Is healing over preforming or is the true issue counter play and lack of it being universal.

phoenixkungfu

Hi everyone, it is my belief that healing in game is pretty high. So much so that some classes are hard to kill. But is the issue high heal or counter play. I believe its counter play and lack of access to it. I believe healing focus build should
have better counter gameplay. THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL OPTION TO COUNTER HEALING THAT IS VIABLE. You are at a disadvantage against a class that has class major defile in its tool kit. Major defile is not universal. It is also my belief as a fact that no matter the class. A universal mechanic is the ability to manage a hp bar. Therefore ALL CLASS USE HEALING. Furthermore it is my belief that the cp system should apply a way to apply the cp skill befoul universally. I also believe befoul in the cp tree should be applied as a action in the cp tree's. And example would be to replace siphoned with defile. As stated before I believe all classes should have access to major defile. I also wouldn't mind seeing major defile increase to 35% or a higher number after testing have been done.

jcm2606

The problem isn't so much healing in itself, nor dedicated healers. Rather, the problem is cross and off healing, specifically with magicka DPS.

With Scalebreaker, both DoT's and HoT's were buffed, with a few HoT's being reworked to have more obvious group morphs. These buffs balanced each other out, and, in some cases, tipped the scales away from healing, as DoT's could easily overwhelm HoT's.

With Dragonhold, they nerfed DoT's and removed some burst options, while leaving HoT's as they were, which has left healing super strong, in a meta where damage is rather low.

With healing being super strong, and a few HoT's having more obvious group morphs, the game has been pushed into a meta where DPS can just run the group morphs of these HoT's (namely Radiating Regeneration), and not only apply a super strong HoT on themselves, but on nearby allies, too. From a DPS. See the problem, here?

Dedicated healers aren't the problem, because they're not the cause of this. The tools of dedicated healers have been buffed, but these same tools can be used on DPS, with even higher tooltips due to the stronger offensive stats DPS builds tend to offer. Since there's so much more DPS than dedicated healers in a group, dedicated healers really aren't needed, unless nobody runs these HoT's.

The solution to this is to bring the overperforming group HoT morphs back in line, while also making sure the self morphs are actually functional (Rapid Regen applies to the lowest ally, not just to yourself, so by nerfing Radiating Regen, you're removing the only reliable morph magicka DPS have, if they're using this as a self heal).

Take some power out of individual heals, put that power back into using a variety of heals, hence putting power back into dedicated healers, since DPS can't afford to slot every heal. That way, DPS can still heal themselves, without providing a ton of cross and off healing for the group, which brings dedicated healers back into the fold, since they can actually do their jobs instead of being overshadowed by the dozen or so DPS running Radiating Regen on back bar.

phoenixkungfu

I disagree, sometimes to take a step back is better than taking a step forward. The direction of healer is wrong. He's why, being a heal overall sucks, IN ANY GAME. Go to any mmo and finding a healer is 1 of the hardest things to find. It's because of the cool factor. Make healing fun aka op. Let healer feel like the dark Phoenix from the x man. give healing staff god healing mode. Let everyone feel like thanos. Let healer spam heals then.MAKE HEALING CAP AT 4 PEOPLE( maybe 6). Revert the changes
That's the answer. In my opinion.

Back on topic for pvp the solution is very very eazy. FOR PATCHES ITS BEEN adjust this, adjust that. For patches it's been this formula.
When the root of the issue is COUNTER PLAY. It's not universal. EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAL THERE HP BAR. THIS IS UNIVERSAL. So make major defile have a much much LARGER PART IN THE GAMEPLAY. Let all class have access to it. Do a rework In the cp tree. Increase defile amount at base with a universal application. Let everyone have counter play to healing. IT A DISADVANTAGE NOT TO HAVE MAJOR DEFILE IN YOUR CLASS.
Basically like everyone suck the healing out of everyone. Creating faster gameplay
then healer will be needed again.

