Prevent the reign of terror we're about to experience

katorga

Neoauspex wrote: »

Give it a cast time like Dark Flare. Need counters for healing, since healing is out of control right now.

It has a 2.5 second delay after casting...that IS a lot higher than Dark Flare.

BohnT2

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

I'm not insisting on getting their behavior nerfed (i have in fact been complaining about them not working at all both here and the discords) or anything but access to major defile has proofed to be completely unhealthy for the game and having it only on one class is just asking for a horrible meta.

They have been terrible because Zos did the wrong things because they messed up in the first week of pts giving them double damage and rather than just balancing the damage first they did reduce the damage while making them terrible in terms of functionality.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

access to major defile has proofed to be completely unhealthy for the game

Have you not played since 2016? This game desperately needs strong Defiles back. Bad players do not need to be able to face tank, and they definitely shouldn't be healing their entire zerg in the process.

ChunkyCat

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

TheUndeadAmulet

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Chunky coming in with a hot take.

But he does have a point. Bad players should be able to still play in and enjoy PvP. Of course, block heal spam shouldn't be the reason why bad players are able to succeed. I've yet to see a single solution that means both solo players aren't frustrated and bad players are able to suceed still.

Revokus

BohnT2 wrote: »

Stellarvorous wrote: »

I have to ask are you actually worried blastbones might actually hit people now lol? yes you are correct if blastbones fix actually makes the skill worth using alot more necros will show up me included.


A lot of people have steered clear of playing their necros because of how crappy blastbones functions especially considering its a staple of the class.


There hasn't been hardly blastbones OP threads since necromancer released considering it has to do a song and a dance just to roll a d20 to see if its actually going to hit the person you cast it on between that its subject to any inc damage/CC if someone decides to kill it before it hits its mark.


Far as defile goes and your statement about tanks I have to ask if you even step into pvp atm im going to say PC NA for example because it is crawling with tanks atm this is elder scrolls online Not Eternal Pillow Fights Online because frankly there are too many folks running around taking 10+ people to down because they committed 100% to tanking.


Berserkers strike and all its morphs just took another 16% damage nerf via this PTS ontop of the continuous nerfs both onslaught and berserkers rage have taken since the release of elsweyr.

Granted when onslaught first got its rework it was very strong now it and berserkers rage are nearing the toilet bowl as the more nerfs they take the more likely everyone is gona start reslotting dawnbreaker again especially with vampire popularity.

Now keep the berserkers strike and its morphs nerf in mind cast times on ults the level of tanks we are currently dealing with in pvp atm especially PC NA and then evaluate your statement about major defile.

Between the cast times on ults the nerfs of dots the nerf damage on weapon skills/class skills the nerfs on ults like berserkers rage and onslaught and colossus ect ect yet again zos keeps nerfing the only ways to kill people in pvp short of zerging them down.


If this keeps up when you go to watch a stream of someone pvping all your gona see is either a zerg of 40+ people chasing down 1 guy or a couple of 12 year old girls having a sleep over pillow fight because "Aint no one dying to *** anymore"

The amount of tanks in pvp has *Increased* with the nerfs of damage from "All sources" and introduction of cast times on ults these folks playing tanks have less to worry about the more damage gets gutted which makes things like MAJOR DEFILE more precious and more classes need access to it.

They are going to play their tank specs no matter if we bring a lot of damage or no damage some folks just decided they don't want to die in pvp ever again that's their choice their playstyle w/e.

The rest of the player base that wants to actually see people die in pvp once in a while can come to an agreement "Stop nerfing the sources of damage and remove the *** cast times from ults"

I'm playing on EU, you really don't have to tell me what a Tank meta feels like.

Major defile or 100% penetration give you a lot of opportunity cost for no cost in your build.

People don't have to invest in offence or penetration making things obsolete and giving players the option to have the same (and more) offensive presence someone with 2 offensive sets has while they're playing in 2 defensive sets.

As i described above already major defile punishes squishy builds a lot more than tanks as tanks already have a much higher survivability as they take less damage and have sufficient heals.

Also the tank meta has been influenced far more by the increased health pools in conjunction with cast times as the increased HoTs (which are not an issue on their own) and the removal of almost any offensive CC rather than the removal of major defile.
PC EU had its fair share of major defile meta for 2 years till it got rightfully nerfed and it's safe to say that no one plays a squishy build anymore and any build that is not using major defile becomes obsolete.
With blastbones being the only skill that supports major defile with a decent uptime that can't be easily countered, we're heading into a meta of 1 spec and only 1 spec that will dominate the whole game.

