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The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs
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MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs."I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4331 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs.
That´s why i only talk about the server i have some insight and people to talk to on that i know are quality players.
Trying to paint me as clueless by saying sth about PC-NA when the first statement i made is about PC-EU doesn´t help any point you´re trying to make.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Non-pet magsorc is still a top tier spec in Elsweyr. This is coming from someone who has mained it for the majority of the time since CWC (Nov 2017), in case anyone questions my bias.
Claiming that sorcs need a Twilight to be competitive is BS, and a poor excuse for running pets. Between Dark Conversion, Surge, Resto ult and healing ward, the spec has more-than-adequate healing for all modes of PvP.
It won't beat a meta stamDK 1-on-1, sure, but that's not saying much since no spec currently does. The utility that the sorc toolkit provides makes it much more useful in open world and BGs, however. It's also clearly overperforming in BGs right now—although that's more a function of how the BG format favours range and positioning, and not necessarily an intrinsic issue with the class itself.Edited by TheYKcid on July 1, 2019 8:18AMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden8 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs.
That´s why i only talk about the server i have some insight and people to talk to on that i know are quality players.
Trying to paint me as clueless by saying sth about PC-NA when the first statement i made is about PC-EU doesn´t help any point you´re trying to make.
I'm not trying to make any point. You're simply wrong and that's all there is to it. There's plenty of top lvl mag sorcs in the US who don't use pets because they have self respect and consider them a crutch. Whether you're in EU or NA, that's irrelevant. We're all playing the same game.
The poster above me is one of them. Living proof that your statement is incorrect.Edited by MaxJrFTW on July 1, 2019 8:18AM"I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4330 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs.
That´s why i only talk about the server i have some insight and people to talk to on that i know are quality players.
Trying to paint me as clueless by saying sth about PC-NA when the first statement i made is about PC-EU doesn´t help any point you´re trying to make.
I'm not trying to make any point. You're simply wrong and that's all there is to it. There's plenty of top lvl mag sorcs in the US who don't use pets because they have self respect and consider them a crutch. Whether you're in EU or NA, that's irrelevant. We're all playing the same game.
The poster above me is one of them. Living proof that your statement is incorrect.
Can´t comment on that. All i know is the servers metas are so vastly different that generalized statements are hardly possible.
No idea about the poster above you.
Imo running shieldstack is just as much of a crutch on sorc as is running pets. So i take any statement that doesn´t exclude both commenting sorc balance with more than one grain of salt.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They're not mutually exclusive.
Many of the low-rent PCNA Sorcs have been copypasting the Pelican build, which involves a Hardened+Harness stack in addition to pets.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden0 -
kyle.wilson✭✭✭✭✭
✭KurtAngle2 wrote: »Streak nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Frag nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Shields nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Healing Ward nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Whats your problem now?
Shields weren't really nerfed and the magsorcer got his pet ENORMOUSLY buffed to the point that they do *** of dps and healings whilst messing with targeting. All of this whilst maintaining great dps and best execute in the game
You obviously weren't here before the first massive nerf to shields that cut duration to 6 sec.
As for the best execute, you're oblivious. Mages wrath enters execute range at 20% health, when almost every other execute starts scaling at <50%.
Solo sorcs are sometimes a thing. Small scale pvp they are almost non existent. Stam warden takes the lead in both areas. most of the 6man groups I see are at least 50% stam warden often not needing an external healer.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »KurtAngle2 wrote: »Streak nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Frag nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Shields nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Healing Ward nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Whats your problem now?
Shields weren't really nerfed and the magsorcer got his pet ENORMOUSLY buffed to the point that they do *** of dps and healings whilst messing with targeting. All of this whilst maintaining great dps and best execute in the game
You obviously weren't here before the first massive nerf to shields that cut duration to 6 sec.
As for the best execute, you're oblivious. Mages wrath enters execute range at 20% health, when almost every other execute starts scaling at <50%.
Solo sorcs are sometimes a thing. Small scale pvp they are almost non existent. Stam warden takes the lead in both areas. most of the 6man groups I see are at least 50% stam warden often not needing an external healer.
