Prevent the reign of terror we're about to experience

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

First of all you're not going to be oneshotted by a stamcro not with health ranges of 28-32k unless you are a bad player.

Sorry, not literally one shotted, but 30k burst in a short enough window to kill a competitive player is doable. That's what is going to kill you, and that's fine, because it takes skill to land a combo like that. The Defile is what doesn't make a difference unless you are a bad player, e.g. squishy bowtato trying to face tank by spamming Rally.

You really don't seem like a potato though, so I'm not sure why you're missing how easy it is to counter Defiles now. They're not going to inexorably bleed you into execute range like they did in 2016. You'll just heal through them on a meta PvP damage build, especially if you've got Mending or Vitality buffs.

Abyssmol

BohnT2 wrote: »

With people slowly catching up how viable (and broken) stamnecro is and the changes for blastbones (which are great from a functionality point of view) we'll see a huge influx of them being used in PvP.

And now we reach the critical point of a now reliable skill offering 100% uptime of major defile, which has shown in the past that it's extremely unhealthy for the game, but now the skill isn't dodgeable or limited to meele range, no it's undodgeable, ignores Los, deals high damage and is cheap.

Yet all those things are fine as long as major defile isn't attached to it but with how major defile influences pvp builds you'll see even more tanky build which are build to be able to survive being severely defiled while killing other specs by wearing them down with defile.
This slowly removes any build that can't compete with those which is the case for almost any spec as they don't have the luxury of major defile.

Change the major defile to anything else but a class that has the survivability of stamnecro that also has access to major vulnerability shouldn't have access to major defile, no class should have access to it on skills that provide 100% uptime (read non ultimate abilities)

Btw instant offensive CCs are healthy for the game as long as they're not tied to absurd skills like drain

But I'm sure blastbones has a cast time like solar flare, right! And also cost as much, right! Right!!!!

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

First of all you're not going to be oneshotted by a stamcro not with health ranges of 28-32k unless you are a bad player.

Sorry, not literally one shotted, but 30k burst in a short enough window to kill a competitive player is doable. That's what is going to kill you, and that's fine, because it takes skill to land a combo like that. The Defile is what doesn't make a difference unless you are a bad player, e.g. squishy bowtato trying to face tank by spamming Rally.

You really don't seem like a potato though, so I'm not sure why you're missing how easy it is to counter Defiles now. They're not going to inexorably bleed you into execute range like they did in 2016. You'll just heal through them on a meta PvP damage build, especially if you've got Mending or Vitality buffs.

You are still missing the point, you think it will change anything about the high TTK meta we have right now but it simply won't because the stamnecro and everyone facing you while you're affected by major defile increase their damage level without changing anything about their build.
But this also means that he can keep the exact same offensive presence he has now by simply investing even more into tankiness in order to be less affected by major defile while still having the same killing potential he has right now.

He just has to build to survive infinitely vs x opponents, which is laughably easy on a stamnecro to begin with and have absolutely no reduction in his offence.
He can and will be able to create situations where he will kill the enemy after Y seconds because his damage will exceed the enemies heals due to major defile and there is no reason to give the enemy any chance of killing you just to save yourself 20 seconds in this math game, you just build for extra survivability because the clock is ticking in his favor.

So we end up in the situation we had for years because people don't understand that tanks make better use of major defile because they have higher survivability, longer offensive windows and more sustain than squishy builds.

OrderoftheDarkness

BohnT2 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

First of all you're not going to be oneshotted by a stamcro not with health ranges of 28-32k unless you are a bad player.

Sorry, not literally one shotted, but 30k burst in a short enough window to kill a competitive player is doable. That's what is going to kill you, and that's fine, because it takes skill to land a combo like that. The Defile is what doesn't make a difference unless you are a bad player, e.g. squishy bowtato trying to face tank by spamming Rally.

You really don't seem like a potato though, so I'm not sure why you're missing how easy it is to counter Defiles now. They're not going to inexorably bleed you into execute range like they did in 2016. You'll just heal through them on a meta PvP damage build, especially if you've got Mending or Vitality buffs.

You are still missing the point, you think it will change anything about the high TTK meta we have right now but it simply won't because the stamnecro and everyone facing you while you're affected by major defile increase their damage level without changing anything about their build.
But this also means that he can keep the exact same offensive presence he has now by simply investing even more into tankiness in order to be less affected by major defile while still having the same killing potential he has right now.

