Vampires shouldn't get stronger the more they feed.

linoge63

Its about time this feeding change came ...the more life force a Vamp or anything has the more power, clarity and capability one has.

Siohwenoeht

linoge63 wrote: »

Its about time this feeding change came ...the more life force a Vamp or anything has the more power, clarity and capability one has.

Not in elder scrolls lore.

Contaminate

There’s no respect for lore present in ZOS’s decision making team. Bosmer lore completely ignored, Argonian lore completely ignored, Vampire lore completely ignored.

All of these will be debated multiple times, but ZOS only cares if people stop spending money. If people buy the chapter, that’s their go-ahead to keep crapping all over lore, because obviously people don’t care enough.

DarkMasterJMK

ShadowHvo wrote: »

This goes directly against established Elder Scrolls canon, how could Lemon sign onto this?

A vampire becomes more dangerous the less they feed, their hunger increasing, their beastial urges takes over, making them more powerful, unpredictable and dangerous. Similarily, the more they feed, the lesser their monstrous urges become, and thus the more human and life-like they appear.

Why are you ruining Elder Scrolls vampire lore by turning it completely on its head?

Also, thank you for forever ruining the vampire lord form. A legendary, mystical creature capable of ultimate destruction, will now hit no harder than a wet bloody noodle.

As a elder scrolls lore fan, in particular in regards to vampires... This is the worst possible chapter imaginable, and that's depressing.

In Oblivion's lore, only the Cyrodiilic vampires were supposed to work in that way, and the explanation as to why Cyrodiil's vampires became more mortal-like from feeding and stronger while starved was because of a deal that a particular vampire clan made with Clavicus Vile. Read the Oblivion in-game book Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum if you don't believe me.

Every single vampire in the entirety of Tamriel working the same way as the Cyrodiilic vampires was the blatant retcon here, and Skyrim was very blatantly inconsistent with vampire lore.

You'll also want to read Immortal Blood as well. That lore book features several unique takes on vampires other than the type portrayed in Oblivion. If anything, I would actually like them to feature a number of different kinds of vampires that exist in lore in the Elder Scrolls games instead of just one. Perhaps they could even feature the Cyrodiil Vampyrum from Oblivion somewhere in ESO.

Langeston

ShadowHvo wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

If this goes against lore (which it doesn't, not entirely) then I am willing to accept it. Lore exists to serve the game and with this, being a vampire will finally, FINALLY mean more than just "ooh magicka passive". Excellent change, cannot wait.

Yes it does.

Vampires get stronger the less they feed, that is how it has always been. This turns it around.

The problem with the current iteration of the vampire is that there are no downsides to the strengths. I don't see how this changes anything, but ruining established lore.

You obviously don't PVP. 25% increased flame damage is huge — I consider basically getting 1-hit by MagDKs & Dawnbreakers to be a pretty significant downside. Hell, fighters guild skills in general are pretty deadly. The lack of health regen isn't particularly great either.

SydneyGrey

I tried playing vampire once and didn't like it, so had my character cured.
Looks like I'll be trying out vampirism again once the changes go live. I'm intrigued.

ShadowHvo

Contaminate wrote: »

There’s no respect for lore present in ZOS’s decision making team. Bosmer lore completely ignored, Argonian lore completely ignored, Vampire lore completely ignored.

All of these will be debated multiple times, but ZOS only cares if people stop spending money. If people buy the chapter, that’s their go-ahead to keep crapping all over lore, because obviously people don’t care enough.

I'm so very disappointed in myself, that I've never leapt into the Bosmer or Argonian threads, for now it is vampire lore fans' turn to receive the golden shower of neglect.

I cannot believe that the universe I've loved for so long, and had so many fond memories, are soon to shatter the core element that drew me to the series in the first place.

Gilvoth

i Love it that we now get stronger the More we feed
(in the next update)
been wanting this for a Long Long time.
it gives reason to Be a Vampire!
i hope it stays that way.

EmEm_Oh

ShadowHvo wrote: »

This goes directly against established Elder Scrolls canon, how could Lemon sign onto this?

A vampire becomes more dangerous the less they feed, their hunger increasing, their beastial urges takes over, making them more powerful, unpredictable and dangerous. Similarily, the more they feed, the lesser their monstrous urges become, and thus the more human and life-like they appear.

