Vampires shouldn't get stronger the more they feed.

Deathlord92

snoozy wrote: »

honestly i'm just glad we're getting a decent feeding animation and probably a vamp lord ult

Completely agree with this same here.

AlienSlof

And please, let our vampires have FANGS!!!!

Thevampirenight

AlienSlof wrote: »

And please, let our vampires have FANGS!!!!

Oh they better have fangs or I'm going to be not happy.

Ysbriel

@ShadowHvo

Starving Vampire weakness in lore

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampires_of_the_Iliac_Bay
"I also found my weaknesses. I could no longer stand the light of the sun -- exposure to it for longer than a few seconds burned me terribly. It also pained me to enter temples and other places of worship. The worst effect, of course, had to be my blood lust. If I did not kill a warm blooded creature once a night and drink its blood, my hunger would gnaw at me, and any wounds I suffered would not heal no matter how much I rested."

Starving Vampire turns ravenous when hungry
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus

Entry 7: Imprisoned! Imprisoned in my own home! While I slept, Luktuv locked me in my own private chambers. She called to me through the doors, told me of her plan to escape with our unborn child. She means to keep my baby from me! When I get free, I will find the traitorous *** and rip the child from her very womb!
Entry 8: Two weeks. Two weeks have passed since Luktuv locked me in my quarters. Try as I might, I cannot free myself. I cannot breach the doors! If I don't feed soon, I feel I will go mad.
Entry 9: Food blood blood blood blood I need it I need blood need blood

Well feed Vampires described as "Powerful Clan that ousted all other competitors"
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood

I told him what I could. There was but one tribe in Cyrodiil, a powerful clan who had ousted all other competitors, much like the Imperials themselves had done. Their true name was unknown, lost in history, but they were experts at concealment. If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. They were cultured, more civilized than the vampires of the provinces, preferring to feed on victims while they were asleep, unaware.

Only ones described with their hunger being a sort of strength

"The Keerilth who could disintegrate into mist. The Yekef who swallowed men whole. The dread Telboth who preyed on children, eventually taking their place in the family, waiting patiently for years before murdering them all in their unnatural hunger."



In TES 5 Skyrim
Resist Frost: 25%
Weakness to Fire: 25%
Resist Frost: 20%
Weakness to Fire: 20%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 5 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -15 pts
2
Resist Frost: 50%
Weakness to Fire: 50%
Resist Frost: 30%
Weakness to Fire: 30%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Vampire's Seduction
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 10 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -30 pts
3
Resist Frost: 75%
Weakness to Fire: 75%
Resist Frost: 40%
Weakness to Fire: 40%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Vampire's Seduction
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 15 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -45 pts
4
Resist Frost: 100%
Weakness to Fire: 100%
Resist Frost: 50%
Weakness to Fire: 50%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Vampire's Seduction
Embrace of Shadows
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 20 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -60 pts


You can see that the only thing to get "stronger" is the resistance to Frost (being sons of coldharbour and pretty much dead)
and Vampiric Strength is just a unarmed combat boost, because vampires simply become more rabid and savage as their hunger gets stronger.



Here are some actual Lore Books, since you are saying is lore breaking, please give share your sources to backup your statement so this can be discussed with the proper lore source.

Galur Rithari's Papers by Galur Rithari
Immortal Blood by Anonymous
Journal of the Lord Lovidicus by Lord Lovidicus
Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum
Noxiphilic Sanguivoria by Cinna Scholasticus
Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie by Mabei Aywenil, Scribe
Trap by Anonymous
Vampires of the Iliac Bay
Vampires of Vvardenfell

Nerouyn

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Also, thank you for forever ruining the vampire lord form. A legendary, mystical creature capable of ultimate destruction, will now hit no harder than a wet bloody noodle.

I can't be bothered reading all 6 pages of responses. Possibly someone has already commented, but players won't be vampire lords.

Players don't join the Volkihar's. The abilities of Lamae Bal's followers are being re-imagined and since they're unique to ESO, lorewise they can do whatever they want with them.

Like giving them an elite transformation. Which isn't vampire lord.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

As a elder scrolls lore fan, in particular in regards to vampires... This is the worst possible chapter imaginable, and that's depressing.

