The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

MaxJrFTW

Illuvatarr wrote: »

These are l2p issues

All of the other classes are stronger than sorc with equally skilled players.

This is just too ironic.

Qbiken

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Bloodspawn at best will have about 30-40% uptime (higest I've seen was about 55% after a bg where my healer was heavy focused by the other teams). Bloodspawn is not nerf worthy by any means.

Minno

Derra wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Actually agree on much you say here. Though not neccessarily on the reasons why things overperform.

But since you can approach other topics more rationally minded - why don´t you give us an idea WHAT you would want to change about magsorc?

I think the pet is fine, I think the heal is fine. It means Sorc as an identity is a master of conjuration. But if there pet stays, it needs some balance around it:
- no shield scaling off mag at less than 3k cost. They have a burst heal, crit surge and mobilty/range; the shield is too much benefit.
- pets shouldn't deal DMG. They instead should give passive benefit one can cc/interrupt like engine guardian (maybe extra speed, extra crits etc.)
- only one pet at a time. I think that should be a global rule because nightblades can roll shade+maw/shadowrend and warden bear. I think necro should be immune because their pets aren't permanent.
- any other fixes that relate to how sorcs feel the class plays. Like the frag stun is on cast time but there crystal frags is proc chance for instant. Both sound be instant one high DMG no stun, one Burma DMG but stuns. Stuff like that.

Mitaka211

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

These are l2p issues

All of the other classes are stronger than sorc with equally skilled players.

This is just too ironic.

Meanwhile ZOS is like "These are the types of players we need to listen to!"

If someone starts a comment with something like "It's a l2p issue" , his entire statement after that should be automatically deleted.

Iskiab

Qbiken wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Bloodspawn at best will have about 30-40% uptime (higest I've seen was about 55% after a bg where my healer was heavy focused by the other teams). Bloodspawn is not nerf worthy by any means.

Yea, I agree. If bloodspawn was nerfed people could just use 1 piece Chudan and 1 piece Pirate smelly for 100% uptime 6k resists.

I’ve noticed stat sets are almost always the best sets, it’s probably because of this mentality. Whenever a set is better then stats people want it nerfed, it’s silly.

About sorcs. If they do get adjusted I’d say ‘slightly’ reduce pet damage and ‘slightly’ reduce their burst.

All these pet targeting, shields, streak, whatever issues wouldn’t be an issue at all if a sorc couldn’t turn around and burst someone quickly while using the other mechanics.

pieratsos

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

It has a stacking cost increase, much smaller range than a gap closer, direction restrictions and height restrictions. It literally has counters built in the skill itself. What more do you want from it. Its one of the few abilities left in the game that rewards player skill. At some point, you just have to realise that not everything with the sorc is broken and maybe just maybe, some are actually better players and its not streak that is the problem.

Seriously this is getting really boring. Sorc has a million issues. Streak is not one of them.

pieratsos

Mitaka211 wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

These are l2p issues

All of the other classes are stronger than sorc with equally skilled players.

This is just too ironic.

Meanwhile ZOS is like "These are the types of players we need to listen to!"

If someone starts a comment with something like "It's a l2p issue" , his entire statement after that should be automatically deleted.

Yes ZOS, shouldnt listen to people posting dumb comments like "L2P". They should instead listen to people like you posting even dumber comments like " You guys are all delusional liars and ZOS has a weird sorc fetish". Cause obviously the latter is a much more constructive feedback and should be taken into account. Lmao.

jcm2606

Iskiab wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Bloodspawn at best will have about 30-40% uptime (higest I've seen was about 55% after a bg where my healer was heavy focused by the other teams). Bloodspawn is not nerf worthy by any means.

Yea, I agree. If bloodspawn was nerfed people could just use 1 piece Chudan and 1 piece Pirate smelly for 100% uptime 6k resists.

I’ve noticed stat sets are almost always the best sets, it’s probably because of this mentality. Whenever a set is better then stats people want it nerfed, it’s silly.

