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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for Multi-Bidding

  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    Outside of the this CM's "fluff posts" the Dev response to ongoing issues is still non existent, they show no signs of listening to players, nor of even caring what players want.

    Maybe but I personally sensed a climate change from the SWTOR dev side.
    In one of the twitch streams Keith talked about "challenging" his team to communicate differently with the community, so he's not directly involved and from that stream I think you can tell he's awkward about communications personally, so it's handed off to Musco and the other guy, the front liners.

    They implemented PvP-cheater punishment reporting, which was a pain point for a long time, and have long posts giving as much safe detail as possible about their internal process. And when things go bad like update screwups, they do outright apologize.
    So my two cents is they are trying, when it's easy to just throw up your hands and stop when the battle is uphill. And especially when responding to players not just on the forums but implementing even little things they want , takes time. Just the cheater punishment reporting now requires a new internal protocol that adds more person-hours, for example.

    And again I do feel it's hard to be very open as a dev because of NDA, trying to keep development secrets a secret, and in general the double-standard when it comes to what employees can say.

    With respect to what could happen here, I think ESO could give out more comprehensive "context for changes" notes. They already do that with skill adjustments. But we also have to be careful what we wish for. We might not like what we hear, especially if a situation has gone on too long and been embedded.
    For example, if they said Light Attack Weaving was never intended? Hell it'd be the end of the world. The producer would tweet that meme and then the forum would melt all over again.
  • Gandrhulf_Harbard
    Gandrhulf_Harbard
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    For example, if they said Light Attack Weaving was never intended? Hell it'd be the end of the world.

    That is already a known fact.

    Originally skill-weaving was officially considered an exploit, there were ZoS Posts stating exactly that.

    It was only when they realised that they had no idea at all how to stop it that ZoS called it "a feature".


    All The Best
    Those memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
    Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.
  • Grimm13
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Thing is, ZOS is not opening a dialog as in a two way conversation.

    - Why should they ? We're not game designers, we are players with the point of view of players (and only this point of view). They have many other constraints and points of view. Besides, I'm not even sure we know what's good for us as players in the long term.
    - This "conversation" would not be "two ways", it would be multiways, or infinite-ways. What you described as "we" doesn't exist. Some people (that includes myself) have disagreed with you all over those threads, and the vast majority of GMs and trading players haven't even participated. There's no consensus on this issue - unlike what you try to make it sound.
    - A proper conversation requires both sides listening to each other. You claim that they haven't listened to you... but have you listened to them... ? Really ... ?

    My mistake, meant to use communication instead of conversation. Yes it is impossible on a forum to keep a coherent conversation going, so many hijacks take place or it just plain devolves.

    Point I was making is that ZOS should create a Guilds sub-forum group. They should also use it to post what they are thinking, just like they do with combat changes. Players can respond with their opinions, present new concerns.

    Right now an important aspect of the game that keeps players active when if solo they would have moved on to other games is being treated with disdain. We have to post into sub-forums where it gets buried quickly and not seen.

    I acknowledge that they do listen sometimes. Evidence being the blacklist cause that I championed is now in game. But it does get frustrating when they say they want to get better at communications but refuse to take a simple step of creating a sub-forum for Guilds when pointed out it's lacking. With it we then know right where to post and to look towards for information instead of having to hunt or guess which forum it's in / to use.
    Have you Voted on Update 23?
    I Voted with my $, canceled ESO+

    PC-NA
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    OsManiaC wrote: »
    Knowing is like I can show something or tell possible outcomes with respects to know-how,, science, logic, math etc.
    .../...
    I know that, the guy who will try to take your craglorn spot and lose, will use his/her other 9 chances also in similar or the ones that is ok for its level. And this chain reaction will hit me hard in the end.. Thats why me and lots of people will plan to increase their bids, due to knowledge. They plan and act accordingly to this knowledge, not because of believing.
    .../...
    A hardcore trading GM has money to bid 10 similar or below places; craglorn, mournhold, alinor, rimmen, wayrest, grahtwood, morrowind. In same week. And he/she probably wins one of 10 in all cases. A troll / jumper guild sniped them which happens once in 6 weeks ? worry no more.
    .../...
    elo.png?width=1357&height=578

    I snipped some of your post for clarity but I read it all and respond to it as a whole.

