Ritual of Retribution is doing as much damage as Elemental Blockade and also healing? huh?

Massacre_Wurm

humpalicous wrote: »

Legit.
Matriarch is op. It heals 2 targets akin to BoL, takes up two bar slots, has no aoe damage/heal component, and doesn't purge. And it can die.

...Wait, that's nothing like retribution...
Provides neither the utility or AoE component on heals or damage.
Huh.

Sure, and templar aslo have OP shields , streak , best execute in the game , etc ?
JUST STOP COMPARING SKILL BY SKILL

Vapirko

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

Minno

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

Vortigaunt

So they nerf refreshing path, which was doing AWFUL damage mind you and was mostly used for the heal and a way to proc damage done set bonuses like skoria, but then they add THIS in which does more damage than twisting path and more healing than old refreshing? Hello? Consistency?

susmitds wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam Can we revert the nerf to Refreshing Path now?

^ this just for the extra tag lol

danno8

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

The last time you posted on Templars it was about claiming how strong Dark Flare was with the major defile. You strongly supported the nerf to its damage because of the defile. However, players who play Templars every day spoke up about how the initial cast time was too long and it would never get used. You didn't listen. Guess what? I have yet to see Dark Flare being used since that patch went live. It's like a rare sight that your jaw drops when it happens. So I'm not sure how much players should pay attention to this thread.

That's because Templars are rarely seen outside of healing zerging because there mechanics they have on live don't support decent defense to justify the largely sustained pressure offense. Now with extra healing on extended ritual and living dark being proactive defense, Templar has been brought up to speed with other classes.

People like OP want to keep some classes down despite their intent on buffing underused classes/skills instead of huge nerfs (which is exactly this patch in a nutshell).

He's also a toolyip warrior, tried to prove that a litany of Templar abilities were overperforming even though they were balanced when looking at the full picture of basic combat situations.

#EndNoiseThreads2019

I see templars all the time in high mmr BGs, they are by far the most useful class to any team, magplars in particular, because (healing aside) of the utility they provide. I would rather have a magplar on my team than anything else and when I duo queue with one we usually win almost all of our BGs, and that will be even more true if this change to ritual goes through. In fact, I probably won't queue without that magplar because the only counter to the near permanent healing output and utility of a gigantic ritual will be, you guessed it, another ritual. It isn't fun playing against any team with such a huge advantage and because the ability is just so powerful/overloaded, the only real counter to it will be the same ability, balancing things out.

It's pretty clear you haven't experienced putting four dots onto a target and watched them be purged off when your target uses a synergy repeatedly, on multiple different targets because a templar put down a 24 second long ritual 16 seconds ago. For the cost of one ability, multiple people have up to six dots from myself and multiple debuffs (possibly including major defile and minor vuln from me) completely removed, and are also healed, and also receive resources back. The opportunity cost of the ability as it is on live is already completely out of line with basically anything else in the game if we compare it only to the cost of casting purge/efficient purge. How much damage can be mitigated by both the heal from the synergy and removing multiple dots and debuffs on multiple people? A lot. Already more than any other ability in the entire game, likely including ults. But we're also giving resources back because that's what every synergy does, giving value to any synergy regardless of what it is.

Once we include the healing over time, the possible damage, the minor mending, and the permanent snare, it starts to look really really stupid. Then we double the healing, or double the healing and the damage of the 12 second morph to be equal to current ground aoes that only do damage or only heal, and what do we get? Probably the most overloaded ability in the entire game, and here you are defending it.

Tooltips tell us what abilities have the potential to do, which is more useful than whatever it is you think you're contributing. Looking at a tooltip and learning that a ground aoe five times the size of blockade has the potential to do the same damage, and also learning that a ground aoe five times the size of healing springs has the potential to do the same amount of healing, makes it already seem a little suspect. Refreshing Path was nerfed for doing only these two things. Ritual of Retribution goes on to give minor mending, remove two debuffs, snare everyone in the largest ground aoe in the game, and provides your group with the best synergy in the game.

You haven't even come close to presenting a convincing argument as to why this an ability this overloaded should make it to the live servers besides "templars are bad cuz reasons" (they aren't), and haven't shown there to be any abilities even close to comparable in damage, healing, and utility in the entire game.

this isn't a good look, give it a rest

you write alot of fluff to say templars in high MMR bgs are basically healbots lol.

