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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for Multi-Bidding

  • Dusk_Coven
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Thing is, ZOS is not opening a dialog as in a two way conversation.

    Look at the type of forum threads that are created.
    Look at how players respond to other players in threads.

    I think ZOS probably has a very strict do-not-respond internal policy regarding forums, one that actually stops them from responding too much or at all.
    And I think that would be wise: They'd just be wading into a pool that's often garbage and trolling, and are liable to end up saying something that they "shouldn't" -- because the public always treats what is "acceptable" for an employee to say with a double standard. And then the parent company needs to step in and blah blah blah.
    I imagine @ZOS_GinaBruno either has a very thick skin or drinks a lot of milk for her ulcers. Not the kind of job I'd want.

    SWTOR has been trying (and quite successfully from what I've seen) to change the overall tone and quality of communication with players on their forums, while at the same time giving more feedback and participating more. But if you look at the dev tracker they are still really very careful in how they say things and what they respond to.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 1, 2019 4:44AM
  • Gandrhulf_Harbard
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    SWTOR has been trying (and quite successfully from what I've seen) to change the overall tone and quality of communication with players on their forums, while at the same time giving more feedback and participating more. But if you look at the dev tracker they are still really very careful in how they say things and what they respond to.


    I've been playing SWtOR since launch, and have been subbed (needed for access to their forum) for close on 80% of the time since launch.

    SWtOR community communication has always been abysmal. Under the previous Lead Producer - Ben Irving - that communication fell even further - with Ben once saying "we don't care what you think, we think it is exciting" on a Livestream and literally tens of thousands of players unsubscribing in that Livestream Chat. It was so bad EA Who tend to be very hands-off sending out a Customer Satisfaction survey, the replies to which saw Ben "promoted sideways" to Anthem - and we all know how well Anthem's launch went.

    The new LP - Keith Kanneg - started his tenure with a letter to the community promising better communication. That happened for about 3 months, and then went bag to being abysmal, in fact it went back to Ben Irving levels of abysmal, especially during the 2 years period of "nerfs and more nerfs" and the utterly awful Conquest revamp that, much like Morrowind for ESO, delivered the exact opposite of the stated intentions for the update (and much like Morrowind playtesters were telling then for weeks before it going live that it would do the opposite of what they intended).

    In fact in response to my questioning of Keith's commitment to "greater and better communication" when it was not forthcoming he is on record as saying he will no longer make promises he knows he can't or won't honour.

    Just recently a new Community Manager has been appointed and he is being more communicative, but it is entirely "fluff", nothing of substance, nothing responding to long-held concerns, nothing to show they are listening to the Community; just "infomercials" and highlighting so-called "content creators".

    Outside of the this CM's "fluff posts" the Dev response to ongoing issues is still non existent, they show no signs of listening to players, nor of even caring what players want.

    That is probably why they now only have 5 Servers, instead of the over 200 they had at launch, and which they needed to increase to deal with demand.



    All The Best
    Edited by Gandrhulf_Harbard on August 1, 2019 8:08AM
    Those memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
    Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    What I have seen so far on PC EU as a consequence of multi-bidding

    1. Flat fees are being introduced in many guilds e.g 10k
    2. Sales quotas are going up in some guilds
    3. GMs thinking about stepping down and actually stepping down
    4. Bickering between some GM's, as some are trying to avoid bidding against people and others are planning to spread bids
    5. Big alliances are strategically planning
    6. People have been leaving guilds
    7. The priority is shifting towards income rather than community

    Way to go Zos, what was already a high pressure environment has gotten even more salty.
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    What I have seen so far on PC EU as a consequence of multi-bidding

    1. Flat fees are being introduced in many guilds e.g 10k
    2. Sales quotas are going up in some guilds
    3. GMs thinking about stepping down and actually stepping down
    4. Bickering between some GM's, as some are trying to avoid bidding against people and others are planning to spread bids
    5. Big alliances are strategically planning
    6. People have been leaving guilds
    7. The priority is shifting towards income rather than community

    Way to go Zos, what was already a high pressure environment has gotten even more salty.

