Encounter Logging

Masel

This tool does everything that ingame addons do and more... It is really good for progression groups to analyse their mistakes in detail, and for content creators as well because you can literally play your parses/trial runs and logs at the same time when you upload runs to show every step in your rotation etc. The only thing it doesnt do is show a real time dps meter. Uploading a file with the uploader takes only a few seconds though.

It is also good for endgame high end groups because they can upload their score runs if they like (the tool has individual leaderboards with different criteria). They can also make guilds on there and have logs only be available to them. It is also a big fps contributor cause it only needs one person in the group to collect all data within the group, and the rest can deactivate group dps and enable light mode in dps and save frames.

You can already log into the website and explore some of the features it has, so go ahead and check it out. It will be shown on eso live and I'm looking forward to testing it next week.

OolongSnakeTea

As long as players have the option to be exempted from being logged, and exempted from having their gear inspected, I'm ok with it- but I have experienced first hand that it develops people into toxic mentality with close minded thinking on meta/ect.

Solinur

Sounds cool. Looks like I can stop working on CMX now without worries.

Kihra

Solinur wrote: »

Sounds cool. Looks like I can stop working on CMX now without worries.

Hi, ESO Logs developer here.

CMX still does things that ESO Logs can't do and will remain invaluable. Once logs become available next week, it will be more clear what the advantages/limitations are of each format. In broad strokes, though, CMX has access to real-time data and more information about the logging player, and ESO Logs has more access to group information.

CMX's data about resource usage, as an example, is significantly better than what I can do on ESO Logs, since you have better access to that info in-game than what I get in logs.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Masel wrote: »

This tool does everything that ingame addons do and more... It is really good for progression groups to analyse their mistakes in detail, and for content creators as well because you can literally play your parses/trial runs and logs at the same time when you upload runs to show every step in your rotation etc. The only thing it doesnt do is show a real time dps meter. Uploading a file with the uploader takes only a few seconds though.

I see why it is good for progression groups... but how about everyone else... ?
What happened to "raise the floor / lower the ceiling" ?
The disparity in DPS has raised from 10-40K DPS to 15-60K DPS since "raise the floor / lower the ceiling" was announced... and now this ? Which will only encourage the ceiling to go even higher, and the floor to be even more rejected ?
Ingame addons (Combat Metrics, FTC, etc. ) already provide more than enough information to raid leaders, this only adds the possibility to point an accusing finger at individual players. While progressive groups might be ok with this, how about the average player ? You have no idea how that will impact the "average player". No, I'm not talking about the overland/RP/housing/cosmetics crowd. I'm talking about the average player, who also enjoys doing group vet content, vet DLC dungeons, veteran trials, even if they struggle a bit.

I feel betrayed when I see a class rep approving this. I thought you were also representing the "average, non-competitive crowd". And you promised to. I mean, at least @Joy_Division promised to. Obviously, you don't. If you did, you would at least express some caution towards this "new" tool. It's not 100% as bad a "group damage", but not far. You obviously have no clue what "the average player" goes through...

Oh well...

(edit: grammar).

Solinur

Kihra wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Sounds cool. Looks like I can stop working on CMX now without worries.

Hi, ESO Logs developer here.

CMX still does things that ESO Logs can't do and will remain invaluable. Once logs become available next week, it will be more clear what the advantages/limitations are of each format. In broad strokes, though, CMX has access to real-time data and more information about the logging player, and ESO Logs has more access to group information.

CMX's data about resource usage, as an example, is significantly better than what I can do on ESO Logs, since you have better access to that info in-game than what I get in logs.

Don't worry, I wasn't serious
But I am certainly very interested in what the log and the portal can do. This will probably influence CMX in one way or another. Looking forward to this

Rustyfish101

Question:
Took a look at the website and it looks incredibly thought out and detailed which makes me happy and excited but one thing worries me... Is this going to be worldwide or serverwide, or only the logs you've personally saved? I'd feel uncomfortable posting a log without someone's consent if many people will be able to see it. Just because I wanted to know about something that happened during an encounter.

@Kihra perhaps you could shed some light?

Masel

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

This tool does everything that ingame addons do and more... It is really good for progression groups to analyse their mistakes in detail, and for content creators as well because you can literally play your parses/trial runs and logs at the same time when you upload runs to show every step in your rotation etc. The only thing it doesnt do is show a real time dps meter. Uploading a file with the uploader takes only a few seconds though.

