Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

kind_hero

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Other games have account shared achievements, also ESO has gear, outfits and dyes account wide, so skyshards will not be something exceptional. The issue here is that you have to pay if you want this shortcut. Also there will be a matter of the cost too, but I think this is more good than bad. Some skyshards are hard to farm, like Cyrodiil.

I got ALL skyshards in the game on my main char, so I don't really want to do that again. Same with motif knowledge or the lore books or the Monster Hunter kills (just 3 examples that came through my mind).

Problem is, it's pretty different and they aren't really comparable. It makes sense for gear, outfits, and dyes to be account wide because it makes sense that your characters could easily share those. It makes sense for CP to be shared because it was specifically designed to be an account wide system and a primary means of an account's vertical progression at higher levels.

It does not make sense for skyshards to be account wide. One character finding a skyshard shouldn't mean that all of your other characters gain their power as well. This is especially true as they give Skill Points, which those other characters haven't earned. The same would hold true for achievements. Finishing vMA on one character doesn't mean all of your other characters should be able to share in the achievement; they haven't earned it. Again, the same holds true for Skill Lines. Just because one of your characters have joined a guild and ran all of their errands to progress doesn't mean squat for your other characters; they still need to do the same.

Look, you can buy style books from the crown store for motifs that are quite hard to get, or expensive in game, like Welkynar. Isn't that pay 2 win? You will say it is just cosmetics, which is true, but it is a shortcut, and adds to your chance of getting better writs, which in time adds to more in game gold, and real power.

Skyshards do not really offer power. It allows you to unlock skills faster, but we are talking about things that you have already done, not like motifs where you are basically cheating your way towards grand master crafter. How does this affect you? With skyshards none at all, because it is something already earned, but with motifs it is not the same, some are farming motifs or spending tons of gold to complete their collection, while others just use the cash shop and skip all that effort. And I repeat.. motifs are not just cosmetics, motif knowledge adds to your ability to make more money in game.

I have only 3 chars which are well developed, but I do not want to create an other because I just don't want to collect skyshards and guilds rep a 4th time... I prefer doing new content or stuff that I missed, not wasting my playtime with the same chore.

I agree with you that some titles should not be shared, also with some guild skill lines, your point is fine.

thedude33

No it's not P2W.

For the life of me, I don't understand why that triggers some people so much. I know the definition of P2W, and I have played games that are truly P2W money pits. Shameless money pits. When rich Asian kids are paying thousands a month to 'win'.

I don't actually believe all those that say it's P2W actually believe it. I think they are more offended by the fact that ZoS will make some money doing this. As someone earlier here said ... yes, it's P2W, pay your money and ZoS wins.

I want ZoS to win. I want it to be viable that a developer can make a great game and also get paid. Making a profit means more developers are apt to make other games. Which means we the consumer wins.

Take a minute and do some math. How much a month you pay and how many hours a month you play. Compare it with how much coffee costs each morning. How much a movie costs. A night at the pub. A dinner out. Weekend getaway. Cell phone. etc etc

The ROI is unbelievable compared to anything else.

The ironic thing is the vast majority of the people complaining about this being P2W would be like a fat kid on a smartie jumping on the chance to let their Alts get credit for Shards they have previously collected on their mains. They see no problem with it. Yet soon as it is suggested there will be a cost? All hell breaks loose with claims of P2W.

This is no different than food delivery services like Door dash, Grub Hub or Seamless. Rather than get in your car and go get food, you order it and pay a fee to a delivery service to bring it to you. It's simple convenience. That's it.

themaddaedra

No it's not P2W.

It's defo not p2w as you still need to do the achievement at least once. Must also remember that you can actually buy crowns for gold.

But it's pretty low as this explains why ZOS would never make achievements account-wide or why they never bring class change tokens. They simply will monetize it as hard as it goes and sell us everything bit by bit.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

Whatever it is, I am cancelling my sub. Switching back to WoW became a possible option again. And that whole stream was borderline insulting: Dragons? DRAAAGOOONS! My leg tattoo takes time. BtwCrownsforGuilds&Skyhards. Did I say draaagooons? It leaves a bitter taste.

gresiac

Yes it's P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

Whatever it is, I am cancelling my sub. Switching back to WoW became a possible option again. And that whole stream was borderline insulting: Dragons? DRAAAGOOONS! My leg tattoo takes time. BtwCrownsforGuilds&Skyhards. Did I say draaagooons? It leaves a bitter taste.