Zer0_CooL

Is @phoenixkungfu such an incapable player that he has to demand dk nerfs and sorc buffs (the allegedly strongest pvp class)?

phoenixkungfu

You can try for the "it cool to talk about another's play opinion technic" but facts are your only opinion on the matter is a bias fo another player. You offer very little opinion as value on topic. Until you offer value your opinion on another's play opinion is meaningless in this player viewpoint. Please have value and dont offer distraction on topic. There is plenty other places to do that.

Zer0_CooL

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

...but facts are your only opinion on the matter is a bias fo another player...

No where did i make a statement containing my oppinion. I just see that all your threads demanding changes that would be beneficial for sorcs. Which leads me to that Question. All im doing is asking questions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jcm2606

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

You can try for the "it cool to talk about another's play opinion technic" but facts are your only opinion on the matter is a bias fo another player. You offer very little opinion as value on topic. Until you offer value your opinion on another's play opinion is meaningless in this player viewpoint. Please have value and dont offer distraction on topic. There is plenty other places to do that.

I'm trying for the "it cool to talk about another's play opinion technic" because you're talking about things you clearly don't understand.

The current problem with healing is what I've explained. Go to any high end PvP stream or Discord server or whatever, ask "why is healing so strong right now", and I can guarantee you'll get something similar to what I said, because that is why healing is so strong.

Last patch, it was buffed alongside damage to match the increase in damage, while this patch, it hasn't been nerfed alongside damage to match the decrease in damage. Last patch, healing == damage. This patch, healing > damage. It's really not that hard.

It's very clear that you haven't played high end group PvP much (or, it seems any sort of mid to high end PvP at all, at least not on anything that isn't a petsorc), which is fine. Everyone had to start somewhere, and it's not realistic to expect someone to know everything the moment they start.

What isn't fine is starting discussions on these things you know nothing about, being told you're wrong, and basically going "no u" and ignoring all feedback. Nobody should seriously talk about things they know nothing about, and not expect to be told they know nothing about what they're talking about.

Hop off the forums, jump in game, keep playing group PvP. Make some new characters, try out PvP on other classes so you know what you're talking about when discussing their skills and playstyles. It's clear you don't have much experience. I'm sorry, but it is.

InvitationNotFound

great, another nerf thread.

nerf this, nerf that, reduce the targets. and so on. I have some news for you. Healing already got nerfed (e.g. springs). Hots do not hit everyone (e.g. echoing vigor hits 6 people, always the same if they don't take damage - mutagen (not sure if the right morph) only hits 3 players).

Healing in its current state isn't the issue.

phoenixkungfu

I respectfully disagree, I feel the game and high end players opinion. Is not the only opinion that matters. I have 247 days played on 1 character and basically I played the the game from many different perspectives. Sorry but I can't just sit back and allow a clear view point given on universal gameplay mechanics. Be called anything other the a veteran player viewpoint. I believe some of the issue with the game is there isn't enough representation of the everyday player. Not the youtuber but the player working hard to get to the next level in game. The everyday joe that simply love the game for the game. To that player the definition is not your definition of what class ranks higher then the next class. I feel alot of players of the game has lost there way of what makes the game great
TO PLAY AS YOU WANT
So I ask is there a universal gameplay mechanics that apply defile

Is player hp bar apart of the game. For all player

Is player in charge of hp management. For all player.
THE ANSWER IS YES FOR ALL PLAYERS

Is there at base class gameplay only a select few class that have counter or prevention of healing to hp bar.
YES
Sorry but your veiw point have been proven wrong.

This is the topic and universal issue. Please dont pull a slide of hand to divert attention elsewhere. You guys are better then that.

phoenixkungfu

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

great, another nerf thread.

nerf this, nerf that, reduce the targets. and so on. I have some news for you. Healing already got nerfed (e.g. springs). Hots do not hit everyone (e.g. echoing vigor hits 6 people, always the same if they don't take damage - mutagen (not sure if the right morph) only hits 3 players).

Healing in its current state isn't the issue.

I agree with healing in the current state isn't the issue. It's the lack of counter play. You might not of read the post before but as stated that's just my opinion on the topic.

