Minno wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

The last time you posted on Templars it was about claiming how strong Dark Flare was with the major defile. You strongly supported the nerf to its damage because of the defile. However, players who play Templars every day spoke up about how the initial cast time was too long and it would never get used. You didn't listen. Guess what? I have yet to see Dark Flare being used since that patch went live. It's like a rare sight that your jaw drops when it happens. So I'm not sure how much players should pay attention to this thread.

That's because Templars are rarely seen outside of healing zerging because there mechanics they have on live don't support decent defense to justify the largely sustained pressure offense. Now with extra healing on extended ritual and living dark being proactive defense, Templar has been brought up to speed with other classes.

People like OP want to keep some classes down despite their intent on buffing underused classes/skills instead of huge nerfs (which is exactly this patch in a nutshell).

He's also a toolyip warrior, tried to prove that a litany of Templar abilities were overperforming even though they were balanced when looking at the full picture of basic combat situations.

#EndNoiseThreads2019

I see templars all the time in high mmr BGs, they are by far the most useful class to any team, magplars in particular, because (healing aside) of the utility they provide. I would rather have a magplar on my team than anything else and when I duo queue with one we usually win almost all of our BGs, and that will be even more true if this change to ritual goes through. In fact, I probably won't queue without that magplar because the only counter to the near permanent healing output and utility of a gigantic ritual will be, you guessed it, another ritual. It isn't fun playing against any team with such a huge advantage and because the ability is just so powerful/overloaded, the only real counter to it will be the same ability, balancing things out.

It's pretty clear you haven't experienced putting four dots onto a target and watched them be purged off when your target uses a synergy repeatedly, on multiple different targets because a templar put down a 24 second long ritual 16 seconds ago. For the cost of one ability, multiple people have up to six dots from myself and multiple debuffs (possibly including major defile and minor vuln from me) completely removed, and are also healed, and also receive resources back. The opportunity cost of the ability as it is on live is already completely out of line with basically anything else in the game if we compare it only to the cost of casting purge/efficient purge. How much damage can be mitigated by both the heal from the synergy and removing multiple dots and debuffs on multiple people? A lot. Already more than any other ability in the entire game, likely including ults. But we're also giving resources back because that's what every synergy does, giving value to any synergy regardless of what it is.

Once we include the healing over time, the possible damage, the minor mending, and the permanent snare, it starts to look really really stupid. Then we double the healing, or double the healing and the damage of the 12 second morph to be equal to current ground aoes that only do damage or only heal, and what do we get? Probably the most overloaded ability in the entire game, and here you are defending it.

Tooltips tell us what abilities have the potential to do, which is more useful than whatever it is you think you're contributing. Looking at a tooltip and learning that a ground aoe five times the size of blockade has the potential to do the same damage, and also learning that a ground aoe five times the size of healing springs has the potential to do the same amount of healing, makes it already seem a little suspect. Refreshing Path was nerfed for doing only these two things. Ritual of Retribution goes on to give minor mending, remove two debuffs, snare everyone in the largest ground aoe in the game, and provides your group with the best synergy in the game.

You haven't even come close to presenting a convincing argument as to why this an ability this overloaded should make it to the live servers besides "templars are bad cuz reasons" (they aren't), and haven't shown there to be any abilities even close to comparable in damage, healing, and utility in the entire game.

this isn't a good look, give it a rest

So, can the Matriarch get it's damage back too please?

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Please revert any templar changes. We dont want them to have 1 or 2 powerful class skills (just like every other class have).

Would you rather have cloak or ritual of retribution?

Retribution. Zero chance this will go live, those defending it are delusional.

Minno wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

ecru wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

The op's comparison is silly. Ritual is every 2 secs. Healing and Blockade are every 1 sec. The healing of Retribution has always been higher than extended. Templars were given higher healing and dmg with Retribution in exchange for only cleansing 2 harmful effects instead of 5. Retribution is also half the duration of Extended. And both morphs have received a resource cost increase.

ability a ticks 6 times for 200 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.
ability b ticks 12 times for 100 damage over 12 seconds for a total of 1200 damage.

Which ability is better? Don't forget to show your work!

The last time you posted on Templars it was about claiming how strong Dark Flare was with the major defile. You strongly supported the nerf to its damage because of the defile. However, players who play Templars every day spoke up about how the initial cast time was too long and it would never get used. You didn't listen. Guess what? I have yet to see Dark Flare being used since that patch went live. It's like a rare sight that your jaw drops when it happens. So I'm not sure how much players should pay attention to this thread.

That's because Templars are rarely seen outside of healing zerging because there mechanics they have on live don't support decent defense to justify the largely sustained pressure offense. Now with extra healing on extended ritual and living dark being proactive defense, Templar has been brought up to speed with other classes.

People like OP want to keep some classes down despite their intent on buffing underused classes/skills instead of huge nerfs (which is exactly this patch in a nutshell).

