we're about to experience

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

So your brilliant solution to defiles is to..... Run away. Engaging gameplay there. Also, its gonna be perma defile. You just gonna kite all day?

No, I'm going to turn and burn players that don't know the difference between kiting and running away.

BohnT2 wrote: »

the only issue is major defile, nothing else.

Defile is an L2P issue, please refer back to post #114.

You still haven't understood a single thing and i start to feel sorry for you what'll happen to you next patch but then i tried to explain it to you multiple times i guess the EP zerg will have to look for a new zerg leader in 4 weeks.

p00tx

Contrary to my past habit of disagreeing with him, I have to agree with BohnT2 here. Yes, healbots are a problem. Yes, it is obnoxious to deal with these roving bands of nomadic healers spamming healing ult every few seconds. However, granting 100% Major Defile uptime to the single most powerful spec in the game is a terrible idea. It's stupid to give it to ANY spec. Something this powerful should come at a cost. It should be part of a 5 piece set that anyone can choose to wear, and it should have a kiss/curse aspect, like increased resource cost attached.

You can't have it all. The game doesn't (or at least shouldn't) work like that.

OrderoftheDarkness

StaticWave wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Mobility is one of the weakest features of stamcro.

Let me remind you that blastbones can leap from 28m away, and Venom Skull exists as a viable morph for stamcros. Who needs mobility when you can simply stay at range and deal damage?

My tooltip for blastbones fully buffed is 99.9% similar to dawnbreaker's direct dmg part, and it's a cheap and spammable skill that can permanently defile your target. If this doesn't scream imbalanced for you, idk what does.

I wrote about the same thing that this is a nice addition for spammable. Spammable necro itself is weak you can't refuse Dizzy execution combo as in the case of stamplar and its jabs for exploding the target. Although for certain builds this will now work better the synergy of blastbones and venom skull.

MartiniDaniels

I'm thinking if binding javelin will be good counterplay. It stuns for 4 seconds, so skele will have barely any time to leap thereafter. What is current delay on PTS before blastbones leaps?

OrderoftheDarkness

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm thinking if binding javelin will be good counterplay. It stuns for 4 seconds, so skele will have barely any time to leap thereafter. What is current delay on PTS before blastbones leaps?

For about one second the skeleton takes several steps when jumping.

BohnT2

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm thinking if binding javelin will be good counterplay. It stuns for 4 seconds, so skele will have barely any time to leap thereafter. What is current delay on PTS before blastbones leaps?

For about one second the skeleton takes several steps when jumping.

You really haven't tested this at all on pts, the skeleton leaps almost instantly and only at long range you're looking at a 1 sec traveltime but not a single relevant player will frequently use bombers from max range.

idk

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Remember the Templar before the game itself went live? It is a common them in this game that the squeaky wheel gets the attention of Zos regardless of basis of their claims.

xylena

p00tx wrote: »

However, granting 100% Major Defile uptime to the single most powerful spec in the game is a terrible idea. It's stupid to give it to ANY spec. Something this powerful should come at a cost. It should be part of a 5 piece set that anyone can choose to wear, and it should have a kiss/curse aspect, like increased resource cost attached.

Mag Temp is a powerful spec capable of 100% Major Defile uptime via Dark Flare, yet this has never been a problem. If Blastbones overperforms, it won't be due to the Defile, it'll be because it's targeted yet undodgeable, like the original iteration of Warden Cliff Racer that everyone loved so much.

There are two 5pc Major Defile sets, Ward of Cyrodiil and Durok's Bane. The curse on both is garbage uptime and poor stat density... more importantly though, are we really using the term kiss/curse unironically?

BohnT2 wrote: »

i guess the EP zerg will have to look for a new zerg leader in 4 weeks.

I haven't been EP zerg leader since Summerset was new and shiny, but I'm flattered people still think that. Anyway, see above regarding Blastbones overperforming, targeted yet undodgeable has come up as a problem before, you might have a point with that, but the Defile part is still L2P.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

However, granting 100% Major Defile uptime to the single most powerful spec in the game is a terrible idea. It's stupid to give it to ANY spec. Something this powerful should come at a cost. It should be part of a 5 piece set that anyone can choose to wear, and it should have a kiss/curse aspect, like increased resource cost attached.