Ragnarock41

''Healing isn't the issue''

Meanwhile in reality , healing literally got buffed through the roof

InvitationNotFound

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Healing isn't the issue''

Meanwhile in reality , healing literally got buffed through the roof

Not really. Spring spam was certainly performing better than the current healing (in regards of hots). Further heals have been nerfed as well.

Maybe we should distinguish between group and solo hots as i'm only referring to the group aspect. At least in no-cp (and yes, there might be as well a difference between cp and no-cp) echoing vigor shouldn't be able to out heal a dot (at least from my last calculations, but that's been while...). You'll have to rely on multiple hots and other heals. Other heals didn't really change with the last two updates.

So no, i do not consider this to be the issue here.

And i would be very careful with nerf threads. Most of the time, the way ZOS implements the nerfs, you wish they didn't touch the skill / class.

phoenixkungfu

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Healing isn't the issue''

Meanwhile in reality , healing literally got buffed through the roof

Not really. Spring spam was certainly performing better than the current healing (in regards of hots). Further heals have been nerfed as well.

Maybe we should distinguish between group and solo hots as i'm only referring to the group aspect. At least in no-cp (and yes, there might be as well a difference between cp and no-cp) echoing vigor shouldn't be able to out heal a dot (at least from my last calculations, but that's been while...). You'll have to rely on multiple hots and other heals. Other heals didn't really change with the last two updates.

So no, i do not consider this to be the issue here.

And i would be very careful with nerf threads. Most of the time, the way ZOS implements the nerfs, you wish they didn't touch the skill / class.

I'm really not calling for a nerf in my eyes. I know it come off as 1 but I'm not asking for a nerf. I'm asking for all class healing skills to remain the same. And buff healing staff. Healing springs. To spamable maybe 3 max.

Give all classes a form of major defile. In class, this is a buff.
Which will create a balance playing field. To allow player to play as they want.

Nerftheforums

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, I feel the game and high end players opinion. Is not the only opinion that matters. I have 247 days played on 1 character and basically I played the the game from many different perspectives. Sorry but I can't just sit back and allow a clear view point given on universal gameplay mechanics. Be called anything other the a veteran player viewpoint. I believe some of the issue with the game is there isn't enough representation of the everyday player. Not the youtuber but the player working hard to get to the next level in game. The everyday joe that simply love the game for the game. To that player the definition is not your definition of what class ranks higher then the next class. I feel alot of players of the game has lost there way of what makes the game great
TO PLAY AS YOU WANT
So I ask is there a universal gameplay mechanics that apply defile

Is player hp bar apart of the game. For all player

Is player in charge of hp management. For all player.
THE ANSWER IS YES FOR ALL PLAYERS

Is there at base class gameplay only a select few class that have counter or prevention of healing to hp bar.
YES
Sorry but your veiw point have been proven wrong.

This is the topic and universal issue. Please dont pull a slide of hand to divert attention elsewhere. You guys are better then that.

Excuse me, wtf? Were you there when defile was literally on every third skill in the game? Were you there when defile was freaking spammable (reverb? With 9s defile on it?)? Were you there when people were running around in sloads and durok's, killing people by blocking and bashing? Were you there when incap used to stun and defile you for a fuckton because every decent player and their mother had at least a 39% defile tt?

Veteran player my ass, you are just someone who poured too many hours in a game and didn't play half an hour at an ok (not even good) pvp level.

phoenixkungfu

Nerftheforums wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, I feel the game and high end players opinion. Is not the only opinion that matters. I have 247 days played on 1 character and basically I played the the game from many different perspectives. Sorry but I can't just sit back and allow a clear view point given on universal gameplay mechanics. Be called anything other the a veteran player viewpoint. I believe some of the issue with the game is there isn't enough representation of the everyday player. Not the youtuber but the player working hard to get to the next level in game. The everyday joe that simply love the game for the game. To that player the definition is not your definition of what class ranks higher then the next class. I feel alot of players of the game has lost there way of what makes the game great
TO PLAY AS YOU WANT
So I ask is there a universal gameplay mechanics that apply defile

Is player hp bar apart of the game. For all player

Is player in charge of hp management. For all player.
THE ANSWER IS YES FOR ALL PLAYERS

Is there at base class gameplay only a select few class that have counter or prevention of healing to hp bar.
YES
Sorry but your veiw point have been proven wrong.

