Encounter Logging

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ashtaris wrote: »

I disagree with that assessment. I belong to a casual guild as one of the officers and I have heard of no plans to require anyone in our guild to use the log. If we did use the logging tool, it would be entirely voluntary and nobody would be given the axe just because they wouldn’t use it. That’s not how I or the guild operates.

Just wait and see. I do wish for your guild to remain nice, but I've seen countless nice guilds getting torn apart since the DPS-obsession started somewhere around 2016.

karthrag_inak

templesus wrote: »

Keep it up class reps. With things like this coming out, the game is heading in the right direction. Don’t let dissent backed by evidenceless claims influence your views and especially try your best to not let it influence ZOS’s.

This tool is one of the best things to happen to this game fundamentally in a very long time. Those who reject the notion of it for sheer fear of being humiliated over the internet for whatever reason need to seriously get a grip on reality.

While i agree this tool is pretty cool, i don't agree with the whole "getting a grip on reality" baloney. I think the folks that have their knickers in a twist about how other folks want to opt out completely from a source of unwanted and unnecessary pressure in a _GAME_ need to get a grip on reality. Many folks play this game to -play- and escape reality, not to be shamed or bullied by folks who have a hard time distinguishing between a game and reality.

I can see something like this making casual players even less prone to doing group content, which is definitely the opposite of the "right direction" for the game to be heading in. Hard enough as it is to find good folks to do stuff with.

Masel

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

No, because character data is not personal data.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en

Sorry but account names are clearly pseudonyms and as such personal data as long as people (even if it's only fellow gamers) can use this data to identify a person (even if they don't know their real name).

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

I'll applaud you for thinking outside of the box a little, but I don't see this coming in to play.

1. Your username is already public
2. No real life PII will need to be stored
3. No financial information is on the site
4. No private chat systems or comment sections need to be implemented
5. What privacy is being violated? Your dps in a dungeon? That's not private information, it's just a collection of data that has 0 meaning outside of ESO.
6. The EU may have banned memes, but they haven't banned dps meters yet.

Top tier fear mongering though!

If the data has no meaning outside of ESO or not is of no importance. (I'd say knowing with whom you raid aka. spend your free time can be quite an important information. You might not want it to be published by a third party.).

This is not about fear mongering, just a friendly hint from a legal perspective.

What is this babble? As by your own link:
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual."
Please tie my game name to my real life identity...ill wait...

[edit]

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of? In order to make you feel bad about a perceived bad performance, a player would have to log the whole fight in a dungeon with people he or she doesnt know (if you know who you're with it'd be an even worse move to do that), then go to an external tool to upload it, link it publicly and even then it doesn't show your name for others to see so they have no proof whatsoever of it being you in the first place. If someone wanted to shame others, they can do that more effectively by using CMX already, because it measures group dps in real time and say "I'm doing 80% of group dps". I dont see the fuss about this at all. It is aimed to help people in all aspects of the game who want to improve, and for the rest it will not change anything.

[edited for non-constructive comment]

vesselwiththepestle

I don't understand the benefit of the tool. I am perfectly fine with CMX. What's the advantage of those combat logs?

I guess only a handful of guilds, maybe like 100 players on NA/EU, will make use of it. But how??

karthrag_inak

Masel wrote: »

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of?

For me its the perception of being easily judged ending up discouraging new folks from engaging in group activities, impeding their progress toward getting better, and subsequently diminishing the future pool of good players. Besides, doing dungeons and trials with folks i never met before is how i've met some of my best in-game friends.

Masel

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of?

For me its the perception of being easily judged ending up discouraging new folks from engaging in group activities, impeding their progress toward getting better, and subsequently diminishing the future pool of good players. Besides, doing dungeons and trials with folks i never met before is how i've met some of my best in-game friends.

As I said above: this tool will not make it easier to judge people. CMX is a much easier way to judge people based on their actions and performance while it is happening.

Try to see the other side of the coin as well. If you willingly commit to playing in a group, then you inadvertently make the success of others depend on your actions. That doesnt depend on this tool or cmx or any information available. So the best way for you to go about it would be to try your best, and if you find ways to improve your contribution to the group, then why not do it? If you are unwilling to change at any given point, then you influence others as well. The difference lies in how players on the other hand handle it. I for myself try to help people learn more about the game instead of making fun of them for not "knowing enough". We were all new players at some point.

I can see why exposure is a problem because there are people who need to be better than others to be happy, but if somebody uses this tool to shame others, he or she is simply an *** and should be banned for eternity.

Azurya

what need discussing this if you are not able to play???
last night spent 30 minutes in login queue, then did my 3 crafters, switched to main,..........
disconnect...........
another 27 minutes in login queue spent..............
then
another 39 minutes to my mates in cyrodil
being 3rd in queue, another disconnect.............
didn´t login again............