    1. That's not a consequence of multibidding (which is not even implemented on live yet). That's the consequence of what some GMs think multibidding will lead to, rightly or wrongly. My guild (a big Craglorn guild) hasn't introduced any fees.
    2. Same as point 1. My guild (a big Craglorn guild) hasn't increased its (already fairly low) sales requirements.
    3. Their call. Others will take over. Do I sound ungrateful ? I am not ungrateful. But new people will do the job too.
    4. Always has been this way, nothing new under the sun.
    5. Always has been this way, nothing new under the sun. Nothing wrong with that anyway.
    6. Always has been this way, nothing new under the sun. New people will join. Not an issue.
    7. In a trading guild, the communities are created around the common interest of making income. Both goals are linked and cannot "shift".

  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Out of curiosity, what's your Craglorn guild?

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Out of curiosity, what's your Craglorn guild?

    If I had wished to mention it, I would have.
    The reason I don't is that the GMs have carefully avoided to be associated in this hysteria around multibidding. I respect that.

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on August 1, 2019 10:53AM
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Ah, I don't know why you would think mentioning in which guild out of other 499 members you are, would draw conclusions about the GMs position on that topic. I wouldn't think that way, and it wasnt meant that way.

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Thing is, ZOS is not opening a dialog as in a two way conversation.

    - Why should they ? We're not game designers, we are players with the point of view of players (and only this point of view). They have many other constraints and points of view. Besides, I'm not even sure we know what's good for us as players in the long term.
    - This "conversation" would not be "two ways", it would be multiways, or infinite-ways. What you described as "we" doesn't exist. Some people (that includes myself) have disagreed with you all over those threads, and the vast majority of GMs and trading players haven't even participated. There's no consensus on this issue - unlike what you try to make it sound.
    - A proper conversation requires both sides listening to each other. You claim that they haven't listened to you... but have you listened to them... ? Really ... ?

  • OsManiaC
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Thing is, ZOS is not opening a dialog as in a two way conversation.
    - A proper conversation requires both sides listening to each other. You claim that they haven't listened to you... but have you listened to them... ? Really ... ?

    I don't understand this. there are hundreds of people here that would love to listen devs, if they talk.

    Publishing news and gone totally is not talking. huge responses come online but they only checked the bugs. we never talked about this. as we never talked bosmer stealth for pve&roleplaying people

    what would you do, if they just publish update 24 remove all kiosks in craglorn and never respond?
    The Argonian Kebab, The Argonian Steak & The Argonian BBQ - PC - EU @OsManiaC

    We sell top quality Argonian Tail BBQ, T-bone Steak, Lé Argonian Hardened handbag, Fresh Argonian Scale Soup!

    Don't worry, the tail grows back!
    if it breathes we eats. #justbosmerthings
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    OsManiaC wrote: »
    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Thing is, ZOS is not opening a dialog as in a two way conversation.
    - A proper conversation requires both sides listening to each other. You claim that they haven't listened to you... but have you listened to them... ? Really ... ?

    I don't understand this. there are hundreds of people here that would love to listen devs, if they talk.

    Publishing news and gone totally is not talking. huge responses come online but they only checked the bugs. we never talked about this. as we never talked bosmer stealth for pve&roleplaying people

    what would you do, if they just publish update 24 remove all kiosks in craglorn and never respond?

    The devs have talked and all they got as a "response" from players in this thread (I mean, the 3 or 4 current active threads dealing with multibidding) was "you're wrong - we're right". These people don't want to listen to ZOS. They want ZOS to listen to them. That's not how a proper two-way conversation works. No amount of "conversation" will change the fact that those players think they're right and ZOS is wrong.
    That's what I meant.

    Besides, some premises are simply incompatible and would make any "conversation" useless.

