Encounter Logging

hedna123b14_ESO

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

In game they cannot hide their log.

huh?

VaranisArano

Kihra wrote: »

Rustyfish101 wrote: »

Question:
Took a look at the website and it looks incredibly thought out and detailed which makes me happy and excited but one thing worries me... Is this going to be worldwide or serverwide, or only the logs you've personally saved? I'd feel uncomfortable posting a log without someone's consent if many people will be able to see it. Just because I wanted to know about something that happened during an encounter.

@Kihra perhaps you could shed some light?

Sure, as mentioned by Bobby, you'll be able to check a checkbox in-game that will cause your name to be omitted when logging. This means if someone did upload it to the Web site, it will just show up as Anonymous and have no connection to any specific character.

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

I'm a little disappointed that it appears to take several steps to opt out and remain anonymous, instead of that being the default option.

This seems like something that players should be able to join up if they want to, not have their information shared unless they say they don't want it shared.

Currently, your info can't be shared unless you link it.

This seems to reverse that, making it so your data can be shared unless you specifically choose to remain anonymous or opt out entirely.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Kihra wrote: »

Regarding anonymity, I have lots of options for what I can do in the report UI of my site.

At the moment, the data shows up, but the name is listed as Anonymous, and everything else is unchanged. It's important for the data to be collected for anonymous players, because the logs essentially break if data is missing. Absorbs tracking, buff tracking, etc. breaks down and doesn't really work if the data for a person who is overwriting someone else's buff is missing, for example.

For example if person A and person B both apply Minor Savagery, but B is anonymous, if B's data didn't get written out at all, the log essentially breaks.

That said, what I can show in the UI for anonymous players is flexible. I could simply exclude them from damage done/healing done tables completely while keeping buffs/debuffs intact. I could lump all anonymous players together into a single damage done bar that isn't drillable, etc. There are lots of options.

Thank you very much. First, by contributing to ESO (even though I may not approve of this new tool, I always value the effort put into the game by the community). And second, thank you for taking our concerns and worries into consideration.
While I do not represent any group of players here, I can quite safely say that the DPS numbers are the culprit of everything - because they're the e-peen meter in this game. For those who don't want to be "judged", this is the figure that needs to be hidden.

If you want to do things right, you have to :
- enable reports as detailed as possible for those who want to be IN
- Hide numbers (especially DPS numbers... buffs/debuffs/uptimes don't matter that much) for those who want to be OUT
- Make identification of those who want to be OUT impossible (either by reading, or by thinking/calculating)
- Make the decision to opt-out not an obvious one...

Not sure how all or any of this is possible - you know better.
Unfortunately, most of the damage is already done : raid leaders will simply require from group members to opt-in, just because the option exists. But if you follow the above 4 intends, you'll reduce damage...

Sorry to put it in such a negative light. Again, I value the work of addon authors. But while extremely valuable to the top 20% of players, it will hurt a huge part of the community. Then again, please reduce the damage as much as you can by enforcing anonymity and opt-out choices.

Thank You.

hedna123b14_ESO

To use the tool you have to:
1. Download it
2. Install it
3. Enable it
I

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kihra wrote: »

Regarding anonymity, I have lots of options for what I can do in the report UI of my site.

At the moment, the data shows up, but the name is listed as Anonymous, and everything else is unchanged. It's important for the data to be collected for anonymous players, because the logs essentially break if data is missing. Absorbs tracking, buff tracking, etc. breaks down and doesn't really work if the data for a person who is overwriting someone else's buff is missing, for example.

For example if person A and person B both apply Minor Savagery, but B is anonymous, if B's data didn't get written out at all, the log essentially breaks.

That said, what I can show in the UI for anonymous players is flexible. I could simply exclude them from damage done/healing done tables completely while keeping buffs/debuffs intact. I could lump all anonymous players together into a single damage done bar that isn't drillable, etc. There are lots of options.