Mag Temp is a powerful spec capable of 100% Major Defile uptime via Dark Flare, yet this has never been a problem. If Blastbones overperforms, it won't be due to the Defile, it'll be because it's targeted yet undodgeable, like the original iteration of Warden Cliff Racer that everyone loved so much.

There are two 5pc Major Defile sets, Ward of Cyrodiil and Durok's Bane. The curse on both is garbage uptime and poor stat density... more importantly though, are we really using the term kiss/curse unironically?

BohnT2 wrote: »

i guess the EP zerg will have to look for a new zerg leader in 4 weeks.

I haven't been EP zerg leader since Summerset was new and shiny, but I'm flattered people still think that. Anyway, see above regarding Blastbones overperforming, targeted yet undodgeable has come up as a problem before, you might have a point with that, but the Defile part is still L2P.

There's so many differences between bombers and dark flare that the comparison is just absurd and just here to derail the discussion.

Fighting again major defile has always been based on builds nothing else, if you start reaching the math game of losing x health every second because major defile stops you from outhealing it you'll not gonna do anything, you'll just run a more tanky build that doesn't die to major defile and therefore nothing changed at all.
You'll not change anything about the meta with major defile it will just shift further on the tanky side.
But please continue to say it's a L2P issue I'll have my fun with major defile if we get it, but I'm not looking forward to it and many people will regret their standpoint later on

MartiniDaniels

BohnT2 wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm thinking if binding javelin will be good counterplay. It stuns for 4 seconds, so skele will have barely any time to leap thereafter. What is current delay on PTS before blastbones leaps?

For about one second the skeleton takes several steps when jumping.

You really haven't tested this at all on pts, the skeleton leaps almost instantly and only at long range you're looking at a 1 sec traveltime but not a single relevant player will frequently use bombers from max range.

So it became literally aoe non-projectile, undodgeable major defile bomb with damage just slightly less then proc abilities (spectral bow, frags etc) and 1k cost? well, that will be nerfed hard fast or PVP will be unplayable.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

many people will regret their standpoint later on

Remember when the Defile from Lethal Arrow stacked? It was Major Defile too, though they didn't even have that term yet. Vigor didn't exist yet. A couple desynced stealth Snipes and you'd have like 60% reduced healing, maybe worse. I'd rather deal with that than the block heal stall degeneracy fest we have now.

BohnT2

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm thinking if binding javelin will be good counterplay. It stuns for 4 seconds, so skele will have barely any time to leap thereafter. What is current delay on PTS before blastbones leaps?

For about one second the skeleton takes several steps when jumping.

You really haven't tested this at all on pts, the skeleton leaps almost instantly and only at long range you're looking at a 1 sec traveltime but not a single relevant player will frequently use bombers from max range.

So it became literally aoe non-projectile, undodgeable major defile bomb with damage just slightly less then proc abilities (spectral bow, frags etc) and 1k cost? well, that will be nerfed hard fast or PVP will be unplayable.

The only issue is the major defile, the others are also covered by shalks for example they start to be really similar at this point tbh.
Both offer delayed damage, both are undodgeable, shalks covers a bigger area (140m² vs 113m²), grant access to multiple passives, both ignore Los (although in different ways), shalks also exceed them in damage due to the available buffs for Warden.

But major defile with 100% uptime will prove to make bombers incredibly meta defining and shaping it to an even more tanky meta that supersedes anything that isn't a stamnecro or has access to purge.

Rikumaru

Not going to call for nerfs on anything (since im kinda tired classes being rekt by them) but lets talk factually here:

I see above Blastbones being compared to old Lethal Arrow and Dark Flare. The difference between Blastbones and those skills is how Blastbones is the bread and butter burst skill of Necro and the other two are incredibly niche and counterable skills. This skill you can't just counter like the other two.

Secondly Necro, specifically stamcro on live is literally the best class in the game. And now it's burst skill is being mega buffed. If the buffs do go through and nothing changes with other classes all that's going to happen is Necro will be gutted in the near future, potentially in the wrong ways.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

many people will regret their standpoint later on

Remember when the Defile from Lethal Arrow stacked? It was Major Defile too, though they didn't even have that term yet. Vigor didn't exist yet. A couple desynced stealth Snipes and you'd have like 60% reduced healing, maybe worse. I'd rather deal with that than the block heal stall degeneracy fest we have now.