He just has to build to survive infinitely vs x opponents, which is laughably easy on a stamnecro to begin with and have absolutely no reduction in his offence.
He can and will be able to create situations where he will kill the enemy after Y seconds because his damage will exceed the enemies heals due to major defile and there is no reason to give the enemy any chance of killing you just to save yourself 20 seconds in this math game, you just build for extra survivability because the clock is ticking in his favor.

So we end up in the situation we had for years because people don't understand that tanks make better use of major defile because they have higher survivability, longer offensive windows and more sustain than squishy builds.

I think you're already overplaying the cause-effect relationship. In words, it always sounds different.

Neoauspex

katorga wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Give it a cast time like Dark Flare. Need counters for healing, since healing is out of control right now.

It has a 2.5 second delay after casting...that IS a lot higher than Dark Flare.

Delayed damage is a good thing because it allows you to stack burst. Cast times are bad things because you can't do $#!+ else. So take defile off, give it a cast time, or make some reasonable counter to this skill or it will be out of balance with other similar class skills.

I'm generally against nerfs and prefer the counter option for the record.

BohnT2

There is no reason to change how the skill works it has been unusable for more than 90% of its existence.
The problem is major defile and only major defile

Iskiab

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Chunky coming in with a hot take.

But he does have a point. Bad players should be able to still play in and enjoy PvP. Of course, block heal spam shouldn't be the reason why bad players are able to succeed. I've yet to see a single solution that means both solo players aren't frustrated and bad players are able to suceed still.

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players.

If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

Agreed, I always get a kick out of what your average player thinks is going on in the groups that roll over them.

Block casting Breath of Life? Okay...

Has anyone ever seen this work anywhere?

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

You are still missing the point, you think it will change anything about the high TTK meta we have right now

I don't think that. I've repeatedly stated that the Defile attached to Blastbones is going to be a non-factor. The effective increase in sustained DpS from Major Defile is a non-factor, because sustained DpS in PvP is dead. Defile builds used to work because they were backed by strong DoTs, which no longer exist. What even is this scenario you're afraid of, Blastbones followed by Dizzy spam?

xylena

Iskiab wrote: »

Agreed, I always get a kick out of what your average player thinks is going on in the groups that roll over them. Block casting Breath of Life? Okay... Has anyone ever seen this work anywhere?

If I'm the average player here, I don't think there's anything at all going in the 48-man guild raid stack that rolled over me. Literally nothing, not even block healing, which would require one to realize they're being attacked. There is nothing going in that group but pure brainless faceroll spam. I'm not sure why any members of this group would even bother discussing balance or mechanics on the forums, because those things have never been a factor for 48-man groups looking for smaller numbers to roll over.

I hope the new siege engine is a Coldfire meatbag with Proxy Det damage scaling. No cap.

Joy_Division

xylena wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players. If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

I'm not sure if this is in response to me, and it's kinda weird coming from someone with the "you are underperforming" quote in their sig, but I retract the part of the argument about player skill, that was me getting frustrated with the fact that we're probably never leaving the Tank Meta because it's apparently what the player base wants. People would rather sit there holding block and playing "who can stack the most healbots on the flag" than risk dying I guess.

Not directed at you at all. It's mostly toward those people who come on these forums and post death recaps claiming they only reason they died was because of bad balancing or some other excuse. If anything, I think it's people like that who pushed ZoS into giving us this dumb meta complaining about dying to "baddies" or "zergers" or whatever.

That's something quite different from expressing frustration over the direction of the game, something I do constantly.

Iskiab

xylena wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Agreed, I always get a kick out of what your average player thinks is going on in the groups that roll over them. Block casting Breath of Life? Okay... Has anyone ever seen this work anywhere?

If I'm the average player here, I don't think there's anything at all going in the 48-man guild raid stack that rolled over me. Literally nothing, not even block healing, which would require one to realize they're being attacked. There is nothing going in that group but pure brainless faceroll spam. I'm not sure why any members of this group would even bother discussing balance or mechanics on the forums, because those things have never been a factor for 48-man groups looking for smaller numbers to roll over.

I hope the new siege engine is a Coldfire meatbag with Proxy Det damage scaling. No cap.