Mage's Wrath in PvP is so good because of its reactive nature. You hardly can counter it when they place Mage's Wrath on you and you're hit by a CC + Frags/Curse combo.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »KurtAngle2 wrote: »Streak nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Frag nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Shields nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Healing Ward nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Whats your problem now?
Shields weren't really nerfed and the magsorcer got his pet ENORMOUSLY buffed to the point that they do *** of dps and healings whilst messing with targeting. All of this whilst maintaining great dps and best execute in the game
You obviously weren't here before the first massive nerf to shields that cut duration to 6 sec.
It was pretty obvious to me he was talking about the recent changes to shields, not something that happened several years ago.kyle.wilson wrote: »As for the best execute, you're oblivious. Mages wrath enters execute range at 20% health, when almost every other execute starts scaling at <50%.
Except with every other execute, you actually have to use it when the target is in execute range, or it has little effect. With the way health bars yo-yo in today's laggy PvP, it is virtually impossible to
1, see the enemy is in execute range
2, cast an execute
3, have the execute land while the enemy *still* is in execute range.
Not so with the sorc execute. You just cast it whenever you want, and it conveniently auto-executes the target whenever the execute threshold is reached. That's a HUGE advantage over other executes, and what makes it the 'best'.
3 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs.
You said that you played sorc for two weeks but consider someone who made 100+kk AP on magsorc as clueless, nice one. How are high MMR relevant when the MMR system doesn't even allow you to lose MMR?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs.
You said that you played sorc for two weeks but consider someone who made 100+kk AP on magsorc as clueless, nice one. How are high MMR relevant when the MMR system doesn't even allow you to lose MMR?
What does that have to do with anything?
I don't care how long you've been playing a class for. If you think non pet mag sorcs are garbage in bgs, you're clueless. Once again, several of the best mag sorcs on PC NA do not use pets. By saying non pet magsorcs are bad you're just embarrassing yourself. That's the reality of the matter. End of story.
If you agree with his statement, then you're just as clueless.Edited by MaxJrFTW on July 1, 2019 10:47AM"I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4330 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They're not mutually exclusive.
Many of the low-rent PCNA Sorcs have been copypasting the Pelican build, which involves a Hardened+Harness stack in addition to pets.
Malcolm promoted that aswell
Anyone bring the shame bell!!!<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
He's clueless. Several of the best magsorcs on pc na don't even use matriarch in bgs.
You said that you played sorc for two weeks but consider someone who made 100+kk AP on magsorc as clueless, nice one. How are high MMR relevant when the MMR system doesn't even allow you to lose MMR?
What does that have to do with anything?
I don't care how long you've been playing a class for. If you think non pet mag sorcs are garbage in bgs, you're clueless. Once again, several of the best mag sorcs on PC NA do not use pets. By saying non pet magsorcs are bad you're just embarrassing yourself. That's the reality of the matter. End of story.
If you agree with his statement, then you're just as clueless.
Just that i didn´t say non pet sorc is garbage per se.
It just has more garbage potential than other classes for the average or slightly above player and against really well coordinated groups.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself4
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Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
But you enjoy pugfarming in open world??? Not that it's relevant. What is relevant is that this argument you posted doesn't really have substance. Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?
Why would a magDK have 0 group heals slotted - that´s a debateable build choice.
Medium stamblade i agree - they have no place in 4v4v4 brawls with lots of ground aoe flying around.
Why is it easier for sorc to be *** in a group setting than other classes (and by other classes i mean heavy stam, magden, magplar and some magDK builds)?
They´re easier to shut down by a competent enemy group/players. This goes for offense and defense - as those are split entirely for sorc. Pressuring an enemy sorc if done right when not outright killing them will remove any offense of them from the fight.
They´re harder to support by their own group due to their defense mechanism being non scaling + being a class with litte healing synergy.GhostofDatthaw wrote: »Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself
Magblade is hot garbage this patch due to sustain issues regardless of what you do with it - except if you enjoy wasting everyones time by trolling them.Edited by Derra on July 1, 2019 11:16AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Magsorc is still by far the best Magicka class and overloaded with everything from shields to CC to crazy burst to super strong pets. Too much of everything.
