Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

MooseKnuckles88

Yes it's P2W.

IMHO, call it what you want, but I can't see how it's not p2w. You make a character, go to crown store and 'pay' x crown amount in exchange for skyshards(skills which aid your character). Nothing to be ashamed about if you'll be exploiting it, but it's still p2w. Just how I see it.

Universe

Yes it's P2W.

It's not a question if it is P2W or not, it is more of a question if it is an extremely helpful P2W or just P2W mostly for convenience.
In my opinion it is both.
I can guarantee that when ZOS will publish they plan to release the Mages and Fighters guilds skill lines in the crown store, most forum members will turn a blind eye and let it slide because they will want the convenience for using it.
Same for the Undaunted skill line.
It is a bit sad to see that when players are offered to choose between easy mode and saying "Yes it's P2W, no thanks", they will often go for the easy mode.
Easy mode is terrible in any game, it lowers the overall skill needed and the playtime needed to accomplish anything...
In single player TES games there is the console which can give the player special powers, here it can be the crown store one day.
Let's not implement a crown store version of the single player console here, thanks.

GaldorP

Other.

When you're at CP cap, Undaunted Rank 10, have most of the gear sets, optional skill lines, all Points of Interest, dungeon completions and other achievements you want, then one of the few ways to still get a feeling of progress by doing solo content in ESO is to make gold - to buy houses, furniture items, gear upgrades, or simply to get richer and hoard all your gold.

One of the most if not the most time-efficient way to make gold and gain legendary upgrade materials without relying on anyone else, is to do crafting writs every day, on as many characters as possible.

What keeps a lot of players from doing max level crafting writs on many characters is the the relatively large time-investment that is initially needed on each character to get the required skill points to learn all crafting skills. A large part of that time-investment is collecting skyshards (there are other efficient ways to gain skill points like the one-time dungeon completion quests in group dungeons, the main quest lines in each zone, early PvP ranks, group events in Public dungeons, etc. but without collecting skyshards it would take a long time or may not even be possible to learn all crafting skills on a new character).

Being able to buy all skyshards on alts instead of having to collect them lets players skip many hours of gameplay that were previously required to get access to a very rewarding (though very boring) part of endgame progress. This new microstransaction offer devaluates playing the game to earn intrasystem rewards. The more parts of an MMORPG are devaluated by pay to skip mechanics, the less meaningful it will ultimately feel to play the game.

Depriving too many parts of a game of their meaning is an approach that has accelerated the downfall of many a MMORPG, in the past. Maybe ESO has enough single-player one-time completion content updates that players will buy anyway, so it won't matter for this game, but true MMORPG fans want to earn progress by playing the game and they don't like when it's given to them for free or can be bought for real money instead. In the long run, changes like this one might ultimatelly cause more financial harm than they provide additional income, when they lead to more players leaving the game.

As for the question asked in the poll, P2W is just a label. There are many monetization schemes in MMORPGs that I wouldn't call P2W, but I still don't like them as they undermine important parts of the game. Calling only monetization methods that give some players a very obvious advantage over others in a direct competition "P2W" and claiming that there is nothing to worry about when that is not the case, is a reductionist view, in my opinion, and ignores many problematic effects that come with new monetization methods. This one with the skyshards, I'd probably label pay to skip, pay to cheat, or simply pay to not play.

todokete

Yes it's P2W.

It is 100% p2w. Laughing because they advertise their cash shop as cosmetics only

xXSOEXx

No it's not P2W.

✭
I see almost everybody fighting over the P2W Issue but u guys are failing to see that not even ZOS want 'THIS' to be a pay to win thing. After all if u read the notes it actually states that the only way to purchase this Skyshard packs is to actually unlock them first. My point is that ur going to pay for something u unlocked first not the other way around. Ur not gonna skip anything by buying this because u already did the exploration before buying the pack this is just a easier way to get those skill points without having to do that all over again. If they do other packs like a wayshrine pack it would be the same too explore first and then u get to unlock them with crowns on another toon. Simple.✌🏽🙂

LapisLazuli99

No it's not P2W.

I don't think its pay to win if I'm paying to save time on an achievement I already have. I only have one character because I don't have time to support multiple end game slots as is so stuff like this might give me means to do just that.

Goregrinder

What exactly are you "winning" when you unlock it? Extra time on your hands?

Mr_Walker

Goregrinder wrote: »

What exactly are you "winning" when you unlock it? Extra time on your hands?

I wouldn't bother, most people have no idea what p2w is and are just inventing their own definitions to support their decisions.