Thank you very much. First, by contributing to ESO (even though I may not approve of this new tool, I always value the effort put into the game by the community). And send, thank you for taking our concerns and worries into consideration.
While I do not represent any group of players here, I can quite safely say that the DPS numbers are the culprit of everything - because they're the e-peen meter in this game. For those who don't want to be "judged", this is the figure that needs to be hidden.

If you want to do things right, you have to :
- enable reports as detailed as possible for those who want to be IN
- Hide numbers (especially DPS numbers... buffs/debuffs/uptimes don't matter that much) for those who want to be OUT
- Make identification of those who want to be OUT impossible (either by reading, or by thinking/calculating)
- Make the decision to opt-out not an obvious one...

Not sure how all or any of this is possible - you know better.
Unfortunately, most of the damage is already done : raid leaders will simply require from group members to opt-in, just because the option exists. But if you follow the above 4 intends, you'll reduce damage...

Sorry to put it in such a negative light. Again, I value the work of addon authors. But while extremely valuable to the top 20% of players, it will hurt a huge part of the community. Then again, please reduce the damage as much as you can by enforcing anonymity and opt-out choices.

Thank You.

I disagree with your assessment.
Currently how things work is two ways:
1. Raid leads of groups trying to improve require their players to download CMX and post screenshots of their dps. If you do not post, you are usually removed from the group.
2. Raid leads of casual groups do NOT require you to show screenshots of your dps.

The situation you are anticipating is already occurring, you just have to play with casual groups and no one will expect much out of you.

Varana

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

So our group wants to use the tool with all the details visible, no one's anonymous. We upload it - is there an option that only members of our group will be able to see and analyse that log? And not Joe from Cincinnati? Or, more importantly, some tool reading logs from the web site and creating player profiles?

There is a huge difference between "I want to use the tool" and "I want to make the logs accessible to all". From your response, it sounds like there is some "private" option - but I'd like to hear from people who actually know this (do you?) instead of wild guessing, and I can't find it in the announcements.

Also, who needs to give permission to upload a log publicly? I hope all group members.

And to clarify, I am not talking about anonymising my name. I am talking about the accessibility of logs themselves.

FatalForce

@anitajoneb17_ESO I really think you don't comprehend the tools that are currently available and well known by the majority of raid leaders. Look at this addon, Hodor Reflexes - DPS & Ultimate Share; it allows you to recreate an entire group damage share by having each person individually broadcast their own damage whilst collecting information from others in the group. It's not a new concept, but the current best option to do so. This won't change anyone from forcing anyone else to report damage; if anything this tool is less oppressive in that regard because it requires someone to go look outside the game where as the damage share addons are available for immediate viewing in the game itself.

What you are advocating is essentially the blocking of any damage information from being transmitted at all; and frankly I think this is willfully ignorant of other peoples goals and desires in the game. It really feels like you simply want to be upset for the sole purpose of being upset.

For many end game raiders it doesn't take a damage share addon to know that doing a boss you normally can do in 30 seconds is now taking 4 minutes to know the group damage is low.

hedna123b14_ESO

Varana wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

So our group wants to use the tool with all the details visible, no one's anonymous. We upload it - is there an option that only members of our group will be able to see and analyse that log? And not Joe from Cincinnati? Or, more importantly, some tool reading logs from the web site and creating player profiles?

There is a huge difference between "I want to use the tool" and "I want to make the logs accessible to all". From your response, it sounds like there is some "private" option - but I'd like to hear from people who actually know this (do you?) instead of wild guessing, and I can't find it in the announcements.

Also, who needs to give permission to upload a log publicly? I hope all group members.

And to clarify, I am not talking about anonymising my name. I am talking about the accessibility of logs themselves.

I know you can make the log private, not sure if you can enable sharing to others...I see your point though.

idk

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

In game they cannot hide their log.

huh?

You said if they do not want the log public they hide their identity. That is not hiding their log.. It does not keep it private.