Most of the 48 person groups people complain about are faction stacks. Most of those groups are players in groups of 4-16 or solo.

Most of the ‘48 people’ is just hyperbole and people getting mad they died.

My guild’s a good example, in Homicide we’ve been averaging about 18 people but that won’t stop people from raging about 48 people when they die.

Ariades_swe

BohnT2 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

First of all you're not going to be oneshotted by a stamcro not with health ranges of 28-32k unless you are a bad player.

Sorry, not literally one shotted, but 30k burst in a short enough window to kill a competitive player is doable. That's what is going to kill you, and that's fine, because it takes skill to land a combo like that. The Defile is what doesn't make a difference unless you are a bad player, e.g. squishy bowtato trying to face tank by spamming Rally.

You really don't seem like a potato though, so I'm not sure why you're missing how easy it is to counter Defiles now. They're not going to inexorably bleed you into execute range like they did in 2016. You'll just heal through them on a meta PvP damage build, especially if you've got Mending or Vitality buffs.

You are still missing the point, you think it will change anything about the high TTK meta we have right now but it simply won't because the stamnecro and everyone facing you while you're affected by major defile increase their damage level without changing anything about their build.
But this also means that he can keep the exact same offensive presence he has now by simply investing even more into tankiness in order to be less affected by major defile while still having the same killing potential he has right now.

He just has to build to survive infinitely vs x opponents, which is laughably easy on a stamnecro to begin with and have absolutely no reduction in his offence.
He can and will be able to create situations where he will kill the enemy after Y seconds because his damage will exceed the enemies heals due to major defile and there is no reason to give the enemy any chance of killing you just to save yourself 20 seconds in this math game, you just build for extra survivability because the clock is ticking in his favor.

So we end up in the situation we had for years because people don't understand that tanks make better use of major defile because they have higher survivability, longer offensive windows and more sustain than squishy builds.

Giving the most tanky class that also got huge burst and arguably the best hots in the game access to a 100 uptime on defile is bad for class balance.
People gonna cry when cyro is flooded by tanky stamcros with the major berserk set and working blast bones.

[Edit to remove naming and shaming]

Abyssmol

People complained about Templar's Dark Flare. Hold on to your pants: you'll love this YouTube video about the StamNecro Blastbones

Watch "Necro is GOOD now?! ☠ Blast Bones WORKS! Necromancer class balance updates for ESO Harrowstone DLC" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/St4_Q_njeI8

Ability instant cast; skeleton jumps up to 28m; the jump is faster than the travel time of Flare; cost 2295 stamina; base damage 1233 disease damage,

compared to Flare: 1421 base magicka damage; cast time 1.1 sec.; same range 28m

Yeap, nothing to see here; completely balanced

pieratsos

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

access to major defile has proofed to be completely unhealthy for the game

Have you not played since 2016? This game desperately needs strong Defiles back. Bad players do not need to be able to face tank, and they definitely shouldn't be healing their entire zerg in the process.

No this game desperately doesnt need defiles. Defiles are the counter to healing not the counter to tanks. Ironically, tanks are the only builds that can actually fight defiles while every other normal build without extreme healing is getting s*** on by defiles. Its literally the exact opposite of how it should worked.

Yes bad players shouldnt be able to face tank and heal entire groups. And to fix that, you need to address the actual issue which is what enables them to get to that point in the first place. Not throw in a band aid fix and call it a day.

katorga

Neoauspex wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Give it a cast time like Dark Flare. Need counters for healing, since healing is out of control right now.

It has a 2.5 second delay after casting...that IS a lot higher than Dark Flare.

Delayed damage is a good thing because it allows you to stack burst. Cast times are bad things because you can't do $#!+ else. So take defile off, give it a cast time, or make some reasonable counter to this skill or it will be out of balance with other similar class skills.

I'm generally against nerfs and prefer the counter option for the record.

Umm. Don't Templars have Dark Flare AND a delayed burst skill? (and a functional spammable too)

But I am looking forward to Blastbones actually working! I've seen mine glitch out on mudcrabs.

Iskiab

katorga wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Give it a cast time like Dark Flare. Need counters for healing, since healing is out of control right now.

It has a 2.5 second delay after casting...that IS a lot higher than Dark Flare.