You also didnt show me any videos showing RoR overperforming, in a basic combat scenario. And If RoR is truely OP (TLDR; its not if you idiots stop standing in it lol), then it must be on par with matriach and thus templar buffed to compete with sorc.

But guess what, only an idiot runs RoR or is a pve templar, because they give up 5 debuff purge. If you like running against defiles, go ahead and run RoR. But those templars in that BG arent in a high MMR running a dmg templar and certainly aren't running much dmg to begin with lol. And the templars that do deal dmg, are likely the stamplar which DEFINITELY isnt running RoR.

Show me a vid, and I will shut up. Till then, stop only looking at the tooltips while creating these types of threads.

This post is about pvp and pve, not just pvp. Templars will likely be using ritual of retribution in pve, where it's still clearly doing more things at once than any ground aoe, while covering a much larger area. The heal was still doubled, and still lasts 18 seconds with the healing morph, and the snare/synergy/minor mending lasts 24 seconds. Both morphs of the ability are clearly overtuned/do too much at once.

We don't need videos to show that an ability like ritual is good. We already know it's good because we play the game (some of us, at least). We now know that it will be much, much better after the patch because the damage and healing was doubled. Even moreso because some of the best aoe heals and ground aoe damaging abilities were also nerfed. If your argument is somehow that ritual is not good in it's current iteration on the live servers, then you're going to have to provide a reason as to why I've never ran into a templar without it on their bar.

It's easy to imagine a hypothetical scenario where one ritual mitigates a metric *** ton of damage, but this isn't really hypothetical because it happens all the time in BGs. A Templar casts a ritual, and removes a large portion (or all) of the debuffs off of himself. He then gives himself minor mending. He then snares every single enemy in the area for 24 seconds. The circle continuously heals everyone inside of the gigantic area for the same as healing springs, only for 18 seconds after it's casted. On top of that, the other three teammates in his group are provided with a synergy that removes all debuffs off of them, heals them, and gives them back resources.

You're doing all of that for 4k magicka. Healing everyone for 18 seconds for the same as grand healing, getting minor mending, removing debuffs from yourself (potentially mitigating more than any heal would), snaring everyone else for 24 seconds, healing your teammates who use the synergy, removing all debuffs from your teammates who use the synergy, and giving resources back to your teammates who use the synergy.

Which ability does even close to all of that? If you put down refreshing path, it heals for about the same amount, covers a very tiny area in comparison, and gives people major expedition, and even then only for 12 seconds. If you put down twisting path, it just does damage instead. If you put down ritual of retribution, well, see above.

tbh it's hard to take anyone seriously who can't immediately see the problem here. are you just trolling now or what?

RoR is 12 seconds, Extended is 24. Not sure where the 18 second figure is coming from for any of this.

Yes the healing is about the same as Healing Springs now, but the cost is roughly double and potentially even more depending on how many people are in your Springs for the pulsing magicka return.

So the question is, for roughly double or more than double the cost what do you think the skill should do? Just the damage portion and synergy? Drop the passive that gives the Snare and minor Mending? No cleanse on RoR at all?

danno8

danno8 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

The last time you posted on Templars it was about claiming how strong Dark Flare was with the major defile. You strongly supported the nerf to its damage because of the defile. However, players who play Templars every day spoke up about how the initial cast time was too long and it would never get used. You didn't listen. Guess what? I have yet to see Dark Flare being used since that patch went live. It's like a rare sight that your jaw drops when it happens. So I'm not sure how much players should pay attention to this thread.

That's because Templars are rarely seen outside of healing zerging because there mechanics they have on live don't support decent defense to justify the largely sustained pressure offense. Now with extra healing on extended ritual and living dark being proactive defense, Templar has been brought up to speed with other classes.

People like OP want to keep some classes down despite their intent on buffing underused classes/skills instead of huge nerfs (which is exactly this patch in a nutshell).

He's also a toolyip warrior, tried to prove that a litany of Templar abilities were overperforming even though they were balanced when looking at the full picture of basic combat situations.

#EndNoiseThreads2019

I see templars all the time in high mmr BGs, they are by far the most useful class to any team, magplars in particular, because (healing aside) of the utility they provide. I would rather have a magplar on my team than anything else and when I duo queue with one we usually win almost all of our BGs, and that will be even more true if this change to ritual goes through. In fact, I probably won't queue without that magplar because the only counter to the near permanent healing output and utility of a gigantic ritual will be, you guessed it, another ritual. It isn't fun playing against any team with such a huge advantage and because the ability is just so powerful/overloaded, the only real counter to it will be the same ability, balancing things out.