Edit: the only way to truly opt out is sending the site developer an email asking for such. That means one cannot toggle it, cannot change it easily.

I do not care to share my information outside of my core raid groups, this new tool does not give me that option.

Kihra

Varana wrote: »

So our group wants to use the tool with all the details visible, no one's anonymous. We upload it - is there an option that only members of our group will be able to see and analyse that log?

Yes, logs on the site can be public, private or unlisted.

Public = anyone can see them
Unlisted = anyone can see them as long as they know the URL to go to
Private = only people who have signed up an become members of the guild on the site can see them.

At the moment, all logs are forced to Private and will be for the duration of the PTS NDA.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Liofa wrote: »

I'll be completely honest here. Any end-game raider who joins a PUG, joins with the expectation of the run being bad. When I join a random group, I expect everyone to be bad and ready myself for it. No one is going to waste their time trying to "expose" you because they don't care. They join your group knowing that your performance will be low. Another thing is, they don't need this tool to know about your performance. A quick look at Combat Metrics and seeing that they are pulling 80% of the total DPS, they'll know how your performance is. None of the raiders need this tool to "expose" you, they know how you play while killing the first trash pack.

On the other hand, the things progression and end-game groups can do using this tool is amazing. You may not see the use for it but we do. Especially as a raid leader, this will be the best thing ever. Currently I ask my group members to record their gameplay and send it over so I can observe, point out mistakes and explain how to fix them. This results in them getting better. With this, I won't need that. I'll watch the Log and see everything. It's just amazing. Looking forward to using it ^^

And another class rep applauding..... ..... .....
with no idea of what the "average player's life is like... and arguing from a progression player's point of view...
(*sigh*)

Varana

Kihra wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

So our group wants to use the tool with all the details visible, no one's anonymous. We upload it - is there an option that only members of our group will be able to see and analyse that log?

Yes, logs on the site can be public, private or unlisted.

Public = anyone can see them
Unlisted = anyone can see them as long as they know the URL to go to
Private = only people who have signed up an become members of the guild on the site can see them.

At the moment, all logs are forced to Private and will be for the duration of the PTS NDA.

Thanks for the response, and thanks for considering that.
I don't really understand "guild on the site" but I assume that will become clearer when it launches.
I still think a setting for group-only would be a good idea (or does the Unlisted version basically do the same, i.e. it can't be guessed or trawled by a bot?) but I'm a bit less concerned now.

hedna123b14_ESO

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

In game they cannot hide their log.

huh?

You said if they do not want the log public they hide their identity. That is not hiding their log.. It does not keep it private.

Edit: the only way to truly opt out is sending the site developer an email asking for such. That means one cannot toggle it, cannot change it easily.

I do not care to share my information outside of my core raid groups, this new tool does not give me that option.

Umm you have the option to toggle annonymous WYM?

templesus

Keep it up class reps. With things like this coming out, the game is heading in the right direction. Don’t let dissent backed by evidenceless claims influence your views and especially try your best to not let it influence ZOS’s.

This tool is one of the best things to happen to this game fundamentally in a very long time. Those who reject the notion of it for sheer fear of being humiliated over the internet for whatever reason need to seriously get a grip on reality.

Kihra

Varana wrote: »

I don't really understand "guild on the site" but I assume that will become clearer when it launches.

In the context of ESO, that basically means your raid group. You can make and name an organization called a "guild" and people can join it. You can then make logs only visible to members of that group.

Drummerx04

It seems a little weird that so many people are polarized by the prospect that someone else will see their stats. If you truly don't care about your performance then feel free to ignore any and all criticism that may come your way after you've already left the group and logged off for the night.

Any group that accepts the "average players" will probably never bother "naming and shaming" because that's just not their approach. Progression groups need a little more insight into what's actually going on in the group. As a raid leader myself, I can already tell when someone isn't performing, and hell I've written my own diagnostic real time addons to assist me (See signature). If the group damage/healing/whatever isn't where it needs to be, it is always a good thing to be able to answer the question, "what's going wrong?"