    People here against multibidding think that the current stability is good for the game. ZOS thinks more competition and uncertainty (that's how I understand their choices and explanations) is good for the game. No amount of "conversation" will change those opposite points of view.

    People here against multibidding think that multibidding will lead to more injustice, big guilds becoming bigger and smaller guilds being stripped out of the system. ZOS thinks (again, my interpretation) it will lead to a more even distribution around Tamriel, and a fairer equalization of all kiosks. While "people here" keep thinking in terms of "higher-tier, middle-tier and lower-tier locations". No amount of "conversation" will change those opposite points of view.

    People here against multibidding think it will lead to everyone bidding against everyone without much discernment, and therefore to a higher risk and stress for GMs regarding bids. ZOS thinks it will relieve stress because of reducing the risk of remaining kioskless. No amount of "conversation" will change those opposite points of view.

    I could go on and on. A proper conversation would lead nowhere since "people here" are not even close to ready to accept the bases of ZOS' position. (And probably vice-versa).

    EDIT : to answer your question : not sure why they'd remove all kiosks in Craglorn, but let's assume, for the sake of the demonstration, that they had a reason for it : I would simply go somewhere else, like everyone would, regardless of whether I consider said reason as valid or not. There are TONS of decisions from ZOS I consider bad (combat, business model, game design, UI, whatever). Multibidding is not one of them in my view but it is in yours and I respect that. But even in the case of decisions that I consider "bad", I don't think any "conversation" will solve that because, in those cases, what I want (and think is good for the game) is so far away from what ZOS wants (and think is good for the game) that any "conversation" is pretty much useless.

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on August 1, 2019 12:17PM
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild Anita and you are way off in your denial.

    Have fun with multi-biding
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild Anita and you are way off in your denial.

    Have fun with multi-biding

    Who is it, who is it 😳

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild

    The more you know :-)

    But if you knew that much, you wouldn't be spreading lies like you're currently trying to.
  • stpdmonkey
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    With the change to making it so ghost guilds can no longer sell a trader this is a redundant thing to have 10 bids. Most guilds cannot afford to place 10 bids as you have to have enough gold to cover each bid even tho you will only win one.
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild

    The more you know :-)

    But if you knew that much, you wouldn't be spreading lies like you're currently trying to.

    I think you should take that back Anita. you are not even on the GM discord channels.
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild Anita and you are way off in your denial.

    Have fun with multi-biding

    Who is it, who is it 😳

    Well they are all on the same channel we are both on ;)
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild Anita and you are way off in your denial.

    Have fun with multi-biding

    Who is it, who is it 😳

    Well they are all on the same channel we are both on ;)

    Wait, I'm still not kicked for beeing rude? Gonna need to improve my performance.

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    Lol I know the Gms of your craflorn guild Anita and you are way off in your denial.

    Have fun with multi-biding

    Who is it, who is it 😳

    Well they are all on the same channel we are both on ;)

    Wait, I'm still not kicked for beeing rude? Gonna need to improve my performance.

    There is a reason I don't comment, oh the backlash!
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    What are u scared of? I hope not of me. I usually do not run around threaten and bidding guilds for arguing with me like others do, so feel free.
    Edited by Dont_do_drugs on August 1, 2019 3:26PM

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    What are u scared of? I hope not of me. I usually do not run around threaten and bidding guilds for arguing with me like others do, so feel free.

    Lol no not bidding :) was joking about chit chat on channel
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Ah I get it now 🤣

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    So, if we took your stand, we would still be doing trader flip at 5:30AM and setting alarms just to do trader bids.
    If we just stayed silent we would still have guild history and bids seen by all...
    Has we just rolled over and not criticized or given our thoughts and feedback, MANY changes would not have happened.

    We are not children who have to take whatever ZoS hands us without question.

