Prevent the reign of terror we're about to experience

BohnT2

With people slowly catching up how viable (and broken) stamnecro is and the changes for blastbones (which are great from a functionality point of view) we'll see a huge influx of them being used in PvP.

And now we reach the critical point of a now reliable skill offering 100% uptime of major defile, which has shown in the past that it's extremely unhealthy for the game, but now the skill isn't dodgeable or limited to meele range, no it's undodgeable, ignores Los, deals high damage and is cheap.

Yet all those things are fine as long as major defile isn't attached to it but with how major defile influences pvp builds you'll see even more tanky build which are build to be able to survive being severely defiled while killing other specs by wearing them down with defile.
This slowly removes any build that can't compete with those which is the case for almost any spec as they don't have the luxury of major defile.

Change the major defile to anything else but a class that has the survivability of stamnecro that also has access to major vulnerability shouldn't have access to major defile, no class should have access to it on skills that provide 100% uptime (read non ultimate abilities)

Btw instant offensive CCs are healthy for the game as long as they're not tied to absurd skills like drain

Stellarvorous

I have to ask are you actually worried blastbones might actually hit people now lol? yes you are correct if blastbones fix actually makes the skill worth using alot more necros will show up me included.


A lot of people have steered clear of playing their necros because of how crappy blastbones functions especially considering its a staple of the class.


There hasn't been hardly blastbones OP threads since necromancer released considering it has to do a song and a dance just to roll a d20 to see if its actually going to hit the person you cast it on between that its subject to any inc damage/CC if someone decides to kill it before it hits its mark.


Far as defile goes and your statement about tanks I have to ask if you even step into pvp atm im going to say PC NA for example because it is crawling with tanks atm this is elder scrolls online Not Eternal Pillow Fights Online because frankly there are too many folks running around taking 10+ people to down because they committed 100% to tanking.


Berserkers strike and all its morphs just took another 16% damage nerf via this PTS ontop of the continuous nerfs both onslaught and berserkers rage have taken since the release of elsweyr.

Granted when onslaught first got its rework it was very strong now it and berserkers rage are nearing the toilet bowl as the more nerfs they take the more likely everyone is gona start reslotting dawnbreaker again especially with vampire popularity.

Now keep the berserkers strike and its morphs nerf in mind cast times on ults the level of tanks we are currently dealing with in pvp atm especially PC NA and then evaluate your statement about major defile.

Between the cast times on ults the nerfs of dots the nerf damage on weapon skills/class skills the nerfs on ults like berserkers rage and onslaught and colossus ect ect yet again zos keeps nerfing the only ways to kill people in pvp short of zerging them down.


If this keeps up when you go to watch a stream of someone pvping all your gona see is either a zerg of 40+ people chasing down 1 guy or a couple of 12 year old girls having a sleep over pillow fight because "Aint no one dying to *** anymore"

The amount of tanks in pvp has *Increased* with the nerfs of damage from "All sources" and introduction of cast times on ults these folks playing tanks have less to worry about the more damage gets gutted which makes things like MAJOR DEFILE more precious and more classes need access to it.

They are going to play their tank specs no matter if we bring a lot of damage or no damage some folks just decided they don't want to die in pvp ever again that's their choice their playstyle w/e.

The rest of the player base that wants to actually see people die in pvp once in a while can come to an agreement "Stop nerfing the sources of damage and remove the *** cast times from ults"

juhislihis19

I agree with the OP. I said before: If the Blastbones targeting will get fixed, the skill will be overpowered.

1) Same damage as Sub Assault (HIGH)
2) Extremely difficult to avoid (not like roll dodging or jumping away from Sub Assault after 3s)
3) Dirt cheap to cast (less than 1k stamina)
4) Applies MAJOR Defile, one of the strongest buffs in the game, which is extremely hard to come by nowadays
5) The debuff and the damage are AOE

When I play my StamNecro, I hit Blastbones for 5-7k and get regularly hit by 5-8k Blastbones. At the moment it's just extremely unreliable to use. That's why there haven't been concerns about it, because the class is not very used. If they have fixed the targeting, the skill is too much.

MartiniDaniels

I agree that it will be OP. BUT, jabs&onslaught combo are clearly op too, warden buffs like permanent major heroism+ major mending below 40% HP+major protection are OP too... Isn't everyone complaining about tank meta? Sure this change will create another FOTM spec, but imo it's better to have several powerful specs to select from while some other classes like NB and nerfed again in U24 DK will be notably weaker and so it will be clear for devs that they require buffs. While now both are fluctuating on border of powerful tools like cloak/leap but mediocre in the others, and for those who don't play them NB and DK might look ok.

BohnT2

Stellarvorous wrote: »

I have to ask are you actually worried blastbones might actually hit people now lol? yes you are correct if blastbones fix actually makes the skill worth using alot more necros will show up me included.