About sorcs. If they do get adjusted I’d say ‘slightly’ reduce pet damage and ‘slightly’ reduce their burst.

All these pet targeting, shields, streak, whatever issues wouldn’t be an issue at all if a sorc couldn’t turn around and burst someone quickly while using the other mechanics.

Agree with everything except pet targeting. Pet targeting still screws me, even if I'm not trying to kill the sorc. If I'm trying to kill some other guy and a sorc comes along with a pet, game targets the pet, even though I'm not even aiming for it or the sorc. The counter to it, tab targeting, doesn't work, so there's nothing you can do to fix it.

Pet targeting needs to be put on an option. Sick of wasting resources because of some pet ***.

mursie

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If ZOS wants to balance around Battlegrounds, they need to strip CP out of every aspect of the game.

Finally, 10/10 comment by Emma. Well done. Kudos - yes, yes indeed. get that inflated crutch out of PVP entirely. PVE can keep it but it has no place in pvp.

This lazy power creep carrot does nothing other than inflate baby seal clubbing egos and create a massive time-gate to new players who want to enter an openworld campaign in non-primetime that isn't completely dead.

grannas211

mursie wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If ZOS wants to balance around Battlegrounds, they need to strip CP out of every aspect of the game.

Finally, 10/10 comment by Emma. Well done. Kudos - yes, yes indeed. get that inflated crutch out of PVP entirely. PVE can keep it but it has no place in pvp.

This lazy power creep carrot does nothing other than inflate baby seal clubbing egos and create a massive time-gate to new players who want to enter an openworld campaign in non-primetime that isn't completely dead.

Just one thing I'd like to point out about CP. Ive noticed you always talk about CP is max CP players picking on low levels. Maybe that is a PC thing, but on PS4 like 95% of the time youre going to run into 810s. We've been at 810 for what a year now? Its certainly not 810s running around fighting 200s. Maybe its just the console transfers to PC? Im not evening arguing in favor of CP or saying its balanced whatever, just saying I dont see that at all.

mursie

grannas211 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If ZOS wants to balance around Battlegrounds, they need to strip CP out of every aspect of the game.

Finally, 10/10 comment by Emma. Well done. Kudos - yes, yes indeed. get that inflated crutch out of PVP entirely. PVE can keep it but it has no place in pvp.

This lazy power creep carrot does nothing other than inflate baby seal clubbing egos and create a massive time-gate to new players who want to enter an openworld campaign in non-primetime that isn't completely dead.

Just one thing I'd like to point out about CP. Ive noticed you always talk about CP is max CP players picking on low levels. Maybe that is a PC thing, but on PS4 like 95% of the time youre going to run into 810s. We've been at 810 for what a year now? Its certainly not 810s running around fighting 200s. Maybe its just the console transfers to PC? Im not evening arguing in favor of CP or saying its balanced whatever, just saying I dont see that at all.

the points you can't debate:
1. unfortunately there is really only one active open world pvp campaign. It is CP enabled.
2. Because it is CP enabled, all new players must either refrain from open world pvp or suffer a significantly long grind of being pummeled by inflated crutches until they to are 810.

Given 1 and 2 above, there is no rational argument that can be made that this system is healthy for the future growth of the game. It simply detracts from pvp growth and fragments the already dwindling pvp population more. It isn't healthy.

Regarding the specifics of your point on 810's vs lowbies. I'll give more credence to that comment when i actually stop seeing 1vX montages posted in these forums on the daily that give video proof of the very claim i'm making.

Derra

Qbiken wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Bloodspawn at best will have about 30-40% uptime (higest I've seen was about 55% after a bg where my healer was heavy focused by the other teams). Bloodspawn is not nerf worthy by any means.

A bg does have downtime. Wear it in a duel against a dot class and you will see above 70% uptime easily. If you put it on a DK it´s also gonna net them ~600 of all stats via battle roar with every procc.