ItsNebula

Yes it's P2W.

Thats easy. Its P2W. Youre paying to skip a feature in the game.

What is Pay To Win? "In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. ... Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics..."

There you go! In this case, youre paying to skip the progress of unlocking SP in game.

If you think its not P2W, you clearly dont know what P2W is, you're brand new to gaming.. or your IQ is simply lower than 90.

TLDR; Its P2W, cant argue against that.

ItsNebula

Yes it's P2W.

And to add on to my previous comment; theres a reason ESO is a joke of a game. Everything is easy to "earn".
Personally, i can make a toon at 12pm. Level 3.. by 8-9pm, he'll be max level, and fully geared. With another 1-2 hours of "grinding" ill be able to have more than enough SP for my needed passives, skills and there morphs.

It literally takes less than 3 days (Less than 1 day if you dont stop) to go from a fresh new toon, to max level (lvl wise, not CP) with BiS gear for PvE or "BiS" build for PvP.

ZOS is just making ESO easier and easier, the players in ESO are (imo) just downright lazy in game. Farming for new items, or items earned on a different character is half the point of an MMO. WoW (i fully believe) doesnt get many new players because people just want to get handed that max level, or the BiS gear, SP, Talents, enchants, stats etc. ESO gets plenty of new players because its essentially a "Hey, come get max level in about 8 hours if you dont stop grinding!" and once you get the BiS for PvE on a stam or mag toon, you have BiS for PvE on EVERY stam or mag toon.. same goes for PvP.

ZOS is literally just laughing at the community because 90% of the players are to blind to realize that ZOS doesnt care about the game itself, they just want the money from the players.. literally milking the community like its a barn full of cows. Why do you think theyre still bugs from Beta? Or why the servers are still a** after all these years? Why do you think theyre still lots of visual bugs after MANY months of being an issue? A company like Blizzard, Square Enix, Jagex, ArenaNet etc will have minor and major bugs / issues fixed in a heart beat.. ZOS? Theyll wait 5 years while milking the community.

Again this is just my opinion.. i prefer to actually grind things out, as its what MAKES an MMORPG a MMORPG..

TLDR; ESO is a game for lazy gamers at this point. ZOS is just milking the community and 90% of them are to blind to realize it.

Edit; Grammar.

Casterial

No it's not P2W.

Pay to win is gear that gives you advances on your opponent.

ItsNebula

Yes it's P2W.

Casterial wrote: »

Pay to win is gear that gives you advances on your opponent.

"In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. ... Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.."

Not just that, bud.

Casterial

No it's not P2W.

ItsNebula wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Pay to win is gear that gives you advances on your opponent.

"In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. ... Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.."

Not just that, bud.

Having come from an EXTREME pay to win, this game is no where near pay to win. When you have to pay to level up, or pay to pvp let me know.

I never did any PVE and I rock game in PVP

DemonDruaga

No it's not P2W.

You won't do more dmg than me just because of the purchase. So I don't see it as pay to win.
Already wasted weeks of my life grinding out skyshards for multiple toons anyway, no need to force others into it aswell.

sionIV

Yes it's P2W.

It is P2W, and there is no arguing that. You can argue how harmful it will be to the game.

Let's take a look at an example here. We have two people who have had an identical progress, and they just hit level 50.

Player1: Has enough skills to get the class skills he is using in his build, and some of the class passive skills.

Player2: Has every skill his build requires, all of the passives for his class, all of the relevant passives for armors and weapons, and some of the guild/PvP passives.

Now tell me with a straight face, that player2 won't have a higher chance of winning if the two of them have equal skill and fight each other in Cyrodiil. Some people use the false argument "But... Player 1 can get them too if he spends some time in game!", but the same can be said about gear. Player2 buys a full legendary gear set in the crown store and then you can use the same false argument "But... Player 1 can get them too...". Both gear and skyshards serve the same purpose, they strengthen your character, gear is just a bigger upgrade.

Will the character get stronger from buying skyshards in the crown store? YES. It's not a question of time, or that everyone can get it, because the same can be said for gear, and I highly doubt anyone here will try to argue for gear in the crownstore not being P2W.

DemonDruaga wrote: »

You won't do more dmg than me just because of the purchase. So I don't see it as pay to win.
Already wasted weeks of my life grinding out skyshards for multiple toons anyway, no need to force others into it aswell.