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not afraid of 40-60K DPS players. They know they're above the crowd and they're usually nice. They also usually have their own groups and such.
But I'm truly scared of the 30K DPS self-declared "expert" who will name and shame the 28K player. There's a lot of those in ESO like in any game, like in the real world. We in french call them "petits chefs" and this "tool" gives them, because they're included in the official game, the opportunity to belittle you. People like me, the 20-25K crowd, will refarin from running vet content even more than we (already) do now.

Not everyone is about "improving"... that's the problem.

If you are truly terrified of a rude 30k dps player, then maybe you should learn to tell them to eat a bag of "man meat" and ignore them. Also there should be a pretty significant delay between when a dungeon/trials ends and when they can realistically inspect the data, so in the vast majority of cases, you probably won't even be around to be "shamed"

anitajoneb17_ESO

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with your assessment.
Currently how things work is two ways:
1. Raid leads of groups trying to improve require their players to download CMX and post screenshots of their dps. If you do not post, you are usually removed from the group.
2. Raid leads of casual groups do NOT require you to show screenshots of your dps.

I have nothing against progression groups requiring their members to do progress and do whatever is needed to progress, including using such tools.
Those groups already have tools and use them, and will find this new tool very useful too.

BUT

Current casual groups don't - currently - use such tools because they don't - currently - know they exist or know it's too much to ask from ppl to install it all. But from the moment it's available IN THE BASE GAME, yes, they'll know about it and ask for it and require it. And that's where "elitism", in the bad sense of the term, will start spreading in places where it shouldn't be : casual groups.

I'll make a pretty dirty metaphor here : are firearms available all over the world ? Yes. Anyone who really wants one will get one. But if firearms were available at every grocer around the corner, many more people would have one and many more would use them. (And I'm not talking about their usefulness - or lack thereof - nor risks involved - or lack thereof - here).

T3hasiangod

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'll make a pretty dirty metaphor here : are firearms available all over the world ? Yes. Anyone who really wants one will get one. But if firearms were available at every grocer around the corner, many more people would have one and many more would use them. (And I'm not talking about their usefulness - or lack thereof - nor risks involved - or lack thereof - here).

There are so many things wrong with this comparison and statement in general.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If you are truly terrified of a rude 30k dps player, then maybe you should learn to tell them to eat a bag of "man meat" and ignore them. Also there should be a pretty significant delay between when a dungeon/trials ends and when they can realistically inspect the data, so in the vast majority of cases, you probably won't even be around to be "shamed"

I don't play an MMO to despise people, nor to tell them bad things, nor to ignore what they say, nor to not care what they think, nor to grow a thick skin, nor to whatever negative antisocial piece of advice you feel entitled to give me.
I play MMO to have fun and feel safe with other people who also have fun. And not be on my guard or wearing a psychological armor all the time. The nice thing about ESO, at least on my server (PC/EU) is that most people are really nice and t here's nothing to fear.
The introduction of such "evaluation/diagnostics/ranking" tools is going to harm the nice atmosphere that we have.

FatalForce

I think your metaphor is off the mark @anitaringroseb16_ESO (and in poor taste). As for it being in the base game; it's not. You have to go to website that's not officially run by ZoS (at least my understanding is it is not); it is no different than ESO Leaderboards compiling data and listing it. It is taking information that is presented by the game and compiling it outside the game in a manner people can view after the fact. This is not base game. As for current casual groups not using such tools... Combat Metrics (CMX) has over 1.46 million downloads on esoui.com alone; I'll let you in on a little secret. The 'end-game' raiding community your trying to classify as a completely different set of people with different goals and objectives is made up of less than a couple thousand people (being very very generous with that number, realistically it's probably less than a thousand). It's pretty clear that more than just end game raiders care about their damage and how they are doing.