Bloodspawn isn´t op per se - but on the right build and class it´s definetly in the top 3 of overperforming monstersets.

grannas211

mursie wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If ZOS wants to balance around Battlegrounds, they need to strip CP out of every aspect of the game.

Finally, 10/10 comment by Emma. Well done. Kudos - yes, yes indeed. get that inflated crutch out of PVP entirely. PVE can keep it but it has no place in pvp.

This lazy power creep carrot does nothing other than inflate baby seal clubbing egos and create a massive time-gate to new players who want to enter an openworld campaign in non-primetime that isn't completely dead.

Just one thing I'd like to point out about CP. Ive noticed you always talk about CP is max CP players picking on low levels. Maybe that is a PC thing, but on PS4 like 95% of the time youre going to run into 810s. We've been at 810 for what a year now? Its certainly not 810s running around fighting 200s. Maybe its just the console transfers to PC? Im not evening arguing in favor of CP or saying its balanced whatever, just saying I dont see that at all.

the points you can't debate:
1. unfortunately there is really only one active open world pvp campaign. It is CP enabled.
2. Because it is CP enabled, all new players must either refrain from open world pvp or suffer a significantly long grind of being pummeled by inflated crutches until they to are 810.

Given 1 and 2 above, there is no rational argument that can be made that this system is healthy for the future growth of the game. It simply detracts from pvp growth and fragments the already dwindling pvp population more. It isn't healthy.

Regarding the specifics of your point on 810's vs lowbies. I'll give more credence to that comment when i actually stop seeing 1vX montages posted in these forums on the daily that give video proof of the very claim i'm making.

I agree. It is a huge issue, which is even more exacerbated with Faction Lock.

Derra

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

You can counter streak on any class that has access to a gapcloser.

Unfortunately magica necro and warden are lacking those and you´re right these two classes can´t counter a streaking sorc. That´s an oversight on those classes design though imo. 10/12 classes can counter streak if they play it properly.

leepalmer95

Derra wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

You can counter streak on any class that has access to a gapcloser.

Unfortunately magica necro and warden are lacking those and you´re right these two classes can´t counter a streaking sorc. That´s an oversight on those classes design though imo. 10/12 classes can counter streak if they play it properly.

You can semi counter it, if they streak through you they would of already streaked again by the time you actually break free and turn the camera around and by that point are out of gap closer range.

Derra

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

You can counter streak on any class that has access to a gapcloser.

Unfortunately magica necro and warden are lacking those and you´re right these two classes can´t counter a streaking sorc. That´s an oversight on those classes design though imo. 10/12 classes can counter streak if they play it properly.

You can semi counter it, if they streak through you they would of already streaked again by the time you actually break free and turn the camera around and by that point are out of gap closer range.

Ofc - but that´s the point of streak to some extend. Depending on the range the sorc started streaking the first time they could also still be in gapclose range.
People can also anticipate the move and block the stun.

I´m not saying it works 100% of the time - but on classes that do have a gapcloser in use killing a streaking sorc is possible.

Imo it´s harder to kill a nb with cloak and shade than a sorc with streak 1v1 if the only thing they want to achieve is get away.

oxygen_thief

WoppaBoem wrote: »

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

build for speed and run for a sorc like some people do

Insco851

Sure cp needs reworked but the idea that it should just go away and players who have played for years are now on par with someone who picked up the game a few weeks back is pretty silly. (Sans gear)

mursie

Insco851 wrote: »

Sure cp needs reworked but the idea that it should just go away and players who have played for years are now on par with someone who picked up the game a few weeks back is pretty silly. (Sans gear)

i find it silly that you think you need stat-based competitive advantages over others simply because you've played the game longer. Let your experience and skill crafted over many sessions of play be the crutch you lean on to beat your opponent. Have some self respect.