Why are you ruining Elder Scrolls vampire lore by turning it completely on its head?

Also, thank you for forever ruining the vampire lord form. A legendary, mystical creature capable of ultimate destruction, will now hit no harder than a wet bloody noodle.

As a elder scrolls lore fan, in particular in regards to vampires... This is the worst possible chapter imaginable, and that's depressing.

How about we compromise and let's say the more a Vampire eats...the fatter they get.

Will need larger outfits.

ShadowHvo

DarkMasterJMK wrote: »

In Oblivion's lore, only the Cyrodiilic vampires were supposed to work in that way, and the explanation as to why Cyrodiil's vampires became more mortal-like from feeding and stronger while starved was because of a deal that a particular vampire clan made with Clavicus Vile. Read the Oblivion in-game book Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum if you don't believe me.

Every single vampire in the entirety of Tamriel working the same way as the Cyrodiilic vampires was the blatant retcon here, and Skyrim was very blatantly inconsistent with vampire lore.

You'll also want to read Immortal Blood as well. That lore book features several unique takes on vampires other than the type portrayed in Oblivion. If anything, I would actually like them to feature a number of different kinds of vampires that exist in lore in the Elder Scrolls games instead of just one. Perhaps they could even feature the Cyrodiil Vampyrum from Oblivion somewhere in ESO.

I've read Immortal Blood, and every other vampire lore article more times than I can count.

I agree that it would be best to have a variety of bloodlines introduced, that would also offer the players a selection of the strain that they wish to experience. However, I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of the included game mechanics. The lore of the Cyrodiil Vampyrum Order neither supports nor rejects the mechanic.

I see it solely for what I believe it is inteded for: To give the player a risk and reward playstyle that rewards feeding, and starvation in meaningful ways, both having their positives and negatives.

That is something that ESO always lacked, and something they should've rectified. But unfortunately, they chose bastardization instead.

Kidgangster101

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

On the plus side, vampires won’t need to wear a skin anymore to not look hideous since you will want to stay fed.

They said it was the opposite lol. So the more you feed the uglier you get. Makes zero sense to me why they are reversing it (unless they change passives for wanting you to eat which hurts pvp because you will have to keep eating mid group to stay Max strength)

Langeston

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

On the plus side, vampires won’t need to wear a skin anymore to not look hideous since you will want to stay fed.

Nope, they reversed that too: the well-fed vampires are now the hideous ones.

@Langeston Wait, did they say that anywhere? I didn't hear that part... If so, that makes even less sense than the power. The moment a vampire bites you, you immediately turn super ugly so that literally everyone around you immediately knows "Oh, he got bit". So no secret involved anymore. That can't be right...

Yes, the guy said something along the lines of "yeah, and now it's when you feed that your appearance changes." (Not verbatim.) Basically, the most powerful stage (1, 4 whatever it's going to be called) is still the ugly stage.

ShadowHvo

Langeston wrote: »

You obviously don't PVP. 25% increased flame damage is huge — I consider basically getting 1-hit by MagDKs & Dawnbreakers to be a pretty significant downside. Hell, fighters guild skills in general are pretty deadly. The lack of health regen isn't particularly great either.

I'm not massively into PvP, no. Though my main character, which has been a vampire since the early access, never cured, is a Praetorian Grade 2.

It's a good downside, and one I've always been happy for. However, such a downside has largely been irrelevant in PvE content, which is why Vampirism should've been tied into the Justice system from the very launch of it.

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

How about we compromise and let's say the more a Vampire eats...the fatter they get.

Will need larger outfits.

Hell yeah, lets go!....

lmao. awesome for that.

Thevampirenight

I do think Vampire stage one is okay looking I don't want to see that changed. Other then fixing the tattoo issues and maybe making it look a little less pale I do want to see an overhaul to the looks of stage three and four.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

There is a couple of dialogue lines etc in ESO that supports the "Feeding makes you stronger." so it's not completely out of the blue.

ShadowHvo

Thevampirenight wrote: »

I do think Vampire stage one is okay looking I don't want to see that changed. Other then fixing the tattoo issues and maybe making it look a little less pale I do want to see an overhaul to the looks of stage three and four.