I see why it is good for progression groups... but how about everyone else... ?
What happened to "raise the floor / lower the ceiling" ?
The disparity in DPS has raised from 10-40K DPS to 15-60K DPS since "raise the floor / lower the ceiling" was announced... and now this ? Which will only encourage the ceiling to go even higher, and the floor to be even more rejected ?
Ingame addons (Combat Metrics, FTC, etc. ) already provide more than enough information to raid leaders, this only adds the possibility to point an accusing finger at individual players. While progressive groups might be ok with this, how about the average player ? You have no idea how that will impact the "average player". No, I'm not talking about the overland/RP/housing/cosmetics crowd. I'm talking about the average player, who also enjoys doing group vet content, vet DLC dungeons, veteran trials, even if they struggle a bit.

I feel betrayed when I see a class rep approving this. I thought you were also representing the "average, non-competitive crowd". And you promised to. I mean, at least @Joy_Division promised to. Obviously, you don't. If you did, you would at least express some caution towards this "new" tool. It's not 100% as bad a "group damage", but not far. You obviously have no clue what "the average player" goes through...

Oh well...

(edit: grammar).

Progression groups are not equal to high end raiders. I join groups at both ends frequently and both will benefit from this, because it makes things more transparent without getting you into the blame and shame game, because you can leave logs private and be anonymous if you dont want to be on there. You will have a much easier time learning rotations with this tool. You have a much easier time tracing why you cannot reach higher level of damage. In order to raise the floor and lower the ceiling you have to look elsewhere.

Sets that provide high single target pressure with conditions that are difficult to achieve are one aspect, another is the high light attack damage. There are many more, but this tool will not contribute to that. What you do over there looks like a slight overreaction...


And ofc I know what average players go through. But as I said, this is more friendly to the average player than real-time addons, which is exactly why ZoS went this way. It gives everyone an analysis tool that makes improving easier, so how is this bad for average players?

Kihra

Rustyfish101 wrote: »

Question:
Took a look at the website and it looks incredibly thought out and detailed which makes me happy and excited but one thing worries me... Is this going to be worldwide or serverwide, or only the logs you've personally saved? I'd feel uncomfortable posting a log without someone's consent if many people will be able to see it. Just because I wanted to know about something that happened during an encounter.

@Kihra perhaps you could shed some light?

Sure, as mentioned by Bobby, you'll be able to check a checkbox in-game that will cause your name to be omitted when logging. This means if someone did upload it to the Web site, it will just show up as Anonymous and have no connection to any specific character.

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

Rustyfish101

Kihra wrote: »

Rustyfish101 wrote: »

Question:
Took a look at the website and it looks incredibly thought out and detailed which makes me happy and excited but one thing worries me... Is this going to be worldwide or serverwide, or only the logs you've personally saved? I'd feel uncomfortable posting a log without someone's consent if many people will be able to see it. Just because I wanted to know about something that happened during an encounter.

@Kihra perhaps you could shed some light?

Sure, as mentioned by Bobby, you'll be able to check a checkbox in-game that will cause your name to be omitted when logging. This means if someone did upload it to the Web site, it will just show up as Anonymous and have no connection to any specific character.

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

So anyone can see anything that is uploaded onto the site? From the very best uploaded to the average pug group to your own personal logs? Do these logs ever expire then? Seems like a lot of info to track on the website's side.

FatalForce

People that are complaining about the possibility of getting singled out or 'exposed' online after a dungeon/trial for having poor damage is quite frankly being willfully ignorant of what's possible currently.

If you're in a dungeon and you're sitting at 85% of group damage as a tank, you know factually that the other 2-3 members are performing very poorly. You don't need a new tool to know exactly how much each other person is pulling individually. Just like in a trial where you can, and many do, post parses or use addons like Hodor Reflexes to share your own damage with everyone else that then gets displayed (effectively enabling an opt-in manner what many people cried out against in the past).

The question I have for people that are advocating against this tool is this. Is there currently an issue with shaming people in this manner? As far as I am aware this isn't an issue. Realistically speaking this tool doesn't enable any malicious behavior that isn't possible to do already with the tools that are widely accepted as OK by the community.

So unless you want to support the removal of all damage reporting features from the game, this feature quite simply doesn't change much from the malicious intent side of things.

Is the concern that people will post on this forum naming and shaming people that are performing poorly? (would be against the ToS) That people will name and shame in discords? (can be done now without any additional tools) That someone will get removed from a progression group/end-game raiding group for poor performance? (can be done now without any additional tools).

The ability to point fingers is already there; and if you don't experience issues with it now, then I doubt things will change much with this tool.