Insco851

mursie wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Sure cp needs reworked but the idea that it should just go away and players who have played for years are now on par with someone who picked up the game a few weeks back is pretty silly. (Sans gear)

i find it silly that you think you need stat-based competitive advantages over others simply because you've played the game longer. Let your experience and skill crafted over many sessions of play be the crutch you lean on to beat your opponent. Have some self respect.

I’m not talking about picking on low levels here. No one finds that comforting. Lol. But my point stands. Removing any high level grind is watering down and making the game even more casual friendly.

They already give cp away as it is.

To add, it’s nice having a different setting that plays more or less tanky. Cp and no cp are different games in their own right.

Sure it’s hard to balance across all three arenas, pve, cp and no cp pvp.. and that’s fine cuz Zos doesn’t want it to be perfectly balanced anyways.

stritzi

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

You can counter streak on any class that has access to a gapcloser.

Unfortunately magica necro and warden are lacking those and you´re right these two classes can´t counter a streaking sorc. That´s an oversight on those classes design though imo. 10/12 classes can counter streak if they play it properly.

You can semi counter it, if they streak through you they would of already streaked again by the time you actually break free and turn the camera around and by that point are out of gap closer range.

Imo it´s harder to kill a nb with cloak and shade than a sorc with streak 1v1 if the only thing they want to achieve is get away.

invis pot and its countered, wtb anti streak pot. Streaking sorcs are far harder to counter than cloak, imo.

jcm2606

Insco851 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Sure cp needs reworked but the idea that it should just go away and players who have played for years are now on par with someone who picked up the game a few weeks back is pretty silly. (Sans gear)

i find it silly that you think you need stat-based competitive advantages over others simply because you've played the game longer. Let your experience and skill crafted over many sessions of play be the crutch you lean on to beat your opponent. Have some self respect.

I’m not talking about picking on low levels here. No one finds that comforting. Lol. But my point stands. Removing any high level grind is watering down and making the game even more casual friendly.

They already give cp away as it is.

To add, it’s nice having a different setting that plays more or less tanky. Cp and no cp are different games in their own right.

Sure it’s hard to balance across all three arenas, pve, cp and no cp pvp.. and that’s fine cuz Zos doesn’t want it to be perfectly balanced anyways.

The problem is, that balance is being, well, balanced on a razor's edge. Take the current tank meta, people are complaining about how it's too easy to stack health, and so they want the 5k max health from Battle Spirit to be reduced. Yep, health stacking is an issue, in CP.

In non-CP, outside of a few outliers (petsorc immediately comes to mind, Warden and Necro I think are also outliers), you need to make compromises to really stack health, so much so that most builds sit right around 20-21k, maybe pushing 22-23k for builds that are a little more tankier. My magDK sits around 21-21.5k health with the Undaunted passives, and a few hundred over 20k without them.

Reducing the 5k max health given via Battle Spirit would pull my magDK under 20k health, which is heading into dangerous territory, territory that would require me to spec into mitigation just to survive to a baseline degree, and so the problem comes full circle. Tank meta via baseline health stacking fixed in CP, but non-CP is pushed right back into the tank meta via other methods (deliberate health stacking, stacking resists further, stacking flat mitigation further, stacking heals further, etc).

Sure, Zenimax could adjust Battle Spirit only in the CP campaign, but what about other mechanics that are unique to a certain style or mode of play? What about CP making bash and block builds so much cheaper and so much more viable? What about other mechanics that aren't inherently flawed within the CP system, but interact with the CP system in a flawed way (Befouled and Defile stacking, etc)?

At some point, things have to be normalized across the board, because slightly adjusting the balance in one area of the game can have adverse unintended consequences in other areas. At some point, PVP is going to have to be normalized, and until then, true balance really can't be acquired.

Iskiab

grannas211 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If ZOS wants to balance around Battlegrounds, they need to strip CP out of every aspect of the game.