This is the topic and universal issue. Please dont pull a slide of hand to divert attention elsewhere. You guys are better then that.

Excuse me, wtf? Were you there when defile was literally on every third skill in the game? Were you there when defile was freaking spammable (reverb? With 9s defile on it?)? Were you there when people were running around in sloads and durok's, killing people by blocking and bashing? Were you there when incap used to stun and defile you for a fuckton because every decent player and their mother had at least a 39% defile tt?

Veteran player my ass, you are just someone who poured too many hours in a game and didn't play half an hour at an ok (not even good) pvp level.

Thx you for your opinion, I see your point of view. But Unfortunately as far as I can remember 3 or 4 years. NOT EVER CLASS HAD A FORM OF MAJOR DEFILE. so there wasn't a fight fire with fire meta EVER. I believe there should be competitive counter play to all forms of universal defense. As stated before healing is a universal gameplay mechanic no matter the class. I believe gameplay would be faster and more rewarding if defile was in every classes reach. no matter the build or weapon choice.

InvitationNotFound

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, I feel the game and high end players opinion. Is not the only opinion that matters. I have 247 days played on 1 character and basically I played the the game from many different perspectives. Sorry but I can't just sit back and allow a clear view point given on universal gameplay mechanics. Be called anything other the a veteran player viewpoint. I believe some of the issue with the game is there isn't enough representation of the everyday player. Not the youtuber but the player working hard to get to the next level in game. The everyday joe that simply love the game for the game. To that player the definition is not your definition of what class ranks higher then the next class. I feel alot of players of the game has lost there way of what makes the game great
TO PLAY AS YOU WANT
So I ask is there a universal gameplay mechanics that apply defile

Is player hp bar apart of the game. For all player

Is player in charge of hp management. For all player.
THE ANSWER IS YES FOR ALL PLAYERS

Is there at base class gameplay only a select few class that have counter or prevention of healing to hp bar.
YES
Sorry but your veiw point have been proven wrong.

This is the topic and universal issue. Please dont pull a slide of hand to divert attention elsewhere. You guys are better then that.

Missed that one.

You were always able to play as you want. No one prevented you from doing so. Just do not expect to have a viable build.
But that's your choice. It wouldn't make sense to adjust all skills and every aspect of them to be the same. Because that would probably be what you need to have a game where everyone can run around with weird setups and have the same results.

Furthermore, having played eso for a certain amount of days doesn't mean anything. It is like someone says "hey listen to me. I have achieved rank 50 in pvp. I know everything". Or if someone tells you "hey, i work as server admin for 30 years. Trust me!".

The argument should be what matters. I've seen plenty of people in IT who were trying to justify what they do by telling me for how long they were working in IT. Yet, it was simply wrong what they did. So with other words you got someone doing something for a certain time, but you know (based on facts, literature etc.) that he's wrong. So he's actually telling you that he has no clue and did the wrong thing for 30 years. Awesome.

You see, just because you say that you've played a lot and did a few things here and there doesn't mean that you have to know what you're doing. If I would tell that I have played more than that, have a character on every class as magicka and stamina and 1-2 chars on pvp rank 50, would I now win the argument because all of this? No, certainly not. It doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. So please do yourself a favor and try to argue and explain instead of telling everyone how experienced you are (or believe you are). Btw. this doesn't necessarily applies to you only.

(and sorry for the bit of OT, but players justifying things with playtime or AR triggers me sometimes).