I came from Xbox originally to PC and Combat Metrics is one of the single biggest advantages of PC players of console players.

anitajoneb17_ESO

FatalForce wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO I really think you don't comprehend the tools that are currently available and well known by the majority of raid leaders. Look at this addon, Hodor Reflexes - DPS & Ultimate Share; it allows you to recreate an entire group damage share by having each person individually broadcast their own damage whilst collecting information from others in the group. It's not a new concept, but the current best option to do so. This won't change anyone from forcing anyone else to report damage; if anything this tool is less oppressive in that regard because it requires someone to go look outside the game where as the damage share addons are available for immediate viewing in the game itself.

What you are advocating is essentially the blocking of any damage information from being transmitted at all; and frankly I think this is willfully ignorant of other peoples goals and desires in the game. It really feels like you simply want to be upset for the sole purpose of being upset.

For many end game raiders it doesn't take a damage share addon to know that doing a boss you normally can do in 30 seconds is now taking 4 minutes to know the group damage is low.

No, it's you who don't understand my point of view - probably because you don't want to.
You're right, I don't know about the addons you're mentioning. Because I don't care. But when something like this becomes an INGAME BASE OPTION, that's an entirely different story.
I don't get upset for the sake of getting upset (by the way, what does that actually mean... ?)
I meet people every day ingame who think they can't do vet dungeons because they don't pull 30K DPS. I have to explain to them that, while some dungeons (mostly DLC dungeons) do require some power, most base game dungeons don't... then I take them, and their 12K-15K DPS, into base game vet dungeons, and they have fun, and we beat it...
This new tool is going to make DPS measurement even more of a central evaluation point in ESO. Simply because it's included in the base game. (And no, having to go to a 3rd party site isn't going to alleviate the problem, everyone uses TTC even though it requires using a 3rd party website).
That's my problem. Being exposed is an issue, but not even the main one. The main issue is defining "DPS" as a core thing in the game, making people believe 30K is a minimum required when it's not, and so on. As I said, it's something that will be extremely useful to the top 20% but extremely harmful to anyone else wanting to do vet content. Not sure why ZOS goes down that road, I guess class reps are to blame ? But yes, I'm extrapolating here...

Fallewarrior

I don't get this whole sentiment of getting exposed, this community being elitist and/or toxic.

Eso has one of the nicest communities out of any multiplayer game I have played.

Most endgame raiders are very willing to give some advice to newer and less experienced players.
I've played this game since the beta and in PVE(!) never really met toxic people.

All this tool does is help groups improve. There isn't anything to expose.
The endgame community in this game is so small and experienced raiders couldn't give a flying F about what other casual groups are doing.

If experienced players join a casual group or pug they full know what they are getting into and are there to help. Not to "expose".

anitajoneb17_ESO

Kihra wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

So our group wants to use the tool with all the details visible, no one's anonymous. We upload it - is there an option that only members of our group will be able to see and analyse that log?

Yes, logs on the site can be public, private or unlisted.

Public = anyone can see them
Unlisted = anyone can see them as long as they know the URL to go to
Private = only people who have signed up an become members of the guild on the site can see them.

At the moment, all logs are forced to Private and will be for the duration of the PTS NDA.

Question... who has the right to upload the data ? Everyone ? Everyone in the group ? The group leader ?
And who decides of the status (public/unlisted/private) of the data ? The group leader ? the "guild" leader ? the uploader ?
Can he/she decide of said status regardless of the approval of every member of the group... ?

idk

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

In game they cannot hide their log.

huh?

You said if they do not want the log public they hide their identity. That is not hiding their log.. It does not keep it private.

Edit: the only way to truly opt out is sending the site developer an email asking for such. That means one cannot toggle it, cannot change it easily.

I do not care to share my information outside of my core raid groups, this new tool does not give me that option.

Umm you have the option to toggle annonymous WYM?

It only means your name is not present. That does not mean your identity is truly hidden.

12 in a group. 11 names present. That is not anonymity.