    You think you argue with knowledge and logic, but I think your reasoning is based on false premises, made of beliefs and habits.
    You think in terms of "higher-tier", "mid-tier" and "low-tier" locations. That's pure habit.
    Sure, some locations are objectively better than others, due to the small wayshrine-traders distance, and other factors such as undaunted hub, bank, writs, crafting stations, refuge, stables. Given these objective criteria, Craglorn should NOT be the number one place, and many other locations should be considered as very good locations (Sentinel, Coldharbour, Stormhold, just to name a few).
    This artificial and frozen "hierarchy" of locations is a big prejudice for both guilds and buyers because it channels the flow to just a few places. Multibidding will not cause "mid-tier guilds to be forced onto lower-tier locations". It will cause good guilds to go onto good but currently underused locations. It will cause buyers to visit more locations for traders, the whole market will expand for everyone's benefit. Potentially, even the out-of-the-way traders will finally sell good stuff and people will be interested in visiting them. In the end, we'll perhaps have 200 "good locations" instead of the current 30 or so.
    You may or may not agree with this vision, but you cannot pretend that yours is more "true" , "rational" or "objective" than mine. Yours is based on the thinking framework of "tiered locations" and that framework is vastly based on irrational things - that's why it causes prejudice and needs to be changed.

    Also, you keep referring to guilds that don't have the financial means to place 10 bids. I've already explained how that's objectively a wrong argument. Since you can only win ONE bid, all that matters is that none of your 10 bids is higher than your guild bank (or whatever amount you're willing to spend for a kiosk). For the remaining 9 other bids, you borrow the gold from your members. It's a zero risk business, and every half-serious trader sits on a double-digit million sum of gold. Easy.
    Being able to place 10 bids does NOT mean that you need to earn the cash first, since you'll only ever win one bid. And that's an objective fact. Just borrow.

    Now to the elephants. Yes, the grass suffers when elephants fight. But the loosing elephant will leave the herd (probably with part of it) and seek another territory. That's how they expand and safeguard genetic exogamy. In the end, it's beneficial to everyone - and grass will regrow. And if there's one objective thing that can be said about the current trading guilds system in ESO, it's taht it's become faaar too endogamic.

  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    So, if we took your stand, we would still be doing trader flip at 5:30AM and setting alarms just to do trader bids.
    If we just stayed silent we would still have guild history and bids seen by all...
    Has we just rolled over and not criticized or given our thoughts and feedback, MANY changes would not have happened.

    We are not children who have to take whatever ZoS hands us without question.

    Just to clarify : I was referring to the demand of having a two-way conversation.
    It's more than OK to provide feedback, express disagreements with ZOS choices, criticize and make suggestions. ZOS may or may not take those into consideration.
    But it's not okay (in my opinion) to expect, let alone demand a proper two-way conversation where each side explains and defends their arguments and reach some sort of compromise.
    The only time a dev from ZOS held a proper "conversation" (basically, a chat, not a prepared Q&A with pre-filtered questions) was Rich, it lasted about half an hour before he started getting insulted and provoked, and we all know how it ended.
    Even if we were all perfectly civil and polite (I think most of us in these threads are) : explaining is one thing, justifying is another. ZOS needs to explain (they did), but doesn't have to justify themselves.
    And yes, we're the customers. Not the boss of them.
    I'm not sure the current true bosses of ZOS make the best choices for the game, but I believe that if we, players, were the true boss of ZOS, the result would be worse (that's assuming we'd agree amongst ourselves).

    But I digress. I just wanted to clarify that my remark was about a two-way-conversation, a debate. Not general feedback which is, of course, okay, even if negative.