VaranisArano

Masel wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

No, because character data is not personal data.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en

Sorry but account names are clearly pseudonyms and as such personal data as long as people (even if it's only fellow gamers) can use this data to identify a person (even if they don't know their real name).

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

I'll applaud you for thinking outside of the box a little, but I don't see this coming in to play.

1. Your username is already public
2. No real life PII will need to be stored
3. No financial information is on the site
4. No private chat systems or comment sections need to be implemented
5. What privacy is being violated? Your dps in a dungeon? That's not private information, it's just a collection of data that has 0 meaning outside of ESO.
6. The EU may have banned memes, but they haven't banned dps meters yet.

Top tier fear mongering though!

If the data has no meaning outside of ESO or not is of no importance. (I'd say knowing with whom you raid aka. spend your free time can be quite an important information. You might not want it to be published by a third party.).

This is not about fear mongering, just a friendly hint from a legal perspective.

What is this babble? As by your own link:
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual."
Please tie my game name to my real life identity...ill wait...

Your real name is Elisabeth Hornswoggle, I'm 99% sure on that based on your name.

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of? In order to make you feel bad about a perceived bad performance, a player would have to log the whole fight in a dungeon with people he or she doesnt know (if you know who you're with it'd be an even worse move to do that), then go to an external tool to upload it, link it publicly and even then it doesn't show your name for others to see so they have no proof whatsoever of it being you in the first place. If someone wanted to shame others, they can do that more effectively by using CMX already, because it measures group dps in real time and say "I'm doing 80% of group dps". I dont see the fuss about this at all. It is aimed to help people in all aspects of the game who want to improve, and for the rest it will not change anything.

If I'm perfectly honest, I am concerned by the burden being on the player to jump through hoops to make themselves anonymous and to make sure their information is kept private.

Given that the default seems to be that character name is shown and the log is public, players (especially new players) have to take steps if they don't want their parse info attached to their character names. Some of those are simple - a checkbox. I raised my eyebrow over making an account to claim characters or emailing the site owner. Why am I forced to participate in this to reclaim my privacy I currently have of not having my character name's plastered over everything or to make sure access to my parse data is private?

Its not really a matter of personal fear. I main a tank. My most recognizeable character: Varanis Arano, does a whopping 2 to 8k DPS when she tanks, depending on the fight.

Rather, its a matter of respecting the privacy we currently have. Currently, I get to choose when and where I post my combat parse information. Others can still figure it out, more or less, based on their own Combat Metrics parse, but I don't have to share mine if I don't want to, by default.

I understand the technical side of things doesn't allow for players to opt out entirely. Still, because public is the default setting, I am concerned that this tool assumes that anyone using it - more accurately, that anyone grouped with anyone using it - is alright with having their parse logged, uploaded, and with character names attached. That is clearly a false assumption and I'm afraid it does not give me confidence that this tool adequately considered player privacy

My opinion is that players who want the tracker should opt-in. Anonymity should be the default setting. We should not have to send an email to get an additional layer of privacy if we choose to opt out entirely. Player privacy should be the default, as it currently is.

Borat

Thanks for this tool, it will help greatly for anyone looking to get better and progress while also will help people give advice to their teammates so groupos can grow together. This comes in a great moment for our group as we are starting our first core group for progression trials.

I don't see any problem with that info being uploded to the website, is not like there is any personal information on it, just numbers that WILL ONLY INTEREST the other people in your group 99% of the time.

For sure some people will use it to shame and flame, but they will do that for almost anything in the game, giving those people this tool won't make the worst, they will still be there and do as they always do.

Great job and I hope it keeps getting better and better.

NupidStoob

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of?

For me its the perception of being easily judged ending up discouraging new folks from engaging in group activities, impeding their progress toward getting better, and subsequently diminishing the future pool of good players. Besides, doing dungeons and trials with folks i never met before is how i've met some of my best in-game friends.

But how good you are is already easy to judge. Your positioning, your target priorities, your response to danger, the skills you use, your rotation, part of your build (mainly monster set) are all clear to see to the people in your group. Don't need CMX to know if bosses die quicker or slower than they should either.


To address some things other people are saying: Some people are asking for players with certain DPS or to link achievements of different content already for years and it hasn't really been a problem. Some people also don't ask/care for this and it will stay exactly the same.

As someone who has lead pug vet trial groups multiple times I can say that leechers are a real problem in this game. People that just join an activity even though they know they aren't ready for it and as a result hinder the progress of 11 other people. It's incredibly selfish and I don't care how much you feel like you should be able to do anything in the game. If you refuse to listen to feedback in groupplay actively hindering the group then you deserve to be kicked from it. There are many guilds in this game with different approaches to this. I've been in casual guilds where we would just take anyone into vet trials including HMs sometimes. No minimum DPS requirement or anything similar to that was required. But we would have to ensure that we have a certain amount of the better players to make sure that we can actually clear. There is content where not asking for minimum DPS will simply get your group wiped especially since bad DPS players also tend to die a lot which lowers the DPS even more. It's right here in this thread, "I stay away from group content because I feel excluded" while also writing "I don't care to get better".