I do not care if my core team knows what I do. Those of us that raid seriously know we have to earn a place on a team and continuously earn that. For our core teams this tool will be great if it was done even half decent.

That is not the majority of players in this game and it behoove Zos to try to understand that because they have forgotten that here.

Simply put, removing ones name from the parse is insufficient. Having to send an email to a stranger to have your information outside of buffs and debuffs contributed is a huge bar for true anonymity and I am surprised Zos does not get it.

code65536

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Current casual groups don't - currently - use such tools because they don't - currently - know they exist or know it's too much to ask from ppl to install it all. But from the moment it's available IN THE BASE GAME, yes, they'll know about it and ask for it and require it. And that's where "elitism", in the bad sense of the term, will start spreading in places where it shouldn't be : casual groups.

It seems to be that the crux of your concern is that this will be more accessible than CMX. I'm not convinced that it is.

The base game feature is the production of the logfile. This requires that someone type a chat command to enable the logging.

Then, to make use of the log, you need to go to what appears to be a third-party website. Create an account there, download an external piece of software, and then upload the log, at which point the website analyzes and parses the log.

That... sounds more complicated than "look at CMX".

FatalForce

I fully understand your point of view @anitajoneb17_ESO and I again, would very much point you back to what addons are currently available and are used by millions of people. You are being willfully ignorant here if you think that they already aren't, your simple acknowledgement of 'not caring' and unwillingness to educate yourself on the available tools currently used by millions of people means that, as far as I'm concerned, your input on this simply carries very little weight.

If you don't care about CMX, then stop being so indignant about a tool that will be used, and be very helpful, to countless other people. Similar tools exist in other games (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MVQ4ab8PRxwK7gYF#fight=2 for example), and it's about time that ZoS introduces similar features. Stop calling it part of an 'INGAME BASE OPTION' like it's something different than is available with CMX/other addons already. If anything this tool is even further removed from the game than current addons. Again, please educate yourself on what is available before you start crying wolf over something that already can be done through similar purported nefarious means but in actuality isn't.

You are worrying about DPS being easier to compare against other people, when in reality the instant, real-time, impact of this is far less than what current addons like CMX (which again, are used by MILLIONS of people) can already give you. This tool isn't going to alter someones perception of you (in the run itself) that you just queued up with, something like CMX absolutely can. If anything, you should be advocating against the existence of CMX and thus the sharing of any damage related metrics itself. To that, I wish you best of luck and politely hope you utterly fail.

I don't think there's any further point to continuing this conversation until you educate yourself on tools that are currently available, what they can do, and how they are actually used in practice.

anitajoneb17_ESO

FatalForce wrote: »

I don't think there's any further point to continuing this conversation until you educate yourself on tools that are currently available, what they can do, and how they are actually used in practice.

code65536 wrote: »

It seems to be that the crux of your concern is that this will be more accessible than CMX. I'm not convinced that it is.

I'll just ignore the sarcasm and condescending tone of @FatalForce :-) and just go to the point : there's a HUGE difference between a simple addon (no matter how well-know, widely used, and sophisticated it may be) and a feature that's included in the base game, and advertised by ZOS. That's a huge difference, technically and culturally.

As an addition question - and not without a bit of sarcasm on my side this time : if this 'new feature" doesn't bring anything more than what current addons bring, why are you so eager about it ? Should all be old stuff...

kaithuzar

Ice cube said it best..
“If you’re scared go to church.”

hedna123b14_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FatalForce wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO I really think you don't comprehend the tools that are currently available and well known by the majority of raid leaders. Look at this addon, Hodor Reflexes - DPS & Ultimate Share; it allows you to recreate an entire group damage share by having each person individually broadcast their own damage whilst collecting information from others in the group. It's not a new concept, but the current best option to do so. This won't change anyone from forcing anyone else to report damage; if anything this tool is less oppressive in that regard because it requires someone to go look outside the game where as the damage share addons are available for immediate viewing in the game itself.