    (EDIT :smile:
    NB1 : sorry english is not my native language and I'm not sure I use the 3rd person singular/plural properly when applied to ZOS/they...
    NB2 : I like your "Huzzah" :-) May "borrow" it for some other forums, if you'll let me ;-) )

    Thank you for the clarification. You are right to a point.
    Rich was not the only "2-way" conversation.
    Remember when Summerset was being released? Zo$ invited 12 people to come and test it. PvP'rs, streamers, and casual players all went to ZoS Studios for a week to test and discuss with the devs. They have done this several times, invite people to the studio to test and discuss the game.
    Well, there was a group of GM's that communicated with ZoS every month or so and I was just wanting to know what happened to them and if we could PLEASE have a roundtable with ZoS and GM's to discuss these Guild Changes.
    (Multi bidding & Guild History).

    On a personal level, I have been taking a break from ESO. Reasons not on topic for here, but not only am I back but "working" extra now to get ready for these changes, (setting up a raffle, communicating with guildies about changes, explaining why we lost our trader, searching for 2nd, 3rd bids, etc.). This is one of the things that got lost in this post is that running a guild is work. Now it just adds extra hours a week to just running said guild(s). And no, I'm am not going to beg and borrow from my guildies.
    I agree that the Forums are not the best source of ideas and feedback at times, but when we have this many threads and a majority consensus on a subject, then yes the Devs should stop and pay attention. They have in the past....
    Yes we need solutions to ghost traders, etc, but this is not the way imo.....

    And for the "HUZZAH!!". Lol... I was a "Rennie" for years. I had booth and actor at Renaissance Festivals for decades. And that is the main word you will hear there, so it just stuck. But feel free to use it anytime you please M'Lady!! Huzzah!! :)

    My 2 drakes..... Please @_ZOS, reconsider these changes. Listen to alternate options that we, the players and GM's have offered.
    Thank You!

    Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP 1150+
    NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
    GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
    Sister Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more
    "Not All Who Wander are Lost"
    #MOREHOUSINGSLOTS
    “When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”

    _Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    reoskit wrote: »
    I believe these threads have gone quiet because we have finally come to acknowledge that our feedback is worthless to ZOS.

    Also they are TL;DR after the first page.

    I think we should try for a Closing Arguments thread where we do NOT discuss each other's closing argument to ZOS as that would quickly inflate the thread into TL;DR and be a non-starter with devs.
    Instead, try to get to your point concisely with reasoned arguments so ZOS can skim the data quickly one last time before the window for changes closes.

    This thread is already 11 pages with a lot of back and forth. If (big IF?) they were paying attention, I don't think they'd want to wade through it anymore.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 4, 2019 6:22AM
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    I dont think its worth doing. you just use up your time for a fight which is useless. they just dont care.

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    reoskit wrote: »
    I believe these threads have gone quiet because we have finally come to acknowledge that our feedback is worthless to ZOS.

    Also they are TL;DR after the first page.

    I think we should try for a Closing Arguments thread where we do NOT discuss each other's closing argument to ZOS as that would quickly inflate the thread into TL;DR and be a non-starter with devs.
    Instead, try to get to your point concisely with reasoned arguments so ZOS can skim the data quickly one last time before the window for changes closes.

    This thread is already 11 pages with a lot of back and forth. If (big IF?) they were paying attention, I don't think they'd want to wade through it anymore.

    They've already officially announced Multi-bidding, 10 bids and all.

    The die is cast, Rubicon crossed, and its going Live.

    Best thing to do now is pay attention to the ramifications once it hits the Live Servers, keep records of it, and if it turns out to be a disaster, bring up those specific examples to ZOS.
  • DragonRacer
    DragonRacer
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    I said my piece and as Varanis stated above, it's already officially announced. A few times now. So, it's not rolling back before it hits Live.

    It seems ESO's goal with this is to shake things up and have guilds going all over the place helter skelter. Even though that runs counter to the concept of providing less stress and pressure to GMs - fully the opposite. My guild already city hops out of necessity - if we sit in one place longer than two weeks, the Mafia starts driving up trader bid prices to push us out again - so the only effect this change is personally having on my guild is the stress of raising EXTRA funds for back-up bids plus the inflated trader prices all are predicting will hit because of this helter skelter mass hysteria that ESO believes will be awesome and healthy and less stressful/less pressure on GMs (I'm laughing inside, really I am).