It's pretty clear you haven't experienced putting four dots onto a target and watched them be purged off when your target uses a synergy repeatedly, on multiple different targets because a templar put down a 24 second long ritual 16 seconds ago. For the cost of one ability, multiple people have up to six dots from myself and multiple debuffs (possibly including major defile and minor vuln from me) completely removed, and are also healed, and also receive resources back. The opportunity cost of the ability as it is on live is already completely out of line with basically anything else in the game if we compare it only to the cost of casting purge/efficient purge. How much damage can be mitigated by both the heal from the synergy and removing multiple dots and debuffs on multiple people? A lot. Already more than any other ability in the entire game, likely including ults. But we're also giving resources back because that's what every synergy does, giving value to any synergy regardless of what it is.

Once we include the healing over time, the possible damage, the minor mending, and the permanent snare, it starts to look really really stupid. Then we double the healing, or double the healing and the damage of the 12 second morph to be equal to current ground aoes that only do damage or only heal, and what do we get? Probably the most overloaded ability in the entire game, and here you are defending it.

Tooltips tell us what abilities have the potential to do, which is more useful than whatever it is you think you're contributing. Looking at a tooltip and learning that a ground aoe five times the size of blockade has the potential to do the same damage, and also learning that a ground aoe five times the size of healing springs has the potential to do the same amount of healing, makes it already seem a little suspect. Refreshing Path was nerfed for doing only these two things. Ritual of Retribution goes on to give minor mending, remove two debuffs, snare everyone in the largest ground aoe in the game, and provides your group with the best synergy in the game.

You haven't even come close to presenting a convincing argument as to why this an ability this overloaded should make it to the live servers besides "templars are bad cuz reasons" (they aren't), and haven't shown there to be any abilities even close to comparable in damage, healing, and utility in the entire game.

this isn't a good look, give it a rest

you write alot of fluff to say templars in high MMR bgs are basically healbots lol.

You also didnt show me any videos showing RoR overperforming, in a basic combat scenario. And If RoR is truely OP (TLDR; its not if you idiots stop standing in it lol), then it must be on par with matriach and thus templar buffed to compete with sorc.

But guess what, only an idiot runs RoR or is a pve templar, because they give up 5 debuff purge. If you like running against defiles, go ahead and run RoR. But those templars in that BG arent in a high MMR running a dmg templar and certainly aren't running much dmg to begin with lol. And the templars that do deal dmg, are likely the stamplar which DEFINITELY isnt running RoR.

Show me a vid, and I will shut up. Till then, stop only looking at the tooltips while creating these types of threads.

This post is about pvp and pve, not just pvp. Templars will likely be using ritual of retribution in pve, where it's still clearly doing more things at once than any ground aoe, while covering a much larger area. The heal was still doubled, and still lasts 18 seconds with the healing morph, and the snare/synergy/minor mending lasts 24 seconds. Both morphs of the ability are clearly overtuned/do too much at once.

We don't need videos to show that an ability like ritual is good. We already know it's good because we play the game (some of us, at least). We now know that it will be much, much better after the patch because the damage and healing was doubled. Even moreso because some of the best aoe heals and ground aoe damaging abilities were also nerfed. If your argument is somehow that ritual is not good in it's current iteration on the live servers, then you're going to have to provide a reason as to why I've never ran into a templar without it on their bar.

It's easy to imagine a hypothetical scenario where one ritual mitigates a metric *** ton of damage, but this isn't really hypothetical because it happens all the time in BGs. A Templar casts a ritual, and removes a large portion (or all) of the debuffs off of himself. He then gives himself minor mending. He then snares every single enemy in the area for 24 seconds. The circle continuously heals everyone inside of the gigantic area for the same as healing springs, only for 18 seconds after it's casted. On top of that, the other three teammates in his group are provided with a synergy that removes all debuffs off of them, heals them, and gives them back resources.

You're doing all of that for 4k magicka. Healing everyone for 18 seconds for the same as grand healing, getting minor mending, removing debuffs from yourself (potentially mitigating more than any heal would), snaring everyone else for 24 seconds, healing your teammates who use the synergy, removing all debuffs from your teammates who use the synergy, and giving resources back to your teammates who use the synergy.