Inexperience is totally okay and there are many guilds that take their time to teach newer players the content or how to play in general. With the new guildfinder I hope a lot of people that struggle finding guilds like this will have an easier time.

In the end this is just a tool and they are neither good nor bad. What people do with it matters. *** will stay *** and all this tool does will add another easy way to identify them.

Joy_Division

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's a complex issue.
(snip)
To be clear, I am sensitive with your concerns. But I think a more productive way to discuss the subject and what ZOS tool can/should do is to assess what data is already out there.

I'm snipping for clarity, but your entire post is worth the read, thanks for taking the time to write it.
You insist that all this data is already out there, if that's the case, I wonder why this should be acclaimed as a good idea from ZOS. Where's the added value ?

I'm a bit tired of explaining, but I'll go ahead with 2 examples :

See that boss in Fungal Grotto, the one with the 3 spiders that you have to kite (and if you kill them, the boss gets insanely high resistances) ? Back in the days, people would teach each other to not kill the spiders. That was the clean and fun way of doing that boss. Nowadays, people don't even know about the spiders, kill them in one blow and then complain about "other people's low DPS" because the boss takes forever to kill. That's the big downside of this increasingly DPS-centric road that ZOS seems to be choosing.

I don't know how things are in your country, but here, skiing slopes are categorized in four colors : green, blue, red and black, green being the easiest and black the most difficult. Now the type of slopes I enjoy skiing on are the blue and red ones. The black ones are too frightening and I don't have the technical level to do them safely. I don't mind that. People running black slopes are free to measure themselves and others as much as they want, if they want. And I don't mind not running black slopes. To each their own.
But if someone comes to the red or blue slopes and starts telling me that I should be skiing faster, quicker, differently and whatnot, that's where I get angry.
That's what, in my opinion, is going to happen with such a tool being officially included in the game.

You still seem to assume that everyone wants to get better and improve. I think that's wrong. I find no enjoyment in simply finding the correct rhythm to tap keys. And I believe I'm not the only one, by far.

You may be right when you say that this tool, due to the info not being available in real time, will actually be safer than the current situation. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I'll increasingly stay away from vet group content (I've been doing that for quite a while already anyway), but that's not really my choice. I feel excluded.

I think I've made my point clear enough over several posts here, so I'll leave it at that. I still, however, don't understand why ZOS goes this DPS-centric road which spreads toxicity, makes for a poorer and simplistic game experience, and shuts many players out. I don't get it, I don't get why class reps seem to support it, I just have to assume they know what they're doing...

For one, I do agree it's a mistake that ESO is so DPS-centric. In every other fantasy game I have ever played, there were meaningful ways for players to contribute without doing a lot of damage (indeed, in games like dungeons and dragons, usually non damage spells were better contributors). But, ESO is what it is.

What I am basically saying is that right now, people 100% have the capability to come to the red and blues slopes and tell you to ski faster. If most are not doing so, it's not because they don;t have access to this tool, it is because most of the people playing are not jerks and won;t do so even after they get the tool.

I wouldnt say I am assuming everyone wants to get better. I am saying it would be a mistake to deny people the tools to get better if that's what they want to do. I might feel differently if there was zero way for me to tell how well the other group members are playing, but that's not hard at all to get a good idea right now

idk

FatalForce wrote: »

@idk I take no joy in having to educate someone about what combat metrics is capable of doing. I do think this tool will be an incredibly valuable one, but that is just my opinion (which is just that, an opinion). Just as you have the right to think that I am getting some sort of gratification out of this (which I'm not). I would much rather be spending my time doing something else.

I think this tool would be such a QoL benefit that if I ruffle a few feathers for pointing out people's lack of knowledge then so be it. Ignorance is the simple lack of knowledge about something, that doesn't mean that person isn't intelligent, or that I'm being condescending to that person for calling them ignorant. It's simply pointing out the lack of knowledge on a topic.

To be clear, you are correct that some opinions on the matter differ from mine. That however does not change the fact that the reason I pointed out things had nothing to do with a difference of opinion, but instead had everything to do with pointing out factual truths. I have no issue with others having varying opinions; that's awesome! Best of luck to you on the forums, I for one don't expect to be back anytime soon.

I do not think I suggested you are getting enjoyment out of calling people willfully ignorant. I just think those words are chosen to bait or flame.

I agree this tool I a great QoL for the small percentage of the player base that raids competitively and does progression. Especially if it can capture all aspects in the fight. Not just events players initial.

I just think the extremely poor opt out system is just another case of Zos willfully choosing to not think things through as has happened so many times before.