    Just to clarify : I was referring to the demand of having a two-way conversation.
    It's more than OK to provide feedback, express disagreements with ZOS choices, criticize and make suggestions. ZOS may or may not take those into consideration.
    But it's not okay (in my opinion) to expect, let alone demand a proper two-way conversation where each side explains and defends their arguments and reach some sort of compromise.
    The only time a dev from ZOS held a proper "conversation" (basically, a chat, not a prepared Q&A with pre-filtered questions) was Rich, it lasted about half an hour before he started getting insulted and provoked, and we all know how it ended.
    Even if we were all perfectly civil and polite (I think most of us in these threads are) : explaining is one thing, justifying is another. ZOS needs to explain (they did), but doesn't have to justify themselves.
    And yes, we're the customers. Not the boss of them.
    I'm not sure the current true bosses of ZOS make the best choices for the game, but I believe that if we, players, were the true boss of ZOS, the result would be worse (that's assuming we'd agree amongst ourselves).

    But I digress. I just wanted to clarify that my remark was about a two-way-conversation, a debate. Not general feedback which is, of course, okay, even if negative.

    (EDIT :smile:
    NB1 : sorry english is not my native language and I'm not sure I use the 3rd person singular/plural properly when applied to ZOS/they...
    NB2 : I like your "Huzzah" :-) May "borrow" it for some other forums, if you'll let me ;-) )

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on August 1, 2019 6:02PM
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    I think you should take that back Anita. you are not even on the GM discord channels.

    And I think you should assume that you don't know about that.
    But even if I'm not, does that prevent me from expressing my opinion ? You see, that attitude tells A LOT about what's going on in these threads, and GMs believing they know everything better, do everything better, and have extra permissions as compared to anyone else.
    Who is it, who is it 😳

    You're the queen of drama queens :-)
    And that's an achievement ! Lots of competition in that field :-)

    Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on August 1, 2019 6:06PM
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Yes I am, but after all I am not exploiting, I am not running around complaining bout exploits while using them myself with cheap excuses, i am not complaining bout crown selling gm while stocking up 200k crowns to sell em, I am not comparing myself to deadric prince's and I tend to express my disagreement with issues, if necessary not in the licky licky way. And I tend to remember my own words instead of changing my ethics for opportunistic selfish reasons. Makes me drama queen, maybe, but I can still say my vest is clean. And it makes me less of a joke than others.

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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  • Fiktius
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    I think you should take that back Anita. you are not even on the GM discord channels.

    And I think you should assume that you don't know about that.
    But even if I'm not, does that prevent me from expressing my opinion ? You see, that attitude tells A LOT about what's going on in these threads, and GMs believing they know everything better, do everything better, and have extra permissions as compared to anyone else.

    You know, it doesn't matter are you a member of trade guild, are you GM of trade guild or somebody completely outside.
    Everyone have a right to express their opinion and your position doesn't make your opinion more valid than others.

    Regardless of position, at the end opinion is - you know - only an opinion.
    Position does not make an opinion great. Sometimes even people on high position are capable to come up with very dumb ideas.

    What here matters most is that based on opinion of ZOS, there will be consequences which people involved into trading scene will have to go through.

    One of my favorite games used to have a slogan which I will never forget:
    "There is your opinion and then there's a truth."

    It's up to ZOS to figure out what's the truth here.
    Edited by Fiktius on August 1, 2019 6:22PM
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Fiktius wrote: »
    I think you should take that back Anita. you are not even on the GM discord channels.

    And I think you should assume that you don't know about that.
    But even if I'm not, does that prevent me from expressing my opinion ? You see, that attitude tells A LOT about what's going on in these threads, and GMs believing they know everything better, do everything better, and have extra permissions as compared to anyone else.

    You know, it doesn't matter are you a member of trade guild, are you GM of trade guild or somebody completely outside.
    Everyone have a right to express their opinion and your position doesn't make your opinion more valid than others.

    At the end regardless of position, at the end opinion is - you know - only an opinion.
    Position does not make an opinion great. Sometimes even people on high position are capable to come up with very dumb ideas.

    What here matters most is that based on opinion of ZOS, there will be consequences which people involved into trading scene will have to go through.