Which ability does even close to all of that? If you put down refreshing path, it heals for about the same amount, covers a very tiny area in comparison, and gives people major expedition, and even then only for 12 seconds. If you put down twisting path, it just does damage instead. If you put down ritual of retribution, well, see above.

tbh it's hard to take anyone seriously who can't immediately see the problem here. are you just trolling now or what?

RoR is 12 seconds, Extended is 24. Not sure where the 18 second figure is coming from for any of this.

Yes the healing is about the same as Healing Springs now, but the cost is roughly double and potentially even more depending on how many people are in your Springs for the pulsing magicka return.

So the question is, for roughly double or more than double the cost what do you think the skill should do? Just the damage portion and synergy? Drop the passive that gives the Snare and minor Mending? No cleanse on RoR at all?

To answer my own question, with the given cost, and the fact that this is a class skill (which should imo be better than the weapon line alternatives), I think the skill should keep the damage and heal as PTS currently, keep the synergy and personal cleanse but the Sacred ground passive should lose the snare which I have never been a fan of and should change to "gaining minor Mending for 2/4 seconds whenever you cast a Restoring Light spell". This makes the Minor Mending less "free".

I guess part of this comes down to whether you think Templar healing skills should be above par than other alternatives or whether you believe that every class should be able to have equal potency in healing abilities. Of course if you think that Refreshing Path (your example) should be basically equal to ER or RoR, then most Templars might ask why they don't have the same speed or burst as NB.

kalunte

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Massacre_Wurm

kalunte wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Sure , let's look on this "1skill = 1 effect" rule.

Reapers mark :
1/debuff
2/heal
3/buff
4/crit damage
5/weapon crit
6/restoring resources.

looks like ONE EFFECT TO ME

maxjapank

So dumb. Another skill that no one has complained about. It gets a little more dmg and a little more heals, but the cost is increased to make up for that, and suddenly the world is coming to an end. All because one player has a grudge and evidently a hard time fighting against Templars. Hey, everyone. This isn’t his first nerf Templar thread.

kalunte

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Sure , let's look on this "1skill = 1 effect" rule.

Reapers mark :
1/debuff
2/heal
3/buff
4/crit damage
5/weapon crit
6/restoring resources.

looks like ONE EFFECT TO ME

hum, reaper's mark only debuffs your target, other effects comes when the said target dies, last effect you are talking about are passives that all other skills does. it does no dmg tho so it does not restore ressources back. only health, and once again, if your target dies which makes it situational, not everlasting.

to be fair if i remove passives, one skill has 4 direct effects ,(let's say 3 if you also remove the synergy) and the other has only one which is major breach/fracture. you should choose another skill to compare it with ritual

Sandman929

I think they've done enough to AoE healing already, so I hope they leave this for now. If they buff something else to help other classes, even better

Massacre_Wurm

kalunte wrote: »

you should choose another skill to compare it with ritual

Sure , why not.

Ambush :
1. Teleport
2. Damage
3. Debuff
4. Buff

Lotus fan :
1.Teleport
2. Damage
3. Debuff
4. AOE DOT

brandonv516

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Sure , let's look on this "1skill = 1 effect" rule.

Reapers mark :
1/debuff
2/heal
3/buff
4/crit damage
5/weapon crit
6/restoring resources.

looks like ONE EFFECT TO ME

#2, #3 are conditional
#5 only beneficial to stamina players
#6 isn't a thing - doesn't do damage so doesn't return stamina or magicka (if you are referring to returning health then refer to #2)

Bad example. Nice try.

Massacre_Wurm

brandonv516 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Sure , let's look on this "1skill = 1 effect" rule.

Reapers mark :
1/debuff
2/heal
3/buff
4/crit damage
5/weapon crit
6/restoring resources.

looks like ONE EFFECT TO ME

#2, #3 are conditional
#5 only beneficial to stamina players
#6 isn't a thing - doesn't do damage so doesn't return stamina or magicka (if you are referring to returning health then refer to #2)

Bad example. Nice try.

So conditional effect is not an effect ? How convenient.
Only stamina players ? Who cares ? Its still an effect of the skill.
6# Is a thing. Because its a debuff for Incapacitating Strike.

Using the same logic i can say that damage effect is conditional if noone is around or inside the area. Healing also if you leave the area.

Bad logic. Nice try.

brandonv516

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Sure , let's look on this "1skill = 1 effect" rule.