A lot of people have steered clear of playing their necros because of how crappy blastbones functions especially considering its a staple of the class.


There hasn't been hardly blastbones OP threads since necromancer released considering it has to do a song and a dance just to roll a d20 to see if its actually going to hit the person you cast it on between that its subject to any inc damage/CC if someone decides to kill it before it hits its mark.


Far as defile goes and your statement about tanks I have to ask if you even step into pvp atm im going to say PC NA for example because it is crawling with tanks atm this is elder scrolls online Not Eternal Pillow Fights Online because frankly there are too many folks running around taking 10+ people to down because they committed 100% to tanking.


Berserkers strike and all its morphs just took another 16% damage nerf via this PTS ontop of the continuous nerfs both onslaught and berserkers rage have taken since the release of elsweyr.

Granted when onslaught first got its rework it was very strong now it and berserkers rage are nearing the toilet bowl as the more nerfs they take the more likely everyone is gona start reslotting dawnbreaker again especially with vampire popularity.

Now keep the berserkers strike and its morphs nerf in mind cast times on ults the level of tanks we are currently dealing with in pvp atm especially PC NA and then evaluate your statement about major defile.

Between the cast times on ults the nerfs of dots the nerf damage on weapon skills/class skills the nerfs on ults like berserkers rage and onslaught and colossus ect ect yet again zos keeps nerfing the only ways to kill people in pvp short of zerging them down.


If this keeps up when you go to watch a stream of someone pvping all your gona see is either a zerg of 40+ people chasing down 1 guy or a couple of 12 year old girls having a sleep over pillow fight because "Aint no one dying to *** anymore"

The amount of tanks in pvp has *Increased* with the nerfs of damage from "All sources" and introduction of cast times on ults these folks playing tanks have less to worry about the more damage gets gutted which makes things like MAJOR DEFILE more precious and more classes need access to it.

They are going to play their tank specs no matter if we bring a lot of damage or no damage some folks just decided they don't want to die in pvp ever again that's their choice their playstyle w/e.

The rest of the player base that wants to actually see people die in pvp once in a while can come to an agreement "Stop nerfing the sources of damage and remove the *** cast times from ults"

I'm playing on EU, you really don't have to tell me what a Tank meta feels like.

Major defile or 100% penetration give you a lot of opportunity cost for no cost in your build.

People don't have to invest in offence or penetration making things obsolete and giving players the option to have the same (and more) offensive presence someone with 2 offensive sets has while they're playing in 2 defensive sets.

As i described above already major defile punishes squishy builds a lot more than tanks as tanks already have a much higher survivability as they take less damage and have sufficient heals.

Also the tank meta has been influenced far more by the increased health pools in conjunction with cast times as the increased HoTs (which are not an issue on their own) and the removal of almost any offensive CC rather than the removal of major defile.
PC EU had its fair share of major defile meta for 2 years till it got rightfully nerfed and it's safe to say that no one plays a squishy build anymore and any build that is not using major defile becomes obsolete.
With blastbones being the only skill that supports major defile with a decent uptime that can't be easily countered, we're heading into a meta of 1 spec and only 1 spec that will dominate the whole game.

I'm not complaining about blastbones being reliable, I've been complaining about them ever since they got clapped in the second elsweyr pts and I've been complaining about necros one dimensional offence in general.

But this complaint here is solely about major defile and how it'll negatively affect the meta till it gets removed.

Iskiab

It’s just one of those things. Stamnecro will be beast of everything works, question is ‘Is everything working?’

Neoauspex

Give it a cast time like Dark Flare. Need counters for healing, since healing is out of control right now.

iCaliban

Change major defile to minor? Or guarantee poison status effect? Add a dot component?

Regardless. On demand aoe defile that is reliably procced is too strong. This is why reverb got nerfed and it was single target

xylena

Something that might actually kill tanky healbots? NERF BEFORE SOMEONE DIES IN PVP

Gilvoth

last thing forum needs these constant nerf request threads.
please stop making nerf threads like these.

WreckfulAbandon

xylena wrote: »

Something that might actually kill tanky healbots? NERF BEFORE SOMEONE DIES IN PVP

I agree with the spirit of this quote but in practice a class shouldn't be head and shoulders above every other.

If Blastbones is reliable (which it should be) we are definitely looking at the best PvP class:

-Major Defile on "spammable" which can also be combo'd with
-Major Protection on a class skill which you can reach reasonable uptime on
-Major Vulnerability
-Purge that costs health on a class with a huge number of options for healing

There are things like Spirit Mender reducing damage received by 10% that I won't even touch on, those 4 above are the biggest factors I can think of. Also, I'm not asking for a nerf, but pointing out why I'm sick of seeing "Nerf Jabs" threads and other dumb nerf requests when Necros are still kinda under the radar.

