Buff Siege Please

InvictusApollo

Some time ago I went to Cyrodill with my bag character. I just needed those crystals and nothing more. My char was barely level 10 so I decided to roleplay a... wait for it... civilian. The only skill I had was Rapid Manouver. I joined a zergling group. Since I roleplayed a civilian I have removed all of my weapons... and armor. I've been running around naked. All of my pvp builds are extremely tanky so I honestly wanted to test how long I would survive.

The result? I died once... to purge "in combat bug". I literally chased a ballgroup and had them kill me. I had to chase a lot since they were running away. They must have been very bad to run away so long from an unorganized group of random players also known as a "zerg", "zerg group", or "zergball".

But thats not the point I wanted to make. The point is that I took my butt naked character to a castle. And guess what? There were multiple oils and sieges. I could literally take a shower from those oils. I haven't died once to balistas - even those that hit me.

And before you say that "pre 50 characters have upscaling" - I had much, much, much lower resistances than even the meta builds (which I personally consider to be barely one level above glass cannons).

Do you want a cherry on top of that? Do you? Here it is:

Spoiler

It was noCP campaign.

Siege engines are a joke in this game. Their damage is pathetic.

Siege engines should be buffed to at least 50% of damage they were doing during "siege bug" week, also known as "the best week of ESOs pvp ever". Or even more. During that time Coldfire Ballista was one shotting everyone while the standard fire ballista was just bringing people to low hp. If cold fire ballista was as powerfull as standard fire ballista during "siege bug week", then it would be powerfull enough.
However in order to prevent their abuse their deployment should be longer. Maybe also add some debuff to siege operator while he is setting the siege engine. Off Balance or Minor Vulnerability would be ok so that no one was able to set up a siege engine without some heavy support from team mates.

Siege engines should be a hard hitting, almost one shotting artillery weapons that draw battle lines and make people spread.

Strong siege engines will solve many performance issues and even problems with zergballs and ballgroups. They will give us epic battles like the ones during "siege bug week".

People will adapt. They will learn how to position themselves and play smart or at least how to roll dodge. Some will whine at the beginning. Some people allways whine untill they adapt. Buffing siege engines - and buffing them a lot - will be the best thning that happened for PvP ever.

What do you think?
Do you want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops?
Or do you want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play, a challenge?

troomar

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

Biased poll. Just saying.

InvictusApollo

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

troomar wrote: »

Biased poll. Just saying.

But is it really? We know what we have right now. And we know what awesome gameplay we had during "siege bug week".

dazee

Super biased poll, will not vote. Siege is powerful AF in non CP pvp, if its buffed it needs to be buffed ONLY in CP campaigns.

zyk

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

The only time I really enjoyed PVP this update was when siege was broken. I played a lot that week and have barely played since. I don't recall using siege during this period, but I it shook up parts of the game that have become incredibly stale.

I don't think strong siege is the ultimate answer though. Over time the parties responsible for the things broken siege helped to fix will adapt. The only long term solution is for the AvA team to be increased so proper iterative gameplay design can occur.

The most pressing issue now is Cyrodiil lacks players who enjoy PVP. It *seems* the majority are happy to capture barely defended objectives. We've seen on buff campaigns and more recently on PC/NA/Vivec that most players seem happy to stack on one team and roll the map.

frostz417

Only buff that siege should have is it needs to be like proxy detonation. Other wise scrap any other ideas because the last thing we need is zerglings putting up siege to fight 1 person.

pzschrek

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

Why do people like you hate pvp so damn much?

I remember no siege week. It was the opposite. You had to either ninja pvdoor or else have an entire faction stack open every hole. It was either boring or stupid or you crashed out, depending on the situation, but never fun. And always more zergs than ever.

Go do trials or some *** if you like pve so much.

The only groups this helps are the ballzergs that can build to mitigate it. It’s a disaster for everyone else.

Also I could see trash zerglings liking strong siege to cover the fact that they’re bad at the game. We’ve all seen those worthless shitters in no cp that drop siege in field battles to fight one guy or help Zerg a small group. So yeah if you’re a really bad player I could see you wanting siege to hit harder.

dazee

PVPer calling other players "Worthless shitters" for being not as skilled as he is -yet. this is why people dislike PVP players, bad reps like this.

Elong

dazee wrote: »

PVPer calling other players "Worthless shitters" for being not as skilled as he is -yet. this is why people dislike PVP players, bad reps like this.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6011468/#Comment_6011468

^^ PVE player giving PVErs an equally bad rep. Ever thought it's the person not the playstyle?