    I'm not posting much anymore because instead of enjoying playing the game, I am farming my tail off every moment I can to try and build up extra coin for back-up bids. This is my life for the rest of this month.
    PS4 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 160+) - and Vice-GM of The Dragon Chasers - a free beginners trading guild (all levels welcome). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer13
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    I'm not posting much anymore because instead of enjoying playing the game, I am farming my tail off every moment I can to try and build up extra coin for back-up bids. This is my life for the rest of this month.

    If you're at this point, you should stop. This is nothing which will make u happy on the long run.

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    They've already officially announced Multi-bidding, 10 bids and all.

    The die is cast, Rubicon crossed, and its going Live.

    As for official announcements, they'd have to market something confidently. To say "we're CONTEMPLATING multi-bidding, maybe UP TO 10 bids..." would just sound wishy-washy and lame.

    They can still revise that with a positive PR message of "having LISTENED to community feedback, we are revising our plan to 3 bids... blah blah blah". So if they spin it right they won't lose face.

    Rebellions are built on hope. LOL.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 4, 2019 7:39PM
  • DragonRacer
    DragonRacer
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    I'm not posting much anymore because instead of enjoying playing the game, I am farming my tail off every moment I can to try and build up extra coin for back-up bids. This is my life for the rest of this month.

    If you're at this point, you should stop. This is nothing which will make u happy on the long run.

    Nah. ;)

    PS4 NA. GM of The PTK's - a free trading guild (CP 160+) - and Vice-GM of The Dragon Chasers - a free beginners trading guild (all levels welcome). Also a werewolf, bites are free when they're available. PSN = DragonRacer13
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Remember when Summerset was being released? Zo$ invited 12 people to come and test it. PvP'rs, streamers, and casual players all went to ZoS Studios for a week to test and discuss with the devs. They have done this several times, invite people to the studio to test and discuss the game.
    Well, there was a group of GM's that communicated with ZoS every month or so and I was just wanting to know what happened to them and if we could PLEASE have a roundtable with ZoS and GM's to discuss these Guild Changes.
    (Multi bidding & Guild History).

    If I remember correctly... some/most of the people who have been invited, this year or last year, weren't all too happy when they read the patch notes and wondered why they even bothered going... The Class Rep programme went through troubled waters... I remember clearly those meetings over TeamSpeak back in the days, but I don't know how they went nor why they were stopped. Obviously, even in such a restricted, organized and structured way, "two-way conversation" isn't that easy...
    Also, regarding multibidding and trading guilds in general, I believe the starting points of view are far too divergent for a dialogue to lead anywhere - but I've explained that plenty already, let's not repeat and run around in circles.
    And no, I'm am not going to beg and borrow from my guildies.

    That really boggles me. Why ? It's not "begging", it's simply making it a collective effort instead of a single person's. And lending money for bids isn't even "work" nor "effort". Are you too shy, too proud, or want to concentrate the power in your hands only ? (Just thinking out loud here, I don't believe any of those 3 applies to you). Or maybe not enough truly trustworthy people in the guild (spies issues ?). Really, I don't get that. It's like if a PVE guild leader said he wants to beat a raid alone because it doesn't want 11 others to join him...
    I'm not posting much anymore because instead of enjoying playing the game, I am farming my tail off every moment I can to try and build up extra coin for back-up bids. This is my life for the rest of this month.

    I don't get that. Really. Why not make this a bit of a collective effort ? Besides, people are generally happier when helpîng and participating than with having to pay - even if it's the same gesture in the end...
  • juttaa77b16_ESO
    juttaa77b16_ESO
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    OsManiaC wrote: »

    I believe this will turn out for the better. they think it will turn out for the worst. So far so good - but the problem is, they don't "believe". They think they "know".

    First of I totally understand your idea. And yes you are right if I put myself in your position, as I had to agree. But for my position things are different thats why I am like #1 in anti-multi bidding

    For me, believe and knowledge is also different

    Believing is like I cannot show evidence but I feel/hope that it will happen.

    Knowing is like I can show something or tell possible outcomes with respects to know-how,, science, logic, math etc.

    so, I wish I can say I believe/hope things will be better.

    But I cannot.