Nord Stamcro is absolutely the best overall spec in PvP and I'm almost afraid to roll one since it seems something is gonna get nerfed eventually.

iCaliban

xylena wrote: »

Something that might actually kill tanky healbots? NERF BEFORE SOMEONE DIES IN PVP

You know better than that. And someone already posted a detailed response about why this will force more tanky builds. Since squishy players rely on healing more than tanks.

BohnT2

Gilvoth wrote: »

last thing forum needs these constant nerf request threads.
please stop making nerf threads like these.

You are not allowed to tell me which post I'm allowed to open.

cheifsoap

I swear half of you guys either don't pvp or are just terrible at it. Assuming all skill is equal; Necros are no stronger than stamden magplar stamplar stamdk and so on. I seriously think you just need to l2p

Lughlongarm

It is funny, I think the current version is more dangerous compared to what It used to be in Elsweyr PTS. It got nerfed for a reason.... This skill is a pain to balance.

On Elsweyr PTS, the Skelton was very accurate and fast like an homing missile, you just press and forget. But at least the skeleton had to chase you was could have been t killed or CCed during this time. Now that the leap is like 25 range away from the target, it is very problematic.
Because very is no more chasing down time, they should increase the skeleton summoning to like 4 sec. The leap should stay as is because it solves the targeting issue. Magicka morph should obviously be adjusted.

ChunkyCat

So what you’re saying is... I need to level up my StamCro.

Okily Dokily.

OrderoftheDarkness

iCaliban wrote: »

Change major defile to minor? Or guarantee poison status effect? Add a dot component?

Regardless. On demand aoe defile that is reliably procced is too strong. This is why reverb got nerfed and it was single target

Reverb got nerf because first of all it's thematically stupid to have a defile on a shield stun associated with disease-causing. Second, it's a lot to have defile + stun. Third, it was to highlight class identity.
P. S. I still find it funny to look at Magplar with defile. This is really very funny the warrior of light is associated with rot.

xylena

iCaliban wrote: »

Since squishy players rely on healing more than tanks.

No. Squishy players rely on avoiding damage by kiting, sprinting, rolling, cloaking, streaking, etc, which buys them the opportunity to heal, but at no point are they relying on face tanking by outhealing incoming damage, which is specifically what Defiles were once supposed to counter. They were extremely punishing to bad players trying to face tank, but not very effective against good players on glass cannons. Now though, with all the Defile nerfs alongside buffs to every form of healing and widespread easy access to Mending and Vitality, tanky builds laugh at Defiles.

Ironically, Stamcros won't even care about the Defile either way if the Blastbones fix means they're consistently landing one shot Colossus combos. Pure burst is the only thing that works in the Tank Meta. Pressure tactics remain dead.

OrderoftheDarkness

xylena wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Since squishy players rely on healing more than tanks.

Ironically, Stamcros won't even care about the Defile either way if the Blastbones fix means they're consistently landing one shot Colossus combos. Pure burst is the only thing that works in the Tank Meta. Pressure tactics remain dead.

Exactly. I tried to keep the -60% healing in CP. In the end, I still only killed with an explosion. People calmly healed a full column of health.

Ariades_swe

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Something that might actually kill tanky healbots? NERF BEFORE SOMEONE DIES IN PVP

I agree with the spirit of this quote but in practice a class shouldn't be head and shoulders above every other.

If Blastbones is reliable (which it should be) we are definitely looking at the best PvP class:

-Major Defile on "spammable" which can also be combo'd with
-Major Protection on a class skill which you can reach reasonable uptime on
-Major Vulnerability
-Purge that costs health on a class with a huge number of options for healing

There are things like Spirit Mender reducing damage received by 10% that I won't even touch on, those 4 above are the biggest factors I can think of. Also, I'm not asking for a nerf, but pointing out why I'm sick of seeing "Nerf Jabs" threads and other dumb nerf requests when Necros are still kinda under the radar.

Nord Stamcro is absolutely the best overall spec in PvP and I'm almost afraid to roll one since it seems something is gonna get nerfed eventually.

Agreed.
Stamcro is top tier and lots of top players allready switched too it.
Imagine next patch when blastbones work lol.
They gonna be absolutely horrifying coupled together with that major berserk set.

GRXRG

Stamcro will actually be top stam pvp class for sure, superior to stamden.
It will have one of the strongest hard hitting,cheap and easy combo burst in the game.
Pair with with being a Nord you will see those carried players running around with 35k resists and 7k weapon damage.
Funny game will be.

If they don't address black rose prison dw, and those sets that makes you tanky without losing any damage at all, pvp will be always toxic and unbalanced.