Yet Stamina based classes still outperform MagSorc in both PvE and PvP. If anything I'd say the other Magicka classes should be brought up to Sorc lvl or Stamina class should take a huge nerf to be balanced with magicka classes.
Yes and no. Other Magicka classes should get buffed to match Magicka Sorcs, nevertheless Sorcs are overloaded with stuff. It’s just too much overall and things like the reactive execute are just the cherry on the cake. They have too much at this point and need to be toned down in one or the other way. Doesn’t mean other Magicka specs should stay as underwhelming as they are (or Stamina as potent as it is right now).
So you are just here crusading for a nerf to MagSorc, the only relevant magicka spec in the game. With no care of balance what so ever, with the other magicka specs and the nearly 2 year Stamina META correct?
Ok we are done here. Please leave thread! You and others can't be taken one bit serious on discussions about balance. When you don't care about it in the first place.2 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭
But you enjoy pugfarming in open world??? Not that it's relevant. What is relevant is that this argument you posted doesn't really have substance. Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.
Sorc offense is single target and pre loaded, and sorc defense is mostly single target or far too expensive to be spammed for group.
High damage AoE instant burst cut anim ultimate is the easiest and the most commun way to burst in a coordinated way.
DBoS, Leap, Cressent sweep, Soul theter all of that are AoE and instant.
You cannot quickly burst when the situation is favourable with a sorc. You need to prepare the burst far more, and in a group where almost everyone can burst in a single instant global cooldown in AoE, sorc need a minimum of 3s to burst and it's mostly single target.
You need more work to coordonate with a group on a sorc for less effect (single target).
You cannot just retrun and suddently drop huge AoE instant cast damage the second after the group leader told to you.
An exemple of that work is to coordonate an atronach synergy with a curse into frag into execute, while all your other member need to depend on your own timing if they want to hit in the same global cooldown.
In not organised group, if you see ur teamate making an AoE burst, you cannot react in a single GCD.3 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭
But you enjoy pugfarming in open world??? Not that it's relevant. What is relevant is that this argument you posted doesn't really have substance. Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.
Sorc offense is single target and pre loaded, and sorc defense is mostly single target or far too expensive to be spammed for group.
High damage AoE instant burst cut anim ultimate is the easiest and the most commun way to burst in a coordinated way.
DBoS, Leap, Cressent sweep, Soul theter all of that are AoE and instant.
You cannot quickly burst when the situation is favourable with a sorc. You need to prepare the burst far more, and in a group where almost everyone can burst in a single instant global cooldown in AoE, sorc need a minimum of 3s to burst and it's mostly single target.
You need more work to coordonate with a group on a sorc for less effect (single target).
You cannot just retrun and suddently drop huge AoE instant cast damage the second after the group leader told to you.
An exemple of that work is to coordonate an atronach synergy with a curse into frag into execute, while all your other member need to depend on your own timing if they want to hit in the same global cooldown.
In not organised group, if you see ur teamate making an AoE burst, you cannot react in a single GCD.
Everything you said can be applied to like every mag class in different situations. You think magnb has an instant upfront damage burst? Does warden? Does templar? MAYBE dk with fossilize leap but still, do you have ultimate up?
In terms of "sudden aoe" hmm atro? Yeah it's not massive burst, but it's a zone controller for sure, and a major berserk synnergy? Come of dude atro is slick.
And what about an overload weaver in the back line? Those builds dish out crazy damage.
The point is Magsorc is the best mag class atm, along with being easy mode to play. If you want to nerf sorc or buff all the other mag classes doesn't matter. From where we stand now sorc is top dog easymode0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »
Everything you said can be applied to like every mag class in different situations. You think magnb has an instant upfront damage burst? Does warden? Does templar? MAYBE dk with fossilize leap but still, do you have ultimate up?
In terms of "sudden aoe" hmm atro? Yeah it's not massive burst, but it's a zone controller for sure, and a major berserk synnergy? Come of dude atro is slick.
And what about an overload weaver in the back line? Those builds dish out crazy damage.