Wow is a really bad game, they are milking the cow since after wrath of the lich king

tim99

Other.

its not pay2win, but its really a bad character move to put it in the crown store and offer it for real money only.

it should be either the way it was, or you get it for free (so account wide skyshards, which i dont like as well)

but for real money its the worst way.

they make so much money already, tce had to limit the selling cause there were so many crate buyers, this really shouldnt be in crown store.

the mage guild can offer the pack to buy for ingame gold, if its really nessessaray...

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

gresiac wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Whatever it is, I am cancelling my sub. Switching back to WoW became a possible option again. And that whole stream was borderline insulting: Dragons? DRAAAGOOONS! My leg tattoo takes time. BtwCrownsforGuilds&Skyhards. Did I say draaagooons? It leaves a bitter taste.

Wow is a really bad game, they are milking the cow since after wrath of the lich king

But here, especially after that announcement, I feel milked. Broken servers, broken performance and broken grinds. Non-functioning mechanics, unplayable PvP. All those things I could look past, but not after the road they're going down. It's not worth it anymore.

FierceSam

Yes it's P2W.

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

This game has been sliding into p2w gradually for a long time now.

You cannot compete with someone on a single target fight with a new monster set such as Zaan in terms of DPS, you can get close but we all know this is the best single target dps monster set. You can't cast a (free) stronger heal and purge in Cyrodil while on a DPS character without an Earthgore set. Just as you can't really do the insane 'power creep' dps that everyone is flinging about these days without new trial gear (relequen, siroria, etc.) All of these are locked behind paywalls. You can try to put whatever pretty little mental bow on it you want to justify it in your own head but it is still locked behind a purchase.

Skyshards however.. pale in comparison in my eyes, its not REALLY p2w but now it gives access to whales to just crank out an alt anytime they feel like it and not have to invest the time into it that everyone else will and dive right into the end game or pvp content with it. So here we are.. I already know what will happen, there will be CP810 maxed out Necromancers on Day 1 who only need to obtain Lorebooks, Fighters guild, and Psijic skills. With the profits on skyshards Zo$ will probably do Lorebooks next.

Hey Caligamy,

While I agree with your conclusion re this rancid skyshard cash grab, I am going to call you on the monster sets. First, paying for the game (whether base game or DLC) is NOT P2W. The game is NOT F2P, it’s a proper, grown up commercial gaming product. Second, as someone who does not have the DLC dungeons, and bought his many Earthgore hats via the Golden, with in game gold, I’m telling you you don’t need to pay any extra cash to get them. And for 99% of players, it will not be the difference between success and failure.

If ZOS think that making skyshard advancement (and mages guild achievements or horse training etc) accountwide is a good thing, then they should implement it as a free QoL. So it works for everyone

Selling advancement in the game for cash, on the other hand, is the very definition of P2W. It will skew the playerbase and reward idle rich incompetents who don’t want to play the game. It is an insult to existing players and a danger to the game.

Worse still, it will encourage ZOS to continue to develop quest lines as arse-numbingly tedious as the Psijiic Order one, as upping the tedium and grind will actually benefit their bottom line.

You want to spend cash on houses, mounts, collectibles that improve your gaming experience, be my guest, I know I’ve done that. You spend a single red cent on this filth and you will be damning us all.

AbysmalGhul

No it's not P2W.

I don't it's a pay to win situation. I think it's a pay to hurry up the process situation.

I would totally buy a mage's guild and psijic skill line unlock in a heart beat.

Jhalin

Yes it's P2W.

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

I don't it's a pay to win situation. I think it's a pay to hurry up the process situation.

I would totally buy a mage's guild and psijic skill line unlock in a heart beat.

You are part of the problem

Stop rewarding game companies for designing their games in ways that “gently coerce” people into spending money instead of playing

AbysmalGhul

No it's not P2W.

Jhalin wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

I don't it's a pay to win situation. I think it's a pay to hurry up the process situation.

I would totally buy a mage's guild and psijic skill line unlock in a heart beat.

You are part of the problem

Stop rewarding game companies for designing their games in ways that “gently coerce” people into spending money instead of playing

I would love to be part of the problem. I would love to be part of a quadrple problem Mages/Psijiic/Shards/Undaunted all rolled into 1 package *dreams of convenience*

Tandor

No it's not P2W.

dbgager wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

DCUO did this with Skill Points. It then led to them selling artifact xp which is directly tied to power.