I have seen a good raid tool that could analyze an entire raids information but required each player to opt in. That is something that every raid group and guild that would use this tool could require, But Zos was not interested in such things.

idk

Masel wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

No, because character data is not personal data.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en

Sorry but account names are clearly pseudonyms and as such personal data as long as people (even if it's only fellow gamers) can use this data to identify a person (even if they don't know their real name).

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

I'll applaud you for thinking outside of the box a little, but I don't see this coming in to play.

1. Your username is already public
2. No real life PII will need to be stored
3. No financial information is on the site
4. No private chat systems or comment sections need to be implemented
5. What privacy is being violated? Your dps in a dungeon? That's not private information, it's just a collection of data that has 0 meaning outside of ESO.
6. The EU may have banned memes, but they haven't banned dps meters yet.

Top tier fear mongering though!

If the data has no meaning outside of ESO or not is of no importance. (I'd say knowing with whom you raid aka. spend your free time can be quite an important information. You might not want it to be published by a third party.).

This is not about fear mongering, just a friendly hint from a legal perspective.

What is this babble? As by your own link:
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual."
Please tie my game name to my real life identity...ill wait...

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of? .

This is really a very weak question and seems intended to belittle those who think a true in-game opt out should be part of this system.

The more important question is why are you willing to let Zos do something half ass like this. If it is because the tool is that great at analyzing raid data because that is a BS answer.

We all know that Zos could have done an proper in game op out and that would not prevent competitive raid groups form requiring all their team opt in since they already require them to share their data as it is.

And yes, I do understand how beneficial this tool will be to competitive raiding just as I know a super majority of the player base will never raid with a group that could really benefit from this.

Baertram

Yep, I'm not afraid of sharing my data IF I ALLOW TO AND ENABLE IT!
I don't care about a games dmg or healing I do and if players decide to not allow me to participate because of that. Their choice, others won't complain and have fun.

But I'm afraid of letting the game collect all the data and sahre it, even if I turn on a checkbox (which should be on by default!), and just will write "anonymous" into the collected data instead of fully suppressing my data if I opt-out.
And then someone else just will use the created txt file and rename anonymous again with my charactername, or even my account name, upload it somehwere which does not officially belong to ZOs.
And there is 1 guy alone for several servers and thousands of users, who needs to
1. get an email where I need to proof these are my characters and I do not want them to be shared online
2. I need to create and account to opt-out the characters once again
1 guy for maybe thousands of complaints. So I need to wait for weeks? And I need to tell this website my characternames or they gu via email? Why not the other way around?

Uploading this data shuld somehow be only accepted if all participating users allowed so in advance, and not afterwards.


I'm not against this tool and idea at all. But teh way it is done currently is not correct.
I'd even like to share my data with ppl I trust and play often with, no problem. But not with every rnd group.
And it's not about the reason of dmg output and fears others might not accept my playstyle.
ESO is very different and I love how you can play and achieve the things in totally different ways and approaches.
It's just because I do not want to see every fgiht of me, even if its "anonymous" on other users logfiles + maybe in the www at some webpages. This is MY decision, or at least I SHOULD BE ABLE to fully decide and control this. Not everyone else, including ZOs or even externals volunteers.

pelle412

Having a means to opt out of this is a good idea. If I lead progression raids, I then also need a way to opt out of players who will not share this data.

I have been in progression groups who were stuck even if all dummy data indicated we should not have a problem and only after forcing everyone to record and post parses could we help a buddy out and get past the pressure points in the raid.

Masel

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

No, because character data is not personal data.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en

Sorry but account names are clearly pseudonyms and as such personal data as long as people (even if it's only fellow gamers) can use this data to identify a person (even if they don't know their real name).

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

I'll applaud you for thinking outside of the box a little, but I don't see this coming in to play.

1. Your username is already public
2. No real life PII will need to be stored
3. No financial information is on the site
4. No private chat systems or comment sections need to be implemented
5. What privacy is being violated? Your dps in a dungeon? That's not private information, it's just a collection of data that has 0 meaning outside of ESO.
6. The EU may have banned memes, but they haven't banned dps meters yet.

Top tier fear mongering though!

If the data has no meaning outside of ESO or not is of no importance. (I'd say knowing with whom you raid aka. spend your free time can be quite an important information. You might not want it to be published by a third party.).

This is not about fear mongering, just a friendly hint from a legal perspective.

What is this babble? As by your own link:
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual."
Please tie my game name to my real life identity...ill wait...

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of? .

This is really a very weak question and seems intended to belittle those who think a true in-game opt out should be part of this system.

The more important question is why are you willing to let Zos do something half ass like this. If it is because the tool is that great at analyzing raid data because that is a BS answer.

We all know that Zos could have done an proper in game op out and that would not prevent competitive raid groups form requiring all their team opt in since they already require them to share their data as it is.

And yes, I do understand how beneficial this tool will be to competitive raiding just as I know a super majority of the player base will never raid with a group that could really benefit from this.

@Kihra provided a reason why an overall opt out is not possible in this very same thread. If you dont believe the addon developer, then what am i supposed to do here? You do realize this helps content creators across the board a lot when making builds as well?