What you are advocating is essentially the blocking of any damage information from being transmitted at all; and frankly I think this is willfully ignorant of other peoples goals and desires in the game. It really feels like you simply want to be upset for the sole purpose of being upset.

For many end game raiders it doesn't take a damage share addon to know that doing a boss you normally can do in 30 seconds is now taking 4 minutes to know the group damage is low.

No, it's you who don't understand my point of view - probably because you don't want to.
You're right, I don't know about the addons you're mentioning. Because I don't care. But when something like this becomes an INGAME BASE OPTION, that's an entirely different story.
I don't get upset for the sake of getting upset (by the way, what does that actually mean... ?)
I meet people every day ingame who think they can't do vet dungeons because they don't pull 30K DPS. I have to explain to them that, while some dungeons (mostly DLC dungeons) do require some power, most base game dungeons don't... then I take them, and their 12K-15K DPS, into base game vet dungeons, and they have fun, and we beat it...
This new tool is going to make DPS measurement even more of a central evaluation point in ESO. Simply because it's included in the base game. (And no, having to go to a 3rd party site isn't going to alleviate the problem, everyone uses TTC even though it requires using a 3rd party website).
That's my problem. Being exposed is an issue, but not even the main one. The main issue is defining "DPS" as a core thing in the game, making people believe 30K is a minimum required when it's not, and so on. As I said, it's something that will be extremely useful to the top 20% but extremely harmful to anyone else wanting to do vet content. Not sure why ZOS goes down that road, I guess class reps are to blame ? But yes, I'm extrapolating here...

You keep saying BASE GAME IN BOLD....I guess I have to bold it for you to see that several people already told you that it is NOT BASE GAME. And you have to opt in to use it.

Joy_Division

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

This tool does everything that ingame addons do and more... It is really good for progression groups to analyse their mistakes in detail, and for content creators as well because you can literally play your parses/trial runs and logs at the same time when you upload runs to show every step in your rotation etc. The only thing it doesnt do is show a real time dps meter. Uploading a file with the uploader takes only a few seconds though.

I see why it is good for progression groups... but how about everyone else... ?
What happened to "raise the floor / lower the ceiling" ?
The disparity in DPS has raised from 10-40K DPS to 15-60K DPS since "raise the floor / lower the ceiling" was announced... and now this ? Which will only encourage the ceiling to go even higher, and the floor to be even more rejected ?
Ingame addons (Combat Metrics, FTC, etc. ) already provide more than enough information to raid leaders, this only adds the possibility to point an accusing finger at individual players. While progressive groups might be ok with this, how about the average player ? You have no idea how that will impact the "average player". No, I'm not talking about the overland/RP/housing/cosmetics crowd. I'm talking about the average player, who also enjoys doing group vet content, vet DLC dungeons, veteran trials, even if they struggle a bit.

I feel betrayed when I see a class rep approving this. I thought you were also representing the "average, non-competitive crowd". And you promised to. I mean, at least @Joy_Division promised to. Obviously, you don't. If you did, you would at least express some caution towards this "new" tool. It's not 100% as bad a "group damage", but not far. You obviously have no clue what "the average player" goes through...

Oh well...

(edit: grammar).

It's a complex issue.

There are multiple ways of looking at this. As far as how it can help everyone else, well, it is a tool that gives incredible information that any player can look at analyze, see where they could improve their performance, that much is clear. It *can* help everyone as "average" players can use it in the same manner as progression groups.

But I think you are more concerned with information being made public and thus, as you say, people "to point an accusing finger." ZOS has said this won;t be in real time (i.e. after a wipe, crown wont be able to immediately see who parsed lowest and boot). They believe this makes a difference. I can see why you feel it won't because eventually that information will become accessible and potentially a stigma becomes attached.