DisgracefulMind

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

Would really prefer if siege did anything to ballgroups. Currently it does not, they just stack, spam purge and heal all the way through it. Hopefully the siege changes will help, doubt it, but we can hope.

InvictusApollo

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

pzschrek wrote: »

Why do people like you hate pvp so damn much?

I remember no siege week. It was the opposite. You had to either ninja pvdoor or else have an entire faction stack open every hole. It was either boring or stupid or you crashed out, depending on the situation, but never fun. And always more zergs than ever.

Go do trials or some *** if you like pve so much.

The only groups this helps are the ballzergs that can build to mitigate it. It’s a disaster for everyone else.

Also I could see trash zerglings liking strong siege to cover the fact that they’re bad at the game. We’ve all seen those worthless shitters in no cp that drop siege in field battles to fight one guy or help Zerg a small group. So yeah if you’re a really bad player I could see you wanting siege to hit harder.

Ballzergs? You mean ballgroups? Or do you mean zergballs?
Ballgroups are highly optimized and organized groups. While zergballs are groups of randoms among whom are many inexperienced players.
If you mean ballgroups, then I've seen none during the "siege bug week". It was awesome.
If you mean zergballs, then... you can't mean zergballs. Those are just randoms.

During the "siege bug week" I have actually been racking up kills with my magsorc (similar to your build). No PvDooring. No sieges for me. Just plain old player versus player with battle lines drawn. There was more challenge and definitely more fun.
We had actual battles and not just the PvDoor that we have right now. The main tactic right now is to block respawn at an empty keep and destroy it's gate before enemies react and come.

As for people deploying siege engines during field battles I have suggested to implement debuffs and increase siege deployment time to prevent that. If you can't kill or at least CC someone who stands still for 5 seconds while deploying a shield, then there is something wrong with your build.

And why do you tell me to do trials? I'm a PvPer. I have even recently made a thread about PvErs hating on PvPers. Think before you post.

dazee wrote: »

Super biased poll, will not vote. Siege is powerful AF in non CP pvp, if its buffed it needs to be buffed ONLY in CP campaigns.

I've seen your build. The warden with high ult gen. It's your first build that works - your words. This makes me think that you are not very experienced in PvP and that is why you find siege engines to be "powerfull". No they are not. They are actually pathetic in noCP. I managed to evade it every single time while playing a naked character. NAKED!

Sure at point blank they can hit you, but at a distance you can evade it even if someone CCs and snares you. Longer set up time would prevent point blank hits in field battles. As for crossing a thresholds - nothing changes - you still need to use an ultimate and time your movement.

Ender1310

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

I loved watching ball groups get frustrated that their usual tower hump didn’t work. Buff seige. Ball group play style is a visual eyesore and not stimulating. Massive rocks are being thrown they should hit hard. If you wanna pew pew so bad BG

Mr_Walker

InvictusApollo wrote: »

The point is that I took my butt naked character to a castle. And guess what? There were multiple oils and sieges. I could literally take a shower from those oils. I haven't died once to balistas - even those that hit me.

Somewhere out there a healer is saying to his pals "man you'll never guess the amount of healing I had to do to this hapless drip in Cyro the other day...."

RedGirl41

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

What a joke. Siege already hits Insanly hard. I have hundreds of screens shots from so many people. 30k+ oil, 15k meatbags (which is biological warfare so why is it doing so much damage?) you are tapping one button.. why should you be able to kill 5,10,15 people? You do nothing but sit in the back and endlessly fire siege.

Not everyone plays a tank in cyrodiil but buffing siege will make it happen. Everyone will be running heartland. If you want a sense of danger then push out of the keep and attack people. Learn to fight solo, small groups or even a zerg idc. Siege has already been buffed with scattershots doing 20% more damage.

More skillful play with siege would be removing meatbag a damage but keeping the heal debuff. Someone in ur group hits the enemy with a meatbag heal debuff then ur group pushes out to attack them. It’s called player vs player

ATomiX96

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

we've seen how good the last "siege buff" worked.

*20k unmitigatable dmg per second that goes through shields*
*people that dont leave the keep only sit on keep walls spamming siege instead of fighting first person*

smart play and challenge btw.

mague

InvictusApollo wrote: »

But thats not the point I wanted to make. The point is that I took my butt naked character to a castle. And guess what? There were multiple oils and sieges. I could literally take a shower from those oils. I haven't died once to balistas - even those that hit me.

Not true. Oil is really bad. If there are multiple players pouring it is hell. It doesnt help to move and avoid, because then you cant go to the door. I guess you just have been very well protected by heals and shields.

