Prevent the reign of terror we're about to experience

BohnT2

Please try to keep more on track of the post.

Major defile is the big issue here as it enables builds which have been unhealthy for the game in the past and will be even worse in the current meta.

Other issues like LoS are still worthy to be discussed but it doesn't affect the meta overall like Major defile does, it's also a much more general issue as this is relevant for every class that has targetable pets. It also doesn't affect building in general as the LoS isn't something that gives you consistent access to something you otherwise had to build for unlike penetration which can be completely replaced by using 2h ult.

katorga

BohnT2 wrote: »

Please try to keep more on track of the post.

Major defile is the big issue here as it enables builds which have been unhealthy for the game in the past and will be even worse in the current meta.

Other issues like LoS are still worthy to be discussed but it doesn't affect the meta overall like Major defile does, it's also a much more general issue as this is relevant for every class that has targetable pets. It also doesn't affect building in general as the LoS isn't something that gives you consistent access to something you otherwise had to build for unlike penetration which can be completely replaced by using 2h ult.

These forums are incoherent. Judging from a number of nerf posts, too much healing and tanks are the problem and one of the reasons is that ZOS nerfed most of the sources of defile needed to counter it. The current tank meta exists because of loss of defiles, nerfing of dots.

Either way, I'm pre-nerfed. My BB finally works, but the damage scaling function on the magicka version doesn't. So i'll have to switch mine back to stamina unless they change it.

Kadoin

katorga wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Please try to keep more on track of the post.

Major defile is the big issue here as it enables builds which have been unhealthy for the game in the past and will be even worse in the current meta.

Other issues like LoS are still worthy to be discussed but it doesn't affect the meta overall like Major defile does, it's also a much more general issue as this is relevant for every class that has targetable pets. It also doesn't affect building in general as the LoS isn't something that gives you consistent access to something you otherwise had to build for unlike penetration which can be completely replaced by using 2h ult.

These forums are incoherent. Judging from a number of nerf posts, too much healing and tanks are the problem and one of the reasons is that ZOS nerfed most of the sources of defile needed to counter it. The current tank meta exists because of loss of defiles, nerfing of dots.

Either way, I'm pre-nerfed. My BB finally works, but the damage scaling function on the magicka version doesn't. So i'll have to switch mine back to stamina unless they change it.

I would actually argue its too much damage at the cost of nothing that enables the tank meta, and then too much damage reduction, then heals, in the order of most empowering.

All defile buffs will do is make people stack more damage reduction and find a way to keep defile up, so when their opponents are not ultra-tanky, they die from refusing to play the game in a completely cheese and boring fashion.

Not to mention defile does not affect all the classes the same since three classes are completely balanced on healing, and the other three focus on damage reduction.

Then there is the fact that this will only empower tanky ballgroup zerging more because you don't need to heal a lot if you have many sources of it, and you don't need a lot of damage if you have lots of sources of it and your opponent cannot outheal it.

Ah, getting ahead of myself and almost went into a rant about the patch notes. All I can say is I sighed hard, shook my head, and then went to drink some tea outside and enjoy the cold winter breeze. Tea made from cheap teabags of course.

xylena

I still don't understand why people are so afraid of Defiles. Try learning some defensive tactics other than block healing? Anyone can use Race Against Time or a well-timed roll dodge.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

I still don't understand why people are so afraid of Defiles. Try learning some defensive tactics other than block healing? Anyone can use Race Against Time or a well-timed roll dodge.

Because neither of that is a sufficient survivability method against defile spam, just building for more survivability is what people will do if they don't play stamden.

You have to heal otherwise you'll die eventually especially because you won't be able to avoid bombers with dodge or Los via RaT.

You should know that after the first duels on pts.

Abyssmol

ZOS wtf, you nerfed Dark Flare, and now you made a Dark Flare equivalent (Blastbones) that is way better. No cast time, faster travel time, perfect for LOS game play, lower resource cost, igreat at range and even better at melee. Whomever wants to argue that Blastbone has an animation time longer than Dark Flare, please stop. This is an ability that you activate instantly and forget - no channel, no cast time. You are free to continue your rotation as soon as you press the bottom. Also as a bonus, you can stand behind the skeleton and it provides lost of sight....