Delayed damage is a good thing because it allows you to stack burst. Cast times are bad things because you can't do $#!+ else. So take defile off, give it a cast time, or make some reasonable counter to this skill or it will be out of balance with other similar class skills.

I'm generally against nerfs and prefer the counter option for the record.

Umm. Don't Templars have Dark Flare AND a delayed burst skill? (and a functional spammable too)

But I am looking forward to Blastbones actually working! I've seen mine glitch out on mudcrabs.

Yea we do. It’s really nice when you pull off both, but it’s harder to pull off then you’d think. Cast time and a delayed projectile makes it easy to dodge. It’s still a nice skill and I use it all the time.

OrderoftheDarkness

Abyssmol wrote: »

People complained about Templar's Dark Flare. Hold on to your pants: you'll love this YouTube video about the StamNecro Blastbones

Watch "Necro is GOOD now?! ☠ Blast Bones WORKS! Necromancer class balance updates for ESO Harrowstone DLC" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/St4_Q_njeI8

Ability instant cast; skeleton jumps up to 28m; the jump is faster than the travel time of Flare; cost 2295 stamina; base damage 1233 disease damage,

compared to Flare: 1421 base magicka damage; cast time 1.1 sec.; same range 28m

Yeap, nothing to see here; completely balanced

One thing I can say for sure is that this is a good attempt to improve weaving and class spammable(Venom Skull, Ricochet Skull), which is currently useless. Because the entire Grave Lord branch uses a distance of 28m. Such a BB will be used equally from a distance and with melee. Maybe that's what was missing for class spammable.

StrandedMonkey

The class trade off of buffs from every class to necro's I would honestly say is about minimal to equal. Your biggest concern is necromancer's major defile upkeep while buffs like Major Mending and Major/Minor Protection (with Major Evasion) absolutely dominate PvP and are extremely easy to maintain and obtain. The current meta we have now is to uphold tankiness and healing.

Looking at other classes: sorc, templar, DK and warden all have sources of healing buffs whether or not it's major/minor vitality or major/minor mending. Saying that keeping major defile consistently applied is not only an "easy" thing to do, but it also brings to mind that if maintaining this pressure is easy, then it's just as easy as all the other classes to maintain their healing buffs too.

Necro is an EXTREMELY barebones class, it offers strong debuffs rather than seeing a healing buff such as vitality or mending. To me I see the trade off in high damage output in relation to the kind of tankiness you'd see on Warden or Dragonknight. This also means I have to fulfill the requirement of that buff as I see fit in order to be on par with these classes. I'll name off a couple of buffs and passives that are easily accessible by other classes and you tell me if major defile is still something to be worried about.

• As mentioned previously Igneous Shield (Major Mending)DK
• Mountain's Blessing(Minor Brutality)DK
• Dragon Blood(Major Fortitude/Minor Vitality)DK
• Restraining Prison(Major Vitality) Sorc
• Sacred Ground (Minor Protection) Templar
• Spear Wall(Minor Protection again)Templar
• Accelerated Growth (Major Mending) Warden
• Maturation(Minor Toughness)Warden
• Ice Fortress(Minor Protection) Warden
• Bird of Prey(Minor Berserk) Warden
• Swarm(Minor Vulnerability) Warden

They're probably more skills associated with this but in terms of buffs, not hard resource gain, Necromancer absolutely lacks whats given here in exchange for the debuffs you consider overpowered. I didn't mention ults but I'm sure at this point you get the idea. Even then Collossus isn't a hard hitting ult and 7/10 times people are usually getting out after the first smash which is less than dawnbreaker. As much as I hate to sound like a cocky player, combating Major Defile in a meta of stacked self healing isn't something to be concerned over rather than the overwhelming tankiness associated with the stacking of protection buffs with evasion and healing.

If there is anything that should be brought into questioning of the Necromancer class, I'd say it would be skills like Grave Grasp, Agony Totem, Spirit Mender, Graveyard, and especially Deaden Pain with the increasing ease of corpse management. My opinions on those skills are for another time when I write a serious post.


TLDR: No, Blastbones is totally fine, collossus sucks as intended, fun passive facts, and how I feel about other necro skills.

Mojomonkeyman

Pretty sure most people in this thread have never met one of those stamcros that OP is talking about and hence have no idea what the setup is capable of. So innocent, so clueless.