You won't do more dmg than me just because of the purchase (a full legendary gear set). So I don't see it as pay to win. I already have a legendary set, so it won't make him stronger than me, so it can't possible be P2W. I hope you can see the holes in your argument. You shouldn't focus on YOU, or someone that has already acquired the skyshards/gear. You should compare two people with identical progress, and then you insert the purchase, do they still have the same strength? No.

Edited: Before anyone pulls the card "Gear costs money, skyshards are for free" I want to remind you that time=gold in ESO. If it takes you 3 minutes to get to a skyshard (which is highly unlikely, taking into consideration travel times and loading screens), it would still take you 22 hours to get all skyshards in the game. You can get enough money/material to fully gold a gear (minus jewelry) during the same time. 40+ hours for all skyshards in the game (without wayshrines) would be a more realistic estimation.

GarnetFire17

Not having to redo tedious things you have already done is not p2w.

Anotherone773

No it's not P2W.

Something is only P2W if the only way it can be obtained is with a cash purchase.

DemonDruaga

No it's not P2W.

sionIV wrote: »

It is P2W, and there is no arguing that. You can argue how harmful it will be to the game.

Let's take a look at an example here. We have two people who have had an identical progress, and they just hit level 50.

Player1: Has enough skills to get the class skills he is using in his build, and some of the class passive skills.

Player2: Has every skill his build requires, all of the passives for his class, all of the relevant passives for armors and weapons, and some of the guild/PvP passives.

Now tell me with a straight face, that player2 won't have a higher chance of winning if the two of them have equal skill and fight each other in Cyrodiil. Some people use the false argument "But... Player 1 can get them too if he spends some time in game!", but the same can be said about gear. Player2 buys a full legendary gear set in the crown store and then you can use the same false argument "But... Player 1 can get them too...". Both gear and skyshards serve the same purpose, they strengthen your character, gear is just a bigger upgrade.

Will the character get stronger from buying skyshards in the crown store? YES. It's not a question of time, or that everyone can get it, because the same can be said for gear, and I highly doubt anyone here will try to argue for gear in the crownstore not being P2W.

DemonDruaga wrote: »

You won't do more dmg than me just because of the purchase. So I don't see it as pay to win.
Already wasted weeks of my life grinding out skyshards for multiple toons anyway, no need to force others into it aswell.

You won't do more dmg than me just because of the purchase (a full legendary gear set). So I don't see it as pay to win. I already have a legendary set, so it won't make him stronger than me, so it can't possible be P2W. I hope you can see the holes in your argument. You shouldn't focus on YOU, or someone that has already acquired the skyshards/gear. You should compare two people with identical progress, and then you insert the purchase, do they still have the same strength? No.

Edited: Before anyone pulls the card "Gear costs money, skyshards are for free" I want to remind you that time=gold in ESO. If it takes you 3 minutes to get to a skyshard (which is highly unlikely, taking into consideration travel times and loading screens), it would still take you 22 hours to get all skyshards in the game. You can get enough money/material to fully gold a gear (minus jewelry) during the same time. 40+ hours for all skyshards in the game (without wayshrines) would be a more realistic estimation.

I really don't care about it. Why should I?
Even if I start a new toon today and my friend does it too.
I farm all the shards and he just buys everything. Sure he can max out his power a couple days earlier, while I still am grinding. So he saved some time trough money, nothing else. That doesn't equal power imho.

Acharnor

No it's not P2W.

I don't think it is pay to win at all. You have already found them, its a nice time saver for those who want to spend the money and raise their alts up quicker. Similar to Champion Points. Should we have to earn those on each character? That is more of a game changer than skyshards I say.

GarnetFire17

we're about to have 18 possible character slots. I think its necessary to a least give people the option that want to have so many characters a means to not have do it over and over and over when you have already done it. I get that people don't want to have to pay extra for it. Buts farming skill points is not that bad is this game.

Kel

Yes it's P2W.

xXSOEXx wrote: »

✭
I see almost everybody fighting over the P2W Issue but u guys are failing to see that not even ZOS want 'THIS' to be a pay to win thing. After all if u read the notes it actually states that the only way to purchase this Skyshard packs is to actually unlock them first. My point is that ur going to pay for something u unlocked first not the other way around. Ur not gonna skip anything by buying this because u already did the exploration before buying the pack this is just a easier way to get those skill points without having to do that all over again. If they do other packs like a wayshrine pack it would be the same too explore first and then u get to unlock them with crowns on another toon. Simple.✌🏽🙂

Then why do I have to pay for it. I already put the work in to unlock them, as you say...then I have to further pay for it?

Something seems off here. I have to work for it, then pay?
Seems shady af

Arrodisia

No it's not P2W.

