Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

kind_hero wrote: »

Look, you can buy style books from the crown store for motifs that are quite hard to get, or expensive in game, like Welkynar. Isn't that pay 2 win? You will say it is just cosmetics, which is true, but it is a shortcut, and adds to your chance of getting better writs, which in time adds to more in game gold, and real power.

Motifs are just cosmetic. You don't need them. They give no power.

I have a Grand Master Craftsman with all motifs and I never once felt any pressure to buy a motif in the Crown Store, other than the 3 Crown Store Only motifs which aren't available in-game. I even won a few full motifs in Crown Crates, back when they gave out freebies, and I even converted them into gems; that's how much I didn't need them because they're so easy to buy in game. That's not Pay-to-Win, that's Pay-to-Bling which is quite literally one of the few things you can have in a Crown Store that don't cross the line into Selling Advantage - Cosmetics.

kind_hero wrote: »

Skyshards do not really offer power. It allows you to unlock skills faster, but we are talking about things that you have already done, not like motifs where you are basically cheating your way towards grand master crafter. How does this affect you? With skyshards none at all, because it is something already earned, but with motifs it is not the same, some are farming motifs or spending tons of gold to complete their collection, while others just use the cash shop and skip all that effort. And I repeat.. motifs are not just cosmetics, motif knowledge adds to your ability to make more money in game.

I have only 3 chars which are well developed, but I do not want to create an other because I just don't want to collect skyshards and guilds rep a 4th time... I prefer doing new content or stuff that I missed, not wasting my playtime with the same chore.

Skyshards directly offer power because every 3 of them give a Skill Point. Power, no matter how slight is Advantage.

I have 15 characters which the average player would consider well developed - max leveled, 150+ Skill Points, main Skill Lines maxed, all Crafting Skills at level 50, all non-DLC dungeons completed, a few gear options with full sets. I personally only consider 8 of them well developed, which I define for myself as also able to turn in all of the top-tier crafting writs. Despite having the skills maxed, it takes a lot more Skill Points to make use of those skills.

It takes next to no time to level a character. Compared to that, it takes ages to collect enough Skill Points to make full use of their skills. Being able to just buy those Skill Points is Advantage.

Elsonso

Other.

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

I am not please with this at all. This is no longer pay for convenience, this is Pay To Win.This is adding actual power to your character. They won't be getting any money for this from me, nor anymore sub money.

How the *** does this make you stronger? You clearly lack an understanding for how this works or your just a closed minded sheep.

Have you tried to do a DPS parse without passives and unmorphed skills? Do you not know how the game works?

A more interesting question is whether you have tried to do a DPS parse on a character that does not have the experience required to select the passives and morphed skills? This is the situation we have with the Crown Skyshards. It is like owning 500 gallons of gasoline, but no car to use it in.

ErMurazor

Merlight wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

Whats so hard to understand?!? P2W = With real money buy things you cant get in game.

Thus skyshards, xp scrolls, horsetraining and so on are just timesavers NOT P2W

I don't think you understand your own definition of P2W. Can you get instant 60 horsetraining for 0 gold in game? Can you get 5 skill points instantly in game?

Thanks for making my point clearer. Its all about convienience and time saved. And its great for someone with a full time job and family like me. I can get my new chars ready faster.

CassandraGemini

Other.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Do people know they can buy crowns with in game gold?

@CassandraGemini I usually play an hour or 2 a day on xbox, just 3 normal pledges is one hour = 20k from selling dungeon junk and gold pick ups. That idealised 650k you suggest is approx 32 days, or just over 1 month. If you do a delve or dome other content in your extra hour, you can easily make it and more in a few weeks.

Changed to pc just shy of a month ago, hit cp300 recently, have 80 skill points, play 2 hours daily, banked over 100k. Its easier to make money at max cp, just as easy, but slower with more expenses for new characters. Not impossible.

Hm, okay. Then maybe that's just my personal experience. I'm at around 350 cp and I decon most of the gear I find instead of selling it. Don't really do writs either, or no master writs anyway. I mean, yeah, I've bought lots of stuff already (mostly crafting materials, some recipes and some gear, too), which was pretty expensive, and right now I'm sitting on approx. 350000 gold. So, yeah, sure, if you really set your mind to farming gold to buy the crowns, you can probably do it. I guess I'm just biased against the whole thing, since this monetizing scheme irks me so much.

Merlight

Tandor wrote: »

No indeed, but you can get them over time so the ability to buy them instantly is purely a matter of convenience.