You haven't seen the tool once, yet claim it is half ass... dunno what to say to that anymore

hedna123b14_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's a complex issue.
(snip)
To be clear, I am sensitive with your concerns. But I think a more productive way to discuss the subject and what ZOS tool can/should do is to assess what data is already out there.

I'm snipping for clarity, but your entire post is worth the read, thanks for taking the time to write it.
You insist that all this data is already out there, if that's the case, I wonder why this should be acclaimed as a good idea from ZOS. Where's the added value ?

I'm a bit tired of explaining, but I'll go ahead with 2 examples :

See that boss in Fungal Grotto, the one with the 3 spiders that you have to kite (and if you kill them, the boss gets insanely high resistances) ? Back in the days, people would teach each other to not kill the spiders. That was the clean and fun way of doing that boss. Nowadays, people don't even know about the spiders, kill them in one blow and then complain about "other people's low DPS" because the boss takes forever to kill. That's the big downside of this increasingly DPS-centric road that ZOS seems to be choosing.

I don't know how things are in your country, but here, skiing slopes are categorized in four colors : green, blue, red and black, green being the easiest and black the most difficult. Now the type of slopes I enjoy skiing on are the blue and red ones. The black ones are too frightening and I don't have the technical level to do them safely. I don't mind that. People running black slopes are free to measure themselves and others as much as they want, if they want. And I don't mind not running black slopes. To each their own.
But if someone comes to the red or blue slopes and starts telling me that I should be skiing faster, quicker, differently and whatnot, that's where I get angry.
That's what, in my opinion, is going to happen with such a tool being officially included in the game.

You still seem to assume that everyone wants to get better and improve. I think that's wrong. I find no enjoyment in simply finding the correct rhythm to tap keys. And I believe I'm not the only one, by far.

You may be right when you say that this tool, due to the info not being available in real time, will actually be safer than the current situation. Time will tell. Meanwhile, I'll increasingly stay away from vet group content (I've been doing that for quite a while already anyway), but that's not really my choice. I feel excluded.

I think I've made my point clear enough over several posts here, so I'll leave it at that. I still, however, don't understand why ZOS goes this DPS-centric road which spreads toxicity, makes for a poorer and simplistic game experience, and shuts many players out. I don't get it, I don't get why class reps seem to support it, I just have to assume they know what they're doing...

You have a well developed argument and you carry it through logically. The only issue is that it is built on a faulty premise. You think this tool will enforce more stringent requirements on you, but it really will not. The red and blue slopes you speak of do not have (largely) the system of enforcement you keep bringing up. The definition of casual play is that it is casual. The only time this nee addition will be used to evaluate performance is in groups FOCUSED ON IMPROVING. You have stated over and over that improving yourself is not your goal and I can definitely understand that. What I dont understand is why you say that there are many people like you, but yet make it seem like those people dont all band together into groups to play casually. I would assume that you play with other people that do not want to improve and thus wont really use this tool to evaluate you. The issue only occurs when a player that doesnt want to improve wants to play with people that do. In that situation I can see that player being judged and evaluated, but usually if the raid lead is good they will help that person to get better. If they are not helpful, but instead mean then it's probably not a good group to be a part of in the first place.

TLDR: this wont affect you

hedna123b14_ESO

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of?

For me its the perception of being easily judged ending up discouraging new folks from engaging in group activities, impeding their progress toward getting better, and subsequently diminishing the future pool of good players. Besides, doing dungeons and trials with folks i never met before is how i've met some of my best in-game friends.

You will be judged to a bigger extent if you're in a group with me and my CMX shows me that I'm doing 80% of dps...by the way that happens to me every time I pug and I never say anything to the person, I just help the group get better. You are afraid of a tool that doesnt introduce anything new to the casual players, but serves as an amazing tool for those trying to improve. You are also afraid of something that already exists in real time and does much more damage to groups than the logs - CMX

Heelie

This seems to be a great tool, Hodor reflexes shows live data but this will help us even more root out which damage dealers are lacking behind and bring them up to par with their peers or kick them, I this this will help a lot of raiding groups progress and reform into much more competitive groups.

hedna123b14_ESO

Baertram wrote: »

Yep, I'm not afraid of sharing my data IF I ALLOW TO AND ENABLE IT!
I don't care about a games dmg or healing I do and if players decide to not allow me to participate because of that. Their choice, others won't complain and have fun.

But I'm afraid of letting the game collect all the data and sahre it, even if I turn on a checkbox (which should be on by default!), and just will write "anonymous" into the collected data instead of fully suppressing my data if I opt-out.
And then someone else just will use the created txt file and rename anonymous again with my charactername, or even my account name, upload it somehwere which does not officially belong to ZOs.
And there is 1 guy alone for several servers and thousands of users, who needs to
1. get an email where I need to proof these are my characters and I do not want them to be shared online
2. I need to create and account to opt-out the characters once again
1 guy for maybe thousands of complaints. So I need to wait for weeks? And I need to tell this website my characternames or they gu via email? Why not the other way around?