The point is Magsorc is the best mag class atm, along with being easy mode to play. If you want to nerf sorc or buff all the other mag classes doesn't matter. From where we stand now sorc is top dog easymode
Try negate instead of atro, most valuable ult out there for organized Groups.
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »GhostofDatthaw wrote: »
Everything you said can be applied to like every mag class in different situations. You think magnb has an instant upfront damage burst? Does warden? Does templar? MAYBE dk with fossilize leap but still, do you have ultimate up?
In terms of "sudden aoe" hmm atro? Yeah it's not massive burst, but it's a zone controller for sure, and a major berserk synnergy? Come of dude atro is slick.
And what about an overload weaver in the back line? Those builds dish out crazy damage.
The point is Magsorc is the best mag class atm, along with being easy mode to play. If you want to nerf sorc or buff all the other mag classes doesn't matter. From where we stand now sorc is top dog easymode
Try negate instead of atro, most valuable ult out there for organized Groups.
I was just using atro because he said " aoe damage"
Yeah negate is sweet, that is if you're not vs a whole stam squad0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »
But you enjoy pugfarming in open world??? Not that it's relevant. What is relevant is that this argument you posted doesn't really have substance. Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.
Sorc offense is single target and pre loaded, and sorc defense is mostly single target or far too expensive to be spammed for group.
High damage AoE instant burst cut anim ultimate is the easiest and the most commun way to burst in a coordinated way.
DBoS, Leap, Cressent sweep, Soul theter all of that are AoE and instant.
You cannot quickly burst when the situation is favourable with a sorc. You need to prepare the burst far more, and in a group where almost everyone can burst in a single instant global cooldown in AoE, sorc need a minimum of 3s to burst and it's mostly single target.
You need more work to coordonate with a group on a sorc for less effect (single target).
You cannot just retrun and suddently drop huge AoE instant cast damage the second after the group leader told to you.
An exemple of that work is to coordonate an atronach synergy with a curse into frag into execute, while all your other member need to depend on your own timing if they want to hit in the same global cooldown.
In not organised group, if you see ur teamate making an AoE burst, you cannot react in a single GCD.
Everything you said can be applied to like every mag class in different situations. You think magnb has an instant upfront damage burst? Does warden? Does templar? MAYBE dk with fossilize leap but still, do you have ultimate up?
In terms of "sudden aoe" hmm atro? Yeah it's not massive burst, but it's a zone controller for sure, and a major berserk synnergy? Come of dude atro is slick.
And what about an overload weaver in the back line? Those builds dish out crazy damage.
The point is Magsorc is the best mag class atm, along with being easy mode to play. If you want to nerf sorc or buff all the other mag classes doesn't matter. From where we stand now sorc is top dog easymode
You don't get it.
Coordinated burst is around ultimate.
DKs have leap, Templar have crecent, NB have soul theter, Necro have flesh atro and warden is played as a support because it's very good at it (but shalk being AoE can be timed).
Atro little damage and to profit the synergy, you either need to place atro before the burst for a teamate or the synergy will be activated after the burst.
Sorc isn't performing better than a Bloodspawn fury Seventh offensive S&B stam build.
Sorc have an easy floor, but the ceilling isn't.
There is no link between something easy to start with and something overperforming.
You don't play at competitive level if you think the low floor of sorc make it 'top dog easy mode"Edited by Aedaryl on July 1, 2019 12:11PM1 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »
But you enjoy pugfarming in open world??? Not that it's relevant. What is relevant is that this argument you posted doesn't really have substance. Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.
Sorc offense is single target and pre loaded, and sorc defense is mostly single target or far too expensive to be spammed for group.
High damage AoE instant burst cut anim ultimate is the easiest and the most commun way to burst in a coordinated way.
DBoS, Leap, Cressent sweep, Soul theter all of that are AoE and instant.
You cannot quickly burst when the situation is favourable with a sorc. You need to prepare the burst far more, and in a group where almost everyone can burst in a single instant global cooldown in AoE, sorc need a minimum of 3s to burst and it's mostly single target.