That's where I'm in complete disagreement, I love the look of stage 4. It is monstrous, visceral, dangerous and deathly.

Exactly like a famished hunter of the night should.

Ohgod, if they remove my Stage 4 skin, ouuuuuugh. I'm gone for good, for thats the visual core of my character just gone.

Xvorg

I don't think there´s a problem with vamps. I mean, this is not Porphyric Haemophilia (the disease in Morrowind and Oblivion) or Sanguinare Vampiris (The one in SKyrim).. it is Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, so they can do whatever they want with this disease... unless they change the disease to one of the mentioned above (case in which they will be, indeed, destroying lore)

That said... I think the whole rework on vampirism is too much and again a decision taken from a popular contest that does nothing to improve game experience.

Sad thing. ZoS is mostly cared on selling copies than fixing what we have.

TheFM

ShadowHvo wrote: »

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Considering that not only does the most popular vampire mod for skyrim do exactly this, it's something that people have been asking for since the beginning since as it stands right now there's zero point in feeding. Everyone I know just gets to level 4 and leaves it there...the whole feeding mechanic might as well not even exist in the game.

Which is a fault with the lack of negatives to the higher stages. Vampires shouldn't be accepted in towns at Stage 4, as it is proper to TES canon. Hell, add in bloody sunlight damage too, and we can have a proper vampire experience. But we're getting neither.

This update gives everyone far more reason to be a vampire, than it already did.

I don't want Dragons to cosplay as Thomas the Tank Engine, but that too was a popular mod.

There are many many different types of vampires in TES lore, some take sun damage, some do not.

Gnortranermara

ShadowHvo wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

They're not adding more, they're changing an existing bloodline.

I otherwise agree with you.

I dunno, I was admittedly distracted during the stream, but it seemed to me like the Blood Scion skill line is an optional add-on to the base Vampire skill line. Just don't become a Blood Scion. I guess we'll see more implementation details on PTS ::shrug::

I fear this is incorrect.

An irrational fear, I think. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but it just doesn't look that way. They've said the words "the new skill line" idk how many times during the stream. Vamp is not just a single skill line anymore. Reason through it: what skills will your Blood Scion cast when in the Blood Scion form? They're not going to let Vampire Lords run around throwing Sweeps and Flame Whips and Force Pulses. The Blood Scion form must have its own separate skill line which only functions during the ulti transformation (like the Werewolf line). There's no reason whatsoever to suggest that this Blood Scion skill line would entirely replace the basic vampire skill line (which sounds like it will incorporate a variety of "traditional" humanoid vampire capabilities). It makes more sense to supplement it. You're jumping to a conclusion here that seems very unlikely. Wait for PTS, at least. Things are looking good so far.

ShadowHvo

TheFM wrote: »

There are many many different types of vampires in TES lore, some take sun damage, some do not.

Indeed.

But that doesn't change the fact that they're drastically retconing Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, or going directly against the established canon of the unique interpretation of vampires, and how their prowess function in relation to feeding, in the Elder Scrolls setting.

I've always said I wish we had sun damage, and got hunted by NPCs in the late stages. But thats just me dreaming for the proper vampire experience.

ShadowHvo

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

An irrational fear, I think. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but it just doesn't look that way. They've said the words "the new skill line" idk how many times during the stream. Vamp is not just a single skill line anymore. Reason through it: what skills will your Blood Scion cast when in the Blood Scion form? They're not going to let Vampire Lords run around throwing Sweeps and Flame Whips and Force Pulses. The Blood Scion form must have its own separate skill line which only functions during the ulti transformation (like the Werewolf line). There's no reason whatsoever to suggest that this Blood Scion skill line would entirely replace the basic vampire skill line (which sounds like it will incorporate a variety of "traditional" humanoid vampire capabilities). It makes more sense to supplement it. You're jumping to a conclusion here that seems very unlikely. Wait for PTS, at least. Things are looking good so far.

They outright stated that they're reworking the current vampire skill-line, to this new alteration that doesn't corrospond to existing lore of how the stages function.

Don't get me wrong, I'll love to be proven completely and utterly wrong, for I just want to keep the current iteration, but improved to fit in with the justice system. But I do heavily doubt it from the wording that they used during the livestream.

Starlock

It's a good change.