I will say this. There have been times playing in the past 5 years I have been self-conscious of my DPS and would rather not have that info public for all to see. So I get that. But even without an add-on, I can generally tell what the other DPS in a 4 person group is pulling because I have an internal clock of how fast adds or bosses usually die. That's without add-ons. With Combat metrics, I can see what % of the DPS I am pulling to turn that general impression into a more concrete assessment: If I'm pulling 61% of the DPS, then I don;t need ZOS's proposed program here to know the other DPS probably should rethink their build or practice more on a target dummy. As it is right now without these changes, people who care about this sort of stuff already have more than enough data and information to point accusatory figures.

Also, even though people may feel anonymous in a 12 person trial, I've been in enough progression raids to intuitively know who should stop being embarrassed and ask for a more in depth explanation of mechanics (not just rezzing the same people over, some fights like the twins tells you what player killed you) and if I'm pulling 19% of the DPS on a unoptimized PvP build, then the group as a whole isn;t doing the damage they can be.

My point is even without these tools players are not nearly as anonymous as they might want to think. If people have thought there were anonymous because they haven't been confronted or kicked, that's because - probably - there are a lot of people playing this game that aren't jerks, want to help others, or perhaps realize they're not perfect and thus aren't apt to point accusatory fingers. I have been in many groups in which it was plain that someone wasn't as experienced or as skilled or as knowledgeable of the mechanics and almost always patience and encouragement is directed at that player. Only if there was rude push-back or it becomes obvious that the player isn't up to the challenge of the instance, is a regroup contemplated and that is in my case has been rare; I cannot remember the last time I have been in that situation. I'm not saying there aren't jerks who will write up lists and save it to harddrives using the tool ZOS refers to. I am saying right now, players are not anonymous and those jerks probably already have those lists saved: there is absolutely enough data right now to do that.

There isn;t an easy answer here. Even if ZOS did as you seem to want and just sent this tool to oblivion, I'm still going to have a good idea what your DPS is if we group together. Even if ZOS disables my combat metrics add-on, I'll still generally know what your DPS is. I have eyes, I've done this content before, I know how fast things should die. It's not so easy as not wanting DPS to be public because it kind of already is. I also wish that raid groups and guild leaders would stop being stereotyped as insensitive bullies who are just looking for a reason to boot people. I don't doubt there are some out there, but operating under the premise that somehow it's the standard is crazy. I've been in over a half a dozen PvE guilds, all of them felt themselves to be competitive rather tha casual and *none* fit that description. If they could tell I need help in certain areas - and *all* of them could tell this way before add-ons like this were a thing -then we had a honest and comfortable conversation and I endeavored to improve, which I did. what I saying is, this discussion shouldn't be had under false premises: namely the ESO PvE community is fully of jerks and without this add-on, people who care won't know the overall strength of people they play with.

Edit: To be clear, I am sensitive with your concerns. But I think a more productive way to discuss the subject and what ZOS tool can/should do is to assess what data is already out there.

hedna123b14_ESO

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

In game they cannot hide their log.

huh?

You said if they do not want the log public they hide their identity. That is not hiding their log.. It does not keep it private.

Edit: the only way to truly opt out is sending the site developer an email asking for such. That means one cannot toggle it, cannot change it easily.

I do not care to share my information outside of my core raid groups, this new tool does not give me that option.

Umm you have the option to toggle annonymous WYM?

It only means your name is not present. That does not mean your identity is truly hidden.

12 in a group. 11 names present. That is not anonymity.

I do not care if my core team knows what I do. Those of us that raid seriously know we have to earn a place on a team and continuously earn that. For our core teams this tool will be great if it was done even half decent.

That is not the majority of players in this game and it behoove Zos to try to understand that because they have forgotten that here.

Simply put, removing ones name from the parse is insufficient. Having to send an email to a stranger to have your information outside of buffs and debuffs contributed is a huge bar for true anonymity and I am surprised Zos does not get it.

If you dont have this tool and 11 people out of 12 post parses you will know this same info...lol CMX does this already man..not sure what you mean...