Finally, 10/10 comment by Emma. Well done. Kudos - yes, yes indeed. get that inflated crutch out of PVP entirely. PVE can keep it but it has no place in pvp.

This lazy power creep carrot does nothing other than inflate baby seal clubbing egos and create a massive time-gate to new players who want to enter an openworld campaign in non-primetime that isn't completely dead.

Just one thing I'd like to point out about CP. Ive noticed you always talk about CP is max CP players picking on low levels. Maybe that is a PC thing, but on PS4 like 95% of the time youre going to run into 810s. We've been at 810 for what a year now? Its certainly not 810s running around fighting 200s. Maybe its just the console transfers to PC? Im not evening arguing in favor of CP or saying its balanced whatever, just saying I dont see that at all.

Wow, in a way this is even worse.

Whenever a low CP player asks about pvp I tell them to do no-CP because it’s better.

The usual answer is no-CP is dead on console. That must mean a lot of players are being discouraged from the game. On PC-NA no-CP is alive and well with factions at max pop even on weekdays. Max-CPs are maybe half of players? It’s hard to tell.

Waffennacht

Iskiab wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If ZOS wants to balance around Battlegrounds, they need to strip CP out of every aspect of the game.

Finally, 10/10 comment by Emma. Well done. Kudos - yes, yes indeed. get that inflated crutch out of PVP entirely. PVE can keep it but it has no place in pvp.

This lazy power creep carrot does nothing other than inflate baby seal clubbing egos and create a massive time-gate to new players who want to enter an openworld campaign in non-primetime that isn't completely dead.

Just one thing I'd like to point out about CP. Ive noticed you always talk about CP is max CP players picking on low levels. Maybe that is a PC thing, but on PS4 like 95% of the time youre going to run into 810s. We've been at 810 for what a year now? Its certainly not 810s running around fighting 200s. Maybe its just the console transfers to PC? Im not evening arguing in favor of CP or saying its balanced whatever, just saying I dont see that at all.

Wow, in a way this is even worse.

Whenever a low CP player asks about pvp I tell them to do no-CP because it’s better.

The usual answer is no-CP is dead on console. That must mean a lot of players are being discouraged from the game. On PC-NA no-CP is alive and well with factions at max pop even on weekdays. Max-CPs are maybe half of players? It’s hard to tell.

Unfortunately I've seen like one bar on one alliance at most in No CP Cyrodiil.

When I go there to quest, I only ever run into small groups of 4/5. Usually when I do the only "hey over here!" killing of the guards.

But that's honestly not much of a different experience from Cyrodiil in general for me. 20+ min of riding and waiting for 5 min of rather mindless action back into 20+ min of waiting.

That's why I BG, I want that instant and constant rush of battle

Aedaryl

Minno wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Actually agree on much you say here. Though not neccessarily on the reasons why things overperform.

But since you can approach other topics more rationally minded - why don´t you give us an idea WHAT you would want to change about magsorc?

I think the pet is fine, I think the heal is fine. It means Sorc as an identity is a master of conjuration. But if there pet stays, it needs some balance around it:
- no shield scaling off mag at less than 3k cost. They have a burst heal, crit surge and mobilty/range; the shield is too much benefit.
- pets shouldn't deal DMG. They instead should give passive benefit one can cc/interrupt like engine guardian (maybe extra speed, extra crits etc.)
- only one pet at a time. I think that should be a global rule because nightblades can roll shade+maw/shadowrend and warden bear. I think necro should be immune because their pets aren't permanent.
- any other fixes that relate to how sorcs feel the class plays. Like the frag stun is on cast time but there crystal frags is proc chance for instant. Both sound be instant one high DMG no stun, one Burma DMG but stuns. Stuff like that.

Wow this is stupid.

You want to completly kill the class.

Pets need to do damage, it's the class dot necessary to make it competitive.

Pets taking 2 slots is enough reason to not run both matriarch and volatile familiar. Playing with both pets isn't optimal at all, the best choice is to run healing matriarch alone. No need to kill unused builds.