I'd encourage you to brush up on the lore because you're wrong. Eg.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

A vampire becomes more dangerous the less they feed, their hunger increasing, their beastial urges takes over, making them more powerful, unpredictable and dangerous. Similarily, the more they feed, the lesser their monstrous urges become, and thus the more human and life-like they appear.

That has been the case for every strain of vampirism we've seen, but not every strain is the same.

Prior to Skyrim there hadn't been vampire lords.

Prior to ESO all of the vampires we'd seen had cause to fear or at least be irritated by sunlight.

Prior to ESO all of the vampires we'd seen had cause to fear being identified as a vampire because they're routinely be attacked on sight. In Morrowind vampires had to wear the Masque of Clavicus Vile to avoid that, except with the Telvanni. In ESO vampires stroll about towns - including the super anti vampire Summerset Isle ones - as if they're just regular people.

In the single player games, feeding is what returned a player to normal appearance. So that was the motivating factor to feed.

ESO's original implementation of feeding was true to the single-player games in terms of not feeding makes you stronger. But then probably the vast majority of vamp players then never fed again. That's not ideal on a number of levels. And it does make more sense for vampires to get stronger the more they feed, rather than less.

While it would have been better for them to get this right the first time, I don't mind them reversing this now. It's broken and needs to be fixed.

Faulgor

I get the feeling that many people are really confused that TES vampires gain strengths AND weaknesses the longer they go without feeding.

Nerouyn

Faulgor wrote: »

I get the feeling that many people are really confused that TES vampires gain strengths AND weaknesses the longer they go without feeding.

Do you play ESO? The sole weakness is to fire damage and in regular pve that's trivial.

Some dungeon / trial content with heavy fire boss attacks might require you to equip a fire resist enchant or lower vamp level.

It really is very heavily skewed towards bonuses.

LadyNalcarya

ShadowHvo wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Not all changes are bad. Drastic change in tone and themes is what gave us Morrowind.
Of course, I dont expect the new chapter's lore to be as good as original Morrowind, but still.
Nirn is not real world, and rules are not set in stone. A lot of religious stuff was changed from Arena/Daggerfall, but it didn't ruin the franchise. Dark Brotherhood now worships Sithis, not Mephala. Khajiits can be not just human-like, but also completely cat-like (and everything in between)... Etc. I just don't see why can't there be a vampire bloodline that works differently (especially since it already works differently).

The changes to the Dark Brotherhood and the Khajiit were, in my eyes, both positive, because it offered both a bigger and more unique identity rather than being another Morag Tong or another Bosmer-like race.

There can be vampire bloodlines that work differently, I will never argue against that, but they're literally changing an existing bloodline, rather than creating a new one, which is what they should've done with a change like this.

What they're doing now is not only a minor retcon, but forcing every player onto a new and disinteresting mechanic that doesn't align with the unique vampire represensation of the TES franchise, but rather a modernized vampirism thats a borderline copy of any modern vampire fiction.

It wouldn't surprise me if this entire change is aimed at VTMB2 fanbase, considering that this change is being released conveniently in time.

You literally don't know how it will be implemented and you're already claiming that new mechanics will be bad. ESO vampires lack "vampiric" gameplay and people only use vampirism for that 10% recovery boost, no wonder that devs decided to change it.
This is not the first time they drastically change something when they expand the lore. Cyrodiil was supposed to be covered in jungles until Oblivion, but I guess as a TES fan you would agree that Oblivion is a phenomenal game. Skyrim also drastically changed some lore, including vampiric lore, and it was a successful game. Even Morrowind was freaky and outlandish compared to Daggerfall, and even though its often considered to be one of the best ones, it was criticized back in the days for not following Daggerfall's footsteps.
If the changes actually expand lore/gameplay instead of just removing stuff (like they did with magic in Skyrim), then what's so bad about them?

alanmatillab16_ESO

Chrysa1is wrote: »

The stream literally just finished, and we already have our first whining neckbeard

We can be sure it wasn't that guy in the crowd that was yelling "YEAAAHH!" everytime they mentioned a feature. He was embarrassing.