Uploading this data shuld somehow be only accepted if all participating users allowed so in advance, and not afterwards.


I'm not against this tool and idea at all. But teh way it is done currently is not correct.
I'd even like to share my data with ppl I trust and play often with, no problem. But not with every rnd group.
And it's not about the reason of dmg output and fears others might not accept my playstyle.
ESO is very different and I love how you can play and achieve the things in totally different ways and approaches.
It's just because I do not want to see every fgiht of me, even if its "anonymous" on other users logfiles + maybe in the www at some webpages. This is MY decision, or at least I SHOULD BE ABLE to fully decide and control this. Not everyone else, including ZOs or even externals volunteers.

I think people like you greatly overestimate whether other people will ever care about their performance. No one will look at your stats...no offense, but no one really cares...

anitajoneb17_ESO

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

[
You have a well developed argument and you carry it through logically. The only issue is that it is built on a faulty premise. You think this tool will enforce more stringent requirements on you, but it really will not. The red and blue slopes you speak of do not have (largely) the system of enforcement you keep bringing up. The definition of casual play is that it is casual. The only time this nee addition will be used to evaluate performance is in groups FOCUSED ON IMPROVING. You have stated over and over that improving yourself is not your goal and I can definitely understand that. What I dont understand is why you say that there are many people like you, but yet make it seem like those people dont all band together into groups to play casually. I would assume that you play with other people that do not want to improve and thus wont really use this tool to evaluate you. The issue only occurs when a player that doesnt want to improve wants to play with people that do. In that situation I can see that player being judged and evaluated, but usually if the raid lead is good they will help that person to get better. If they are not helpful, but instead mean then it's probably not a good group to be a part of in the first place.
TLDR: this wont affect you

You don't seem to really know what the "average player's life" looks like ingame. The population isn't nicely split in black and white casual vs. progression. You're right, casuals will stay casual and won't use the tool, and a good progression leader will do progression with people progressing, and, as @Joy_Division explained, they won't get out of the tool anything they can't already see with their naked eyes.
The problem is that there's a whole crowd of "wannabe" inbetween. People who can't tell right from wrong but think they know better and will use this tool to lecture other people based on those figures - and not based on their knowledge of the game. They can also use this to "court" what they think are good players, make friends with them, get some carries and collect some glories.
That's just a few scenarii I can think of right now, among many others.
It will affect me because it will bring competition in a portion of the playerbase where it doesn't belong and does an awful lot of "social damage".
I'll try to keep this post short for once :-)

anitajoneb17_ESO

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I think people like you greatly overestimate whether other people will ever care about their performance. No one will look at your stats...no offense, but no one really cares...

"Noone cares about your data, don't worry' - That's what scammers and phishers say...

SirLeeMinion

Masel wrote: »

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of?

I remember the first time I saw my DPS linked in group chat because Bandit's UI was set to share data. It was a clean fight, the bottom boss of vHRC, nobody died and needed a rez. After my initial shock, I felt tangible relief when I saw my DPS was nearer the top than the bottom and well above the required minimums. But... I usually make a significant effort to rez other members as needed. I run pet sorc for vet trials. When someone is down, I pop a shield to survive rezzing them, then burst heal with matriarch when they come up. It takes a fair bit of magicka and time to do this, and it costs DPS. You can bet on the last boss and in future trials with that guild, I was re-thinking my policy of rezzing players.

I have seen people drop group and guild in vet training trials because they were named and shamed for dying to a mechanic. Maybe this tool will sort toxic trials guilds from those that are not. I think it more likely this will just further separate those who already can run the content from the ones who want to learn it. I've been in toxic Eve online fleets that got the job done, but killed the game for me. I'd hate to see this tool do the same for end-game content.

Varana

Masel wrote: »

@Kihra provided a reason why an overall opt out is not possible in this very same thread.

Well, to me a solution seems to be: If one on the group is opting out completely (instead of just anonymising), then no log is produced, nothing at all, and therefore, no calculations can be thrown off and whatever else would be wonky if one set of the data were missing.

To be honest, I know basically all of our online life is logged by someone somewhere. That means that I get a bit overprotective with things that are under my control, and I'd like to decide for myself what to show to whom, and I think that it is a sign of quality in an online product when it is explicitly opt-in.
It's somewhat a gut reaction, and I will probably come around soon-ish. Still, the procedure - logs are created and uploadable by default, and I have to go through a lot of hoops (mailing someone? like actually??) to control my data - sounds like very ... weird design to me, and would raise all sorts of very justified alarm bells in other contexts.