The problem will be insane in no-cp and battlegrounds which has already stats lowered as heck, if you face a necro your vigor or rapid regen ticks will heal for 100 points of health lol
While they have their good 7k wd 35k resistances, -10% damage reduction and so on.

xylena

GRXRG wrote: »

those sets that makes you tanky without losing any damage at all

The biggest offender is back bar SnB and its low-cost on-demand 90% direct damage mitigation with zero GCDs required. Tanky tower humpers Quick Cloaking around in circles on a resource are nowhere near as toxic to PvP as tanky healbots holding block and spamming burst heals between defensive ulti drops, which are the real root of all the stalling, zerging, and bad players being carried by degenerate gameplay. Also FWIW, the Stamcro that won a recent major dueling tournament was running back bar SnB, not BRP DW, which should tell you something.

Iskiab

ChunkyCat wrote: »

So what you’re saying is... I need to level up my StamCro.

Okily Dokily.

Basicly yea, you won’t see a big jump from a stamwarden but it’s one of those classes where if everything actually worked it’d be beast, but it doesn’t so it’s only good.

I haven’t tested to see if everything’s working now

Ariades_swe

xylena wrote: »

GRXRG wrote: »

those sets that makes you tanky without losing any damage at all

The biggest offender is back bar SnB and its low-cost on-demand 90% direct damage mitigation with zero GCDs required. Tanky tower humpers Quick Cloaking around in circles on a resource are nowhere near as toxic to PvP as tanky healbots holding block and spamming burst heals between defensive ulti drops, which are the real root of all the stalling, zerging, and bad players being carried by degenerate gameplay. Also FWIW, the Stamcro that won a recent major dueling tournament was running back bar SnB, not BRP DW, which should tell you something.

I can tell u sure like your brp carry set since you seem terrified of it getting a nerf.
The reason noone using BRP in tournament is cause it's banned while SnB is not.

ChunkyCat

i only do non-serious duels

WreckfulAbandon

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Change major defile to minor? Or guarantee poison status effect? Add a dot component?

Regardless. On demand aoe defile that is reliably procced is too strong. This is why reverb got nerfed and it was single target

Reverb got nerf because first of all it's thematically stupid to have a defile on a shield stun associated with disease-causing. Second, it's a lot to have defile + stun. Third, it was to highlight class identity.
P. S. I still find it funny to look at Magplar with defile. This is really very funny the warrior of light is associated with rot.

Before Reverb got nerfed I could run all kinds of creative builds on Magplar. Since that nerf it's basically run 3 dmg sets or get tanked by any semi-defensive build for longer than I care to.

I would honestly prefer 5 sec TTK to the 5 min TTK that we currently have

Derra

xylena wrote: »

Something that might actually kill tanky healbots? NERF BEFORE SOMEONE DIES IN PVP

Consindering everyone not a tanky healbot suffers worse from this - yes? Yes indeed nerf it before it goes live.

Then nerf the tanky healbots.

We´ve had a meta where everyone ran perma defile - bringing it back on just one class will create more issues than the defile for everyone meta did.

Artorias24

I like my defiling blastbones. Those magplars with their insane burst heal and hots from rapid can finally die and we have some options against big groups with a few healbots.

And tbh, defile is also quite fitting for necro but ye, you can also change to blastbones leaving a poisoned area behind wich applies major defile so smart players can just walk out

xylena

Ariades_swe wrote: »

I can tell u sure like your brp carry set since you seem terrified of it getting a nerf. On EU brp is banned for serious duels while snb is allowed.

I run Master Bow, not BRP DW. Thing is, nerfing BRP DW will have zero effect on the Tank Meta, because those players will just switch to back bar SnB and be just as obnoxiously tanky, because it's not a downgrade. Both enable low cost, low effort, brainless face tanking, one just trades versatility for mobility.

If anything, back bar SnB is a much bigger problem because it enables tanky healbots to both stall attackers focusing them while also healing their group, which is the real root of bad PvP full of stalling, zerging, and bad players surviving mistakes that once upon a time in this game actually killed them.

Meanwhile, BRP DW does what exactly, makes it harder to zerg down tower humpers? Stalls out duels because a third of your GCDs are taken up by Quick Cloak? I really don't have any love for tower humping or BRP DW, but it's not the root of the problem, and it's ridiculous to call back bar BRP DW a "carry" while claiming back bar SnB is fine. The bad players zerging you down are all running SnB, not DW. "Hold block spam heals" is the most braindead degenerate crap in the game.

xylena

Derra wrote: »

Consindering everyone not a tanky healbot suffers worse from this - yes? Yes indeed nerf it before it goes live. Then nerf the tanky healbots. We´ve had a meta where everyone ran perma defile - bringing it back on just one class will create more issues than the defile for everyone meta did.

@Derra see my post #18, this is nothing like when Defiles were meta, but I do agree that a good class Defile shouldn't be limited to just Stamcro. It's a tool every class and spec should be able to use, just like the blocking and healing it's supposed to counter, or the purge to remove it (purge availability is another disaster for a different topic).

Joy_Division

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.