That argument is invalid. You can get anything in the game over time (except what's already paygated), so buying anything instantly would be purely a matter of convenience. Having a brand new character with all abilities unlocked and ready to morph, all traits researched and backpack full of mats, would be pretty convenient, don't you think?

I'm sick of this "convenience" nonsense. It's a term that unscrupulous marketing came up with to cover up blatant pay-to-win, and later pay-for-relief, and people keep consuming and white-knighting this bull crap. If you want this and future games to be inconvenient by design, monetizing wickedly engineered mixture of fun and frustration, then go ahead and buy extra "convenience" in the cash shop.

Malmai

It is win for ZOS...

NyassaV wrote: »

I still want global achivements

Dont worry will be in next dlc you will just have to buy it ofc again...

Pourekos

Other.

My take on this is very simple: it is not P2W, but it is something as bad (imo), a 100% Korean-style grinder element. In case you don't know what these are, they are simply very long grinds/time-sinks/time-wasting that you can wave away with your credit card. It's the main reason bar none that I am not playing any Korean MMOs, despite some of them looking quite interesting, and if ESO goes down that route then it will be the reason I will start looking at other games.

At the end of the day, there are a million different other ways to make money instead of this kind of practises. I am giving ZOS a sub every month because I feel as a relatively new player that it is worth it and I want to reward the company for it. However, if they start showing that their intention is to turn this game into a Korean grindfest for the purpose of giving the option to buy yourself out of it, I am out.

Wolfpaw

No it's not P2W.

Not a debate at all, not p2w.

danno8

No it's not P2W.

In my mind there are more than just P2W and no P2W. There are levels between the two.

There is straight up no -store at all, all advancement is gameplay attained only.

There is P2Advance, or P2Endgame, which is where you can get the same or similar gear items as can be acquired by just playing the game normally and investing a reasonable amount of gameplay time.

Then there is P2W, where the people who use store bought item are more powerful than you can ever become (or reasonably attain without a crazy amount of grinding) without opening your wallet to DIRECTLY purchase an item (which means I don't count subbing to the game in order to play content and attain related items as "P2W" )

I believe this is a case of the second option.

Ozby

Other.

No I do not think its P2W but I am not happy they want to charge crowns for this, just goes to show how really greedy they are becoming.

cynaes

No it's not P2W.

It's not P2W for me. It's got nothing to do with random luck (e.g. Loot tables). It's a time saver.

And knowing what ZOS charges for additional Outfit Slots, it's a time saver I'm most likely never gonna buy.

The only thing that could become shady is, if they somehow manage to make it more difficult to collect skyshards (or any other stuff they intend to add to this unlock mechanic). But so far that seems unlikely, as Psijic (for me) has done a nice job of synergizing a skill line with skyshards and Mage guild books.

Tandor

No it's not P2W.

Merlight wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

No indeed, but you can get them over time so the ability to buy them instantly is purely a matter of convenience.

That argument is invalid. You can get anything in the game over time (except what's already paygated), so buying anything instantly would be purely a matter of convenience. Having a brand new character with all abilities unlocked and ready to morph, all traits researched and backpack full of mats, would be pretty convenient, don't you think?

I'm sick of this "convenience" nonsense. It's a term that unscrupulous marketing came up with to cover up blatant pay-to-win, and later pay-for-relief, and people keep consuming and white-knighting this bull crap. If you want this and future games to be inconvenient by design, monetizing wickedly engineered mixture of fun and frustration, then go ahead and buy extra "convenience" in the cash shop.

I'd rather play the game myself, and with all my characters on two accounts, but clearly some don't have the patience to do so and will buy a quicker approach - which doesn't actually give them any advantage over those players who have played the game the way it was intended to be played.

Merlight

Tandor wrote: »

I'd rather play the game myself, and with all my characters on two accounts, but clearly some don't have the patience to do so and will buy a quicker approach - which doesn't actually give them any advantage over those players who have played the game the way it was intended to be played.

Oh, the second paragraph was not aimed at you, sorry if it come out that way. It was meant more as a general retort to that C-word being sprinkled all over this place.

ookami007

No it's not P2W.

No, Pay to Win is something you MUST buy to have the edge. Skyshards CAN be collected on your own... it's just a time saving convenience. One I can't justify paying for because whatever the price is, it will - of course - be outrageous. It will probably be another "Outfit" scam - yes, you pay 349857398457389475 crowns to unlock ONE ZONE of skyshards on ONE CHARACTER.