Balista and Catapults are different. I usually use meatballs or oil catapult for defence. For opening walls and gates all weapons are good.

InvitationNotFound

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

lol at OP.

the best week of ESOs pvp ever

Exactly, yes. Fighting on plain ground and the enemy is putting up 5-8 siege weapons everywhere on the open field because they are able to kill something with it (still they failed often). If you call this "the best week of ESOs pvp ever", I have bad news for you.

Prince_of_all_Pugs

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

Siege needs to be buffed for 3 reasons
1) it gives pugs a chance to actually kill zergs
2) pugs can defend keeps
3) mass coordinated cold fire destroys toxic ball groups and sadistic no life 1vXers.
FYI coldfire siege SHOULD do daedric dmg,it’s from coldharbour,a daedric realm!

bulbousb16_ESO

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

PvP is good when everybody has a chance... because they are squishy. These ridiculous overbuffed players that can take on crowds of opponents unscathed are the problem.

Blinkin8r

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

frostz417 wrote: »

Only buff that siege should have is it needs to be like proxy detonation. Other wise scrap any other ideas because the last thing we need is zerglings putting up siege to fight 1 person.

This is actually a really good idea. If you're hitting 10 people with an oil pot it should get a multiplier.

NordSwordnBoard

Maybe a bit of compromise? Have the trebs get a big boost to make them almost 1 shot cannons with current slow recharge - but keep ballistae the same. Medium buff to catapults.

The larger placement restrictions/space and slow recharge times would make the trade-off more worthwhile. I don't know if devs intended to have one person fire a diamond pattern of ballistae and have it be better dps than the larger pieces almost every time you siege.

InvitationNotFound

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

InvictusApollo wrote: »

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troomar wrote: »

Biased poll. Just saying.

But is it really? We know what we have right now. And we know what awesome gameplay we had during "siege bug week".

lol I guess I've missed that comment.

Sorry mate, it is "awesome" because you say so or what? I saw every idiot on the campaign putting up a siege weapon at every location possible to even shoot at single players. That's awesome game play? It is absolutely *** and unbalanced.

You complain about zergs, ballgroups, PvDoor, yet you propose a Siege vs Player now. Worst and most skill-less gameplay possible. "Awesome" gameplay dude, really.

Seriously, I'm not sure if you're trolling or if this is real. I mean you want sieges to be stronger for epic battles, smart play and a challenge. Really, with every idiot on the campaign sitting on a siege weapon?

Joy_Division

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Siege damage in CP-Enabled Campaigns will now hit approximately 30% harder than prior update adjustments. Damage in No-CP Campaigns remains the same.

You will never be satisfied will you?

Mr_Walker

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Maybe a bit of compromise? Have the trebs get a big boost to make them almost 1 shot cannons with current slow recharge - but keep ballistae the same. Medium buff to catapults.

The larger placement restrictions/space and slow recharge times would make the trade-off more worthwhile. I don't know if devs intended to have one person fire a diamond pattern of ballistae and have it be better dps than the larger pieces almost every time you siege.

I can get behind this idea.

pzschrek

I want zergballs, ballgroups, PvDoor, massive lag and fps drops. (Leave siege engines damage pathetically low as it is now.)

Joy_Division wrote: »

You will never be satisfied will you?

Not until they have an "I win" button!

InvictusApollo

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

Joy_Division wrote: »

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ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Siege damage in CP-Enabled Campaigns will now hit approximately 30% harder than prior update adjustments. Damage in No-CP Campaigns remains the same.

You will never be satisfied will you?

It's just CP campaigns. Siege engines in noCP will be as useless as allways.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

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InvictusApollo wrote: »

troomar wrote: »

Biased poll. Just saying.

But is it really? We know what we have right now. And we know what awesome gameplay we had during "siege bug week".

lol I guess I've missed that comment.

Sorry mate, it is "awesome" because you say so or what? I saw every idiot on the campaign putting up a siege weapon at every location possible to even shoot at single players. That's awesome game play? It is absolutely *** and unbalanced.

You complain about zergs, ballgroups, PvDoor, yet you propose a Siege vs Player now. Worst and most skill-less gameplay possible. "Awesome" gameplay dude, really.

Seriously, I'm not sure if you're trolling or if this is real. I mean you want sieges to be stronger for epic battles, smart play and a challenge. Really, with every idiot on the campaign sitting on a siege weapon?

Wait - have you died to that siege engines all the time when there was a bug? Really? Place a siege engine fighting me in open field and the first thing you are going to get is a Fiery Reach to your face knocking you away. Try CC immunity pot and I will just roll dodge and then burst you down before you reload your boom stick on wheels. And even if you manage to get a shot I will purge and heal/ward myself up.
Go on - use a siege engine against me - I dare you - I double dare you.