And a comment in regards of your everyday gamer:
I agree that everyone should be able to play and enjoy the game. But i don't think that the game should be designed around someone who plays rarely and takes brakes for 1-3 month every few months or so. It is still a MMORPG and meant to keep people busy for a while (and enjoying the game of course). Nerfing it to the ground so that everyone is trash and only number (players) matter, would be bad for the game. And in the end, most nerfs tend to go in this direction.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Healing isn't the issue''

Meanwhile in reality , healing literally got buffed through the roof

Not really. Spring spam was certainly performing better than the current healing (in regards of hots). Further heals have been nerfed as well.

Maybe we should distinguish between group and solo hots as i'm only referring to the group aspect. At least in no-cp (and yes, there might be as well a difference between cp and no-cp) echoing vigor shouldn't be able to out heal a dot (at least from my last calculations, but that's been while...). You'll have to rely on multiple hots and other heals. Other heals didn't really change with the last two updates.

So no, i do not consider this to be the issue here.

And i would be very careful with nerf threads. Most of the time, the way ZOS implements the nerfs, you wish they didn't touch the skill / class.

I'm really not calling for a nerf in my eyes. I know it come off as 1 but I'm not asking for a nerf. I'm asking for all class healing skills to remain the same. And buff healing staff. Healing springs. To spamable maybe 3 max.

Give all classes a form of major defile. In class, this is a buff.
Which will create a balance playing field. To allow player to play as they want.

I would prefer when ZOS wouldn't touch much, at least not at once.

Regarding healing buff. I don't know. I was against the spring nerfs as i saw it as a double edged sword. Some people wanted this change as they believed it would destroy group play (as with rapid nerf and so on). Groups will adapt and that was obvious. It was obvious it would hit less experienced players, groups and pugs. So it did. And now I've already saw players complaining that group heal is out of the roof (yes? maybe because others can't really profit from it and the only other reliable source got nerfed?). With another nerf likely the same would happen. Not sure if buffing would be a good thing. Maybe in a way that random players can compete better. But again, that might be too much for group play or experienced players.

I personally would be happy if their "intelligent targeting" wouldn't be as bad as it currently is. Why does echoing vigor has to hit the same players over and over again while others do not get the hot (mutagen isn't much better in this aspect.)?

Anyway, as already written, giving everyone access to major defile would be a bad idea. Besides that, groups just purge it while pugs / randoms and so on will just suffer.

Imho most of the things could be solved by just forming reasonable groups and playing together.

Iskiab

jcm2606 wrote: »

The problem isn't so much healing in itself, nor dedicated healers. Rather, the problem is cross and off healing, specifically with magicka DPS.

With Scalebreaker, both DoT's and HoT's were buffed, with a few HoT's being reworked to have more obvious group morphs. These buffs balanced each other out, and, in some cases, tipped the scales away from healing, as DoT's could easily overwhelm HoT's.

With Dragonhold, they nerfed DoT's and removed some burst options, while leaving HoT's as they were, which has left healing super strong, in a meta where damage is rather low.

With healing being super strong, and a few HoT's having more obvious group morphs, the game has been pushed into a meta where DPS can just run the group morphs of these HoT's (namely Radiating Regeneration), and not only apply a super strong HoT on themselves, but on nearby allies, too. From a DPS. See the problem, here?

Dedicated healers aren't the problem, because they're not the cause of this. The tools of dedicated healers have been buffed, but these same tools can be used on DPS, with even higher tooltips due to the stronger offensive stats DPS builds tend to offer. Since there's so much more DPS than dedicated healers in a group, dedicated healers really aren't needed, unless nobody runs these HoT's.

The solution to this is to bring the overperforming group HoT morphs back in line, while also making sure the self morphs are actually functional (Rapid Regen applies to the lowest ally, not just to yourself, so by nerfing Radiating Regen, you're removing the only reliable morph magicka DPS have, if they're using this as a self heal).

Take some power out of individual heals, put that power back into using a variety of heals, hence putting power back into dedicated healers, since DPS can't afford to slot every heal. That way, DPS can still heal themselves, without providing a ton of cross and off healing for the group, which brings dedicated healers back into the fold, since they can actually do their jobs instead of being overshadowed by the dozen or so DPS running Radiating Regen on back bar.