One of the hallmarks of the Elder Scrolls series is fluid and at times deliberately ambiguous lore. This is a good way to approach storytelling for a variety of reasons, none the least of which is that it provides flexibility in telling new stories and creating game mechanics that are fun and engaging.

It seems hard to argue that the original mechanic of vampires getting stronger the less they acted like vampires (aka, fed on mortals) is particularly fun or engaging for the player. There's a reason why vampire mods nearly always modify this mechanic and replace it with something else. When established lore makes for unengaging game play, I'm all for changing it (within reason). This change is not only within reason, it's a welcome one.

TheFM

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

They're not adding more, they're changing an existing bloodline.

I otherwise agree with you.

I dunno, I was admittedly distracted during the stream, but it seemed to me like the Blood Scion skill line is an optional add-on to the base Vampire skill line. Just don't become a Blood Scion. I guess we'll see more implementation details on PTS ::shrug::

I fear this is incorrect.

The player character by definition, is already the Scion of Lamae Bal. It's why we're given the book, too.

Yes from what I gathered is they are overhauling it. The vampire lord form will be added to the base and the vampire quest is getting overhauled as well.

Did they actually show the blood Scion ult to be a Vampire Lord? If so, another blow to canon and lore.

Zos and Beth make the lore, if they want to change it, they can. IT isnt non fiction history.

TheFM

Contaminate wrote: »

There’s no respect for lore present in ZOS’s decision making team. Bosmer lore completely ignored, Argonian lore completely ignored, Vampire lore completely ignored.

All of these will be debated multiple times, but ZOS only cares if people stop spending money. If people buy the chapter, that’s their go-ahead to keep crapping all over lore, because obviously people don’t care enough.

This is an mmo, they cannot use all the same passives from single player games in it. Yeesh.

Ratzkifal

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

There is a couple of dialogue lines etc in ESO that supports the "Feeding makes you stronger." so it's not completely out of the blue.

@NotaDaedraWorshipper I haven't done the Rivenspire quests yet (save the best for last as they say). I'm guessing that's where it is. Can you try to find the quote and put it here? That would be really interesting.

Ratzkifal

Starlock wrote: »

It's a good change.

One of the hallmarks of the Elder Scrolls series is fluid and at times deliberately ambiguous lore. This is a good way to approach storytelling for a variety of reasons, none the least of which is that it provides flexibility in telling new stories and creating game mechanics that are fun and engaging.

It seems hard to argue that the original mechanic of vampires getting stronger the less they acted like vampires (aka, fed on mortals) is particularly fun or engaging for the player. There's a reason why vampire mods nearly always modify this mechanic and replace it with something else. When established lore makes for unengaging game play, I'm all for changing it (within reason). This change is not only within reason, it's a welcome one.

That last part is indeed very much valid. Feeding is something you want to be doing when you choose to be a vampire and that's not something we currently have in ESO. But I do think that we don't need to reverse the whole "starving makes your vampirism more severe and your power go up" thing to achieve that. It would be enough if stage 4 makes you be attacked on sight by guards and if you advance the skill line by feeding.

ShadowHvo

Starlock wrote: »

It's a good change.

One of the hallmarks of the Elder Scrolls series is fluid and at times deliberately ambiguous lore. This is a good way to approach storytelling for a variety of reasons, none the least of which is that it provides flexibility in telling new stories and creating game mechanics that are fun and engaging.

It seems hard to argue that the original mechanic of vampires getting stronger the less they acted like vampires (aka, fed on mortals) is particularly fun or engaging for the player. There's a reason why vampire mods nearly always modify this mechanic and replace it with something else. When established lore makes for unengaging game play, I'm all for changing it (within reason). This change is not only within reason, it's a welcome one.

I disagree with your assessment of it being within reason, for had it been within reason, it would adhere to lore while proving itself as a fun and enjoyable mechanic.

This does nothing, but turning vampirism on its head. Now you need to starve yourself to appear more humane, to appear healthy and recover your mortality, while you need to continuously consume blood to appear monstrous and famished.

The old iteration, no less of how it played in both Oblivion and pre-Dawnguard Skyrim, offered sensible and true to lore advantages and disadvantages to the stages.