You need more work to coordonate with a group on a sorc for less effect (single target).
You cannot just retrun and suddently drop huge AoE instant cast damage the second after the group leader told to you.
An exemple of that work is to coordonate an atronach synergy with a curse into frag into execute, while all your other member need to depend on your own timing if they want to hit in the same global cooldown.
In not organised group, if you see ur teamate making an AoE burst, you cannot react in a single GCD.
Everything you said can be applied to like every mag class in different situations. You think magnb has an instant upfront damage burst? Does warden? Does templar? MAYBE dk with fossilize leap but still, do you have ultimate up?
In terms of "sudden aoe" hmm atro? Yeah it's not massive burst, but it's a zone controller for sure, and a major berserk synnergy? Come of dude atro is slick.
And what about an overload weaver in the back line? Those builds dish out crazy damage.
The point is Magsorc is the best mag class atm, along with being easy mode to play. If you want to nerf sorc or buff all the other mag classes doesn't matter. From where we stand now sorc is top dog easymode
You don't get it.
Coordinated burst is around ultimate.
DKs have leap, Templar have crecent, NB have soul theter, Necro have flesh atro and warden is played as a support because it's very good at it (but shalk being AoE can be timed).
Atro little damage and to profit the synergy, you either need to place atro before the burst for a teamate or the synergy will be activated after the burst.
Sorc isn't performing better than a Bloodspawn fury Seventh offensive S&B stam build.
Sorc have an easy floor, but the ceilling isn't.
There is no link between something easy to start with and something overperforming.
You don't play at competitive level if you think the low floor of sorc make it 'top dog easy mode"
I never once said it was stronger than stamina builds get out of here with that straw man.
You are also comparing an aoe dot from necro to an aoe dot from atro, do you not see the comparison here? Plus why not meteor??? I mean shot use that as queue and either rune cage have a NB fear or a dk fossilize, there is your start of a burst combo. Stop making excuses dude I'm mot saying "NeRf sOrC" just don't just and make it seem like the class is not easymode strong. And if thays how you still feel then.... something from your insult book....you obviously don't play high-level solo cyro if you think sorcs are weak.2 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Negate.
But you enjoy pugfarming in open world??? Not that it's relevant. What is relevant is that this argument you posted doesn't really have substance. Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?Seraphayel wrote: »
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
Excuse me but what kind of argument is "they have to work"? What do all the other Magicka DPS have to do then (which are all inferior to Magsorc)? Yes, they have to work. Yet they're still overperforming in that regard when compared to most other Magicka classes, if not all other.
Not really the argument i made. A slightly above average player brings more to the table on other classes than sorc imo and a top player against top opposition has a sharper drop off in performance on sorc than on other classes imo - not going into the mag vs stam debate.
I can tell you don't play BGs when you think a non pet sorc has a bigger chance to be hot garbage in BGs than other classes. Generally, the sorcs that play in a premade in high MMR know what they are doing, and are consistently providing value to their team with well placed negates, atronachs with major berserk synergy, and the ability to put pre executes on enemies, allowing them and their team to capitalize on the kbs. Not to mention their burst is very good when focussing to take out players 1 by 1, which premades often tend to do when facing capable opposition. You can keep repeating you find it a scoring problem and not a class problem, but the rules are as they are now and sorcs heavily benefit from it. Pets or no pets.
Still haven´t seen anyone say otherwise when looking at high mmr on EU-PC - atleast for gamemodes that require killing the enemy team.
The people i talk to seem to be more along the lines of: Sorc is great for 95% of what you can encouter. But the top 5% it´s suddenly not so great anymore (these being complete grp vs grp with dedicated healer).
Ah come on, people have trouble while playing as and vs premades with dedicated healers? Suprise. Non pet sorc is probably not the cheese of the month, but far away form being hot garbage. As nonpet you have to atleast work a little for the effort. My experience with high MMR and specialized setups is, that really competent sorcs dont block two or more bar slots with pets, because you get far more necessary utility by slotting other skills that benefit the group setup.
That´s the issue though - you have to work on nonpet (even on 1 pet setups).