Reapers mark :
1/debuff
2/heal
3/buff
4/crit damage
5/weapon crit
6/restoring resources.

looks like ONE EFFECT TO ME

#2, #3 are conditional
#5 only beneficial to stamina players
#6 isn't a thing - doesn't do damage so doesn't return stamina or magicka (if you are referring to returning health then refer to #2)

Bad example. Nice try.

So conditional effect is not an effect ? How convenient.
Only stamina players ? Who cares ? Its still an effect of the skill.
6# Is a thing. Because its a debuff for Incapacitating Strike.

Using the same logic i can say that damage effect is conditional if noone is around or inside the area. Healing also if you leave the area.

Bad logic. Nice try.

:Sigh:

#6 is not a thing

When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damage by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher.

Mark does nothing to contribute to returning resources with the exception of health which is the same bullet point as #2

You're an idiot. Please come back when you decide not to be one.

Iskiab

Minno wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OOJIMMY wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think some people aren’t smart enough to figure out how these things will play out.

7k HPS in a trial from one button press on a dps every 12 seconds means having 4-5 Templars can replace a healer. 4 Templars means 28k HPS total, 5 Templars means 35k HPS and is more then enough to replace a full time healer.

Then why wasnt it ever used b4?

It was, in pve trial healers use it.

The healing value has gone up considerably.

I think the main issue I’m seeing is some people are looking at the ability from their small group or solo pvp perspective and ignoring the large group/trial perspective. My god you could even have templar zergs.

Best change I can think of to accommodate both groups: keep the damage as is, limit ritual of retribution to healing 1 person in the area. That will make small/solo pvp Templars happy and not break the game

I main a stamplar and actually switched to ror over caltrops for pve. I lost a little dps but that healing brought a bit of utility.

Stibbons wrote: »

Templars needed buff after years.

Yea, I have no issue with Templars getting a buff, just not something that will break the game.

Maybe RoR keep the damage and heals 1-3 targets instead of 6. That would be powerful but not game breaking.

I agree on the stacking of heals. I consider that a bug and should be fixed.

Think so? I think stacking effects make more sense for organized large group pvp. Otherwise you’ll see complaints of ‘Only ever one Templar per raid’, like if healing springs didn’t stack you’ll only see one healer per raid.

I think one of three things:
- Let it heal six and stack but reduce the healing value on retribution
- Reduce targets to 1-3 and keep the value to help solo and small scale players
- Keep the full value and 6 players but make the effects not stack

A number person would have to figure out which is best. I’d think the answer would depend on where Templars need the most help: small or large scale, so think option 2 is the best but am not sure. Templar’s my alt and I don’t play it much, I just think templar zergs would be bad.

paulsimonps

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

Yup I agree. That would be the only change for this ability, and any other aoe heals that can be stacked.

Good thing is this will hopefully help with cutting down server calculations.

Seraphayel

If AoE damage skills stack AoE healing skills have to stack, too.

The problem with stacking things is due to how effective they are in this game. AoE damage will be brought down considerably which is a good thing for both PvE and PvP.

What I’d rather want to see in PvP is healing and damaging being brought in line for AoE overall, e.g. ST damage and heals are stronger and everything AoE related will be way weaker. Like when it comes to AoE skills one target gets the full effect, the second target 66% and all other targets 33% (for healing and damage). This would make AoE way less prominent in PvP and punish stacking skills.

paulsimonps

Seraphayel wrote: »

If AoE damage skills stack AoE healing skills have to stack, too.

The problem with stacking things is due to how effective they are in this game. AoE damage will be brought down considerably which is a good thing for both PvE and PvP.

What I’d rather want to see in PvP is healing and damaging being brought in line for AoE overall, e.g. ST damage and heals are stronger and everything AoE related will be way weaker. Like when it comes to AoE skills one target gets the full effect, the second target 66% and all other targets 33% (for healing and damage). This would make AoE way less prominent in PvP and punish stacking skills.

I can see that, but how to make that so that it doesn't hit PvE too hard. They rely a lot on AoEs with the larger numbers of adds and trash mobs. Having to single them all down would not be fun and it would yet again...... be a case of PvP ruining it for everyone.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Seraphayel wrote: »

If AoE damage skills stack AoE healing skills have to stack, too.

+1

RogueShark

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

humpalicous wrote: »

Legit.
Matriarch is op. It heals 2 targets akin to BoL, takes up two bar slots, has no aoe damage/heal component, and doesn't purge. And it can die.

...Wait, that's nothing like retribution...
Provides neither the utility or AoE component on heals or damage.
Huh.