You should play sorc and realise that the problem with shields and sorc is harness magicka. It give more magicka than in cost in openworld and stack with hardened.

Nerf harness OP magicka return and make harness not stack with hardened will nerf sorcs far enough.

Try playing without harness on a sorc and you will see how much BAD (the worst) sustain sorc have.

Insco851

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Sure cp needs reworked but the idea that it should just go away and players who have played for years are now on par with someone who picked up the game a few weeks back is pretty silly. (Sans gear)

i find it silly that you think you need stat-based competitive advantages over others simply because you've played the game longer. Let your experience and skill crafted over many sessions of play be the crutch you lean on to beat your opponent. Have some self respect.

I’m not talking about picking on low levels here. No one finds that comforting. Lol. But my point stands. Removing any high level grind is watering down and making the game even more casual friendly.

They already give cp away as it is.

To add, it’s nice having a different setting that plays more or less tanky. Cp and no cp are different games in their own right.

Sure it’s hard to balance across all three arenas, pve, cp and no cp pvp.. and that’s fine cuz Zos doesn’t want it to be perfectly balanced anyways.

The problem is, that balance is being, well, balanced on a razor's edge. Take the current tank meta, people are complaining about how it's too easy to stack health, and so they want the 5k max health from Battle Spirit to be reduced. Yep, health stacking is an issue, in CP.

In non-CP, outside of a few outliers (petsorc immediately comes to mind, Warden and Necro I think are also outliers), you need to make compromises to really stack health, so much so that most builds sit right around 20-21k, maybe pushing 22-23k for builds that are a little more tankier. My magDK sits around 21-21.5k health with the Undaunted passives, and a few hundred over 20k without them.

Reducing the 5k max health given via Battle Spirit would pull my magDK under 20k health, which is heading into dangerous territory, territory that would require me to spec into mitigation just to survive to a baseline degree, and so the problem comes full circle. Tank meta via baseline health stacking fixed in CP, but non-CP is pushed right back into the tank meta via other methods (deliberate health stacking, stacking resists further, stacking flat mitigation further, stacking heals further, etc).

Sure, Zenimax could adjust Battle Spirit only in the CP campaign, but what about other mechanics that are unique to a certain style or mode of play? What about CP making bash and block builds so much cheaper and so much more viable? What about other mechanics that aren't inherently flawed within the CP system, but interact with the CP system in a flawed way (Befouled and Defile stacking, etc)?

At some point, things have to be normalized across the board, because slightly adjusting the balance in one area of the game can have adverse unintended consequences in other areas. At some point, PVP is going to have to be normalized, and until then, true balance really can't be acquired.

It’s a built in excuse for the devs to continually change the game. They are not looking for perfect balance. The “oversights” are done with intent (bash necro for example). A revolving meta keeps players interested, doing content. Buying the next chapter....

Insco851

Aedaryl wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

CP provides you with everything. You can be tanky, have good sustain, and dmg. In the case of stamina builds it's even more pronounced due to sets like seventh, fury, ravager, veiled, truth. Heavy armor sets that give you significantly more weapon dmg than medium armor sets do.

Bloodspawn is obviously part of the problem. It gives recovery, an obscene amount of mitigation, and ultimate that you can turn into either offense or defense. In my opinion they should turn the 1 piece into a neutral stat like health, and cut the effects by half. 14 ult is too much, and 6450 resistance is almost 10% dmg mitigation. It would still be a decent set then.

Needless to say Pirate Skeleton also needs a nerf. 8 second uptime on a 15 sec cooldown instead of 12/15.

Btw, nice try trying to derail the sorc nerf thread. It almost took my mind entirely off the main issue here.

#nerfmagsorc

Actually agree on much you say here. Though not neccessarily on the reasons why things overperform.

But since you can approach other topics more rationally minded - why don´t you give us an idea WHAT you would want to change about magsorc?