And now to put more salt into your wound: read my post carefully. Do it and you will see that I have suggested a nerf that would increase time needed to place a siege engine or even giving siege operator a debuff. All of that just to prevent placing sieges in duels/1vX and firing them at point blank.



The purpose of siege engines is to destroy fortifications, draw battle lines and prevent stacking. Thats what they have been doing historically. Any commander with more than two brain cells would call "spread formation" order when facing siege engines. Right now siege engines only destroy fortifications and are totally useless for anything else - even for defense.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

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InvictusApollo wrote: »

The point is that I took my butt naked character to a castle. And guess what? There were multiple oils and sieges. I could literally take a shower from those oils. I haven't died once to balistas - even those that hit me.

Somewhere out there a healer is saying to his pals "man you'll never guess the amount of healing I had to do to this hapless drip in Cyro the other day...."

There was one healer spamming Healing Springs and one guy sometime used Vigor. That is all. I have mitigated all siege damage just by looking where siege engines were pointed at and tracking reload times. I had Major Expedition buff and roll dodged or sprinted away from battering ram every time I knew that the next Oil was realoaded and ready to pour on battering ram. It was easier than counting. I just knew when the next hit would come and moved away from it. What is so hard about it? Counting seconds? Or looking at enemies?

Mr_Walker

InvictusApollo wrote: »

There was one healer spamming Healing Springs and one guy sometime used Vigor. That is all. I have mitigated all siege damage just by looking where siege engines were pointed at and tracking reload times. I had Major Expedition buff and roll dodged or sprinted away from battering ram every time I knew that the next Oil was realoaded and ready to pour on battering ram. It was easier than counting. I just knew when the next hit would come and moved away from it. What is so hard about it? Counting seconds? Or looking at enemies?

Well gee now I'm all confused, the OP stated you could literally bathe in oil and getting hit by ballistas etc whilst naked with no damage, now you're telling us you were running away from the ballistas/oil so as to not get hit.

I am amused by the amount of figjam in this thread though... it's part of the reason why I love gamaing forums in general.

InvictusApollo

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

Mr_Walker wrote: »

show previous quotes

InvictusApollo wrote: »

There was one healer spamming Healing Springs and one guy sometime used Vigor. That is all. I have mitigated all siege damage just by looking where siege engines were pointed at and tracking reload times. I had Major Expedition buff and roll dodged or sprinted away from battering ram every time I knew that the next Oil was realoaded and ready to pour on battering ram. It was easier than counting. I just knew when the next hit would come and moved away from it. What is so hard about it? Counting seconds? Or looking at enemies?

Well gee now I'm all confused, the OP stated you could literally bathe in oil and getting hit by ballistas etc whilst naked with no damage, now you're telling us you were running away from the ballistas/oil so as to not get hit.

I am amused by the amount of figjam in this thread though... it's part of the reason why I love gamaing forums in general.

Because you could bathe in oil if you had more healers on you. Or if you slot proper healing/wards yourself. Besides the fact remains the same: siege engines are vastly underpowered. The only people dying to siege engines are those who assume they are being pocket healed or those who have no reflex whatsoever or those who don't know that a red circle under their feet is bad for health.

By the way - don't you think it's strange: most PvPers consider themselves to be more skilled and superior to PvErs. And yet some of us whine about siege engines being OP. While any half decent PvEr knows how to evade red circles on ground.

WoppaBoem

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

I know you referenced no CP that will not change but the CP campaigns Siege get a buff, see PTS Notes Patch

Siege
Siege damage in CP-Enabled Campaigns will now hit approximately 30% harder than prior update adjustments. Damage in No-CP Campaigns remains the same.

frozywozy

It's insane how many times @InvictusApollo can say zerg / zergball / zergling.
Reminds me of this guy the first year after release who kept saying monkey impulse spammers.

InvictusApollo

I want epic battles, sense of danger, fluid combat, smart play and challenge. (Buff siege engines.)

WoppaBoem wrote: »

I know you referenced no CP that will not change but the CP campaigns Siege get a buff, see PTS Notes Patch

Siege
Siege damage in CP-Enabled Campaigns will now hit approximately 30% harder than prior update adjustments. Damage in No-CP Campaigns remains the same.

Yeah I know that. Considering added protection from CP, siege engines will be more or less as effective as in noCP. It's still not enough to make ballgroups spread out and mitigate their 20k healing per second. And it is still not enough to worry about them too much or even bother yourself by roll dodging if you have good healer, self healing or wards.