I know very few sorcs actually capable of doing that - maybe a hand full on pc-EU.
There´s other classes definetly preferable over the possibility of a sorc being a liability instead of an asset to a premade. So for most players it is hot garbage when they can log onto another class and be more effective?
I don´t play BGs in high mmr that´s true as i don´t enjoy the noobstomping in grpqueue or potentially getting stomped by grps in solo queue.
For the hot garbage read one quote above.
Sorc offense is single target and pre loaded, and sorc defense is mostly single target or far too expensive to be spammed for group.
High damage AoE instant burst cut anim ultimate is the easiest and the most commun way to burst in a coordinated way.
DBoS, Leap, Cressent sweep, Soul theter all of that are AoE and instant.
You cannot quickly burst when the situation is favourable with a sorc. You need to prepare the burst far more, and in a group where almost everyone can burst in a single instant global cooldown in AoE, sorc need a minimum of 3s to burst and it's mostly single target.
You need more work to coordonate with a group on a sorc for less effect (single target).
You cannot just retrun and suddently drop huge AoE instant cast damage the second after the group leader told to you.
An exemple of that work is to coordonate an atronach synergy with a curse into frag into execute, while all your other member need to depend on your own timing if they want to hit in the same global cooldown.
In not organised group, if you see ur teamate making an AoE burst, you cannot react in a single GCD.0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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There are plenty of magdk's running around in BGs ending up with 0 grouphealing. Coagulating blood, embers, and powerlash provide enough healing to stay alive and some choose to run harness.Tell me how it is easier for sorc to be garbage in group than other classes? I gave you examples, but got none in return. If you ask me, it is a lot easier to be hot garbage on medium stamblade because they die in 2 hits and dont offer any group utility if played the rolly polly way. Or what about the magdk with 0 group heals slotted?
Why would a magDK have 0 group heals slotted - that´s a debateable build choice.
Medium stamblade i agree - they have no place in 4v4v4 brawls with lots of ground aoe flying around.
Why is it easier for sorc to be *** in a group setting than other classes (and by other classes i mean heavy stam, magden, magplar and some magDK builds)?
They´re easier to shut down by a competent enemy group/players. This goes for offense and defense - as those are split entirely for sorc. Pressuring an enemy sorc if done right when not outright killing them will remove any offense of them from the fight.
They´re harder to support by their own group due to their defense mechanism being non scaling + being a class with litte healing synergy.GhostofDatthaw wrote: »Lol @Derra "they have to work" come play magnb with me buddy. Let's build some mercy stacks together. Lol "work" god I almost pee'd myself
Magblade is hot garbage this patch due to sustain issues regardless of what you do with it - except if you enjoy wasting everyones time by trolling them.
I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.
That´s not neccessarily a good thing for group synergie though (streaking away) - it´s great for k/d ratio i don´t deny that.
A group that´s setup around melee and ground aoes will be able to support a focused target and generally speaking will have synergising defense (healing) aswell as create los issues by stacking on the focused player.
A sorc will somewhat counteract that by being forced to single itself out of the group (otherwise they´d most likely die anyway).
So while i do agree that other mag classes can face similar issues of being shut down compared to stam their defense doesn´t remove them from the fight in both offensive and defensive nature (their defenses also work on allied targets in case of quick target switches or such).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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Yea that is indeed correct. I'm not trying to convince people that magsorc provides best group utility in defense. In fact I hate playing as a stam character in a group of magsorcs because they provide little relief outside of pet heal (if they run pets), peeling with streak or the occasional resto ult if its up. On the other hand though a team full of sorcs is insanely annoying to fight, shuffling resto ults and bursting single players with curse stacking, etc., while being impossible to catch. Also works great with magdens who slot the teammate gapcloser.I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.
That´s not neccessarily a good thing for group synergie though (streaking away) - it´s great for k/d ratio i don´t deny that.
A group that´s setup around melee and ground aoes will be able to support a focused target and generally speaking will have synergising defense (healing) aswell as create los issues by stacking on the focused player.
A sorc will somewhat counteract that by being forced to single itself out of the group (otherwise they´d most likely die anyway).