The tool itself appears to be a very valuable asset for assessing group performance and recognizing how your damage is over the length of a trial compared to other groups, and also allows for statistical analysis between different classes and focuses. Overall I fully support the tool and think it's a great thing for the game and gives people at all skill levels resources to improve.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Masel wrote: »

(snip)it makes things more transparent without getting you into the blame and shame game, because you can leave logs private and be anonymous if you dont want to be on there.

I don't think so... how are you "anonymous" when 11 other players are named and you're the "anonymous" one ?

Masel wrote: »

(snip)You will have a much easier time learning rotations with this tool. You have a much easier time tracing why you cannot reach higher level of damage.

See, this is exactly where it shows you're not on the same "level". The "average player" is, in my view and in my words, someone who wants to enjoy the game, but not "work" and not "study" and not "practice". Someone who wants to PLAY and HAVE FUN. That sort of average person, currently, pulls 20-25K DPS. That's not high, but that's enough to enjoy most of the vet content. Maybe not vMoL, maybe not vFV, but surely all vet Craglorn trials. I completed vAA HM once with a group of 140-150K DPS combined. Took a loooong time, but we did not wipe and had great coordination, solidarity and FUN. That experience will remain in one of my best ESO memories ever.

Masel wrote: »

And ofc I know what average players go through.

I don't think so. Don't take it as a personal attack, or even as an attack. It's just a statement. You simply can't, because you're not one of them. One of us. You can't understand the attitude of someone who wants to enjoy the game, but doesn't want to *work* in the game. We don't want to "git gud". We don't aim at "getting better". We want to have fun running dungeons and trials without having to pull 30K DPS first - or be left with the "normal", too easy, boring option. And we don't want DPS to be the alpha and omega of anything and everything in this game.

Masel wrote: »

But as I said, this is more friendly to the average player than real-time addons, which is exactly why ZoD went this way.

Is it a lesser evil ? I don't know. I don't know what addon authors had on their burner in this particular field. But you can't make a lesser evil a good thing just because it's a lesser evil. ZOS didn't have to do that.

Right or wrong, I'm convinced that 80% of players are like me (yes this percentage is a figure of speech and out of nowhere, just a mix between my experience in the game and my intuition). And we feel increasingly excluded by the combat designers. And this new "tool" adds to it. What would help us would be a concrete "raise the floor/lower the ceiling" goal. But this "tool" isn't the core issue on that aspect, I agree with you on that point.

idk

Kihra wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Sounds cool. Looks like I can stop working on CMX now without worries.

Hi, ESO Logs developer here.

CMX still does things that ESO Logs can't do and will remain invaluable. Once logs become available next week, it will be more clear what the advantages/limitations are of each format. In broad strokes, though, CMX has access to real-time data and more information about the logging player, and ESO Logs has more access to group information.

CMX's data about resource usage, as an example, is significantly better than what I can do on ESO Logs, since you have better access to that info in-game than what I get in logs.

It has been cleared up that this is the person who created the website to analyze the data.

Gilvoth

Masel wrote: »

really good for progression groups to analyse

analyse and study and dissect as much as you want to with your own numbers and your friends numbers.
but, i want the choice to opt out and for it to not be Obvious i opted out.
right now, the way its set up, its Way too easy to determine the person whom flagged himself as anonymous, especially if is only 4 members in the group and only 1 is flagged anonymous.
that's not cool.

let me be as clear as possible on this, i simply don't want to be a guinea-pig test subject. and allowing us to personally choose to opt out would show obviously we alone chose to opt out and would lead to even more griefing and trolling and harassment then we Already have, especially from the elitist.

this is horrible.

idk

FatalForce wrote: »

People that are complaining about the possibility of getting singled out or 'exposed' online after a dungeon/trial for having poor damage is quite frankly being willfully ignorant of what's possible currently.

It would seem, based on this comment, that you are being willfully ignorant of the situation.

Besides the clear statement and concern Zos has had about player privacy, specifically commenting on why we cannot inspect other players and more, that this flies in the face of that.

Second, who is advocating against this tool? From what I read the only concern brought up players cannot choose to opt out. Zos is forcing all players to willfully provide this data even thought most of the history of this game they have blocked that data, giving us each control of it.

Being about to remove our name is not anonymity.

EDIT; I am a raider. I run in core groups competitively and run with more casual groups. I can see the benefit of the tool for groups that run regularly together and have no issue that my core groups will require it being turned on. The issue is that everyone who groups with others has not choice but to provide this information to anyone in the group.