OrderoftheDarkness

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Pretty sure most people in this thread have never met one of those stamcros that OP is talking about and hence have no idea what the setup is capable of. So innocent, so clueless.

On the other hand, the TS might be a mag sorc that couldn't blow up such a necro. There is always another side to the coin.
Can I remind you that in any topics of this format people have a personal interest. To understand the overall picture in such topics, it is necessary that TS wrote who is his main.
P.S. As for the colossus, developers could split the damage into two hits. Because it is really very easy to avoid. The ability costs 225 Ult.

BohnT2

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Pretty sure most people in this thread have never met one of those stamcros that OP is talking about and hence have no idea what the setup is capable of. So innocent, so clueless.

On the other hand, the TS might be a mag sorc that couldn't blow up such a necro. There is always another side to the coin.
Can I remind you that in any topics of this format people have a personal interest. To understand the overall picture in such topics, it is necessary that TS wrote who is his main.
P.S. As for colosus, the developers did not prevent dividing the damage into two strikes. Because it's really very easy to avoid. Ability that costs 225 ult.

If i were to be a magsorc only player a complaint about defiles would be rather low on my list as magsorc has much bigger issues than dying.

But I'm playing every spec including stamnecro and I'm not interested in 3 months of one spec dominating pvp just for ZOS to take the wrong direction and completely trash the spec.

You have to call out things before they become a problem, then the worst thing is having to deal with clueless people who are against you position, as soon as clueless people support your case it's over and Zos gets too many bad ideas

Derra

Iskiab wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Chunky coming in with a hot take.

But he does have a point. Bad players should be able to still play in and enjoy PvP. Of course, block heal spam shouldn't be the reason why bad players are able to succeed. I've yet to see a single solution that means both solo players aren't frustrated and bad players are able to suceed still.

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players.

If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

Agreed, I always get a kick out of what your average player thinks is going on in the groups that roll over them.

Block casting Breath of Life? Okay...

Has anyone ever seen this work anywhere?

I´d invite you to try and fight ad faction pugs on PC-EU.
Ofc block healspam is not interesting or relevant for an organised group.
For a pug group fighting a solo player or a duo they outnumber atleast 5:1 having a templar/sorc spamming their classes burstheal and starting to block whenever they take damage is one if not the most effective way to not die with as minimal input requirement as pressing 1 button per hand.
Which i´d consider a crutch at this point - because of the state of offense compared to defense in the game (no offensive ccs left, no instant ultimates, minimum traveltimes, animation delays over half a second on key skills etc pp.)

This is coming from someone who regularly fights the pugs solo unable to kill anyone if the wrong 1 or 2 persons are in said pug aswell as someone who steamrolls the same people with 4 man harmony setup in literally 2 seconds.

And while i´m inclined to agree with joys general statement about single skills being classified as crutches being mostly user error i´m on the other hand one of those players that firmly believes that crutches exists in the form of too high HP pools (while being able to maintain high enough dmg/sustain), disproportionately strong defensive sets/racials, heavyattack sustain, harmony etc.

I don´t believe bb is a crutch though - i just think permanent major defile shouldn´t be a thing especially when it´s locked to a pay to unlock class.

OrderoftheDarkness

BohnT2 wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Pretty sure most people in this thread have never met one of those stamcros that OP is talking about and hence have no idea what the setup is capable of. So innocent, so clueless.

On the other hand, the TS might be a mag sorc that couldn't blow up such a necro. There is always another side to the coin.
Can I remind you that in any topics of this format people have a personal interest. To understand the overall picture in such topics, it is necessary that TS wrote who is his main.
P.S. As for colosus, the developers did not prevent dividing the damage into two strikes. Because it's really very easy to avoid. Ability that costs 225 ult.

If i were to be a magsorc only player a complaint about defiles would be rather low on my list as magsorc has much bigger issues than dying.

But I'm playing every spec including stamnecro and I'm not interested in 3 months of one spec dominating pvp just for ZOS to take the wrong direction and completely trash the spec.

You have to call out things before they become a problem, then the worst thing is having to deal with clueless people who are against you position, as soon as clueless people support your case it's over and Zos gets too many bad ideas

I'll tell you honestly, if zos listened to all the ideas from the forum, they would have already exploded their head. It was just invented by people to justify nerf / buff apparently it's easier for players to blame someone. You can see how many people agree with you. It's easy to estimate. 70-80% agree with you only because it is a call to nerf.
Following your reasoning, we must ask ourselves a question. Why sorc should have a streak or nb should have a cloak and etc. Why they should easily throw off the fight. Why don't I see these topics.