Faulgor

Nerouyn wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I get the feeling that many people are really confused that TES vampires gain strengths AND weaknesses the longer they go without feeding.

Do you play ESO? The sole weakness is to fire damage and in regular pve that's trivial.

Some dungeon / trial content with heavy fire boss attacks might require you to equip a fire resist enchant or lower vamp level.

It really is very heavily skewed towards bonuses.

Yeah, the magnitude of the disadvantages are a complete joke in ESO. But they do increase with every stage.

Elwendryll

A bad mechanic shouldn't be impossible to change because of the lore.

Right now the vampirism mechanic is bad.
It's treated as a passive stat boost that makes you ugly.

It takes more effort to *not* benefit from the bonuses and side effects.

It has a weak identity. You can't really make a decent vampire themed build.

The proposed changes just make sense as a game mechanic. And it's not like it does not make any sense as a concept, because most occurrences of vampires in other media work like that. "Oh I'm weak, I need to feed to use my powers again".

I really don't see any downside to this, and we get new feeding animations etc...

I totally understand that some people want to mourn the established mechanism, and that's ok, but it shouldn't be in any way a reason to refuse a straight up better system.

Nordic__Knights

Red_Feather wrote: »

I love the change because it ties into the justice system. If you want to take advantage of vampire skill line you are going to have to feed on NPCs which is equivalent to stealing/murder.

You can simply feed on an target dummy as it is now so if they dont change that up no need to attack npc's

Fischblut

On top of it, they said the justice system will be part of the new vamp skills too. So being powerful but giving away you're a vamp?

In that case, I hope new vamp skills will be optional, because my vampires are no danger to citizens and they would like to stay that way.

this 4th stage vampirism.. like too much badly put gothic make-up, especially EYELINER, not scary at all!

I love the eyes of 4th stage vampires and it's important part of the look for me Not sure I will want to feed my vampires and reduce their gothic look.

Faulgor

Elwendryll wrote: »

A bad mechanic shouldn't be impossible to change because of the lore

It's not impossible to change. Improvements to vampirism are one of the most requested features.

But it can be improved within the lore. Claiming the opposite just sets up a false dichotomy.

Thevampirenight

Fischblut wrote: »

On top of it, they said the justice system will be part of the new vamp skills too. So being powerful but giving away you're a vamp?

In that case, I hope new vamp skills will be optional, because my vampires are no danger to citizens and they would like to stay that way.

this 4th stage vampirism.. like too much badly put gothic make-up, especially EYELINER, not scary at all!

I love the eyes of 4th stage vampires and it's important part of the look for me Not sure I will want to feed my vampires and reduce their gothic look.

I hope that stage four look is overhauled.To something more like this Fangs and glowing red or blue eyes. Would likely look better too.

Snowy_Wyndra_Karn

I can understand where you're coming from...

I can also understand vampires being able to control their urges the stronger they are.

If a vampire has not fed then i understand that they may go a little crazy.

Tommy_The_Gun

Why do I get the feeling that they will give invisibility / cloak skill to vampire & and at the same time make NB useless ? ? ?

Thevampirenight

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that they will give invisibility / cloak skill to vampire & and at the same time make NB useless ? ? ?

Vampires use to be able to go invisible for a small time. They removed that from the skill line a while back. Not sure if they will be doing a skill that allows that again for them.

Elwendryll

Faulgor wrote: »

It's not impossible to change. Improvements to vampirism are one of the most requested features.

But it can be improved within the lore. Claiming the opposite just sets up a false dichotomy.

It can be improved within the lore, yes. What I'm saying is that the lore shouldn't be absolute and prevent good gameplay and a well defined "power fantasy". Can we agree on that?

Drinking blood is something very central to the vampire theme. Right now, the game doesn't offer much to players who want to really embrace a vampire gameplay.

With this change, they make the players more invested in the vampire gameplay, and they put a spotlight on feeding, by making it more satisfying and visually cool.

What I'm saying is that it makes sense, they have clear intentions, and it is to make the vampire theme stronger, the "power fantasy" more present, and playing one satisfying and rewarding.

So, yes, the lore is important, but they made a decision that is good for the identity and the gameplay of vampires. "It does not follow the lore" is a valid argument against it, but it shouldn't systematically outweight the benefits, and in that case, it clearly doesn't.