P.S. Thanks to Kihra for addressing my earlier questions.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Varana wrote: »

Well, to me a solution seems to be: If one on the group is opting out completely (instead of just anonymising), then no log is produced, nothing at all, and therefore, no calculations can be thrown off and whatever else would be wonky if one set of the data were missing.

Yup, I'd agree with that. No log unless everyone opts in.
Progression raid leaders would still be free to require group members to opt-in. And the rest of us would be left in peace.

hedna123b14_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

[
You have a well developed argument and you carry it through logically. The only issue is that it is built on a faulty premise. You think this tool will enforce more stringent requirements on you, but it really will not. The red and blue slopes you speak of do not have (largely) the system of enforcement you keep bringing up. The definition of casual play is that it is casual. The only time this nee addition will be used to evaluate performance is in groups FOCUSED ON IMPROVING. You have stated over and over that improving yourself is not your goal and I can definitely understand that. What I dont understand is why you say that there are many people like you, but yet make it seem like those people dont all band together into groups to play casually. I would assume that you play with other people that do not want to improve and thus wont really use this tool to evaluate you. The issue only occurs when a player that doesnt want to improve wants to play with people that do. In that situation I can see that player being judged and evaluated, but usually if the raid lead is good they will help that person to get better. If they are not helpful, but instead mean then it's probably not a good group to be a part of in the first place.
TLDR: this wont affect you

You don't seem to really know what the "average player's life" looks like ingame. The population isn't nicely split in black and white casual vs. progression. You're right, casuals will stay casual and won't use the tool, and a good progression leader will do progression with people progressing, and, as @Joy_Division explained, they won't get out of the tool anything they can't already see with their naked eyes.
The problem is that there's a whole crowd of "wannabe" inbetween. People who can't tell right from wrong but think they know better and will use this tool to lecture other people based on those figures - and not based on their knowledge of the game. They can also use this to "court" what they think are good players, make friends with them, get some carries and collect some glories.
That's just a few scenarii I can think of right now, among many others.
It will affect me because it will bring competition in a portion of the playerbase where it doesn't belong and does an awful lot of "social damage".
I'll try to keep this post short for once :-)

I repeat, if you are in my group RIGHT NOW and you are a DPS I can tell EXACTLY how much damage you are doing AND in REAL TIME using CMX...so what changes?

VaranisArano

Masel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

No, because character data is not personal data.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en

Sorry but account names are clearly pseudonyms and as such personal data as long as people (even if it's only fellow gamers) can use this data to identify a person (even if they don't know their real name).

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

I'll applaud you for thinking outside of the box a little, but I don't see this coming in to play.

1. Your username is already public
2. No real life PII will need to be stored
3. No financial information is on the site
4. No private chat systems or comment sections need to be implemented
5. What privacy is being violated? Your dps in a dungeon? That's not private information, it's just a collection of data that has 0 meaning outside of ESO.
6. The EU may have banned memes, but they haven't banned dps meters yet.

Top tier fear mongering though!

If the data has no meaning outside of ESO or not is of no importance. (I'd say knowing with whom you raid aka. spend your free time can be quite an important information. You might not want it to be published by a third party.).

This is not about fear mongering, just a friendly hint from a legal perspective.

What is this babble? As by your own link:
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual."
Please tie my game name to my real life identity...ill wait...

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of? .

This is really a very weak question and seems intended to belittle those who think a true in-game opt out should be part of this system.

The more important question is why are you willing to let Zos do something half ass like this. If it is because the tool is that great at analyzing raid data because that is a BS answer.

We all know that Zos could have done an proper in game op out and that would not prevent competitive raid groups form requiring all their team opt in since they already require them to share their data as it is.

And yes, I do understand how beneficial this tool will be to competitive raiding just as I know a super majority of the player base will never raid with a group that could really benefit from this.

@Kihra provided a reason why an overall opt out is not possible in this very same thread. If you dont believe the addon developer, then what am i supposed to do here? You do realize this helps content creators across the board a lot when making builds as well?

You haven't seen the tool once, yet claim it is half ass... dunno what to say to that anymore

@Masel
An overall opt out does not seem possible.

Fine.
This tool can respect player privacy in other ways.

Make "Anonymous" the default, so that players get to choose when and with who their character name is shared, rather than assuming by default that everyone is fine with that.

Make privacy a priority, not something players have to email the site owner to achieve.

Work on, as @Kihra suggested, further refining what information is made public, such as buffs vs DPS, and allow players to control what information is made public beyond what is necessary for the log to function properly.


None of that harms the usage of that tool for dedicated raiding groups. Groups can simply require their players to opt-in without anonymity, and players can decide (as they do now) whether to comply or not.

What it does do is provide a baseline of privacy for all players comparable to what we have now. No one now has their DPS parse posted with their character name unless they choose to share it.

I hope the ESO Logs people and the Devs pay attention and choose to make player privacy a priority. This is an amazing tool for anyone who chooses to use it - and that's really what many of us want - the choice to use it, or at least, the choice to determine how our info is displayed without having our character names shown by default or having to jump through hoops to regain our current level of privacy.