If people don't realize how strong this ability is now, I don't know what to say then. This is an ability that does a lot of damage, it's not easy avoidable at range and impossible to avoid at melee, provides 100% defile because it is spammable (cast and forget); it provides great LOS. Think of a pet sorc and templar Dark Flare combined with no cast time and a pet that actually does damage. ZOS what are you thinking??? Would you consider changing Dark Flare to a instant ability, with faster travel time, and add an animation that after it's cast it provides lost of sight protection for 2.5 seconds.

Again for those people that want to say, oh it's not instant, it has a 2.5 sec animation. I would tell you this, 2.5 sec delay in animation make the ability even stronger. Imagine a Templar casting a instant Dark Flare, and the ball of light stays in front of the templar protecting it of 2.5 seconds, while it's jabbing away. The 2.5 secs animation while standing in front of you is protecting you while you are free to heal, attack, buff, delay the bust.

If this goes live the way it is now on pts, it would be a broken skill... ZOS if you don't agree, then as an alternative, give all classes this 100% uptime defile with all the perks blastbones has now.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

Because neither of that is a sufficient survivability method against defile spam, just building for more survivability is what people will do if they don't play stamden. You have to heal otherwise you'll die eventually especially because you won't be able to avoid bombers with dodge or Los via RaT. You should know that after the first duels on pts.

What does dueling have to do with bombers or LoS? Hopefully nothing...

Either way, there are still plenty of tactics for avoiding enough damage long enough to to afford healing back to full in 3 seconds instead of 2 seconds. If you're badly outnumbered and being zerged, it's still not Defiles that kill you, it's garbage like Silver Leash and Crystal Blast that actually put the nail in the outnumbered coffin.

Healing outpaces damage in most PvP scenarios. This is a bad thing. It punishes initiative, punishes fighting outnumbered, rewards stalling, and rewards zerging. Defiles are necessary to help balance this. One Defile on one class ability is a tiny drop in an ocean of disgustingly powerful healing. If anything, we need more Defiles, and stronger Defiles.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Because neither of that is a sufficient survivability method against defile spam, just building for more survivability is what people will do if they don't play stamden. You have to heal otherwise you'll die eventually especially because you won't be able to avoid bombers with dodge or Los via RaT. You should know that after the first duels on pts.

What does dueling have to do with bombers or LoS? Hopefully nothing...

Either way, there are still plenty of tactics for avoiding enough damage long enough to to afford healing back to full in 3 seconds instead of 2 seconds. If you're badly outnumbered and being zerged, it's still not Defiles that kill you, it's garbage like Silver Leash and Crystal Blast that actually put the nail in the outnumbered coffin.

Healing outpaces damage in most PvP scenarios. This is a bad thing. It punishes initiative, punishes fighting outnumbered, rewards stalling, and rewards zerging. Defiles are necessary to help balance this. One Defile on one class ability is a tiny drop in an ocean of disgustingly powerful healing. If anything, we need more Defiles, and stronger Defiles.

After numerous posts you still haven't understood what the issue with defile is.
They just enable you to kill someone with less offensive investment, no one will be more squishy because he has access to defile but he'll rather spec more into survivability because defile is giving him the luxury of not having to dump as much into offence as before.
This creates a worse situation for everyone no matter if he has defile or not because they're also required to build for more survivability in order to be able to have a chance vs the defile build which then leads to just more tanky players.

This gets disproportionately worse for people without access to major defile as they don't have the extra pressure from it.

Is the answer more access to defile?
No defenitly not because it just shifts a problem to the side which opens up more issues but doesn't solve anything about the core issue

Kalante

undodgeable blast bones? I guess zos learned nothing from morrowind that having skills with no counter are bad for combat.

Cliffracers

Gotta make that pay to win money somehow right Zos?

TheBonesXXX

You can stun Blastbones.

Buff DW and PRESSURE builds.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

They just enable you to kill someone with less offensive investment

Not a bad thing.

BohnT2 wrote: »

he'll rather spec more into survivability because defile is giving him the luxury of not having to dump as much into offence as before

I'm going to keep running (near) full damage and enjoy more executes and less block healing back to full.

xylena

Abyssmol wrote: »

Now, tell me which ability would you rather spam, Dark Flare or Blastbones?

The abilities are superficially similar but have much different functions. Blastbones isn't even spammable. I can understand wanting a buff to Dark Flare, but nerfing Blastbones definitely isn't solving your problem.

ChunkyCat

Let people have their defiles back.

TheBonesXXX

xylena wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Now, tell me which ability would you rather spam, Dark Flare or Blastbones?