You will see an even worse meta but keep dreaming about a bandaid fix that doesn't do anything healthy for the game at all.
I've explained it probably 15 times already but people will not start to just run the same build they're running now at least the people which want to achieve more than just repairing gates after PvD

OrderoftheDarkness

BohnT2 wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm thinking if binding javelin will be good counterplay. It stuns for 4 seconds, so skele will have barely any time to leap thereafter. What is current delay on PTS before blastbones leaps?

For about one second the skeleton takes several steps when jumping.

You really haven't tested this at all on pts, the skeleton leaps almost instantly and only at long range you're looking at a 1 sec traveltime but not a single relevant player will frequently use bombers from max range.

If this sounds better to you, I think that he does not jump from the place of the summon and is trying to run forward a bit. I called it two steps.
In principle, you did not offer anything in return in your topic. If devs remove Major Defile you will then cry about Wardens 100% resisting pressure or Stamcro with Mortal Coil.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

But major defile with 100% uptime will prove to make bombers incredibly meta defining and shaping it to an even more tanky meta that supersedes anything that isn't a stamnecro or has access to purge.

Yea all the pro tower humpers are gonna be so terrified of Defiles that they all start running 53k HP PvDoor builds.

What are these "bombers" you speak of? NB stealth bombers? Ball group AoE bombs? New meta Stamcro zergs?

katorga

You can always wear Heem-Jas and let the Blastbones buff you with Major Berserk with 100% uptime, and use BPR DW and Blade Cloak to nerf its damage around 50%.

MartiniDaniels

katorga wrote: »

You can always wear Heem-Jas and let the Blastbones buff you with Major Berserk with 100% uptime, and use BPR DW and Blade Cloak to nerf its damage around 50%.

And what you will do with that build, when fighting somebody who doesn't have any "pets" and all his attacks are ST direct damage?

Iskiab

Necros are always a weird issue on the game. I remember on PTS people were screaming they were OP, then live people were screaming they sucked (except broken bash), now it’s back to screaming it’s OP.

I don’t see a way to tell without extensive PTS testing whether it’ll reliably work.

TheBonesXXX

BohnT2 wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

I'm sorry but playing against Defiles is a L2P issue, just like it was when Defiles were meta.

Enjoy holding block in your blobs of healbots waiting for your zerg to play the game for you.

I agree with you. I was just trying to explain to TS that its argument that only one class has access to defile is not an argument. That's why I referred to the streak and his main. Mobility is one of the weakest features of stamcro.

Stop trying to derail the post with a strawman and actually start bringing up arguments you have yet to provide a single constructive argument at all.

No one's trying to derail a thread when you're deliberately trying to get something nerfed.

katorga

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

You can always wear Heem-Jas and let the Blastbones buff you with Major Berserk with 100% uptime, and use BPR DW and Blade Cloak to nerf its damage around 50%.

And what you will do with that build, when fighting somebody who doesn't have any "pets" and all his attacks are ST direct damage?

Because the gist of the thread is it will be a reign of terror and the world as we know is ending, lol.

So there ya go, an instant hard counter. No one has to use it, but it is there. Heem-jas is "in combat with" and no cool down, fighting groups with necros in them and they are just Major Berserk batteries.

BohnT2

Iskiab wrote: »

Necros are always a weird issue on the game. I remember on PTS people were screaming they were OP, then live people were screaming they sucked (except broken bash), now it’s back to screaming it’s OP.

I don’t see a way to tell without extensive PTS testing whether it’ll reliably work.

Let's make a wild guess why this post was made 2 days after pts launched and not on the same day.
It looks like not a single person discussing here with me has done only a little bit of testing on the pts let alone has done 50+ duels before starting talk about the topic

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

But major defile with 100% uptime will prove to make bombers incredibly meta defining and shaping it to an even more tanky meta that supersedes anything that isn't a stamnecro or has access to purge.

Yea all the pro tower humpers are gonna be so terrified of Defiles that they all start running 53k HP PvDoor builds.

What are these "bombers" you speak of? NB stealth bombers? Ball group AoE bombs? New meta Stamcro zergs?

It should be clear that bombers is referring to blastbones.
Also i touched on it earlier that there's already tested builds with 40k health which have absolutely no relevant drawback and they'll won't lose to major defile.