I think the pet is fine, I think the heal is fine. It means Sorc as an identity is a master of conjuration. But if there pet stays, it needs some balance around it:
- no shield scaling off mag at less than 3k cost. They have a burst heal, crit surge and mobilty/range; the shield is too much benefit.
- pets shouldn't deal DMG. They instead should give passive benefit one can cc/interrupt like engine guardian (maybe extra speed, extra crits etc.)
- only one pet at a time. I think that should be a global rule because nightblades can roll shade+maw/shadowrend and warden bear. I think necro should be immune because their pets aren't permanent.
- any other fixes that relate to how sorcs feel the class plays. Like the frag stun is on cast time but there crystal frags is proc chance for instant. Both sound be instant one high DMG no stun, one Burma DMG but stuns. Stuff like that.

Wow this is stupid.

You want to completly kill the class.

Pets need to do damage, it's the class dot necessary to make it competitive.

Pets taking 2 slots is enough reason to not run both matriarch and volatile familiar. Playing with both pets isn't optimal at all, the best choice is to run healing matriarch alone. No need to kill unused builds.

You should play sorc and realise that the problem with shields and sorc is harness magicka. It give more magicka than in cost in openworld and stack with hardened.

Nerf harness OP magicka return and make harness not stack with hardened will nerf sorcs far enough.

Try playing without harness on a sorc and you will see how much BAD (the worst) sustain sorc have.

Necro might be fighting for the top spot of “worst sustain”

Derra

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

You can counter streak on any class that has access to a gapcloser.

Unfortunately magica necro and warden are lacking those and you´re right these two classes can´t counter a streaking sorc. That´s an oversight on those classes design though imo. 10/12 classes can counter streak if they play it properly.

You can semi counter it, if they streak through you they would of already streaked again by the time you actually break free and turn the camera around and by that point are out of gap closer range.

Imo it´s harder to kill a nb with cloak and shade than a sorc with streak 1v1 if the only thing they want to achieve is get away.

invis pot and its countered, wtb anti streak pot. Streaking sorcs are far harder to counter than cloak, imo.

How do you get the nb in range when they port back to a maxrange shade? Genuinely curious. Detect pot works when they don´t slot shade from my experience but someone who understands to use shade it´s virtually impossible to get them.
Atleast i haven´t met a player that could catch me on my NB - and i´m not very competent with using shade.

oxygen_thief

Aedaryl wrote: »

Try playing without harness on a sorc and you will see how much BAD (the worst) sustain sorc have.

how does it help you to fight against stamina? if you can defeat stamina player without harness why do you need it in a fight against magicka? i dont have any problems with sustain without harness. dark conversion helps a lot.

ccmedaddy

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

My 2 cents are, how to counter streak?

Everytime I fight a MagSorc and I get trough his shields damage its health, first thing is streak 3 times. Whats up with that skill. I has no counter for myself as a magwarden. There are gap closer abilities but even those if you aim fast enough and it fires the sorcs already streaked from that position.

I find the game mechanic in making streak more expensive says so much. Because there is no actual player counter that the game itself is the counter needed for this skill.

I would love to see a change to streak which allow players to counter it rather than a nerf or change in game mechanics of the skill itself.

You can counter streak on any class that has access to a gapcloser.

Unfortunately magica necro and warden are lacking those and you´re right these two classes can´t counter a streaking sorc. That´s an oversight on those classes design though imo. 10/12 classes can counter streak if they play it properly.

You can semi counter it, if they streak through you they would of already streaked again by the time you actually break free and turn the camera around and by that point are out of gap closer range.

Imo it´s harder to kill a nb with cloak and shade than a sorc with streak 1v1 if the only thing they want to achieve is get away.

invis pot and its countered, wtb anti streak pot. Streaking sorcs are far harder to counter than cloak, imo.

Slot a gap closer... that's literally all it takes.