MJallday

I’m actually quite happy about this change it means vamps won’t be lazy vamps just for the recovery passive

Nordic__Knights

They plan to do something cool with the game EVERYONE *** and moans about it the game runs like *** everybody white nights it you guys got your *** *** up

Faulgor

Elwendryll wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's not impossible to change. Improvements to vampirism are one of the most requested features.

But it can be improved within the lore. Claiming the opposite just sets up a false dichotomy.

It can be improved within the lore, yes. What I'm saying is that the lore shouldn't be absolute and prevent good gameplay and a well defined "power fantasy". Can we agree on that?

Lore shouldn't be absolute, but neither should a "power fantasy". We can have well-defined power fantasies of Dwemer machine guns powered by Soul Gems, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good fit for the lore. Games always have to make compromises between gameplay and lore - e.g. the simple fact that cities are always way too small in the games compared to what they should be - and some people like me feel that flipping vampires on their head is a bridge too far, that something unique has been lost. There's not much more of an argument to be made either way, either particular things are important to you or not.

Elwendryll wrote: »

With this change, they make the players more invested in the vampire gameplay, and they put a spotlight on feeding, by making it more satisfying and visually cool.

What will most likely happen is that feeding just becomes a nuisance that people circumvent by drinking a Bloody Mara or sinking their teeth into their target dummy. But we'll probably have to wait for specifics to judge the effect of these changes.

Elwendryll

Faulgor wrote: »

Lore shouldn't be absolute, but neither should a "power fantasy". [...] There's not much more of an argument to be made either way, either particular things are important to you or not.

Well. It's nice to see that you agree with me and that you just value things differently.

TheTwistedRune

Ysbriel wrote: »

@ShadowHvo

Starving Vampire weakness in lore

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampires_of_the_Iliac_Bay
"I also found my weaknesses. I could no longer stand the light of the sun -- exposure to it for longer than a few seconds burned me terribly. It also pained me to enter temples and other places of worship. The worst effect, of course, had to be my blood lust. If I did not kill a warm blooded creature once a night and drink its blood, my hunger would gnaw at me, and any wounds I suffered would not heal no matter how much I rested."

Starving Vampire turns ravenous when hungry
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus

Entry 7: Imprisoned! Imprisoned in my own home! While I slept, Luktuv locked me in my own private chambers. She called to me through the doors, told me of her plan to escape with our unborn child. She means to keep my baby from me! When I get free, I will find the traitorous *** and rip the child from her very womb!
Entry 8: Two weeks. Two weeks have passed since Luktuv locked me in my quarters. Try as I might, I cannot free myself. I cannot breach the doors! If I don't feed soon, I feel I will go mad.
Entry 9: Food blood blood blood blood I need it I need blood need blood

Well feed Vampires described as "Powerful Clan that ousted all other competitors"
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood

I told him what I could. There was but one tribe in Cyrodiil, a powerful clan who had ousted all other competitors, much like the Imperials themselves had done. Their true name was unknown, lost in history, but they were experts at concealment. If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. They were cultured, more civilized than the vampires of the provinces, preferring to feed on victims while they were asleep, unaware.

Only ones described with their hunger being a sort of strength

"The Keerilth who could disintegrate into mist. The Yekef who swallowed men whole. The dread Telboth who preyed on children, eventually taking their place in the family, waiting patiently for years before murdering them all in their unnatural hunger."



In TES 5 Skyrim
Resist Frost: 25%
Weakness to Fire: 25%
Resist Frost: 20%
Weakness to Fire: 20%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 5 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -15 pts
2
Resist Frost: 50%
Weakness to Fire: 50%
Resist Frost: 30%
Weakness to Fire: 30%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Vampire's Seduction
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 10 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -30 pts
3
Resist Frost: 75%
Weakness to Fire: 75%
Resist Frost: 40%
Weakness to Fire: 40%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Vampire's Seduction
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 15 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -45 pts
4
Resist Frost: 100%
Weakness to Fire: 100%
Resist Frost: 50%
Weakness to Fire: 50%
Vampiric Drain
Vampire's Servant
Vampire's Sight
Vampire's Seduction
Embrace of Shadows
Champion of the Night
Nightstalker's Footsteps
Vampiric Strength: 20 pts
Weakness to Sunlight: -60 pts


You can see that the only thing to get "stronger" is the resistance to Frost (being sons of coldharbour and pretty much dead)
and Vampiric Strength is just a unarmed combat boost, because vampires simply become more rabid and savage as their hunger gets stronger.