There’s one huge flaw in your premise. If healing is so overtuned why don’t all stamina run echoing vigor? The extra healing from resolving vigor should not be required, and echoing vigor would be the no brainer better morph.

jcm2606

Iskiab wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

The problem isn't so much healing in itself, nor dedicated healers. Rather, the problem is cross and off healing, specifically with magicka DPS.

With Scalebreaker, both DoT's and HoT's were buffed, with a few HoT's being reworked to have more obvious group morphs. These buffs balanced each other out, and, in some cases, tipped the scales away from healing, as DoT's could easily overwhelm HoT's.

With Dragonhold, they nerfed DoT's and removed some burst options, while leaving HoT's as they were, which has left healing super strong, in a meta where damage is rather low.

With healing being super strong, and a few HoT's having more obvious group morphs, the game has been pushed into a meta where DPS can just run the group morphs of these HoT's (namely Radiating Regeneration), and not only apply a super strong HoT on themselves, but on nearby allies, too. From a DPS. See the problem, here?

Dedicated healers aren't the problem, because they're not the cause of this. The tools of dedicated healers have been buffed, but these same tools can be used on DPS, with even higher tooltips due to the stronger offensive stats DPS builds tend to offer. Since there's so much more DPS than dedicated healers in a group, dedicated healers really aren't needed, unless nobody runs these HoT's.

The solution to this is to bring the overperforming group HoT morphs back in line, while also making sure the self morphs are actually functional (Rapid Regen applies to the lowest ally, not just to yourself, so by nerfing Radiating Regen, you're removing the only reliable morph magicka DPS have, if they're using this as a self heal).

Take some power out of individual heals, put that power back into using a variety of heals, hence putting power back into dedicated healers, since DPS can't afford to slot every heal. That way, DPS can still heal themselves, without providing a ton of cross and off healing for the group, which brings dedicated healers back into the fold, since they can actually do their jobs instead of being overshadowed by the dozen or so DPS running Radiating Regen on back bar.

There’s one huge flaw in your premise. If healing is so overtuned why don’t all stamina run echoing vigor? The extra healing from resolving vigor should not be required, and echoing vigor would be the no brainer better morph.

"specifically with magicka DPS"

The problem is not nearly as prevalent with stamina DPS, because Echoing isn't nearly as strong as Radiating Regen. Look at the UESP pages for both Echoing Vigor and Radiating Regen. Check the notes section under the little skill stub on the right to see the stats used to get those tooltips, and you can see the stats are both equal.

Radiating Regen has a much higher base tooltip than Echoing Vigor, which allows it to scale much higher, even despite stam being able to stack way more weapon damage. I mean, just look at the base tooltips. Radiating Regen has a base tooltip that is about 60% higher than Echoing's. No amount of weapon damage and max stam stacking can make up that difference.

Now, granted, Radiating Regen does have a much lower target cap (I think Echoing is still limited to 12 or 24 people, though that's way more than 3), so the amount it heals for should be higher since Echoing can heal more targets in a single cast. But that shouldn't result in a 60% difference. That's just insane.

ketsparrowhawk

Enough with your opinions. Please god.

Iskiab

jcm2606 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

The problem isn't so much healing in itself, nor dedicated healers. Rather, the problem is cross and off healing, specifically with magicka DPS.

With Scalebreaker, both DoT's and HoT's were buffed, with a few HoT's being reworked to have more obvious group morphs. These buffs balanced each other out, and, in some cases, tipped the scales away from healing, as DoT's could easily overwhelm HoT's.

With Dragonhold, they nerfed DoT's and removed some burst options, while leaving HoT's as they were, which has left healing super strong, in a meta where damage is rather low.

With healing being super strong, and a few HoT's having more obvious group morphs, the game has been pushed into a meta where DPS can just run the group morphs of these HoT's (namely Radiating Regeneration), and not only apply a super strong HoT on themselves, but on nearby allies, too. From a DPS. See the problem, here?