    I know that, the guy who will try to take your craglorn spot and lose, will use his/her other 9 chances also in similar or the ones that is ok for its level. And this chain reaction will hit me hard in the end.. Thats why me and lots of people will plan to increase their bids, due to knowledge. They plan and act accordingly to this knowledge, not because of believing.

    A hardcore trading GM has money to bid 10 similar or below places; craglorn, mournhold, alinor, rimmen, wayrest, grahtwood, morrowind. In same week. And he/she probably wins one of 10 in all cases. A troll / jumper guild sniped them which happens once in 6 weeks ? worry no more.

    A casual trading GM has no money to bid 10 similar or below places, and now he or she has more competitors ( losers) for their spot. He/she cannot fight every week against these losers.

    I may be in X spot for months. but after update 23 I know I cannot.

    I don't know if it is really African or not, but it suits here.

    elo.png?width=1357&height=578

    I agree. This is simple common sense out of knowledge and experience. I couldn't have said it better myself.

    This upcoming change is already impacting the trade system very negatively.

    ZOS pleeease, reconsider delaying the 10x bidding changes until a better solution can be found.

    Best Regards
    Edited by juttaa77b16_ESO on August 8, 2019 11:57PM
  • juttaa77b16_ESO
    juttaa77b16_ESO
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Thing is, ZOS is not opening a dialog as in a two way conversation.

    - Why should they ? We're not game designers, we are players with the point of view of players (and only this point of view). They have many other constraints and points of view. Besides, I'm not even sure we know what's good for us as players in the long term.
    - This "conversation" would not be "two ways", it would be multiways, or infinite-ways. What you described as "we" doesn't exist. Some people (that includes myself) have disagreed with you all over those threads, and the vast majority of GMs and trading players haven't even participated. There's no consensus on this issue - unlike what you try to make it sound.
    - A proper conversation requires both sides listening to each other. You claim that they haven't listened to you... but have you listened to them... ? Really ... ?

    So, if we took your stand, we would still be doing trader flip at 5:30AM and setting alarms just to do trader bids.
    If we just stayed silent we would still have guild history and bids seen by all...
    Has we just rolled over and not criticized or given our thoughts and feedback, MANY changes would not have happened.

    We are not children who have to take whatever ZoS hands us without question. We are the consumers. They are the company who is dependent on consumers, i.e. "us". ( I myself have 9k+hrs ingame and subbed every month since early launch. My thousands of dollars spent say I can voice my opinion.) And when SO many consumers agree on a point, i.e. multi-bidding is bad, then Zo$ should listen.
    Not sure the GM's you have consulted with, but the GM's I have talked to (Mournhold, Rawhl, etc), are concerned and only one have I found like the change. (They have a very small fishing guild and have a hard time keeping a kiosk).
    Bethesda and Zeni were always about communicating and listening to it's players all the way back to TES1:Arena. (Akatosh was names after a forum poster).
    There once was a group of GM's that got together with the Dev's once a month or so, which is where a lot of changes became reality in first years of ESO. So yes, our voice is necessary and should be heard.

    We understand you like the change, thats ok, but don't look down on the majority who voice their opinion or ask us to be silent on this matter. Will Zo$ listen? maybe, maybe not, but it is our right and obligation to tell them what we think anyway..
    And they should open a discussion with us about it as @Grimm13 suggested.

    My 2 Drakes..... Huzzah!!

    P.S. Zos, this is a bad idea.....

    I absolutely agree. I hope. ZOS reconsiders to delay the update. They made a great decision to remove back up traders. However, the 10x multi bidding change is so wrong, and for all of the reasons we have given. With all due respect, it would be much better, if they discussed 10x's bidding with the GM's. I'm sure. A much better solution can be reached to benefit both ZOS, and the entire player base who supports TESO.
    Edited by juttaa77b16_ESO on August 9, 2019 12:19AM
  • OsManiaC
    OsManiaC
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    They asked to feedback and we gave it. Going to copy-paste my comment below

    It is over. Most guilds already increased fees and sale requirements. It is a bad day not because they will implement this system.

    It is bad because they refuse to listen to GMs who were dedicated/experts to trading or the GMs who try their best for trading ( I am in the second team) who were against this idea.