I'm not complaining about blastbones being reliable, I've been complaining about them ever since they got clapped in the second elsweyr pts and I've been complaining about necros one dimensional offence in general.

But this complaint here is solely about major defile and how it'll negatively affect the meta till it gets removed.

Take off your squishy build in Cyrodiil and stop calling for nerfs because of it. Healing has been buffed a lot last patch and sources of Major Defile reduced. That's why there is a tank meta along with Dots nerfs. Bring on the Blastbones !

Zelos

Major defile isnt unhealthy for the game, even at 100% uptime. What's unhealthy is befoul, which can make defile 45% and minor as high as 20 or 25%. Making 65% reduced healing compared to 45% it should be if they are stacked. The befoul cp is what kills it.

xylena

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

You're right actually, face tanking multiple attackers while also healing allies is unhealthy gameplay at any skill level.

Squidgaurd

5one down the heals adjust purge so that it isnt as strong as it already is and nerf brp and other mitigation sets

OrderoftheDarkness

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Change major defile to minor? Or guarantee poison status effect? Add a dot component?

Regardless. On demand aoe defile that is reliably procced is too strong. This is why reverb got nerfed and it was single target

Reverb got nerf because first of all it's thematically stupid to have a defile on a shield stun associated with disease-causing. Second, it's a lot to have defile + stun. Third, it was to highlight class identity.
P. S. I still find it funny to look at Magplar with defile. This is really very funny the warrior of light is associated with rot.

Before Reverb got nerfed I could run all kinds of creative builds on Magplar. Since that nerf it's basically run 3 dmg sets or get tanked by any semi-defensive build for longer than I care to.

I would honestly prefer 5 sec TTK to the 5 min TTK that we currently have

Creativity builds is really a problem right now. Template builds frames are set. Now we change one or two abilities when building. Some classes are forced to give up class abilities and choose effective ones.

Zelos wrote: »

Major defile isnt unhealthy for the game, even at 100% uptime. What's unhealthy is befoul, which can make defile 45% and minor as high as 20 or 25%. Making 65% reduced healing compared to 45% it should be if they are stacked. The befoul cp is what kills it.

With befoul, you can overclock major / minor Defile to 40% / 20%. I ran like this in CP to learn how great the healing is. Players calmly healed a full column of health, as if they didn't feel -60% healing at all. I could only kill them with an explosion. Hylena correctly says the pressure is dead in this game at the moment, although it is one of the very interesting types of gameplay. Currently the game does not encourage you to run the build using a double Defile. It is better to use a more frequent or strong explosion.
P. S. About BRP DW, it is not as effective in CP compared to No-CP and BG. Because this is a % reduction in damage and in CP, everyone already has large resists. In addition, BRP DW works well only on Templar, with its type of weaving, for example on Necro very stretched explosion. It doesn't even make sense for him to use BRP DW. This set should be nerf I think Pirate skeleton was gutted precisely because of the easy access to Major Protection. This is bad gameplay for No-cp and BG.

Joy_Division

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

the “bad-players-shouldn’t-be-able-to-do-stuff” is my favorite argument

Chunky coming in with a hot take.

But he does have a point. Bad players should be able to still play in and enjoy PvP. Of course, block heal spam shouldn't be the reason why bad players are able to succeed. I've yet to see a single solution that means both solo players aren't frustrated and bad players are able to suceed still.

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players.

If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

Anhedonie

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Some people never learn.

juhislihis19

Anhedonie wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Some people never learn.

What? Blastbones was ridiculously overpowered when they introduced it. I vividly remember a video of someone hitting 100k damage with Blastbones in PVE.

Anyone who plays Necro, knows this will be a future topic of nerfing.

With current changes going Live, I got all stam classes, so I will just roll on my Necro, no skin of my ass. But can't no one deny we didn't raise a concern beforehand.

RealPhoenix

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Some people never learn.

What? Blastbones was ridiculously overpowered when they introduced it. I vividly remember a video of someone hitting 100k damage with Blastbones in PVE.

Anyone who plays Necro, knows this will be a future topic of nerfing.

With current changes going Live, I got all stam classes, so I will just roll on my Necro, no skin of my ass. But can't no one deny we didn't raise a concern beforehand.