Dedicated healers aren't the problem, because they're not the cause of this. The tools of dedicated healers have been buffed, but these same tools can be used on DPS, with even higher tooltips due to the stronger offensive stats DPS builds tend to offer. Since there's so much more DPS than dedicated healers in a group, dedicated healers really aren't needed, unless nobody runs these HoT's.

The solution to this is to bring the overperforming group HoT morphs back in line, while also making sure the self morphs are actually functional (Rapid Regen applies to the lowest ally, not just to yourself, so by nerfing Radiating Regen, you're removing the only reliable morph magicka DPS have, if they're using this as a self heal).

Take some power out of individual heals, put that power back into using a variety of heals, hence putting power back into dedicated healers, since DPS can't afford to slot every heal. That way, DPS can still heal themselves, without providing a ton of cross and off healing for the group, which brings dedicated healers back into the fold, since they can actually do their jobs instead of being overshadowed by the dozen or so DPS running Radiating Regen on back bar.

There’s one huge flaw in your premise. If healing is so overtuned why don’t all stamina run echoing vigor? The extra healing from resolving vigor should not be required, and echoing vigor would be the no brainer better morph.

"specifically with magicka DPS"

The problem is not nearly as prevalent with stamina DPS, because Echoing isn't nearly as strong as Radiating Regen. Look at the UESP pages for both Echoing Vigor and Radiating Regen. Check the notes section under the little skill stub on the right to see the stats used to get those tooltips, and you can see the stats are both equal.

Radiating Regen has a much higher base tooltip than Echoing Vigor, which allows it to scale much higher, even despite stam being able to stack way more weapon damage. I mean, just look at the base tooltips. Radiating Regen has a base tooltip that is about 60% higher than Echoing's. No amount of weapon damage and max stam stacking can make up that difference.

Now, granted, Radiating Regen does have a much lower target cap (I think Echoing is still limited to 12 or 24 people, though that's way more than 3), so the amount it heals for should be higher since Echoing can heal more targets in a single cast. But that shouldn't result in a 60% difference. That's just insane.

Echoing is capped at 6 and radiating regen is capped at 3. The base healing is different yes, but with high weapon damage amounts stam have the tooltip comes out to about the same in pvp builds.

Echoing vigor is basicly regen but better. The only limitation is the range.

kalunte

i can only agree with @jcm2606 here. for almost everything.

cross healings are the issue. not healing itself. and radiating regen is way more efficient than echoing vigor.

technohic

I actually agree with the OP in that we need more access to the counterplay in defile, and the befoul tree could be directly applied rather than a boost as an option.

I am not sure the specifics as being set in stone; but I am all for adding/improving counter play rather than nerfs to pretty much everything. It would seem a better way than hitting fun aspects of having powerful abilities, and would be less impactful to PvE as well.

kojou

So when you get healing nerfed, players will stack mitigation, and when you get mitigation nerfed, then you will complain that players do too much damage... And on it goes.

phoenixkungfu

kojou wrote: »

So when you get healing nerfed, players will stack mitigation, and when you get mitigation nerfed, then you will complain that players do too much damage... And on it goes.

I have to speak out about this misconception. Optimization vs capacity. Players in my opinion that have the highest healing capability is NOT THE HEALING CLASS set up. It the, High weapon or spell damage/ critical dps. on all most all classes higher dps equal higher healing. And that's ok all classes need to manage there hp bar. Healing builds over all are sacrificing healing power for group utility. Therefore optimizing healing. There is a major difference. "DPS ARE NOT STACKING HEALING" it is my belief that the overall over stacking of any other defense mechanic. Like resistance or damage migration comes at a sacrifice. This sacrifice is balance. However what's not balance is the universal role healing plays in the game vs the universal counter to healing and accessibility. All classes should have a form of major defile just like all classes should have a heal to manage their hp bar.