So while i do agree that other mag classes can face similar issues of being shut down compared to stam their defense doesn´t remove them from the fight in both offensive and defensive nature (their defenses also work on allied targets in case of quick target switches or such).
But what I am saying is that, despite the above, they are valuable assets to their team for the reasons I mentioned earlier. These reasons are mostly on the offensive department. A team going for ult dump becomes that much more dangerous when a sorc streaks through them after he threw down a negate on top, all while being snared into a permafrost and receiving AoE burst from the other 2 ults. This is one of the most deadly combo's I've seen in BGs. And when in an all out brawl, attronach ofc provides insane utility and area denial. Nobody wants to stand in proximity to an attronach for long.
I wouldn't call them the best BG class though. That title goes to warden for me, with the amount of burst, healing and group support they bring.3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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Yea that is indeed correct. I'm not trying to convince people that magsorc provides best group utility in defense. In fact I hate playing as a stam character in a group of magsorcs because they provide little relief outside of pet heal (if they run pets), peeling with streak or the occasional resto ult if its up. On the other hand though a team full of sorcs is insanely annoying to fight, shuffling resto ults and bursting single players with curse stacking, etc., while being impossible to catch. Also works great with magdens who slot the teammate gapcloser.I can see your argument for shutting down into shield spam, but fail to see how this is any different for say a magplar. If magplar is pushed to defense, they are on their backbar and thats it. Sometimes magdk has the same problem, because they lack consistent rolling hots that stam has for example. Magicka classes in general are easier to lock down. Sorc however can streak away which they often do. People won't be chasing you in BGs like zerglings do in cyrodiil, because it is a waste of time. Guess which class regularly ends up with least deaths? Stamsorc and magsorc.
That´s not neccessarily a good thing for group synergie though (streaking away) - it´s great for k/d ratio i don´t deny that.
A group that´s setup around melee and ground aoes will be able to support a focused target and generally speaking will have synergising defense (healing) aswell as create los issues by stacking on the focused player.
A sorc will somewhat counteract that by being forced to single itself out of the group (otherwise they´d most likely die anyway).
So while i do agree that other mag classes can face similar issues of being shut down compared to stam their defense doesn´t remove them from the fight in both offensive and defensive nature (their defenses also work on allied targets in case of quick target switches or such).
But what I am saying is that, despite the above, they are valuable assets to their team for the reasons I mentioned earlier. These reasons are mostly on the offensive department. A team going for ult dump becomes that much more dangerous when a sorc streaks through them after he threw down a negate on top, all while being snared into a permafrost and receiving AoE burst from the other 2 ults. This is one of the most deadly combo's I've seen in BGs. And when in an all out brawl, attronach ofc provides insane utility and area denial. Nobody wants to stand in proximity to an attronach for long.
I wouldn't call them the best BG class though. That title goes to warden for me, with the amount of burst, healing and group support they bring.
Guess i can agree on most of that.
From playing sorc i just dislike how easy it is to seriously disrupt their performance if you know what you´re doing.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Non-pet magsorc is still a top tier spec in Elsweyr. This is coming from someone who has mained it for the majority of the time since CWC (Nov 2017), in case anyone questions my bias.
Claiming that sorcs need a Twilight to be competitive is BS, and a poor excuse for running pets. Between Dark Conversion, Surge, Resto ult and healing ward, the spec has more-than-adequate healing for all modes of PvP.
It won't beat a meta stamDK 1-on-1, sure, but that's not saying much since no spec currently does. The utility that the sorc toolkit provides makes it much more useful in open world and BGs, however. It's also clearly overperforming in BGs right now—although that's more a function of how the BG format favours range and positioning, and not necessarily an intrinsic issue with the class itself.
I’d take this guy’s opinion on sorcs as an expert on the subject. I’ve seen him a lot and he’s a great sorc.
Thing is I don’t think sorcs need to be nerfed a lot to be balanced. If all these suggestions go through it would be WAY over the top.
I think just adjust sorc burst damage a smidge would do it. Maybe play with the execute to bring down their burst damage a smidge and they’ll be fine.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0