The abilities are superficially similar but have much different functions. Blastbones isn't even spammable. I can understand wanting a buff to Dark Flare, but nerfing Blastbones definitely isn't solving your problem.

Yep

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

They just enable you to kill someone with less offensive investment

Not a bad thing.

BohnT2 wrote: »

he'll rather spec more into survivability because defile is giving him the luxury of not having to dump as much into offence as before

I'm going to keep running (near) full damage and enjoy more executes and less block healing back to full.

And I'll enjoy getting free kills on people like you because I'll simply be able to outsustain you while you're trying to kill me but can't because you have to do everything to stay alive while I'm sitting comfortably with 40k HP and 6k wpndmg laughing at people who gave me major defile and thought it'll reduce TTK in their favor

Brandathorbel

juhislihis19 wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I said before: If the Blastbones targeting will get fixed, the skill will be overpowered.

1) Same damage as Sub Assault (HIGH)
2) Extremely difficult to avoid (not like roll dodging or jumping away from Sub Assault after 3s)
3) Dirt cheap to cast (less than 1k stamina)
4) Applies MAJOR Defile, one of the strongest buffs in the game, which is extremely hard to come by nowadays
5) The debuff and the damage are AOE

When I play my StamNecro, I hit Blastbones for 5-7k and get regularly hit by 5-8k Blastbones. At the moment it's just extremely unreliable to use. That's why there haven't been concerns about it, because the class is not very used. If they have fixed the targeting, the skill is too much.

so you guys want to screw people in pve again? you do realize pvp is probably 5% of the population.

technohic

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Bad players should be able to AOE defile though; apparently.

Neoauspex

xbobx15 wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I said before: If the Blastbones targeting will get fixed, the skill will be overpowered.

1) Same damage as Sub Assault (HIGH)
2) Extremely difficult to avoid (not like roll dodging or jumping away from Sub Assault after 3s)
3) Dirt cheap to cast (less than 1k stamina)
4) Applies MAJOR Defile, one of the strongest buffs in the game, which is extremely hard to come by nowadays
5) The debuff and the damage are AOE

When I play my StamNecro, I hit Blastbones for 5-7k and get regularly hit by 5-8k Blastbones. At the moment it's just extremely unreliable to use. That's why there haven't been concerns about it, because the class is not very used. If they have fixed the targeting, the skill is too much.

so you guys want to screw people in pve again? you do realize pvp is probably 5% of the population.

I heard from an equally credible source that PvP is 112% of the population

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

laughing at people who gave me major defile and thought it'll reduce TTK in their favor

Sounds like Defiles need a buff!

If less WD is necessary to secure kills in PvP, that means the meta is overall less tanky, meaning players are investing more into survivability to reach the same level of tankiness they previously had. So while you'll now be able to score some kills on your 40k HP 6k WD build at the current pathetic rate, I'll be killing much more efficiently with 28k HP and 8k WD, or maybe I'll take advantage of the meta shift and build in more sustain, then your assumption that you can outlast me falls apart.

This isn't really the point though, and tanky damage builds have never been the problem. Tanky healbots are the problem, so anything that makes tanky healbots sacrifice healing and sustain if they want to continue being as tanky as they've been... that's a good thing. Defiles give damage builds options, while bringing some balance and counterplay to the tanky healbot plague. What's not to like?

xylena

technohic wrote: »

Bad players should be able to AOE defile though; apparently.

So long as "bad" players can win by heal blobbing, other "bad" players should at least be able to counter this.

Player skill isn't the issue here though, I'm sorry I got tilted and went that direction, let's move on.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

laughing at people who gave me major defile and thought it'll reduce TTK in their favor

Sounds like Defiles need a buff!

If less WD is necessary to secure kills in PvP, that means the meta is overall less tanky, meaning players are investing more into survivability to reach the same level of tankiness they previously had. So while you'll now be able to score some kills on your 40k HP 6k WD build at the current pathetic rate, I'll be killing much more efficiently with 28k HP and 8k WD, or maybe I'll take advantage of the meta shift and build in more sustain, then your assumption that you can outlast me falls apart.

This isn't really the point though, and tanky damage builds have never been the problem. Tanky healbots are the problem, so anything that makes tanky healbots sacrifice healing and sustain if they want to continue being as tanky as they've been... that's a good thing. Defiles give damage builds options, while bringing some balance and counterplay to the tanky healbot plague. What's not to like?

Outsustain was used here in the term of simply winning the math game of waiting till your health drops to 0 because the defiles are on you.