Interesting fact.
I won't be surprised if ESO will go full F2P in the next 3 months to 1 year.
F2P games model involves many micro transactions which are P2W or borderline P2W, so it makes sense ZOS is preparing the game to this transition.

I don't see how they could ever go full FTP. With the infinite crafting bag and DLC content all tied to a sub. How could they end that. What would happen to all the people who sub for that reason. What would happen to the 1000s of crafting components they have.

I don't think they would go full FTP in the sense of dropping subscriptions, that would be commercial suicide. I do think, however, that the time will come when it will make commercial sense to switch from BTP +sub to FTP +sub. in other words, the base game will be downloadable for free.

Merlight

thedude33 wrote: »

I want ZoS to win. I want it to be viable that a developer can make a great game and also get paid. Making a profit means more developers are apt to make other games. Which means we the consumer wins.

Emphasis mine. It's important that they only get paid for great games. If game developers conclude that the most efficient method of turning a profit is to make a game packed with paywalled power, gambling boxes, frustrating gameplay paired with convenience (aka pain relief) in cash shop, the consumer loses.

maybe they already have

Hand_Bacon

No it's not P2W.

In no way, shape, or form.

It seems that whenever a company tries to practice capitalism it gets labeled as something else simply due to the fact some people think capitalism is a boogie man. It doesn't fit the definition or nuance of P2W.

Merlight

Ertosi wrote: »

There's one scenario I haven't seen brought up in which buying skyshards would give a huge advantage: Cyrodiil's Below Level 50 Campaign, Kyne.

Those that buy Skill Points through Skyshard Bundles would have a distinctly higher Skill Point/Level ratio and would be able to stay within the campaign longer before being forced out from hitting level 50.

Skyshards are not a big issue in Kyne (at least not with addons). Abilities/passives take quite a lot of skill line exp to unlock. You can get a workable number of skill points (to put in whatever you unlock) just gathering overland skyshards in your alliance, that alone shouldn't take you beyond level 15. Alliance ranks also give skill points, the first few are quick to get.

Guild skill lines, on the other hand, buying those levelled upfront is bonkers.

ErMurazor

Whats so hard to understand?!? P2W = With real money buy things you cant get in game.

Thus skyshards, xp scrolls, horsetraining and so on are just timesavers NOT P2W

Which i gladly pay for since i have limited time to play and when i play i want to focus on actually playing as much as possible and grinding as little as possible

Merlight

ErMurazor wrote: »

Whats so hard to understand?!? P2W = With real money buy things you cant get in game.

Thus skyshards, xp scrolls, horsetraining and so on are just timesavers NOT P2W

I don't think you understand your own definition of P2W. Can you get instant 60 horsetraining for 0 gold in game? Can you get 5 skill points instantly in game?

Tandor

No it's not P2W.

Merlight wrote: »

ErMurazor wrote: »

Whats so hard to understand?!? P2W = With real money buy things you cant get in game.

Thus skyshards, xp scrolls, horsetraining and so on are just timesavers NOT P2W

I don't think you understand your own definition of P2W. Can you get instant 60 horsetraining for 0 gold in game? Can you get 5 skill points instantly in game?

No indeed, but you can get them over time so the ability to buy them instantly is purely a matter of convenience. I'm not defending it, because it's a crap approach to playing the game, but it doesn't enable you to "win" the game by buying skyshards over my unlocking them the traditional way. It would only be P2W if buying the 16 skyshards unlock in a zone through the Crown Store came with a couple of extra bonus skyshard unlocks that weren't available in the game.

inationxi

Yes it's P2W.

I am cancelling my sub, looked forward to coming back but ZOS and their shady money grabbing ways. Cya

Elsonso

Other.

Ertosi wrote: »

There's one scenario I haven't seen brought up in which buying skyshards would give a huge advantage: Cyrodiil's Below Level 50 Campaign, Kyne.

Those that buy Skill Points through Skyshard Bundles would have a distinctly higher Skill Point/Level ratio and would be able to stay within the campaign longer before being forced out from hitting level 50.

This is due to every other means of getting Skill Points giving players lots of experience (main story and faction quests, 4-player dungeons, public dungeons, skyshards [location discovery experience adds up fast], alliance war rank). Anyone gaining Skill Points the old fashioned way would automatically have quite a bit more experience, thus be higher level, and eventually no longer able to join the campaign.

Skill point-to-Level ratio does not determine winning in this game.

In your scenario, the skill points are unusable until the character catches up with the others in experience. If you need to have "X" level in a skill line to unlock a skill, or "X" progression in a skill to unlock an advancement or morph, you cannot get that until you meet those criteria.