Necros are already used extensively in PvE. The damage didnt change. Why should this affect PvE in any way?

The only thing this will affect is PvP, and if you ask me, in a good way. Blastbones will be a strong skill if it works, sure - but this skill is a big part of the class identity of necro and it should be usable. Also, major defile is good, but other classes have access to other great stuff aswell - 12s major protection and perma major heroism anyone?

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

We can go the route of buffing 4 other stam classes and 6 other mag classes to compensate for perma major defile on bb - but that´s not really likely is it?

Dogzey

Neoauspex wrote: »

Give it a cast time like Dark Flare. Need counters for healing, since healing is out of control right now.

No cast time please for the love of god.

Defile should just be removed though.

juhislihis19

RealPhoenix wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Some people never learn.

What? Blastbones was ridiculously overpowered when they introduced it. I vividly remember a video of someone hitting 100k damage with Blastbones in PVE.

Anyone who plays Necro, knows this will be a future topic of nerfing.

With current changes going Live, I got all stam classes, so I will just roll on my Necro, no skin of my ass. But can't no one deny we didn't raise a concern beforehand.

Necros are already used extensively in PvE. The damage didnt change. Why should this affect PvE in any way?

The only thing this will affect is PvP, and if you ask me, in a good way. Blastbones will be a strong skill if it works, sure - but this skill is a big part of the class identity of necro and it should be usable. Also, major defile is good, but other classes have access to other great stuff aswell - 12s major protection and perma major heroism anyone?

The damage of Blastbones was much higher when it got released on PTS, no? Used the 100k damage just to point out how much damage it used to do.

And comparing Necro to Warden is not, well comparable. ZOS strangely keeps on buffing Warden, even though no one is asking them to. In fact, I saw main-Wardens raising concerns about buffing Netch because they were afraid their class being too strong thus leading to future nerfs.

Major Heroism on the Shimmering has also been subject of criticism on the forums quite often.. Two wrongs don't make it right.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

access to major defile has proofed to be completely unhealthy for the game

Have you not played since 2016? This game desperately needs strong Defiles back. Bad players do not need to be able to face tank, and they definitely shouldn't be healing their entire zerg in the process.

I've been playing since 2014 and defiles aren't a way to solve any healing issues or people being too tanky especially when it's only available on one class that is already incredibly tanky.

Major defile won't even help you much as a solo player to burst through a 35k HP magplar and his buddies because you still won't get a clean kill and he'll just be healed again.
You on the other hand will feel the extra pressure a lot from major defile on any build and you'll be forced to either play stamnb which can't touch the magplars or the stamnecros and just cloak around or you have to build for more survivability at the cost of damage (or brp weapons they don't have lots of opportunity cost).

And then you'll start to realize how the pendulum has swung even more in favor of people with high health playing in groups as you had to give up more damage while they just got more pressure with the same healing and everything as before.

The issue in this patch isn't damage and it isn't healing or the absence of major defile.

The issue is easily achievable high health pools that increase the TTK just enough to be saved by hots and healbots due to casttimes and lack of offensive CCs giving everyone enough time to react to any damage spike in coming any lengthening the time of burst spikes which increases the chance the Hots keep ticking and prevent you from dying to the burst.

OrderoftheDarkness

BohnT2 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

access to major defile has proofed to be completely unhealthy for the game

Have you not played since 2016? This game desperately needs strong Defiles back. Bad players do not need to be able to face tank, and they definitely shouldn't be healing their entire zerg in the process.

I've been playing since 2014 and defiles aren't a way to solve any healing issues or people being too tanky especially when it's only available on one class that is already incredibly tanky.

Major defile won't even help you much as a solo player to burst through a 35k HP magplar and his buddies because you still won't get a clean kill and he'll just be healed again.
You on the other hand will feel the extra pressure a lot from major defile on any build and you'll be forced to either play stamnb which can't touch the magplars or the stamnecros and just cloak around or you have to build for more survivability at the cost of damage (or brp weapons they don't have lots of opportunity cost).

And then you'll start to realize how the pendulum has swung even more in favor of people with high health playing in groups as you had to give up more damage while they just got more pressure with the same healing and everything as before.

The issue in this patch isn't damage and it isn't healing or the absence of major defile.

