If you pay attention, you will notice that most of these topics asking for nerfs were created by this same guy. He is on some kind of crusade here for the last couple of days.InvitationNotFound wrote: »great, another nerf thread.
nerf this, nerf that, reduce the targets. and so on. I have some news for you. Healing already got nerfed (e.g. springs). Hots do not hit everyone (e.g. echoing vigor hits 6 people, always the same if they don't take damage - mutagen (not sure if the right morph) only hits 3 players).
Healing in its current state isn't the issue.
Not really. Echoing vigor is hot garbage for anything other than group play where heals are stacked on top of each other. Radiating regen is actually viable solo as well, since you can get up to 3k ticks from it (no CP) in an average build, meaning you don't have to respec every time you are not in a group. GL getting anything close to that healing on echoing without running some meme max weap dmg build that either cannot be sustained or is too squishy. You won't. Target cap is really irrelevant in a discussion about healing power. RR can also be easily tapped twice.The problem isn't so much healing in itself, nor dedicated healers. Rather, the problem is cross and off healing, specifically with magicka DPS.
With Scalebreaker, both DoT's and HoT's were buffed, with a few HoT's being reworked to have more obvious group morphs. These buffs balanced each other out, and, in some cases, tipped the scales away from healing, as DoT's could easily overwhelm HoT's.
With Dragonhold, they nerfed DoT's and removed some burst options, while leaving HoT's as they were, which has left healing super strong, in a meta where damage is rather low.
With healing being super strong, and a few HoT's having more obvious group morphs, the game has been pushed into a meta where DPS can just run the group morphs of these HoT's (namely Radiating Regeneration), and not only apply a super strong HoT on themselves, but on nearby allies, too. From a DPS. See the problem, here?
Dedicated healers aren't the problem, because they're not the cause of this. The tools of dedicated healers have been buffed, but these same tools can be used on DPS, with even higher tooltips due to the stronger offensive stats DPS builds tend to offer. Since there's so much more DPS than dedicated healers in a group, dedicated healers really aren't needed, unless nobody runs these HoT's.
The solution to this is to bring the overperforming group HoT morphs back in line, while also making sure the self morphs are actually functional (Rapid Regen applies to the lowest ally, not just to yourself, so by nerfing Radiating Regen, you're removing the only reliable morph magicka DPS have, if they're using this as a self heal).
Take some power out of individual heals, put that power back into using a variety of heals, hence putting power back into dedicated healers, since DPS can't afford to slot every heal. That way, DPS can still heal themselves, without providing a ton of cross and off healing for the group, which brings dedicated healers back into the fold, since they can actually do their jobs instead of being overshadowed by the dozen or so DPS running Radiating Regen on back bar.
There’s one huge flaw in your premise. If healing is so overtuned why don’t all stamina run echoing vigor? The extra healing from resolving vigor should not be required, and echoing vigor would be the no brainer better morph.
"specifically with magicka DPS"
The problem is not nearly as prevalent with stamina DPS, because Echoing isn't nearly as strong as Radiating Regen. Look at the UESP pages for both Echoing Vigor and Radiating Regen. Check the notes section under the little skill stub on the right to see the stats used to get those tooltips, and you can see the stats are both equal.
Radiating Regen has a much higher base tooltip than Echoing Vigor, which allows it to scale much higher, even despite stam being able to stack way more weapon damage. I mean, just look at the base tooltips. Radiating Regen has a base tooltip that is about 60% higher than Echoing's. No amount of weapon damage and max stam stacking can make up that difference.
Now, granted, Radiating Regen does have a much lower target cap (I think Echoing is still limited to 12 or 24 people, though that's way more than 3), so the amount it heals for should be higher since Echoing can heal more targets in a single cast. But that shouldn't result in a 60% difference. That's just insane.
Echoing is capped at 6 and radiating regen is capped at 3. The base healing is different yes, but with high weapon damage amounts stam have the tooltip comes out to about the same in pvp builds.
Echoing vigor is basicly regen but better. The only limitation is the range.
If you pay attention, you will notice that most of these topics asking for nerfs were created by this same guy. He is on some kind of crusade here for the last couple of days.InvitationNotFound wrote: »great, another nerf thread.
nerf this, nerf that, reduce the targets. and so on. I have some news for you. Healing already got nerfed (e.g. springs). Hots do not hit everyone (e.g. echoing vigor hits 6 people, always the same if they don't take damage - mutagen (not sure if the right morph) only hits 3 players).
Healing in its current state isn't the issue.
phoenixkungfu wrote: »Hi everyone, it is my belief that healing in game is pretty high. So much so that some classes are hard to kill. But is the issue high heal or counter play. I believe its counter play and lack of access to it. I believe healing focus build should
have better counter gameplay. THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL OPTION TO COUNTER HEALING THAT IS VIABLE. You are at a disadvantage against a class that has class major defile in its tool kit. Major defile is not universal. It is also my belief as a fact that no matter the class. A universal mechanic is the ability to manage a hp bar. Therefore ALL CLASS USE HEALING. Furthermore it is my belief that the cp system should apply a way to apply the cp skill befoul universally. I also believe befoul in the cp tree should be applied as a action in the cp tree's. And example would be to replace siphoned with defile. As stated before I believe all classes should have access to major defile. I also wouldn't mind seeing major defile increase to 35% or a higher number after testing have been done.