    Even I don't think they listen to the ones who agree on this topic, I understand them and agree on some points if I see in their point of view, but ZOS ? I am not sure they read your comments as I did. So in the end, both sides are on the same team for me.

    I only judge due to my experience with bosmer losing stealth and this multi-bidding. I know ZOS is working and trying to listen with lots of things. This topic is just not their priority, maybe they have a list that they put points to most important to less (as it should be due to resources), maybe they change in future. But for today I learned trading is in meh topics.
    The Argonian Kebab, The Argonian Steak & The Argonian BBQ - PC - EU @OsManiaC

    We sell top quality Argonian Tail BBQ, T-bone Steak, Lé Argonian Hardened handbag, Fresh Argonian Scale Soup!

    Don't worry, the tail grows back!
    if it breathes we eats. #justbosmerthings
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    Well, it went live... :(
    50+ pages of feed back over multiple threads. One response.... :(
    Thank you @ZOS_PhilipDraven for that one response.

    Yup, lost our trader which is in a town but not a main hub. Cost- 250k-350k a week avg. Lost to a bid over 650k.
    Small guilds now have no chance if they don't have a GIANT amount of gold in their coffers.
    Thanks for listening ZoS! You make us feel special!! (sarcasm intended).

    So in order to prepare we have been running a raffle. Can we talk about Guild History bugs and changes? Not sure the add on but my history is blank!!! Luckily I have kept up to date on it up to today.

    "Tiss a sad day for GM's in Tamriel, Mighty ZoS has struck out....."
    Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP 1150+
    NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
    GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
    Sister Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more
    "Not All Who Wander are Lost"
    #MOREHOUSINGSLOTS
    “When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”

    _Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)
  • reoskit
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    Can we talk about Guild History bugs and changes? Not sure the add on but my history is blank!!! Luckily I have kept up to date on it up to today.

    Mine's not blank, but it's weirdly spaced out.

    y33b6wmpvk5v.png
  • Dusk_Coven
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    Well, it went live... :(
    50+ pages of feed back over multiple threads. One response.... :(
    Thank you @ZOS_PhilipDraven for that one response.

    Yup, lost our trader which is in a town but not a main hub. Cost- 250k-350k a week avg. Lost to a bid over 650k.
    Small guilds now have no chance if they don't have a GIANT amount of gold in their coffers.
    Thanks for listening ZoS! You make us feel special!! (sarcasm intended).
    [/b][/i]

    I'd still like to see ZOS devs do guild kiosk bidding in the live system so they can have a real sense of what goes on in each platform.
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    Well, it went live... :(
    50+ pages of feed back over multiple threads. One response.... :(
    Thank you @ZOS_PhilipDraven for that one response.

    Yup, lost our trader which is in a town but not a main hub. Cost- 250k-350k a week avg. Lost to a bid over 650k.
    Small guilds now have no chance if they don't have a GIANT amount of gold in their coffers.
    Thanks for listening ZoS! You make us feel special!! (sarcasm intended).
    [/b][/i]

    I'd still like to see ZOS devs do guild kiosk bidding in the live system so they can have a real sense of what goes on in each platform.

    +1^
    Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP 1150+
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  • reoskit
    reoskit
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    Well, it went live... :(
    50+ pages of feed back over multiple threads. One response.... :(
    Thank you @ZOS_PhilipDraven for that one response.

    Yup, lost our trader which is in a town but not a main hub. Cost- 250k-350k a week avg. Lost to a bid over 650k.
    Small guilds now have no chance if they don't have a GIANT amount of gold in their coffers.
    Thanks for listening ZoS! You make us feel special!! (sarcasm intended).
    [/b][/i]

    I'd still like to see ZOS devs do guild kiosk bidding in the live system so they can have a real sense of what goes on in each platform.

    And use legitimate means to come up with all the gold required to keep a guild afloat, if you please.
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
    ✭✭✭✭
    reoskit wrote: »
    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    Well, it went live... :(
    50+ pages of feed back over multiple threads. One response.... :(
    Thank you @ZOS_PhilipDraven for that one response.