Trying to make the argument about the added feature vs the real issue being brought up does a disservice to the conversation.

anitajoneb17_ESO

FatalForce wrote: »

People that are complaining about the possibility of getting singled out or 'exposed' online after a dungeon/trial for having poor damage is quite frankly being willfully ignorant of what's possible currently.

Yes, the issue is the fear of being "exposed".
And yes, we may be very ignorant of what's currently possible, but most other players will also be ignorant of this - whereas noone will be ignorant of what's officially possible with the base game... that makes a huge difference.

FatalForce wrote: »

The question I have for people that are advocating against this tool is this. Is there currently an issue with shaming people in this manner? As far as I am aware this isn't an issue.

But now no such tool is included in the official base game. Not many "average players" look at esoui in details and have a close look at addons. They will, however, have a look at ingame options.
Furthermore, there is ALREADY a big issue that is mentioned here on these forums on a regular basis : "why isn't there anyone to run vet dungeons" ? Well, the answer is "afraid of not pulling enough DPS and of being named and shamed for it". Simple as that. This new option won't help at all.

I'm not afraid of 40-60K DPS players. They know they're above the crowd and they're usually nice. They also usually have their own groups and such.
But I'm truly scared of the 30K DPS self-declared "expert" who will name and shame the 28K player. There's a lot of those in ESO like in any game, like in the real world. We in french call them "petits chefs" and this "tool" gives them, because they're included in the official game, the opportunity to belittle you. People like me, the 20-25K crowd, will refarin from running vet content even more than we (already) do now.

FatalForce wrote: »

Overall I fully support the tool and think it's a great thing for the game and gives people at all skill levels resources to improve.

Not everyone is about "improving"... that's the problem.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gilvoth wrote: »

i want the choice to opt out and for it to not be Obvious i opted out.

^^ THIS ^^

anitajoneb17_ESO

idk wrote: »

[
This person seems to be claiming to work for ESO, unless I have mistaken the comment in bold. Why is their name not tagged as being with Zos.

The ingame feature is developed by ZOS. The site onto which the data can be uploaded and read is developed by a member of the community - Kihra - as the original post mentioned. I see no inconsistency here.

T3hasiangod

Dear everyone who is crying about the lack of opt out optionality...

Kihra wrote: »

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

Varana

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

anitajoneb17_ESO

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Dear everyone who is crying about the lack of opt out optionality...

Kihra wrote: »

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

And... ? Is that going to erase our data entirely, or just flag us as anonymous ?

because, just to make things clear, you see :

4-group-data :
- Mary : 30K
- John : 45K
- Steven : 28K
- Lewis : 18K

same 4-group-data with "anonymity" :
- Mary : 30K
- John : 45K
- Steven : 28K
- Anonymous : 18K

See the problem here... ?

idk

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

[
This person seems to be claiming to work for ESO, unless I have mistaken the comment in bold. Why is their name not tagged as being with Zos.

The ingame feature is developed by ZOS. The site onto which the data can be uploaded and read is developed by a member of the community - Kihra - as the original post mentioned. I see no inconsistency here.

Thx. Wish they would have stated they were the player who created the website vs just saying they worked on ESO logs.

So pardon my confusion as it is true that IDK.

Kihra

Regarding anonymity, I have lots of options for what I can do in the report UI of my site.

At the moment, the data shows up, but the name is listed as Anonymous, and everything else is unchanged. It's important for the data to be collected for anonymous players, because the logs essentially break if data is missing. Absorbs tracking, buff tracking, etc. breaks down and doesn't really work if the data for a person who is overwriting someone else's buff is missing, for example.

For example if person A and person B both apply Minor Savagery, but B is anonymous, if B's data didn't get written out at all, the log essentially breaks.

That said, what I can show in the UI for anonymous players is flexible. I could simply exclude them from damage done/healing done tables completely while keeping buffs/debuffs intact. I could lump all anonymous players together into a single damage done bar that isn't drillable, etc. There are lots of options.

FatalForce

That is completely detectable with addons as is, and is not currently a problem with people being shamed. You are worrying over something happening that can already be done and isn't.

By default, it should be set to disabled and only by explicitly enabling it will you share your data. I've already made the suggestion of completely redacting 'anonymous' or not reporting any instance unless all members have opted in (not sure if that's possible), but I really can't stress enough that people that are concerned about being exposed can already be exposed quite easily, and it doesn't happen.

This isn't really 'base game' as you have to go to an external third party tool to look at rankings, similar to ESOleaderboards which has ranking compiled. If you've ever run a trial and put up a score, your name goes on there too.

T3hasiangod

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Dear everyone who is crying about the lack of opt out optionality...