The issue is easily achievable high health pools that increase the TTK just enough to be saved by hots and healbots due to casttimes and lack of offensive CCs giving everyone enough time to react to any damage spike in coming any lengthening the time of burst spikes which increases the chance the Hots keep ticking and prevent you from dying to the burst.

Warden created these problems... They are rewarded for maximum health.

Anhedonie

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Some people never learn.

What? Blastbones was ridiculously overpowered when they introduced it. I vividly remember a video of someone hitting 100k damage with Blastbones in PVE.

Anyone who plays Necro, knows this will be a future topic of nerfing.

With current changes going Live, I got all stam classes, so I will just roll on my Necro, no skin of my ass. But can't no one deny we didn't raise a concern beforehand.

The issue is not with Blast Bones. The issue is stale tanking meta and insane amount of healing.

olsborg

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.
There has been meta's before where major defile played a central role in how good it was...and that meta sucked for everyone not opting for running major defile. If we now reintroduce it ...to just one class having it at 100% uptime...it will once again suck pretty hard for everyone not using blastbones.
Even if you made it minor defile it would still be pretty darn strong.

Ariades_swe

Anhedonie wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason why blastbones has been terrible the past year is because people insisted it needed to be nerfed before it hit Live. Here we are one year later, and just when ZoS tries to make it worthwhile, here people are again insisting it needs to be nerfed before it hits Live.

Some people never learn.

What? Blastbones was ridiculously overpowered when they introduced it. I vividly remember a video of someone hitting 100k damage with Blastbones in PVE.

Anyone who plays Necro, knows this will be a future topic of nerfing.

With current changes going Live, I got all stam classes, so I will just roll on my Necro, no skin of my ass. But can't no one deny we didn't raise a concern beforehand.

The issue is not with Blast Bones. The issue is stale tanking meta and insane amount of healing.

The issue is with blast bones as well...
U even read what the OP wrote?

BaiterOfZergs

Major defile is strong and even stronger with its combined with a hard hitting skill. Think they could just add minor defile to it.

Also I believe players actually create metas when they warn people about them, this has happened several times in the past. It makes people want to try it out.

NordSwordnBoard

Just a few questions: Would increasing the cost lessen the 100% uptime issue?
Should it be more like Daedric curse, than a spammable/low cost?
What if the defile was delayed or was such that you remove defile from the previous target(s) by sending out blastbones on cooldown or too frequently?

ChunkyCat

What if people stopped healing so much.

BohnT2

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Just a few questions: Would increasing the cost lessen the 100% uptime issue?
Should it be more like Daedric curse, than a spammable/low cost?
What if the defile was delayed or was such that you remove defile from the previous target(s) by sending out blastbones on cooldown or too frequently?

Increasing the cost doesn't help at all because they want to keep things in their standardized forms.
Neither does delaying the defile help or removing it from previous targets as this would either only help in the first x seconds of a fight or would be even more punishing for outnumbered people as they could be affected by major defile all the time while they couldn't affect multiple people with it.

Major defile is the issue here and it will always be an issue because it's so potent, removes huge chunks of damage needed to kill people and in general help tanky targets more than squishy high damage builds as more tanky builds have a higher survivability and thus can just wear down their targets as major defile makes it incredibly easy to turn fights into the math game of:
How long does it take me to deplete my enemies health when i can reduce his heals just enough to deal him x damage per second?

That's incredibly frustrating as duels and fights are determined simply by you dying in X seconds and there's not many things you can do other than just playing more tanky or don't fight at all which leads us back to more players using more tanky builds

xylena

Joy_Division wrote: »

What's amusing is that the majority of people complaining that bad players shouldn't be able to do stuff don;t realize that they're bad players. If someone is constantly complaining that "over-performing" abilities and bad players with "crutches" are ruining they're 1vXs, I'm betting real money the core issue is user-error.

I'm not sure if this is in response to me, and it's kinda weird coming from someone with the "you are underperforming" quote in their sig, but I retract the part of the argument about player skill, that was me getting frustrated with the fact that we're probably never leaving the Tank Meta because it's apparently what the player base wants. People would rather sit there holding block and playing "who can stack the most healbots on the flag" than risk dying I guess.

BohnT2 wrote: »

You on the other hand will feel the extra pressure a lot from major defile on any build and you'll be forced to either play stamnb which can't touch the magplars or the stamnecros and just cloak around or you have to build for more survivability at the cost of damage (or brp weapons they don't have lots of opportunity cost).