Derra

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

Necro is an EXTREMELY barebones class, it offers strong debuffs rather than seeing a healing buff such as vitality or mending. To me I see the trade off in high damage output in relation to the kind of tankiness you'd see on Warden or Dragonknight.

Wait - did you just say that one of the tankiest classes in the game (without all those buffs mind you) isn´t tanky? How do you have to build a necro to not be tanky?
I´m genuinely interested.

Heresyall

Most players don't realise that stamina necromancer tankiness allows the class to go full damage and one shot basically any player already.
On PC EU stamnecro is slowly becoming meta , a class having one shot potential (with oneslaught not colossus) + pressure with defile + getting the best tankiness in the game is a bit too strong.
I'm thinking of one good player that most bg players are suspecting of cheating just because he is the only one mastering the class(Dusk).

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Chunky coming in with a hot take.

But he does have a point. Bad players should be able to still play in and enjoy PvP. Of course, block heal spam shouldn't be the reason why bad players are able to succeed. I've yet to see a single solution that means both solo players aren't frustrated and bad players are able to suceed still.

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players.

If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

Agreed, I always get a kick out of what your average player thinks is going on in the groups that roll over them.

Block casting Breath of Life? Okay...

Has anyone ever seen this work anywhere?

I´d invite you to try and fight ad faction pugs on PC-EU.
Ofc block healspam is not interesting or relevant for an organised group.
For a pug group fighting a solo player or a duo they outnumber atleast 5:1 having a templar/sorc spamming their classes burstheal and starting to block whenever they take damage is one if not the most effective way to not die with as minimal input requirement as pressing 1 button per hand.
Which i´d consider a crutch at this point - because of the state of offense compared to defense in the game (no offensive ccs left, no instant ultimates, minimum traveltimes, animation delays over half a second on key skills etc pp.)

This is coming from someone who regularly fights the pugs solo unable to kill anyone if the wrong 1 or 2 persons are in said pug aswell as someone who steamrolls the same people with 4 man harmony setup in literally 2 seconds.

And while i´m inclined to agree with joys general statement about single skills being classified as crutches being mostly user error i´m on the other hand one of those players that firmly believes that crutches exists in the form of too high HP pools (while being able to maintain high enough dmg/sustain), disproportionately strong defensive sets/racials, heavyattack sustain, harmony etc.

I don´t believe bb is a crutch though - i just think permanent major defile shouldn´t be a thing especially when it´s locked to a pay to unlock class.

Well this is sort of derailing the thread but going higher mitigation and hit points makes a lot of sense in group play.

A good example would be against AD in PC-NA. They’ll usually faction stack so 80 or so people so if you fight them your abilities stop working. Break free doesn’t work, any projectile rarely works, anything with a cast time is unusable, etc... In a situation like that then add health desyncs and at least being tanky will let you survive a bit and do something.

The other reason is vicious death. I wouldn’t mind glassy builds in Cyro if it wasn’t for this set, but they usually take out a group with them when they die.

If it wasn’t for lag and vicious death things like light armour would be usable in Cyro. I mean, if you allow low-CPs to be in your guild how many groups don’t focus them for VD procs? It’s also why I think Drac sets up as far away from their faction as possible. A random squishy can kill the group.

StrandedMonkey

Derra wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

Necro is an EXTREMELY barebones class, it offers strong debuffs rather than seeing a healing buff such as vitality or mending. To me I see the trade off in high damage output in relation to the kind of tankiness you'd see on Warden or Dragonknight.

Wait - did you just say that one of the tankiest classes in the game (without all those buffs mind you) isn´t tanky? How do you have to build a necro to not be tanky?
I´m genuinely interested.