He's also a toolyip warrior, tried to prove that a litany of Templar abilities were overperforming even though they were balanced when looking at the full picture of basic combat situations.

#EndNoiseThreads2019

I see templars all the time in high mmr BGs, they are by far the most useful class to any team, magplars in particular, because (healing aside) of the utility they provide. I would rather have a magplar on my team than anything else and when I duo queue with one we usually win almost all of our BGs, and that will be even more true if this change to ritual goes through. In fact, I probably won't queue without that magplar because the only counter to the near permanent healing output and utility of a gigantic ritual will be, you guessed it, another ritual. It isn't fun playing against any team with such a huge advantage and because the ability is just so powerful/overloaded, the only real counter to it will be the same ability, balancing things out.

It's pretty clear you haven't experienced putting four dots onto a target and watched them be purged off when your target uses a synergy repeatedly, on multiple different targets because a templar put down a 24 second long ritual 16 seconds ago. For the cost of one ability, multiple people have up to six dots from myself and multiple debuffs (possibly including major defile and minor vuln from me) completely removed, and are also healed, and also receive resources back. The opportunity cost of the ability as it is on live is already completely out of line with basically anything else in the game if we compare it only to the cost of casting purge/efficient purge. How much damage can be mitigated by both the heal from the synergy and removing multiple dots and debuffs on multiple people? A lot. Already more than any other ability in the entire game, likely including ults. But we're also giving resources back because that's what every synergy does, giving value to any synergy regardless of what it is.

Once we include the healing over time, the possible damage, the minor mending, and the permanent snare, it starts to look really really stupid. Then we double the healing, or double the healing and the damage of the 12 second morph to be equal to current ground aoes that only do damage or only heal, and what do we get? Probably the most overloaded ability in the entire game, and here you are defending it.

Tooltips tell us what abilities have the potential to do, which is more useful than whatever it is you think you're contributing. Looking at a tooltip and learning that a ground aoe five times the size of blockade has the potential to do the same damage, and also learning that a ground aoe five times the size of healing springs has the potential to do the same amount of healing, makes it already seem a little suspect. Refreshing Path was nerfed for doing only these two things. Ritual of Retribution goes on to give minor mending, remove two debuffs, snare everyone in the largest ground aoe in the game, and provides your group with the best synergy in the game.

You haven't even come close to presenting a convincing argument as to why this an ability this overloaded should make it to the live servers besides "templars are bad cuz reasons" (they aren't), and haven't shown there to be any abilities even close to comparable in damage, healing, and utility in the entire game.

this isn't a good look, give it a rest

you write alot of fluff to say templars in high MMR bgs are basically healbots lol.

You also didnt show me any videos showing RoR overperforming, in a basic combat scenario. And If RoR is truely OP (TLDR; its not if you idiots stop standing in it lol), then it must be on par with matriach and thus templar buffed to compete with sorc.

But guess what, only an idiot runs RoR or is a pve templar, because they give up 5 debuff purge. If you like running against defiles, go ahead and run RoR. But those templars in that BG arent in a high MMR running a dmg templar and certainly aren't running much dmg to begin with lol. And the templars that do deal dmg, are likely the stamplar which DEFINITELY isnt running RoR.

Show me a vid, and I will shut up. Till then, stop only looking at the tooltips while creating these types of threads.

This post is about pvp and pve, not just pvp. Templars will likely be using ritual of retribution in pve, where it's still clearly doing more things at once than any ground aoe, while covering a much larger area. The heal was still doubled, and still lasts 18 seconds with the healing morph, and the snare/synergy/minor mending lasts 24 seconds. Both morphs of the ability are clearly overtuned/do too much at once.

We don't need videos to show that an ability like ritual is good. We already know it's good because we play the game (some of us, at least). We now know that it will be much, much better after the patch because the damage and healing was doubled. Even moreso because some of the best aoe heals and ground aoe damaging abilities were also nerfed. If your argument is somehow that ritual is not good in it's current iteration on the live servers, then you're going to have to provide a reason as to why I've never ran into a templar without it on their bar.

It's easy to imagine a hypothetical scenario where one ritual mitigates a metric *** ton of damage, but this isn't really hypothetical because it happens all the time in BGs. A Templar casts a ritual, and removes a large portion (or all) of the debuffs off of himself. He then gives himself minor mending. He then snares every single enemy in the area for 24 seconds. The circle continuously heals everyone inside of the gigantic area for the same as healing springs, only for 18 seconds after it's casted. On top of that, the other three teammates in his group are provided with a synergy that removes all debuffs off of them, heals them, and gives them back resources.

You're doing all of that for 4k magicka. Healing everyone for 18 seconds for the same as grand healing, getting minor mending, removing debuffs from yourself (potentially mitigating more than any heal would), snaring everyone else for 24 seconds, healing your teammates who use the synergy, removing all debuffs from your teammates who use the synergy, and giving resources back to your teammates who use the synergy.