Alienoutlaw

so if i have read this right (forgive me if i get it wrong) this is just a fancy NERF TEMPLAR/WARDEN thread? there is always a way to counter another player, if you cant beat them because they are healing faster than you damage than i suggest either looking at YOUR damage output maybe think of slotting a cc or a stun (negate is awesome for stopping a healer) if your damage is lacking then play smarter keep up the pressure force them to use their resources then close for the kill, failing all that run away, most heals have a cool down and burst heals are expensive to use, knowing how to use that is an advantage, DK's that leap are open for attack for 0.5s for after they land if you stun or snare they usually go down easy.

every death is a lesson read the re-cap see what killed you and figure out why then mitigate against it for next time. being "good" at PvP does not happen over night, it has nothing to do with your sets or skills or level for that matter, every fight is different and it takes time to build knowledge, there are no mechanics to learn players dont stand still or follow the same route or combat script like add's in PvE.

most of us that manage to stay alive just that bit longer in a fight have died 1000's of times and have 100's of hrs invested into PvP even then we still get caught of guard.

so with all respect i wont say this is nothing more than a L2P issue but simply a play more and learn more about PvP before you make a thread asking for changes that simply are not needed.

PvP suffers enough already with in-experienced players calling for nerfs and buffs because they think doing 50k on a PvE dummy means they will never be killed or should be killing everyone, as i said PvP is a very seperate part of the game and needs to be learnt.

oXI_Viper_IXo

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

so if i have read this right (forgive me if i get it wrong) this is just a fancy NERF TEMPLAR/WARDEN thread?

This, like all of OP's recent threads, is a nerf everything (especially DK) but MagSorc post. His bias is completely obvious and there is pretty much no point in indulging him with any form of rational conversation at this point.

Alienoutlaw

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

so if i have read this right (forgive me if i get it wrong) this is just a fancy NERF TEMPLAR/WARDEN thread?

This, like all of OP's recent threads, is a nerf everything (especially DK) but MagSorc post. His bias is completely obvious and there is pretty much no point in indulging him with any form of rational conversation at this point.

i ply a magsorc myself, i dont run impen i dont stack crit resistance in fact i run nothing more than a single target PvE build in Cyrodill yet i manage perfectly fine to stay alive and kill players spec'd for PvP sure i may go down easier but thats not because something is OP or "broke" just my choice of play style. if i can survive im sure others can also

MrGhosty

I've found the easiest answer to the cheesey "unkillable" builds is to just not give them oxygen. That team of templars won't leave that one shiny flag in the middle, begging people to waste their time on it? just go where they're not. I'm def. not a great pvper (middling at best on a good day) but that is way more consistent a means of countering such play, for me at least. It also has the lovely side effect of not getting a bunch of other innocent builds nerfed into the ground or removing fun skills from players.

Also, the HP bar is a universal mechanic (to use your words) and the way to counter it is to deprive the player of one or both of their other universal mechanics (stam and magicka) if they can't cast a skill, then you've solved the problem and again not introduced an unintended pain point for many others.

Just my two cents tho..

akdave0

don't make cases for nerfs, just stop. The entire PVP community needs to start lobbying their own game. Problem solved, because what maybe 3 million players across all platforms ask for, affects the other 10,000,000 pve players. YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED! just the loudest, a vocal minority. So, you now have the soapbox to stand on, yell for your own expansion that removes PVP and all aspects from ESO Tamriel One. Get to work!!

Lokey0024

Eso PvP has this wonderful mechanic called battle spirit. By messing with %damage,%healing, and max health they could test on the PTS. Before you grab the pitchforks and start ReeEeEeeE-ing, it's called test.

As is, imo, what you are limited to is build glass cannon and roll dice to the lag god that your 3 hit combo goes off (first gamble) and 2 or 3 crit (second gamble) after literally dodgeroll>vigor>Rally>snareclear>dodgeroll>vigor>Rally.....around a tree until you can 3 pce, or build tanky AF and roll with a group.

I think the plate is kinda full with trying to fix actual game performance.

tplink3r1

Seriously, do you think you have such a kind of deep understanding of how this game works and should work that you have to go around every single day telling everyone what should be changed? Every single day you create a thread like this.