    Yup, lost our trader which is in a town but not a main hub. Cost- 250k-350k a week avg. Lost to a bid over 650k.
    Small guilds now have no chance if they don't have a GIANT amount of gold in their coffers.
    Thanks for listening ZoS! You make us feel special!! (sarcasm intended).
    [/b][/i]

    I'd still like to see ZOS devs do guild kiosk bidding in the live system so they can have a real sense of what goes on in each platform.

    And use legitimate means to come up with all the gold required to keep a guild afloat, if you please.

    When I made the suggestion, I didn't mean it as a sarcastic or spiteful challenge to ZOS. It meant it genuinely.
    And it's totally feasible, IF we have some guilds willing to "take one for the team" and turn over control of bidding to the devs for about a month.

    They would let their assigned dev know their previous bidding behavior, and strictly follow instructions.
    Then win or lose, they'd update the dev on what their guild experienced -- roster changes, methods to raise gold to support the next bidding objective, etcetera. Basically, they would only react to the bid outcome but not decide on how to bid at all.

    So in this way you have LIVE server insight with real guilds undergoing realistic consequences and taking realistic responses.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 14, 2019 4:58AM
  • reoskit
    reoskit
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    reoskit wrote: »
    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    Well, it went live... :(
    50+ pages of feed back over multiple threads. One response.... :(
    Thank you @ZOS_PhilipDraven for that one response.

    Yup, lost our trader which is in a town but not a main hub. Cost- 250k-350k a week avg. Lost to a bid over 650k.
    Small guilds now have no chance if they don't have a GIANT amount of gold in their coffers.
    Thanks for listening ZoS! You make us feel special!! (sarcasm intended).
    [/b][/i]

    I'd still like to see ZOS devs do guild kiosk bidding in the live system so they can have a real sense of what goes on in each platform.

    And use legitimate means to come up with all the gold required to keep a guild afloat, if you please.

    When I made the suggestion, I didn't mean it as a sarcastic or spiteful challenge to ZOS. It meant it genuinely.
    And it's totally feasible, IF we have some guilds willing to "take one for the team" and turn over control of bidding to the devs for about a month.

    They would let their assigned dev know their previous bidding behavior, and strictly follow instructions.
    Then win or lose, they'd update the dev on what their guild experienced -- roster changes, methods to raise gold to support the next bidding objective, etcetera. Basically, they would only react to the bid outcome but not decide on how to bid at all.

    So in this way you have LIVE server insight with real guilds undergoing realistic consequences and taking realistic responses.

    [removing Gina ping]

    I'm suppose I'm not really following what this experiment is meant to achieve. I wasn't being sarcastic in the least. I thought the point was to have ZOS go through the experience of bidding.

    What I was pointing out is that there is *so* much more to bidding than clicking a button. The effort required to generate funds for bidding (and a guild's receptivity to said efforts) absolutely informs decisions on bidding behavior. It's easy to be the person who just pulls the trigger on "Bid X". Knowing and doing what it takes to have X in your guild bank to be able to use it for a bid... that's a different matter altogether.

    The issue on the whole is so, sooo much bigger than the technical mechanics of bidding. Unless you're putting in the work behind generating funds, I don't think you're getting the whole experience.

    Again, perhaps I'm just not understanding the objective of the experiment.
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    ✭✭✭✭
    u wont be able to make devs feel the same for the time of bidding in an experiment. u only can feel it, if ure really into it and supportive towards a guild. for a dev in a random guild its only like "eh yeh got this trader" or "oh didnt get the trader whatever".

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
    ✭✭✭✭
    reoskit wrote: »
    The issue on the whole is so, sooo much bigger than the technical mechanics of bidding. Unless you're putting in the work behind generating funds, I don't think you're getting the whole experience.

    Again, perhaps I'm just not understanding the objective of the experiment.

    Without having them organically create and manage a guild, this is the closest we can do. Having them organically create and manage a guild to the point of being able to bid is an unrealistic time requirement, not to mention the time horizon before they can get a feasible guild going. And the artificial circumstances would probably result in unrealistic guilds anyway. Therefore we use real guilds and limit their interaction to focus on what data we want to capture (the bidding process and seeing the consequence to a guild).
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 16, 2019 5:21AM
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