No thanks.

Vandril

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

Whatever it is, I am cancelling my sub. Switching back to WoW became a possible option again. And that whole stream was borderline insulting: Dragons? DRAAAGOOONS! My leg tattoo takes time. BtwCrownsforGuilds&Skyhards. Did I say draaagooons? It leaves a bitter taste.

Please don't. BFA is a terrible expansion and Blizzard needs to not think otherwise. I urge you to look for an MMO you haven't tried yet, instead.

Ertosi wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Look, you can buy style books from the crown store for motifs that are quite hard to get, or expensive in game, like Welkynar. Isn't that pay 2 win? You will say it is just cosmetics, which is true, but it is a shortcut, and adds to your chance of getting better writs, which in time adds to more in game gold, and real power.

Motifs are just cosmetic. You don't need them. They give no power.

This is a little known fact, so you may not know, but your Master Writ drop chance from doing daily crafting writs and how many vouchers your average Master Writ drop is worth (or maybe it was just one of the two; it's been a long time since I looked into it) increases dramatically based on how many Motifs you have collected. This directly translates to more gold over time and an easier time purchasing items and equipment that will increase your overall power, all from something that can be purchased in the cash shop.

(I've read that crown store exclusive Motifs don't count toward the Master Writ drop chance, though. But take that with a grain of salt; it's hearsay.)
Edit: Did a little research. It's been confirmed by a ZOS employee that the crown-exclusive motifs don't count.

For the most part, Skyshards will do the same thing. The reality is, most players will not have the experience required to use the additional Skill Points on extra skills and passives earlier than players who have not purchased Skyshards. This may change if they add skill line levels to the cash shop, but until then this is a non-issue. So most players who purchase Skyshard SP before level cap will end up using them so they can rank up crafting skills while leveling without gimping their combat effectiveness.

(Speaking of, ZOS, if you add skill line levels to the crown store, please have purchasing them require the character you're purchasing it for to be level 50 to avoid the above P2W issue.)

Elsonso

Other.

Vandril wrote: »

(I've read that crown store exclusive Motifs don't count toward the Master Writ drop chance, though. But take that with a grain of salt; it's hearsay.)

Erm... doesn't that make your assertion that they do count towards the Master Writ drop chance... also hearsay?

Vandril

No it's not P2W.

lordrichter wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

(I've read that crown store exclusive Motifs don't count toward the Master Writ drop chance, though. But take that with a grain of salt; it's hearsay.)

Erm... doesn't that make your assertion that they do count towards the Master Writ drop chance... also hearsay?

Well, sure. Technically, everything we say on these forums or anywhere else is hearsay.

But in all seriousness, there was a lot of research done on this. If I recall, most of the data was posted over on the ESO reddit a long time ago. I don't have time to look for the post now, but if I remember later, I'll do so. I'd appreciate if someone else is willing dig it up, though.

The crown store exclusive motifs were inconclusive due to their being so few of them. Each completed motif increased the master writ bonus, and since there were only 2-3 exclusive motifs the bonus would have been so small it would have been hard to differentiate it from sheer luck unless you had thousands of data points. But it, at the time, LOOKED like they didn't count.

Edit:

A few sources.

Here's Turelus, a Community Ambassador, explaining things that increase Master Writ chances:

Turelus wrote: »

A completed motif book (all pages) for Blacksmithing, Clothing & Woodworking.

Purple (maybe blue) recipes known for provisioning.

I think Alchemy and Enchanting was number of unlocked effects.

And from the Summerset Patch Notes, the following. This implies that all Motifs increase the chance, and that the following were added to the ones that do in this patch.

• The following Motifs will now contribute to your chance to acquire Master Writs:
  
  • Apostle
  • Bloodforge
  • Dreadhorn
  • Ebonshadow
  • Fang Lair
  • Scalecaller
  • Worm Cult

And lastly, here it is straight from a ZOS employee's mouth:

ZOS_Bel_Shezzar wrote: »

Tradeskill mastery (which determines your odds of receiving a master writ from a top tier writ reward box) is meant to imply a long-term dedication to the craft. This varies from tradeskill to tradeskill.

For Blacksmithing, Clothier, and Woodworking, this means motif knowledge and overall completion of trait research. This does not include Crown-exclusive motifs or motifs for the 9 base player races. It focuses on motifs that take some effort to learn – like Xivkyn, or Minotaur, or Celestial.
For Provisioning, this is instead your collection of known purple and gold recipes as they are a strong overall representation of dedication to craft.
With Enchanting, we instead look at the total overall rune word translations you’ve completed on that character.
And with Alchemy, we look at how many reagents from which you’ve completely learned all effects.