Speak for yourself. I had no problem dealing with Defiles back when they were meta. Now? Defiles have less potency, lower uptime, and fewer sources, while the opposite can be said about Vitality, Mending, and healing in general. Are you making these arguments based on no-CP or something? There's probably no point to these conversations until the CP overhaul...

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

You on the other hand will feel the extra pressure a lot from major defile on any build and you'll be forced to either play stamnb which can't touch the magplars or the stamnecros and just cloak around or you have to build for more survivability at the cost of damage (or brp weapons they don't have lots of opportunity cost).

Speak for yourself. I had no problem dealing with Defiles back when they were meta. Now? Defiles have less potency, lower uptime, and fewer sources, while the opposite can be said about Vitality, Mending, and healing in general. Are you making these arguments based on no-CP or something? There's probably no point to these conversations until the CP overhaul...

No this is entirely based around CP both 1vX, small-scale and duels.
If you ever entered the salt desert you'd know how builds for the past years with major defile were and how they'll be again once major defile uptime goes through the roof again.

With blastbones a 100% major defile uptime is incredibly easy to maintain as you want to use the blastbones as frequently as possible and with the changes that's easily possible.


Just because people on NA are known for being slow to catch up on meta and just frankly play trash builds doesn't mean things aren't overperforming.
It took most players 6 months to catch up on vamp drain when it was known from week 1 of scalebreaker pts how powerful it would be.

Sure keep major defile on the blastbones but the results won't satisfy anyone who wants to see a less tanky and more skill based pvp environment.

xylena

BohnT2 wrote: »

If you ever entered the salt desert you'd know how builds for the past years with major defile were and how they'll be again once major defile uptime goes through the roof again.

I stopped trying to play this game competitively a while ago, but I was most into competitive dueling and small scale during the Defile meta. The salt desert was my home. I learned how to abuse Defiles, and how to counter them. Remember when Reverb lasted 10 seconds? Having Major Defile on you 100% of the fight was often a given, so even on something like a DK you learned how to use every defensive technique available, not just block heal. Defiles were great against players who thought they could just face tank anything. They weren't that great against damage shield Mag builds, kite roll cloak Stam builds, or any Templar that knew how to do damage and not dumpster their whole Mag pool panic purging.

In the current CP PvP meta, 100% Major Defile uptime isn't even scary. So many players heal through Defiles like they don't even exist. Everyone has 10% healing done and received from CP, without the sacrifices that entailed back when the CP cap was much lower, while Befoul CP got nerfed. BRP Resto is everywhere. Lots of little things have added up, like the "Healing Done" gear bonus being doubled from 2% to 4%. You know what's scary? How easily a strong Stamcro player is going to land instagib combos with Blastbones and Colossus. The Defile doesn't matter either way if you get one shotted.

BohnT2

xylena wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

If you ever entered the salt desert you'd know how builds for the past years with major defile were and how they'll be again once major defile uptime goes through the roof again.

I stopped trying to play this game competitively a while ago, but I was most into competitive dueling and small scale during the Defile meta. The salt desert was my home. I learned how to abuse Defiles, and how to counter them. Remember when Reverb lasted 10 seconds? Having Major Defile on you 100% of the fight was often a given, so even on something like a DK you learned how to use every defensive technique available, not just block heal. Defiles were great against players who thought they could just face tank anything. They weren't that great against damage shield Mag builds, kite roll cloak Stam builds, or any Templar that knew how to do damage and not dumpster their whole Mag pool panic purging.

In the current CP PvP meta, 100% Major Defile uptime isn't even scary. So many players heal through Defiles like they don't even exist. Everyone has 10% healing done and received from CP, without the sacrifices that entailed back when the CP cap was much lower, while Befoul CP got nerfed. BRP Resto is everywhere. Lots of little things have added up, like the "Healing Done" gear bonus being doubled from 2% to 4%. You know what's scary? How easily a strong Stamcro player is going to land instagib combos with Blastbones and Colossus. The Defile doesn't matter either way if you get one shotted.

First of all you're not going to be oneshotted by a stamcro not with health ranges of 28-32k unless you are a bad player.

Throwing major defile into the current meta isn't helpful by any means it's like trying to nuke a hurricane it just doesn't work.
You'll just create an even worse meta as people will refrain even more from investing in damage as major defile takes care of those needs especially when you outnumber people.

The meta has to be changed by other means but that's a discussion for another day and another post.