It's a fight you can't win because you won't be able to kill me even with your higher damage due to my health range but I'll be able to kill you because time is working in my favor.

And people won't go into fights that they're determined to lose and will then just spec into more survivability with the result of a meta that's centralized around defile that removes any build without access to it while not improving the situation for builds that use major defile.

katorga

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Pretty sure most people in this thread have never met one of those stamcros that OP is talking about and hence have no idea what the setup is capable of. So innocent, so clueless.

Kadoin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Please try to keep more on track of the post.

Major defile is the big issue here as it enables builds which have been unhealthy for the game in the past and will be even worse in the current meta.

Other issues like LoS are still worthy to be discussed but it doesn't affect the meta overall like Major defile does, it's also a much more general issue as this is relevant for every class that has targetable pets. It also doesn't affect building in general as the LoS isn't something that gives you consistent access to something you otherwise had to build for unlike penetration which can be completely replaced by using 2h ult.

These forums are incoherent. Judging from a number of nerf posts, too much healing and tanks are the problem and one of the reasons is that ZOS nerfed most of the sources of defile needed to counter it. The current tank meta exists because of loss of defiles, nerfing of dots.

Either way, I'm pre-nerfed. My BB finally works, but the damage scaling function on the magicka version doesn't. So i'll have to switch mine back to stamina unless they change it.

I would actually argue its too much damage at the cost of nothing that enables the tank meta, and then too much damage reduction, then heals, in the order of most empowering.

You might be right, I'm just looking at the content of various nerf posts in the forums...there are a large contingent that blame loss of defile sources for the healing/tank meta. Another contingent holds that there is simply too much healing in the game, largely from DOTs getting over-buffed, then over-nerfed, while hots stayed over-buffed.

But overall the variety nerf posts are totally incoherent, conflicting, or nonsensical. If everyone thinks that many different things are OP, then everything is more likely fairly balanced.

Personally, I think whenever some streamer posts an "<INSERT CLASS HERE> is INSANE" video, the Herd panics. There are some players who make every class/build look good, and a huge number of people believe the clickbait titles.

FWIW, black rose DW weapons and/or blade cloak guts a necro. (and of course there are threads calling to nerf BRP DW).

xylena

There was actually a pretty decent balance of builds and playstyles during the Bleed/Defile meta.

Tanky attrition builds had the advantage over bursty glass cannons.
Bursty glass cannons had the advantage over aggressive pressure builds.
Aggressive pressure builds had the advantage over tanky attrition builds.

Without viable DoTs, Bleeds, or Defiles, aggressive pressure builds ceased to exist, and players adapted by becoming both bursty and tanky. @BohnT2 is arguing that bringing back Defiles will bring back tanky attrition builds, and that these builds will have the advantage over bursty glass cannons. This is correct, and a good thing, because it would also bring back aggressive pressure builds (which is what I'd actually be running).

Unfortunately, one Defile on one ability isn't breaking the Tank Meta, as Defiles are still overall weaker than they've ever been (Befoul nerf alongside various healing buffs), and there are no DoT stacks strong enough to take advantage of the effective increase in pressure from reducing enemy healing. At best, the Blastbones Defile gives Stamcro players a better shot at executing enemies before they can block heal out of execute range if their burst combo falls short, which is a good thing, and something every spec should be able to do.

ChunkyCat

xylena wrote: »

There was actually a pretty decent balance of builds and playstyles during the Bleed/Defile meta.

Tanky attrition builds had the advantage over bursty glass cannons.
Bursty glass cannons had the advantage over aggressive pressure builds.
Aggressive pressure builds had the advantage over tanky attrition builds.

Without viable DoTs, Bleeds, or Defiles, aggressive pressure builds ceased to exist, and players adapted by becoming both bursty and tanky.

+1

OrderoftheDarkness

BohnT2 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

laughing at people who gave me major defile and thought it'll reduce TTK in their favor

Sounds like Defiles need a buff!

If less WD is necessary to secure kills in PvP, that means the meta is overall less tanky, meaning players are investing more into survivability to reach the same level of tankiness they previously had. So while you'll now be able to score some kills on your 40k HP 6k WD build at the current pathetic rate, I'll be killing much more efficiently with 28k HP and 8k WD, or maybe I'll take advantage of the meta shift and build in more sustain, then your assumption that you can outlast me falls apart.