Here are some actual Lore Books, since you are saying is lore breaking, please give share your sources to backup your statement so this can be discussed with the proper lore source.

Galur Rithari's Papers by Galur Rithari
Immortal Blood by Anonymous
Journal of the Lord Lovidicus by Lord Lovidicus
Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum
Noxiphilic Sanguivoria by Cinna Scholasticus
Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie by Mabei Aywenil, Scribe
Trap by Anonymous
Vampires of the Iliac Bay
Vampires of Vvardenfell

Pretty sure vampiric drain got stronger with stage advancement as well. Since you have made a point to ask for sources that counter your argument, here it is.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Vampiric_Drain

Personally, I am not too fussed about the changes. Provided they do not change the aesthetic. Good looking vampires are lame IMO.

Grianasteri

Naftal wrote: »

Since there's no sunlight damage in ESO, I think it works better this way.

One of the most enjoyable aspects of being a vampire in Oblivion (I didnt really play much Skyrim), was creating your character so that it had enough health regen to negate the day time damage you took. Hey presto, day walker. I was really satisfied!

ESO, not so much, vampires walking around unhindered in broad daylight as par for the course... not sure about it, but it works I guess.

Rukia541

How does NOT FEEDING make you stronger? How does that make sense in any way at all? It makes way more sense to get stronger as you consume more blood.. I mean.. you're a fkn vampire.

TheFM

Contaminate wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

There’s no respect for lore present in ZOS’s decision making team. Bosmer lore completely ignored, Argonian lore completely ignored, Vampire lore completely ignored.

All of these will be debated multiple times, but ZOS only cares if people stop spending money. If people buy the chapter, that’s their go-ahead to keep crapping all over lore, because obviously people don’t care enough.

This is an mmo, they cannot use all the same passives from single player games in it. Yeesh.

Sorry if the playerbase expects some consistency when established lore dictates Bosmer have an innate affinity for stealth, but ESO decides they’re watchdogs instead to always be on the hunt for hidden enemies.

Sorry if Argonians have always been innately poison resistant, a fact that is still brought up in new content, but ESO decides to give them no poison resistance at all while telling players multiple times in the world that Argonians are supposed to be poison resistant.

Sorry if Elder Scrolls (and ESO) vampires have always had more power behind them when starved, at the cost of mental facilities and appearance detriments, but ESO has arbitrarily decided they will be less powerful instead and completely flip the mechanic five years later

There are vampires in elsweyr and eastmarch that get strength from feeding, so try again.

In grahtwood there are vampire clans that gain strength by eating their Prey whole, in one big bite, there are clans in blackmarsh that suck their prey completely dry. And yeah let's leave poison immunity on a race so that the entire stamina based gameplay was negated. Thank Sothis you people don't run a mmo.

The_Drop_Bear

ShadowHvo wrote: »

This goes directly against established Elder Scrolls canon, how could Leamon sign onto this?

A vampire becomes more dangerous the less they feed, their hunger increasing, their beastial urges takes over, making them more powerful, unpredictable and dangerous. Similarily, the more they feed, the lesser their monstrous urges become, and thus the more human and life-like they appear.

Why are you ruining Elder Scrolls vampire lore by turning it completely on its head?

Also, thank you for forever ruining the vampire lord form. A legendary, mystical creature capable of ultimate destruction, will now hit no harder than a wet bloody noodle.

As a elder scrolls lore fan, in particular in regards to vampires... This is the worst possible chapter imaginable, and that's depressing.

That's how it has always worked for players.
But in quests it's made pretty clear that the more a vampire drinks the more powerful they get.

noblecron

Technically the vampire lord form does get stronger the more you feed so ZOS is both right and wrong.

SpacemanSpiff1

sounds like more micromanagement. sooo fun