Bladerunner1

So here's a thought, let's say one person in the group has the "Anonymous" box checked. They haven't heard about the website or anything.

Someone else types "/encounterlog" into chat and they see a message, "One or more group members are set to Anonymous, the combat log will display your DPS only."

*Edit* or perhaps it wouldn't say anything, no message or popup, and still only records the one DPS.

idk

Masel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

No, because character data is not personal data.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en

Sorry but account names are clearly pseudonyms and as such personal data as long as people (even if it's only fellow gamers) can use this data to identify a person (even if they don't know their real name).

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Wouldn't compliance with EU privacy laws force an opt-in mechanism? @Kihra

I hope you have consulted a lawyer for professional legal advice on this matter. This could get very expensive for you otherwise imho.

I'll applaud you for thinking outside of the box a little, but I don't see this coming in to play.

1. Your username is already public
2. No real life PII will need to be stored
3. No financial information is on the site
4. No private chat systems or comment sections need to be implemented
5. What privacy is being violated? Your dps in a dungeon? That's not private information, it's just a collection of data that has 0 meaning outside of ESO.
6. The EU may have banned memes, but they haven't banned dps meters yet.

Top tier fear mongering though!

If the data has no meaning outside of ESO or not is of no importance. (I'd say knowing with whom you raid aka. spend your free time can be quite an important information. You might not want it to be published by a third party.).

This is not about fear mongering, just a friendly hint from a legal perspective.

What is this babble? As by your own link:
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual."
Please tie my game name to my real life identity...ill wait...

To the players criticising this tool: what are you afraid of? .

This is really a very weak question and seems intended to belittle those who think a true in-game opt out should be part of this system.

The more important question is why are you willing to let Zos do something half ass like this. If it is because the tool is that great at analyzing raid data because that is a BS answer.

We all know that Zos could have done an proper in game op out and that would not prevent competitive raid groups form requiring all their team opt in since they already require them to share their data as it is.

And yes, I do understand how beneficial this tool will be to competitive raiding just as I know a super majority of the player base will never raid with a group that could really benefit from this.

@Kihra provided a reason why an overall opt out is not possible in this very same thread. If you dont believe the addon developer, then what am i supposed to do here? You do realize this helps content creators across the board a lot when making builds as well?

You haven't seen the tool once, yet claim it is half ass... dunno what to say to that anymore

Groups that choose to use this can easily require everyone to opt in just as they currently require group members to share their data.

And correct, I have not seen the tool in use but if it does not allow me to withhold my dps data with settings in game then it has been done half ass on the part of Zos.

Zos has a history of doing things half ass, not thinking things through, as a sign of poor management at the top. I can give you examples if needed.

Edit: the in game opt out could block all data except the buffs/debuffs that affect the group and the tool would work just fine based on what @kihra stated. That is exactly what can be done via the third party. If it can be done there it can be done in game. The current setup is a design flaw on the part of Zos.

Idinuse

FatalForce wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO I really think you don't comprehend the tools that are currently available and well known by the majority of raid leaders. Look at this addon, Hodor Reflexes - DPS & Ultimate Share; it allows you to recreate an entire group damage share by having each person individually broadcast their own damage whilst collecting information from others in the group. It's not a new concept, but the current best option to do so. This won't change anyone from forcing anyone else to report damage; if anything this tool is less oppressive in that regard because it requires someone to go look outside the game where as the damage share addons are available for immediate viewing in the game itself.

What you are advocating is essentially the blocking of any damage information from being transmitted at all; and frankly I think this is willfully ignorant of other peoples goals and desires in the game. It really feels like you simply want to be upset for the sole purpose of being upset.

For many end game raiders it doesn't take a damage share addon to know that doing a boss you normally can do in 30 seconds is now taking 4 minutes to know the group damage is low.

My god what an elitist tone you have in your condescending attitude to anyone not interested in the elitist circle jerking and e-peen measuring.

The tools that exist are perfectly suitable for raids and players to improve. Publicly making private in game data, or even gathering it, about a player (actions taken, damage or hot done) or absence there of public must be some sort of privacy breach that needs to be looked at imo. This sort of data gathering about a player does not fall in good soil with EU law without it being opting in, I can tell you that. https://www.gdpreu.org/compliance/fines-and-penalties/

This kind of "service" needs to be consciously enabled by choice. The rest of the elite PvE community can continue using CMX and Hodor addons or just make the optimal e-peen measure/bully generator add for yourselves and keep using it without forcing it upon the entire player base.

The attitude of the Class Representatives and the sniffy attitude towards the average (and majority) player makes me think I understand some strange balancing decisions lately.

Considering how serious Zos is in regards of "naming and shaming" and publicly making a name appear in screenshots and vid caps here on a Forum you need an invite to join, and then making something like this publicly available is, as I see it, rather mind blowing.