Necromancer 's offensives kit offers hard healing skills and some of those provide damage mitigation. I never said in any way that the class wasn't tanky. What I'm saying is that the class offers hard numbers instead of obtainable buffs You can build Necro just as tanky as everyone else, but I promise you mender,mortal coil, and goliath ult won't keep you as tanky as a DK would be with igneous shield and dragon's blood. It's also common sense to avoid fighting people over 34k base health because chances are you're going to get kited into someone else whos able to kill you and thats a 2v1

i bolded the important words just in case you don't read this post like you did the other one so you can understand what im saying

MincVinyl

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but i think everyone is missing the most over powering part of blastbones. Since the leap and placement is so predictable, and it will be cast off cooldown essentially, the player will always be able to LOS using the disposable pet. Imagine if sorcs were given a curse that gave them guaranteed LOS and major defile 100% uptime. Im sure there would be plenty of people crying on the forums. Or imagine warden beetles having health bars, providing LOS.

This is not saying blastbones shouldn't work, but I can see that other aspects of it will be toned down in the future from people realizing how strong it is.

Maybe get rid of the major defile and give bonus chance to proc the disease effect. because curently you can run a charged on say a dw offhand and get really good uptime on major/minor defile

darthgummibear_ESO

Abyssmol wrote: »

People complained about Templar's Dark Flare. Hold on to your pants: you'll love this YouTube video about the StamNecro Blastbones

Watch "Necro is GOOD now?! ☠ Blast Bones WORKS! Necromancer class balance updates for ESO Harrowstone DLC" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/St4_Q_njeI8

Ability instant cast; skeleton jumps up to 28m; the jump is faster than the travel time of Flare; cost 2295 stamina; base damage 1233 disease damage,

compared to Flare: 1421 base magicka damage; cast time 1.1 sec.; same range 28m

Yeap, nothing to see here; completely balanced

Yeah we'll just conveniently ignore the time of the summoning animation which is at least as long as the cast time you mentioned if not longer.

If finally feels good to use. At this point as long as they leave BB as it is right now on the PTS for PvE, they can do whatever they want in PvP. I'm tired of the cycle of things sucking or being overpowered because they are incapable of balancing the two game modes separately.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Chunky coming in with a hot take.

But he does have a point. Bad players should be able to still play in and enjoy PvP. Of course, block heal spam shouldn't be the reason why bad players are able to succeed. I've yet to see a single solution that means both solo players aren't frustrated and bad players are able to suceed still.

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players.

If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

Agreed, I always get a kick out of what your average player thinks is going on in the groups that roll over them.

Block casting Breath of Life? Okay...

Has anyone ever seen this work anywhere?

I´d invite you to try and fight ad faction pugs on PC-EU.
Ofc block healspam is not interesting or relevant for an organised group.
For a pug group fighting a solo player or a duo they outnumber atleast 5:1 having a templar/sorc spamming their classes burstheal and starting to block whenever they take damage is one if not the most effective way to not die with as minimal input requirement as pressing 1 button per hand.
Which i´d consider a crutch at this point - because of the state of offense compared to defense in the game (no offensive ccs left, no instant ultimates, minimum traveltimes, animation delays over half a second on key skills etc pp.)

This is coming from someone who regularly fights the pugs solo unable to kill anyone if the wrong 1 or 2 persons are in said pug aswell as someone who steamrolls the same people with 4 man harmony setup in literally 2 seconds.

And while i´m inclined to agree with joys general statement about single skills being classified as crutches being mostly user error i´m on the other hand one of those players that firmly believes that crutches exists in the form of too high HP pools (while being able to maintain high enough dmg/sustain), disproportionately strong defensive sets/racials, heavyattack sustain, harmony etc.

I don´t believe bb is a crutch though - i just think permanent major defile shouldn´t be a thing especially when it´s locked to a pay to unlock class.

Well this is sort of derailing the thread but going higher mitigation and hit points makes a lot of sense in group play.

A good example would be against AD in PC-NA. They’ll usually faction stack so 80 or so people so if you fight them your abilities stop working. Break free doesn’t work, any projectile rarely works, anything with a cast time is unusable, etc... In a situation like that then add health desyncs and at least being tanky will let you survive a bit and do something.

The other reason is vicious death. I wouldn’t mind glassy builds in Cyro if it wasn’t for this set, but they usually take out a group with them when they die.

If it wasn’t for lag and vicious death things like light armour would be usable in Cyro. I mean, if you allow low-CPs to be in your guild how many groups don’t focus them for VD procs? It’s also why I think Drac sets up as far away from their faction as possible. A random squishy can kill the group.

We all run light or medium currently. Also the reason that we play away from our faction is because we prefer to test ourselves as a group and with pugs there it isn't really fun.