And that's what people will do, they won't play target dummy with a build that loses a fight with someone of the same skill level only because the other guy has major defile, before the fight even started.

Rikumaru

Iskiab wrote: »

Necros are always a weird issue on the game. I remember on PTS people were screaming they were OP, then live people were screaming they sucked (except broken bash), now it’s back to screaming it’s OP.

I don’t see a way to tell without extensive PTS testing whether it’ll reliably work.

Necros have always been OP (Stamcro) even disregarding bash builds. They are just under-researched. I mean just look at the passives and the amount of buffs (such as major protection, major defile and major vun) they have. Not only that but Stamcro in particular has no issues sustaining magicka skills.

Imo the major defile should be removed from the Blastbones and put onto the Totem, when the Totem CC's you. Theres counterplay since you have 2 seconds to get out of the area, but the totem lasts for 11s and most likely will effect more people if there are people in the area. That way theres counterplay but Necro still has access to major defile on a decent skill.

As for Blastbones, it obviously would need a secondary function or a buff of some kind, though not fully sure on what. Major fracture would be a safe goto though it seems too similar in function to Shalks on Warden.

MartiniDaniels

Rikumaru wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Necros are always a weird issue on the game. I remember on PTS people were screaming they were OP, then live people were screaming they sucked (except broken bash), now it’s back to screaming it’s OP.

I don’t see a way to tell without extensive PTS testing whether it’ll reliably work.

Imo the major defile should be removed from the Blastbones and put onto the Totem, when the Totem CC's you. Theres counterplay since you have 2 seconds to get out of the area, but the totem lasts for 11s and most likely will effect more people if there are people in the area. That way theres counterplay but Necro still has access to major defile on a decent skill.

As for Blastbones, it obviously would need a secondary function or a buff of some kind, though not fully sure on what. Major fracture would be a safe goto though it seems too similar in function to Shalks on Warden.

I think, they can apply stacks of stagger and stun when they hit 3rd time. Also increase base cost to 3400.

OrderoftheDarkness

I think if defile gets out of control, devs can try bring back the old view Blastbones only for stamcro. It would look peculiar, but Magcro would get class identity Blastbones that jump from a distance.
P. S. Old Blastbones is elegantly combined with Stamcro, this style resembles a chase. Of course, the geo data of the chase should be completely corrected.

BohnT2

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

I think if defile gets out of control, devs can try bring back the old type Blastbones only for stamcro. It would look peculiar, but Magcro would get class identity Blastbones that jump from a distance.

There is absolutely no reason to change how blastbones work on a mechanical way.
The only issue is major defile making it unusable again just to keep major defile is such a bad decision that i can't put it into words

Aedaryl

This is crazy how people cannot understand why 100% uptime on major defile is a problem.

If you have trouble to understand why it's too strong, duel with someone, then remove 30% of your healing and convert it to DPS. To understand how much is it, compare to your own DPS. This is not even taking into account the huge sustain and damage you loose by being forced to cast heal more often.

Come on bois, we already experienced major defile meta, everyone agreed on how much it was horrible.

Necro having their core damage skill being fonctionna is great, but don't allow major defile cancer.

OrderoftheDarkness

Sneaking blastbones + defile makes a lot of sense in it, for example it could open a window for a DK jump. This was not initially suitable for Magcro. But the funny thing is that DK after the jump can open a window for necroult.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

It should be clear that bombers is referring to blastbones. Also i touched on it earlier that there's already tested builds with 40k health which have absolutely no relevant drawback and they'll won't lose to major defile.

Major Defile is bad because there are builds that won't lose to Major Defile? If you actually played this game competitively when Defiles were meta, you'd know that stacking HP is not a good way to counter pressure, but it can counter burst, which to me says that undodgeable single target ranged nukes are the problem and the reason people are building more HP, not Defiles. And if Defiles did actually hard shut down block healing out of execute range after eating a burst, good.

Your use of "bomber" is not clear at all because "bomber" has specifically referred to NB stealth bombers in this game for quite a while, it just makes you sound like you don't understand this game and don't know what you're talking about, just like how we made fun of ZOS for making up a weird new term "kiss-curse" instead of just saying tradeoff or drawback like someone who regularly communicates with other humans would.