This isn't really the point though, and tanky damage builds have never been the problem. Tanky healbots are the problem, so anything that makes tanky healbots sacrifice healing and sustain if they want to continue being as tanky as they've been... that's a good thing. Defiles give damage builds options, while bringing some balance and counterplay to the tanky healbot plague. What's not to like?

Outsustain was used here in the term of simply winning the math game of waiting till your health drops to 0 because the defiles are on you.

It's a fight you can't win because you won't be able to kill me even with your higher damage due to my health range but I'll be able to kill you because time is working in my favor.

And people won't go into fights that they're determined to lose and will then just spec into more survivability with the result of a meta that's centralized around defile that removes any build without access to it while not improving the situation for builds that use major defile.

In fact, this is the class identity of stam necro. People must decompose by engaging in a long struggle with stam necro. You ignored my question. Why streak allows you to safely avoid fighting from classes that lack mobility. In this case, sorc can blow up many builds just by running away.
In truth, you are asking for a nerf, but you have not offered anything in return. What are your ideas for what stam necro should look like?

React

The class is just too tanky. I'd be fine with a functional blastbones providing reliable 100% uptime defile as a spammable, if the class wasn't flat out unkillable in the hands of a decent player. They need to replace some of the defensive passives with offensive ones. Like the one that gives healing done while a negative effect is on you, or the crit healing when you get lower on health. Additionally the ghost shouldn't provide a unique 10% mitigation buff - this should instead be minor protection.

The class is ridiculously strong, but it is mainly just because of how hard they are to kill.

OrderoftheDarkness

Liam12548 wrote: »

The class is just too tanky. I'd be fine with a functional blastbones providing reliable 100% uptime defile as a spammable, if the class wasn't flat out unkillable in the hands of a decent player. They need to replace some of the defensive passives with offensive ones. Like the one that gives healing done while a negative effect is on you, or the crit healing when you get lower on health. Additionally the ghost shouldn't provide a unique 10% mitigation buff - this should instead be minor protection.

The class is ridiculously strong, but it is mainly just because of how hard they are to kill.

This is the other side of the question, and I agree with you. As long as people take Mortal Coil in meta healing instead of a siphon this will continue.
People get more advantages' and invest in healing such as Rally + Vigor + Mortal coil. Even 10% reduction of damage from the spirit does not carry them as this bundle.

TheBonesXXX

BohnT2 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

They just enable you to kill someone with less offensive investment

Not a bad thing.

BohnT2 wrote: »

he'll rather spec more into survivability because defile is giving him the luxury of not having to dump as much into offence as before

I'm going to keep running (near) full damage and enjoy more executes and less block healing back to full.

And I'll enjoy getting free kills on people like you because I'll simply be able to outsustain you while you're trying to kill me but can't because you have to do everything to stay alive while I'm sitting comfortably with 40k HP and 6k wpndmg laughing at people who gave me major defile and thought it'll reduce TTK in their favor

Till they buff pressure again.

p00tx

Instead of messing with healing overall (PvE exists), can't we all just agree to cut cross healing by an additional 50% via Battle Spririt? Having a pocket healer is nice, but I'd rather lose that than to have you guys get the devs to gut healing across the board so you can pugstomp zergs. I really don't know why players seem incapable of seeing the far reaching implications of their suggestions, rather than just being single-mindedly tunneled into their own tiny little corner of the game.

xylena

p00tx wrote: »

Instead of messing with healing overall (PvE exists), can't we all just agree to cut cross healing by an additional 50% via Battle Spririt? Having a pocket healer is nice, but I'd rather lose that than to have you guys get the devs to gut healing across the board so you can pugstomp zergs. I really don't know why players seem incapable of seeing the far reaching implications of their suggestions, rather than just being single-mindedly tunneled into their own tiny little corner of the game.

Reducing group healing via Battle Spirit has been suggested and I'd agree that it would make PvP better.

You reference far-reaching implications and caution against tunneling into a small corner of the game, so you should probably consider how pugs feel when they drive an organized ball group off the flags, only for the ball group to stall the fight for the next hour by running around the walls. The ball group has no actual chance of winning the battle due to numbers, but the pugs have no actual chance of wiping the ball group without certain stationary ground AoEs.

Reducing group healing would make it easier for the pugs to finish the win, should the ball group only stall, but it also gives the ball group a better chance of pulling off a high-risk high-reward bomb against a larger group of pugs. This is much healthier gameplay, in which initiative and aggression are rewarded, while heal blobbing to stall the fight is punished. Group purge spam also needs to not be a thing, but that's another topic.