    One of my favorite games used to have a slogan which I will never forget:
    "There is your opinion and then there's a truth."

    It's up to ZOS to figure out what's the truth here.

    I never pretended my opinion to be more "true" or valid than anyone else's. But the anti-multibidding crowd pretends to "know the truth". When the only currently valid truth is that noone knows how this will unfold ingame and how things will settle : higher bids ? lower bids ? more equality between trader spots ? More customer traffic overall ? Less empty trader stalls ?

    I believe your statement applies more to the anti-multibidding crows than to me.

    I believe this will turn out for the better. they think it will turn out for the worst. So far so good - but the problem is, they don't "believe". They think they "know".
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Admittingly, u have a point there 😉

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

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    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Egal, wie gut du Schach spielst, die Taube wird alle Figuren umwerfen, auf das Brett kacken und herumstolzieren, als hätte sie gewonnen.
  • Fiktius
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    Fiktius wrote: »
    I think you should take that back Anita. you are not even on the GM discord channels.

    And I think you should assume that you don't know about that.
    But even if I'm not, does that prevent me from expressing my opinion ? You see, that attitude tells A LOT about what's going on in these threads, and GMs believing they know everything better, do everything better, and have extra permissions as compared to anyone else.

    You know, it doesn't matter are you a member of trade guild, are you GM of trade guild or somebody completely outside.
    Everyone have a right to express their opinion and your position doesn't make your opinion more valid than others.

    At the end regardless of position, at the end opinion is - you know - only an opinion.
    Position does not make an opinion great. Sometimes even people on high position are capable to come up with very dumb ideas.

    What here matters most is that based on opinion of ZOS, there will be consequences which people involved into trading scene will have to go through.

    One of my favorite games used to have a slogan which I will never forget:
    "There is your opinion and then there's a truth."

    It's up to ZOS to figure out what's the truth here.

    I never pretended my opinion to be more "true" or valid than anyone else's. But the anti-multibidding crowd pretends to "know the truth". When the only currently valid truth is that noone knows how this will unfold ingame and how things will settle : higher bids ? lower bids ? more equality between trader spots ? More customer traffic overall ? Less empty trader stalls ?

    I believe your statement applies more to the anti-multibidding crows than to me.

    I believe this will turn out for the better. they think it will turn out for the worst. So far so good - but the problem is, they don't "believe". They think they "know".

    You gave me perfect opportunity to quote you due your comment was related.
    However my comment was more towards everyone, not directly to you only. ^^

    Even if we have completely opposite opinion about the case itself, you are right:
    Everyone are completely free to express their opinions.

    People around trade guilds will deal with consequences, no matter which opinion will end up to reality.
  • Dusk_Coven
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    The devs have talked and all they got as a "response" from players in this thread (I mean, the 3 or 4 current active threads dealing with multibidding) was "you're wrong - we're right". These people don't want to listen to ZOS. They want ZOS to listen to them. That's not how a proper two-way conversation works. No amount of "conversation" will change the fact that those players think they're right and ZOS is wrong.

    This is one of the reasons I think the devs should play the Guild Stores on the LIVE server where you have a real ecology.
    They could make dummy guilds and bid, although that wouldn't have the full impact of other aspects of guild management that are impacted by having a trader or not.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno PROPOSAL: A cross-section of maybe 10 guilds volunteer to SECRETLY turn bidding control over to selected devs for the first month.
    The guild GM tells the dev what their bidding history was like over the last few weeks. Then for the next weeks going forward, they strictly follow the bidding instructions of the dev assigned to their Guild. The GM then reports on guild feedback and changes over the week, whether they have a guild or not. Such things like sales, roster changes, possibly member loss from not having a trader, feedback from members, etcetera.

    Without live server experience, devs can only speculate on our experience.
    Maybe with that live server experience, they can data-gather and confirm or rethink their internal objectives for Guild Stores and the economy at large.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on August 1, 2019 10:37PM
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