Kihra wrote: »

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

And... ? Is that going to erase our data entirely, or just flag us as anonymous ?

because, just to make things clear, you see :

4-group-data :
- Mary : 30K
- John : 45K
- Steven : 28K
- Lewis : 18K

same 4-group-data with "anonymity" :
- Mary : 30K
- John : 45K
- Steven : 28K
- Anonymous : 18K

See the problem here... ?

Oh no, so now instead of everyone knowing who Lewis is, only Mary, John, and Steven know. The travesty! /s

Fatal has already mentioned that there are currently many tools in the game that are capable of providing the same information that this new logger is providing. So literally nothing is changing.

I can already tell when my group members are being bad just by using CMX. I can already tell which member of my raid group isn't pulling their fair share via Hodor Reflexes.

This logging tool only provides benefits to the community.

Liofa

I'll be completely honest here. Any end-game raider who joins a PUG, joins with the expectation of the run being bad. When I join a random group, I expect everyone to be bad and ready myself for it. No one is going to waste their time trying to "expose" you because they don't care. They join your group knowing that your performance will be low. Another thing is, they don't need this tool to know about your performance. A quick look at Combat Metrics and seeing that they are pulling 80% of the total DPS, they'll know how your performance is. None of the raiders need this tool to "expose" you, they know how you play while killing the first trash pack.

On the other hand, the things progression and end-game groups can do using this tool is amazing. You may not see the use for it but we do. Especially as a raid leader, this will be the best thing ever. Currently I ask my group members to record their gameplay and send it over so I can observe, point out mistakes and explain how to fix them. This results in them getting better. With this, I won't need that. I'll watch the Log and see everything. It's just amazing. Looking forward to using it ^^

idk

Kihra wrote: »

Rustyfish101 wrote: »

Question:
Took a look at the website and it looks incredibly thought out and detailed which makes me happy and excited but one thing worries me... Is this going to be worldwide or serverwide, or only the logs you've personally saved? I'd feel uncomfortable posting a log without someone's consent if many people will be able to see it. Just because I wanted to know about something that happened during an encounter.

@Kihra perhaps you could shed some light?

Sure, as mentioned by Bobby, you'll be able to check a checkbox in-game that will cause your name to be omitted when logging. This means if someone did upload it to the Web site, it will just show up as Anonymous and have no connection to any specific character.

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

It is not sufficient that we have to contact you specifically to totally opt out. It should be something we can choose and change anytime.

Case in point. I have raided on core teams for years and am used to having to share my CM SS whenever asked when running on a core team. For this the tool is great.

However, I run with less experienced groups and do not want to appear as a showboat if someone decides to grab the encounter. In another game (where we could opt in or out) I have seen the stress because my EHPS and HPS were significantly higher than anyone else and I dps was stronger as well. Some whined about it which I found stressful so I stopped sharing my info outside of progression runs.

So, the tool is a great idea, but it needs an opt out at the source that can be toggled as desired. The web site is not the source. I do not want to be driven from one aspect of the game or the other and that is what the current design would do based on my past experience.

Edit: BTW, even sending this person an email to fully opt out is a pretty extreme step.

hedna123b14_ESO

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

idk

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Did I understand this correctly -

When players Aragoon, Bulbough, Celebroom, and D'ohrin run a dungeon and upload their log, then I (and everyone else) can access and view and analyse that log, even though I was neither in that group nor have any permission from them?

If so, who the hell thought that would be a good idea?!? (Sorry, Kihra.)

If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

If they dont want that log public they hide their identity or keep it private...if you can see that log that means they didnt care if you did...

In game they cannot hide their log.

Gilvoth

T3hasiangod wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Dear everyone who is crying about the lack of opt out optionality...

Kihra wrote: »

In addition, the site itself supports just opting out completely and saying you don't want to ever be ranked, etc. This will be possible by either just sending an email to me through the site's contact us link asking for your character to be hidden (if say you accidentally forgot to check the box in-game), or by creating an account, claiming your character, and toggling its visibility to hidden yourself.

And... ? Is that going to erase our data entirely, or just flag us as anonymous ?

because, just to make things clear, you see :

4-group-data :
- Mary : 30K
- John : 45K
- Steven : 28K
- Lewis : 18K

same 4-group-data with "anonymity" :
- Mary : 30K
- John : 45K
- Steven : 28K
- Anonymous : 18K

See the problem here... ?

This logging tool only provides benefits to the community.

yeah, the community of griefer's, Harasser's, Elitist's, Hater's, and Troll's.