Over time, the contributing factors for this may expand as the associated tradeskill mechanics do.

I'm not going to bother finding that reddit post I mentioned. This is more than enough evidence to support my claims.

And I guess that last quote confirms that crown store exclusive motifs don't count.

Eclecticbill

I have no problem with people paying for shortcuts, I've purchased bank/inv/riding lessons but I wouldn't personally buy the skyshards as it's part of my exploration thing I've had for every MMO I've played since Earth and Beyond. No xp for skyshards but you get xp for discovering locations getting to them. The same would apply for me if wayshrines became available for purchase, you do get xp for finding them.

You might say the xp you get from the above paragraph is insignificant but you would be wrong, using event xp boost, scrolls, and a full set of +10% xp gear, and ESO+ boost I have leveled a new character from lvl 1-25 doing nothing but mapping wayshrines and grabbing a few nearby skyshards and I still have the expansions and dlc's to map; have not done a single quest.

Diundriel

i just hope you can buy it with Gold aswell

CassandraGemini

Other.

Eclecticbill wrote: »

You might say the xp you get from the above paragraph is insignificant but you would be wrong, using event xp boost, scrolls, and a full set of +10% xp gear, and ESO+ boost I have leveled a new character from lvl 1-25 doing nothing but mapping wayshrines and grabbing a few nearby skyshards and I still have the expansions and dlc's to map; have not done a single quest.

Except that the Training gear would have had no effect on this whatsoever if you didn't fight any mobs on the side, since that xp bonus only counts for kills and not for discovering stuff.

CassandraGemini

Other.

Diundriel wrote: »

i just hope you can buy it with Gold aswell

Someone in the "sister thread" to this one just pointed out that that will not be the case. Which makes sense, if you think about it, since the unlocking of these skyshards will be bound to your own personal achievements. So why would you be able to gift them to someone who might not have unlocked them?

Of course this means that there will be no option to buy the skill points with gold, not even indirectly. It's going to be cash exclusively. Awesome. (*Irony off*).

rpa

No it's not P2W.

P2W is paying for advantage which is either not available from playing the game or takes unreasonable grind / time.
Unlocking skyshards on zone is not a particulary slow or annoying task (perhaps excluding Craglorn and Cryodiil).
Riding lessons are much more P2W-ish because time gate. Craft bag is P2W because its not available from playing.

However it is pay to not play. Which is not good.

nursingninja

No it's not P2W.

It's not pay to win. Its pay to skip running around again.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Yes it's P2W.

I have been calling for shared Skyshards for some time now I feel like it’s a waste of time to run around the map for the 15th time just for some points but when you charge for it it’s a whole different story.
While yes you have to find the shards first you can pay to power up your new necromancer. Paying for skill points is paying for skill points once you let them sell skill points in crown store it only gets worst.

JJBoomer

No it's not P2W.

I don't consider this pay to win. Because you're paying for something you already had to do before. This is just paying for convenience.

Honestly, having to redo all those grinds are why I don't enjoy playing alts. So I can understand the appeal to someone who has a main that has done everything, then makes an alt and doesn't want to have to do it all over again before they can really start playing the game the way they want to.

Plus this is an optional purchase. it's not being forced on anyone, nor is anyone at a disadvantage for not doing it, unless they think they're level 10 new toon is pvp worthy LMAO. I don't consider this pay to win. It's convenience. It's also a fairly common MMO business strategy. Providing a relief to grinding is a good way to make money from players, that's just the harsh truth.

also just the fact that skyshards can be gotten in game. Every single skyshard is available for free the hard way. Also players that use this token will NOT get skyshards they have yet to grind out. if they did, then THAT would be pay to win. but that's not what happening. it's just skyshards they have already gotten.

Personally, i'm considering doing it. because i want to play alts, but i don't want to have to redo the skyshards every damn time. that's tedious, and not fun. tedium is poison to a game.

Iluvrien

Yes it's P2W.

lordrichter wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

I am not please with this at all. This is no longer pay for convenience, this is Pay To Win.This is adding actual power to your character. They won't be getting any money for this from me, nor anymore sub money.

How the *** does this make you stronger? You clearly lack an understanding for how this works or your just a closed minded sheep.

Have you tried to do a DPS parse without passives and unmorphed skills? Do you not know how the game works?