Ertosi wrote: »

And for those about to argue about needing that experience anyways to level their Skills... First, we all know that's going to be the next thing in the cash shop. Second, it doesn't stop them from having bought a significant advantage.

Slippery slope, yes. This started when they put XP boosters and Skill lines into the Crown Store. My concern is that ZOS is constantly toying with how far they can go with "convenience", but that concern is tempered by the fact that they have not even announced that this is a potential direction.

As for the "significant advantage", that really depends on your perspective. It is the uncommon character in my stable that has actually allocated all the skill points that they have earned. I don't think any of my active alts have all skill points assigned. After a certain level, somewhere around 25 or 30, I stop paying close attention to them. Eventually, what I do is some "garbage collection" and pay gold to get a refund on all my skill points and then allocate them where I want them to be. After that is done, I always have points left over. In my case, do I get a significant advantage in the game from having a larger pool of unused skill points?

Ertosi wrote: »

Add that to today's stream where ZOS said purchases are going to be on a per-character basis, not per-account and it starts to get real nasty. And yes, yes, yes, I know this is all conjecture at this point, but it's still a good place to look because it seems like it puts us in the ballpark for what to expect.

Emphasis mine. I don't think it is conjecture. I think it is design. It is likely going to be expensive, but I think it is the best method for doing it. This allows a player to take both roads, selectively. They can make an alt and buy the skyshards for that alt. If, later, they decide they want to run through the game and collect them, they simply don't buy them for that alt. It is more flexible. It is the easiest, and most reliable, way to allow both paths.

Of course, the unknown here is "how much"? I think the answer to that will be set by how much ZOS wants to preserve the in-game method of getting the Skyshards. If it is too low, many people will just bypass that whole part of the game. If it is too high, few will want to bypass it. They have said that they want people go get out into the world, and Skyshards are big part of them.

Ertosi wrote: »

Anybody remember how additional Outfit Slots work? At 1500 crowns a slot, it's been calculated that unlocking every slot for all of their characters will cost a player about $1200 before tax. And remember, there are just 9 additional Outfit Slots to unlock for each character.

The only reason that I have come up with for why they did it that way is that Outfit Slots can potentially devalue Crown Costumes, so they set the overall cost high to offset that. I cannot see any game play reason, or any reason to do with overall performance of the game, although there might be something hidden in there.

In any case, I think we are talking about completely different lines of reasoning regarding the potential pricing of Skyshards.

Facefister wrote: »

Whatever it is, I am cancelling my sub. Switching back to WoW became a possible option again. And that whole stream was borderline insulting: Dragons? DRAAAGOOONS! My leg tattoo takes time. BtwCrownsforGuilds&Skyhards. Did I say draaagooons? It leaves a bitter taste.

More on the subject of this thread, Blizzard has been offering outright level boosts in their store for years, and those come with all the trimmings, including level-appropriate gear. The character can walk out the door, equip the gear, get all their bars aligned, and jump into the game. Of course, they have to wait 24 hours to get into a dungeon or raid, but that isn't really anything.

This soured me considerably on WoW, and is part of the reason why I left and never went back. Why bother playing the game when you can just toss $60 at the Studio and bypass 110 levels (currently) of game play? Oh, and expansions come with one of these tokens for free. WTH?

ZOS isn't even talking about doing anything of this sort.

thedude33

No it's not P2W.

Merlight wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

I want ZoS to win. I want it to be viable that a developer can make a great game and also get paid. Making a profit means more developers are apt to make other games. Which means we the consumer wins.

Emphasis mine. It's important that they only get paid for great games. If game developers conclude that the most efficient method of turning a profit is to make a game packed with paywalled power, gambling boxes, frustrating gameplay paired with convenience (aka pain relief) in cash shop, the consumer loses.

maybe they already have

Well, no one twists our arm to play a game. We either like or we don't. If the game was priced at $1,000, no matter how good, likely wouldn't do well. I won't play a game that's P2W. Already done it once and won't do it again.

Hand_Bacon

No it's not P2W.

Do people know they can buy crowns with in game gold?

CassandraGemini

Other.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Do people know they can buy crowns with in game gold?

Yeah, but do you know the rate that is usually charged for them? It's mostly 130 - 150 gold per crown. Now let's be generous and say it would cost 5000 crowns for all the skyshards for one character (which I don't believe in the slightest, but just for the sake of argument), and you could buy crowns for 130 a piece. That would make 650000 gold for just that one character.