Which ability does even close to all of that? If you put down refreshing path, it heals for about the same amount, covers a very tiny area in comparison, and gives people major expedition, and even then only for 12 seconds. If you put down twisting path, it just does damage instead. If you put down ritual of retribution, well, see above.

tbh it's hard to take anyone seriously who can't immediately see the problem here. are you just trolling now or what?

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Ritual of Retribution does as much as two other skills and also costs as much as two other skills. Oh noes!!! There's an efficiency on templar skill bars!! Furthermore, they save a GCD casting something that is great in PvP contests where other players stay on the templar's chosen terrain for long periods of time!!

heals constantly
purges the templar
gives minor mending
does damage
snares everyone
gives everyone a synergy that purges everything and heals

i'm nto great at math but i think that's more than two :thinking:

if you want to talk about cost, then we can talk about cost. boneyard costs 3700 mag and does less damage (without consuming a corpse) in a much smaller area than ritual of retribution does, and provides a synergy to either yourself or one other person that does damage. it also applies fracture inside of the tiny aoe with the other morph. that's it. ritual costs a bit more and does what i listed above, only it covers like ten times the area. lol.

for 25% more magicka can i get boneyard to cover ten times the area, purge debuffs off of me, give me minor mending, snare everyone inside of it, heal everyone inside of it, and provide a synergy to everyone inside of it? well, can i?

Minno wrote: »

This thread is dead until I see a video showing all the aoe based DMG skills in a basics combat veteran setting and a full list of their buffs/downsides.

Till then it's a noise thread and not actual f feedback.

Why do you need a video? Show me a video of it being ineffective.

A video is completely irrelevant to the thread.

Nerf Ritual, not Templar in general. Please look at that skill morph, it does like a dozen different things. Damage, healing, cleanse, synergy, snare, it procs Minor Mending and all the other stuff... it’s just way too much.

I think ritual should be the strongest ground healing effect because it’s a class defining ability for Templars.

However, if the current version goes live you could have 4 templar DPS in a trial and use 0 healers, maybe use 6 for vHoF HM. That’s... dumb.

Anyways, let’s be honest.... zero chance this goes live. Just the damage and healing alone would be enough to make it OP, the purge is just icing on the cake.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tfw ritual of Retribution is actually useful for once and it will most likely be nerfed again before even hitting live Servers .

It’s always been useful. Guaranteed it’ll be nerfed before going live.

Iskiab wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

This thread is dead until I see a video showing all the aoe based DMG skills in a basics combat veteran setting and a full list of their buffs/downsides.

Till then it's a noise thread and not actual f feedback.

Why do you need a video? Show me a video of it being ineffective.

A video is completely irrelevant to the thread.

Every magplar 1vX where you see the Templar dodge roll cancel purge to run away from a Zerg and those rare videos that show good 1v1 fights where the Templars target is moving lol.

Iskiab wrote: »

I think almost all healer Templars have been using retribution. For pve multiple effect purge isn’t really beneficial.

Still... correct me if I’m wrong here, but here’s how OP I see it being:

1. HPS of Ritual is > HPS of new Springs
2. Springs was buffed value wise, but it can no longer be stacked 4x.
3. No problem, stack dps Templars and instead stack retribution effects!

Bring 4 Templar DPS to your trial and have them run retribution. So for one cast every X seconds they can generate more healing then a full healer on live can do spamming spring.

The area of retribution is massive, it will capture the tank and allow way more flexibility of movement then live because of retribution’s area.

Get a dps like a NB for magic steal

You could add 1 healer or hybrid dps/healer just for Combat Prayer 2x for minor berserk for the raid and dps the rest of the time.

Either way it’ll make all healers (including Templars) redundant except for Combat Prayer. Templars still think retribution is worth defending?

Battlespirit+no CP is the only way to balance pve lol. Don't nerf PvP because pve players are lazy number-pushing-meta-sniffers lol.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Can we now go back to when refreshing path was a skill that was actually worth slotting now, Give that damage back, hmm?.

Seraphayel wrote: »

This is one of the skills that’s overloaded with stuff and should be adjusted asap. No reason for the damage morph to heal at all as that was changed for Nightblade‘s Path, too.

No it shouldn't be. this isn't WoW we don't have 100+ skill slots. skills being overloaded is not a problem.

Iskiab wrote: »

Point is 4x templar dps will have more hps then a full healer, give more synergies with shards, and be a no brainer choice to drop a healer in every pve raid.

So after the hilarious nerf to shards dmg you believe there will be magplars still running it, especially now that they have pseudo-aoe's like soul trap competing for bar space? Cripes soul trap can return hefty resources now making it quite useful for burning trash.

Edit: Also if you are so worried about dps off healing boy are you in for a treat when you realize what stam will be able to do.