The famished vampires whom denied themselves the sanguine delights grew more monstrous, their vessels changing for the worse in exchange for heightened prowess, allowing themselves to become more in tune with the monster they truly are. While those whom wish to mingle with civil society were forced to prey upon the very populous they attempted to hide within, to forever keep their monstrous nature sated so that it may remain behind lock and key.

This new retcon? Yeah, that ruins the unique vampire fantasy that the TES franchise have long provided.

They should've improved the current system, rather than trashing it completely. I really do not see why they didn't. In fact, it actually shocks me.

Thevampirenight

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

What is unique about the vampires still is they are not undead but unliving that will not change. Vampires can eat, drink, drown that is shown and I doubt will change throughout the various games. Your right they are unique. Just not in the way you think they are. They are mortals with a curse that alters the body into a death like state. They are not reanimated corpses or act like the d&d vampires do. They have inverted the tropes with them. All they are doing is make it so they are stronger when well fed does not change the fact if your a vampire hoping to explore underwater your going to drown just like any other typical mortal. Because you are an unliving being. Sorry you think your undead think again.

You're literally wrong, but ok.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Arena:_Undead
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_(Daggerfall)

It was with morrowind that vampirism was changed to its own enemy category.

ESO Vampires even have the Undeath passive, and so too do people claim it in several ingame lore books. Often referred to as a state of undeath.

Well that is because of common belief and superstition. Many can't tell the difference between vampirism or necromancy and the lore clearly states they are considered by many to be what the d&d vampire is a reanimated corpse. When in reality they are inverted and the opposite from a d&d vampire. While undead are considered false life. Vampires got to be considered a form of false death. Do to how the condition has worked. The passive should be called Unliving fortitude.
It is unique that many think of them like d&d vampires when clearly they are not.

I believe they did it this way to move away from the common d&d and vampire tropes. As the first two games were basically a home brewed d&d campaign that changed with Morrowind. So they moved away from it.

Then why does Dawnbreaker work on them the same as it would undead as well as spells that cause fear to undead?

I think its because it can't determine between unliving and undead or was designed to hurt both. Maybe its energy. Also got to bring up Forswarn Briarhearts. They are false life given life. Detect living spells worked on them but the turn undead spells Work on them. In Eso we learn that the mages guild later modified soul trap to make it so they wouldn't work on those with black souls. The way the magicka works. It can be shaped if one has the knowledge to do so. The Turn undead spells would not work on the vampires of morrowind and Cyrodiil. So the version of turn undead taught in both regions didn't have the means to target them. As the Skyrims version did. It could be it was designed to target vampires as well and can turn undead and unliving because of this. The fighters guild old version of turn undead also targeted daedra and werewolves so that was designed to target those beings. So I think it is determined more by targeting certain types of beings in the formation of the spell created. So a more advanced form of spellcrafting that we have never been taught to do that maybe only certain people are taught to limit what people could do with magicka.

. The Mages guild likely only teaches the limited form of Turn undead at least in the third era but the College of Winterhold had the better spells. Turn undead will turn undead but vampires being unliving the spell has to target the unliving for it to work on the unliving. Restorition spells could have also be altered to make it to as easy to heal either the undead or unliving with this same principle. If they wanted to exclude such beings. I think magicka could be altered to exclude them too.

iCaliban

The current lore is incredibly stupid. If feeding makes a vampire weaker why would they ever do it?

OP just accept a retcon. Its not a big deal especially when previous lore meant so little

Starlock

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I disagree with your assessment of it being within reason, for had it been within reason, it would adhere to lore while proving itself as a fun and enjoyable mechanic.

What would be your way of doing that for this game?

ShadowHvo wrote: »

This does nothing, but turning vampirism on its head. Now you need to starve yourself to appear more humane, to appear healthy and recover your mortality, while you need to continuously consume blood to appear monstrous and famished.

We don't actually know that's how it is going to work yet. We don't know a lot of things. We know that they're reversing the general progression and at the same time redoing the vampire skill line. We don't know how those two things are going to interact with one another, or with character appearance. We can assume that they will interact in some way, but beyond that, we'll just need to wait to learn more.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

This new retcon? Yeah, that ruins the unique vampire fantasy that the TES franchise have long provided.

I guess that depends on how you understood that fantasy. Personally, I never liked it. Have you ever used the Sacrosanct mod for Skyrim? What if the new system works something like that?