To put that in perspective: In all the time I've been playing (which is around 5 months by now, but mostly no more than about 2 hours a day), I haven't even been close to having such an amount of gold at one given time, let alone the will to spend it all at once. And since this "offer", if we want to call it that, will probably be used by many people like me, who don't have the time or the patience to go skyshard hunting with every alt, I would assume, their financial in-game situation is likely not much better than mine. So I really don't think that buying the amount of crowns that this is going to cost will be much of an option.

mairwen85

Other.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Do people know they can buy crowns with in game gold?

They do... But for some people that is P2W too because it's the same as buying gold for crowns. According to this exchange a few pages back:

mairwen85 wrote: »

todokete wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

todokete wrote: »

Game was already p2w with the gifting update

This confuses me. Please explain because I feel like I'm missing something now. Even if there were totally OP items in the crown store, gifting them would be paying for others to win... What in the store right now allows me to pay for another player to have an advantage over other players that I don't gift the same to?

you can buy gold

Ok... and how is that P2W? I can earn gold too by selling things, and just playing the game. What can I do with that gold for crowns I couldn't do otherwise? I'm not arguing with you -- I just want to understand your position on this.

My position:

If you're saying that resale/gifting of crown items for in-game currency is P2W because it gives the gifting player an unfair advantage on being able to spend more in-game currency on in-game acquired items from an in-game vendor or guild trader, I disagree with your definition. If you're alluding to something else, I'm interested to hear how players are gaming/exploiting this system for advantages they could otherwise not obtain.

@CassandraGemini I usually play an hour or 2 a day on xbox, just 3 normal pledges is one hour = 20k from selling dungeon junk and gold pick ups. That idealised 650k you suggest is approx 32 days, or just over 1 month. If you do a delve or dome other content in your extra hour, you can easily make it and more in a few weeks.

Changed to pc just shy of a month ago, hit cp300 recently, have 80 skill points, play 2 hours daily, banked over 100k. Its easier to make money at max cp, just as easy, but slower with more expenses for new characters. Not impossible.

jircris11

No it's not P2W.

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

I am not please with this at all. This is no longer pay for convenience, this is Pay To Win.This is adding actual power to your character. They won't be getting any money for this from me, nor anymore sub money.

How the *** does this make you stronger? You clearly lack an understanding for how this works or your just a closed minded sheep.

Austinseph1

Paying for convenience is not pay to win. There is no reason somebody that paid for the skyshards they already collected has an advantage over the person that collected them does. It’s lazy yes, but P2W? It would be childish to say so.

ManwithBeard9

Yes it's P2W.

jircris11 wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

I am not please with this at all. This is no longer pay for convenience, this is Pay To Win.This is adding actual power to your character. They won't be getting any money for this from me, nor anymore sub money.

How the *** does this make you stronger? You clearly lack an understanding for how this works or your just a closed minded sheep.

Have you tried to do a DPS parse without passives and unmorphed skills? Do you not know how the game works?

BrightOblivion

No it's not P2W.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Do people know they can buy crowns with in game gold?

Except they already said in the stream yesterday that the skyshard packs won't be giftable.

That said, this isn't P2W. Another disappointing cash grab, but not P2W.

Pay-to-win is something like ES:Blades, which offers stronger weapons and armor that are only available in the cash shop.

mairwen85

Other.

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

I am not please with this at all. This is no longer pay for convenience, this is Pay To Win.This is adding actual power to your character. They won't be getting any money for this from me, nor anymore sub money.

How the *** does this make you stronger? You clearly lack an understanding for how this works or your just a closed minded sheep.

Have you tried to do a DPS parse without passives and unmorphed skills? Do you not know how the game works?

But you can morph and invest in skills without crown purchase. There are more skillpoints available in game than just those from skyshards. If they were selling more in store than acquurable from play, this argument holds water... They aren't, so the point is moot. Same reason they aren't giftable.

Numerikuu

Yes it's P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

The idea itself, skipping stuff which you've done several times, isn't bad. The bad thing is to monetize every phase and step of it instead of putting it into the game for everyone. This is a monetized QoL patch.

All these people begging for monetized QoL things like this on the thread don't seem to realize the doom they're bringing to this game by allowing such greedy practices. Every MMO I've played where this eventually happened fast became a F2P, monetized to hell and beyond, bot and hack infested flaming garbage heap.

I was hoping TES/ESO wouldn't go down that route, but it's getting mighty hard to ignore all these red flags.