A more interesting question is whether you have tried to do a DPS parse on a character that does not have the experience required to select the passives and morphed skills? This is the situation we have with the Crown Skyshards. It is like owning 500 gallons of gasoline, but no car to use it in.

This doesn’t agree with my recent experience at all.

I had a character who I’d been neglecting for a couple of years that I recently decided to spend some time with.

In the first case I started him out with normal overland questing. I quickly started to see a deficit forming. Skills, passives and morphs were opening up considerably faster than I was gaining skill points to activate them.

In desperation I started hitting the starting 2 zones in every faction to collect as many skyshards as possible to make up for this.

But even then, with the combat consequent to all that exploration, I found that the situation was much the same. Just to a lesser degree.

Obviously I am not referring to Guild lines that require specific activities, but in terms of normal class/race/weapon lines I found that having access to all of those SP from the beginning would have been an advantage over normal play.

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

Vandril wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

(I've read that crown store exclusive Motifs don't count toward the Master Writ drop chance, though. But take that with a grain of salt; it's hearsay.)

Erm... doesn't that make your assertion that they do count towards the Master Writ drop chance... also hearsay?

Well, sure. Technically, everything we say on these forums or anywhere else is hearsay.

But in all seriousness, there was a lot of research done on this. If I recall, most of the data was posted over on the ESO reddit a long time ago. I don't have time to look for the post now, but if I remember later, I'll do so. I'd appreciate if someone else is willing dig it up, though.

The crown store exclusive motifs were inconclusive due to their being so few of them. Each completed motif increased the master writ bonus, and since there were only 2-3 exclusive motifs the bonus would have been so small it would have been hard to differentiate it from sheer luck unless you had thousands of data points. But it, at the time, LOOKED like they didn't count.

Iluvrien wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

I am not please with this at all. This is no longer pay for convenience, this is Pay To Win.This is adding actual power to your character. They won't be getting any money for this from me, nor anymore sub money.

How the *** does this make you stronger? You clearly lack an understanding for how this works or your just a closed minded sheep.

Have you tried to do a DPS parse without passives and unmorphed skills? Do you not know how the game works?

A more interesting question is whether you have tried to do a DPS parse on a character that does not have the experience required to select the passives and morphed skills? This is the situation we have with the Crown Skyshards. It is like owning 500 gallons of gasoline, but no car to use it in.

This doesn’t agree with my recent experience at all.

I had a character who I’d been neglecting for a couple of years that I recently decided to spend some time with.

In the first case I started him out with normal overland questing. I quickly started to see a deficit forming. Skills, passives and morphs were opening up considerably faster than I was gaining skill points to activate them.

In desperation I started hitting the starting 2 zones in every faction to collect as many skyshards as possible to make up for this.

But even then, with the combat consequent to all that exploration, I found that the situation was much the same. Just to a lesser degree.

Obviously I am not referring to Guild lines that require specific activities, but in terms of normal class/race/weapon lines I found that having access to all of those SP from the beginning would have been an advantage over normal play.

You're seeing exactly what I'm seeing as well. No matter what I do, I'm getting enough XP to unlock my skills far faster than I'm gaining Skill Points to be able to put said skills to good use. I'm specifically farming for Skill Points and still cannot keep up. All current avenues for gaining Skill Points give quite a bit of exp.

Sylvermynx

No it's not P2W.

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Time most certainly is an advantage. It's even specifically listed as an advantage in the definition for P2W which you quoted back to me without internalizing. It's that part in bold which I repeated three times again immediately after the full definition.

I highly disagree - time is not a gameplay advantage at all. How long someone takes to acquire something has no bearing on how effective that thing is in gameplay.

Are we also going to completely ignore the fact that the gathering of the money itself takes time?

Well, even though I don't think this is P2W, and even though I don't have any interest in buying skyshard SPs.... time can be an advantage....

I have nearly unlimited time to play as I'm retired, and this game is my current hobby. Many people grab an hour here and there around work etc.

So - yeah. Time I think can be classed as part of that P2W equation.

Now, that said - my ping is so high I don't ever do group content, and really can't fight my way out of a wet paper bag. So for me it's not the advantage it could be for someone with "real broadband". Too bad I can't get husband to agree to me leasing a T1.... 'cause I'd sure love to play this game the way others do!

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

This thread isn't dying down, is it? *grabs a stick*

mairwen85

Other.

Ertosi wrote: »

This thread isn't dying down, is it? *grabs a stick*

It was on the 3rd page until your comment