Joy_Division wrote: »phoenixkungfu wrote: »Hi everyone, it is my belief that healing in game is pretty high. So much so that some classes are hard to kill. But is the issue high heal or counter play. I believe its counter play and lack of access to it. I believe healing focus build should
have better counter gameplay. THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL OPTION TO COUNTER HEALING THAT IS VIABLE. You are at a disadvantage against a class that has class major defile in its tool kit. Major defile is not universal. It is also my belief as a fact that no matter the class. A universal mechanic is the ability to manage a hp bar. Therefore ALL CLASS USE HEALING. Furthermore it is my belief that the cp system should apply a way to apply the cp skill befoul universally. I also believe befoul in the cp tree should be applied as a action in the cp tree's. And example would be to replace siphoned with defile. As stated before I believe all classes should have access to major defile. I also wouldn't mind seeing major defile increase to 35% or a higher number after testing have been done.
Have you ever considered the possibility it is because of the so many complaints about "over-performing" skills that do damage and CC, of which you have authored many recently, that it is so easy for average players to be carried by high health/healing builds?
Agree and as stated before defile should be universal for all classes. Just like hp management(or healing) is universal for all classes.Infectious1X wrote: »Cross healing is the issue? Seriously? ROFL! Yeah, I guess that’s why 1v1s always end in stalemates right? “But PvP isn’t balanced around 1v1s.” Correct, but the issue only gets worse in group fights.
Cross healing isn’t the issue. It’s combined with the fact that healing in general is absurdly powerful currently. Even in the dot meta people still didn’t die if they were competent.
The two main issues is that healing scales with dps, meaning everyone has access to powerful heals, which only gets worse when you add dedicated healers into the mix and the fact that counterplay (defile) was essentially removed entirely from the game.
Yeah, maybe the “defile” meta wasn't too much fun, but at least pvp wasn’t full of 30 min fights with no one dying until someone gave up out of boredom. Bring defile back and tweak the game around that. Defile also has the benefit of having zero impact on PvErs, so they’d have no reason to complain about changes being made for pvpers.
Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
Battle spirit - Decrease healing value by "X".
That simple really. No need to vastly change 10 skills when you can edit one. Eazy Peazy.
Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
Aah I knew this response was coming. You look at it way too black and white. Just because I don't agree with the offered suggestion doesn't mean I disagree healing is too strong. It is too strong. So just adjust that then. Adding a seperate healing stat is only going to hurt self sustainability and means normal builds will have to sacrifice a lot in order to heal themself, because the game will have too many stats and elements to invest in. You can say what you want, but solo play is a playstyle. And it has effect as well in smallscale combat (4 man), which is what I usually prefer to play. Because in small scale you have to also be self sustainable. Running with a full healer is just so much more boring.Infectious1X wrote: »Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
First off, it’s an mmo, not a single player game. Second, the game is ridiculously, mind numbingly simple and easy, at least for PvE. Healers are nearly non existent for nearly all group content because players like you want strong healing and dps for “SoLo pLaY.”
In PvP, everyone is on equal terms since everyone would be forced to either choose dps or healing, or a weaker combination of both. Going solo also isn’t meant to be easy against groups for obvious reasons, but for some awful reason, this is the only mmo where “PvPers” want consistent* 1vX content. Why should a single player be able to survive for minutes at a time against multiple people? Why do you think 1v1s ALWAYS end in stalemates?
*As in always viable. 1vXs are possible in other mmos against undergeared or less skilled players, but those players aren’t attempting to ruin balance for being outnumbered.
Infectious1X wrote: »Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
First off, it’s an mmo, not a single player game. Second, the game is ridiculously, mind numbingly simple and easy, at least for PvE. Healers are nearly non existent for nearly all group content because players like you want strong healing and dps for “SoLo pLaY.”
In PvP, everyone is on equal terms since everyone would be forced to either choose dps or healing, or a weaker combination of both. Going solo also isn’t meant to be easy against groups for obvious reasons, but for some awful reason, this is the only mmo where “PvPers” want consistent* 1vX content. Why should a single player be able to survive for minutes at a time against multiple people? Why do you think 1v1s ALWAYS end in stalemates?
*As in always viable. 1vXs are possible in other mmos against undergeared or less skilled players, but those players aren’t attempting to ruin balance for being outnumbered.
phoenixkungfu wrote: »Hi everyone, it is my belief that healing in game is pretty high. So much so that some classes are hard to kill. But is the issue high heal or counter play. I believe its counter play and lack of access to it. I believe healing focus build should
have better counter gameplay. THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL OPTION TO COUNTER HEALING THAT IS VIABLE. You are at a disadvantage against a class that has class major defile in its tool kit. Major defile is not universal. It is also my belief as a fact that no matter the class. A universal mechanic is the ability to manage a hp bar. Therefore ALL CLASS USE HEALING. Furthermore it is my belief that the cp system should apply a way to apply the cp skill befoul universally. I also believe befoul in the cp tree should be applied as a action in the cp tree's. And example would be to replace siphoned with defile. As stated before I believe all classes should have access to major defile. I also wouldn't mind seeing major defile increase to 35% or a higher number after testing have been done.
Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
Read my previous comment before posting comments that I already adressed. I want all playstyles to be viable, unlike some zergbads that will do anything to stop others from outplaying them.Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
Fun fact mmorpg are not solo game.
Read my previous comment before posting comments that I already adressed. I want all playstyles to be viable, unlike some zergbads that will do anything to stop others from outplaying them.Yea lets make any form of solo play impossible. Great idea. Next thing the only playstyle left is zerging and all will be good.RavenSworn wrote: »Actually all they need to do is to separate spell power with healing power. They already made Armor to be both spell and physical resistance, why not separate these two then so as not to make dps char great healers as well and full healers to be relevant again in all content.
That's all they need to do really.
Fun fact mmorpg are not solo game.