Sure, and templar aslo have OP shields , streak , best execute in the game , etc ?
JUST STOP COMPARING SKILL BY SKILL

Please read.
My post was satire against someone else comparing two totally different skills.
Thanks.

Sandman929

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

You realize it stacks right now on live right, without devastation?

Minno

Sandman929 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

You realize it stacks right now on live right, without devastation?

You do realize we think that's a bug that should be changed, right? Didn't matter if pts or live.

paulsimonps

Minno wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

You realize it stacks right now on live right, without devastation?

You do realize we think that's a bug that should be changed, right? Didn't matter if pts or live.

And didn't its heal get buffed by like 90+%?

Iskiab

Minno wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

You realize it stacks right now on live right, without devastation?

You do realize we think that's a bug that should be changed, right? Didn't matter if pts or live.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

You realize it stacks right now on live right, without devastation?

You do realize we think that's a bug that should be changed, right? Didn't matter if pts or live.

And didn't its heal get buffed by like 90+%?

Yup, but won’t making ritual not stack hurt Templar’s too much in a group setting?

I’m all for small scale, but let’s not weight the balance scale too much in their favour. Some small scalers already come off as arrogant because they see their playstyle as the only ‘skillful’ pvp. If too much is done to help them the forums would become nauseating.

Sandman929

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

We already mentioned that. But the heals shouldn't stack at all on the same morph. That should be consistent across all AOE based heals IMHO.

If the Healing stacks from the same morph it would have devastating effects in both PvE and PvP. You could make a trial of 10 DPS Templars and their Healing per Second would be insane with everyone just using RoR, no healer needed there. They would get like 15000 health every second, more with crits and if any other heal stacked like that it could be even more. In PvP they could planket an area and have extreme coverage of both insane healing cause of the stack and the damage.

Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.

You realize it stacks right now on live right, without devastation?

You do realize we think that's a bug that should be changed, right? Didn't matter if pts or live.

And didn't its heal get buffed by like 90+%?

So why would any group of more than one Templar get use from their skill? Or they shouldn't?

Massacre_Wurm

brandonv516 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A couple of points we’ve chosen not to focus on.

1. Ritual is a class skill. Imo it should be more unique and powerful than a weapon skill line.
2. Ritual costs about twice as much.

you didnt say that when refreshing path got nerfed, did you?

and now that turn evil does a way better job than mass hysteria i havent seen a word from you saying turn evil is too strong or mass hysteria too low.

again, only nightblade's skills are under the rule of "1 skill = 1 effect" while other classes can have skills that does:

1/ heal
2/ dmg
3/ purge x2
4/ minor mending on yourself
5/ 30% snare on enemies
6/ purging all and healing synergy..

with heal and dmg on the same lvl has abilities that only deals 1effect... xD

this is balance 5.1

Sure , let's look on this "1skill = 1 effect" rule.

Reapers mark :
1/debuff
2/heal
3/buff
4/crit damage
5/weapon crit
6/restoring resources.

looks like ONE EFFECT TO ME

#2, #3 are conditional
#5 only beneficial to stamina players
#6 isn't a thing - doesn't do damage so doesn't return stamina or magicka (if you are referring to returning health then refer to #2)

Bad example. Nice try.

So conditional effect is not an effect ? How convenient.
Only stamina players ? Who cares ? Its still an effect of the skill.
6# Is a thing. Because its a debuff for Incapacitating Strike.

Using the same logic i can say that damage effect is conditional if noone is around or inside the area. Healing also if you leave the area.

Bad logic. Nice try.

:Sigh:

#6 is not a thing

When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damage by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher.

Mark does nothing to contribute to returning resources with the exception of health which is the same bullet point as #2

You're an idiot. Please come back when you decide not to be one.

#6 is a thing

Read my post again. Mark providing negative effect for for Incapacitating Strike:

Ravage an enemy with a swift strike, dealing 10166 Disease Damage and causing them to take 20% more damage from your attacks for 6 seconds. If cast with 120 or more Ultimate, the enemy is silenced for 3 seconds. While slotted you gain Reave, which restores [85 / 90 / 95 / 100] Magicka and Stamina when you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack on an enemy with a negative effect active on them.

You're an idiot. Please come back when you decide not to be one

Vlad9425

Someone at ZOS really likes templars lol

Sanguinor2

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Someone at ZOS really likes templars lol

Solar Barrage, blazing spear and every stam build in pvp getting free Major Evasion beg to differ.