This is, definitely, not Pay2Win imo.

Can the skyshards still be obtained, and used without money in the game? Yes
Can those players obtain more skyshard points in total, than someone who doesn't pay for the unlock? No.
Do they get a better gear tier because of it? No.

The players already have to unlock them on one character before they can even buy it, which is imho fair enough.
This doesn't give anyone more than what is already achievable in game without money. The only thing bugging me about this is,(if I didn't miss something) I don't see mention of an option for players to buy this unlock in game for gold as well. Other than that, I don't see an issue here.

redlink1979

No it's not P2W.

No. It's paying for being lazy. Shards aren't hard to get. You can easily pick them up.

Goregrinder

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

What exactly are you "winning" when you unlock it? Extra time on your hands?

I wouldn't bother, most people have no idea what p2w is and are just inventing their own definitions to support their decisions.

I know..."OMG They are charging REAL money for that fedora??? Pay2WIN........greedy ZOS...." lol

Goregrinder

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Something is only P2W if the only way it can be obtained is with a cash purchase.

THANK YOU!......Jesus, I've been trying to explain this since 2012.....you can pay to skip content, or you can pay to automatically win. Paying for shards does not automatically mean you win lol.

Fusozay

No it's not P2W.

sionIV wrote: »

Player2 buys a full legendary gear set in the crown store

WAT????? did i miss something and ZOS sell gear at the crown store??? this is really p2w.

Fusozay

No it's not P2W.

sionIV wrote: »

It is P2W, and there is no arguing that. You can argue how harmful it will be to the game.

Let's take a look at an example here. We have two people who have had an identical progress, and they just hit level 50.

Player1: Has enough skills to get the class skills he is using in his build, and some of the class passive skills.

Player2: Has every skill his build requires, all of the passives for his class, all of the relevant passives for armors and weapons, and some of the guild/PvP passives.

wrong. Player2 will have same skillpoints, he didnot take skyshards on location, so not obtain SP. and shop didnon open new skyshards.

Nimrhys

No it's not P2W.

No, it’s pay for convenience. If it was P2W then it would be the only way of getting them.

Jhalin

Yes it's P2W.

Fusozay wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

It is P2W, and there is no arguing that. You can argue how harmful it will be to the game.

Let's take a look at an example here. We have two people who have had an identical progress, and they just hit level 50.

Player1: Has enough skills to get the class skills he is using in his build, and some of the class passive skills.

Player2: Has every skill his build requires, all of the passives for his class, all of the relevant passives for armors and weapons, and some of the guild/PvP passives.

wrong. Player2 will have same skillpoints, he didnot take skyshards on location, so not obtain SP. and shop didnon open new skyshards.

Wrong. Progress is character based in ESO for all thing besides CP

Player1 makes a Necro and begins to level without paying, hits level 50 with an alright amount of skillpoints that give them a mostly complete build

Player2 makes a Necro and pays for 200 of the skillpoints their main earned, unlocks every passive as it becomes available, and has more than enough skillpoints for flex skills


It’s the only cash purchase to date that removes the baseline requirement from a progression system.

For horse training and banking/bag upgrades, the baseline requirement is “pay a fee”

For leveling, the baseline requirement is “kill and quest”

For obtaining food and potions, the baseline requirement is actually “purchase or craft it” as it’s available via traders

For respecs, the identical function is in shrines.


Skyshards’ baseline requirement is “explore the world to locate them”, this eliminates that baselines and there is no in-game comparable system that also eliminates that requirement through non-cash methods

If skyshards are allowed, then gear is allowed, then a PTS-template character for Live purchase is allowed, because like every who claim it isn’t P2W says “it’s nothing you can’t grind for”

Fusozay

No it's not P2W.

Jhalin wrote: »

Fusozay wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

It is P2W, and there is no arguing that. You can argue how harmful it will be to the game.

Let's take a look at an example here. We have two people who have had an identical progress, and they just hit level 50.

Player1: Has enough skills to get the class skills he is using in his build, and some of the class passive skills.

Player2: Has every skill his build requires, all of the passives for his class, all of the relevant passives for armors and weapons, and some of the guild/PvP passives.

wrong. Player2 will have same skillpoints, he didnot take skyshards on location, so not obtain SP. and shop didnon open new skyshards.

Wrong. Progress is character based in ESO for all thing besides CP

Player1 makes a Necro and begins to level without paying, hits level 50 with an alright amount of skillpoints that give them a mostly complete build

Player2 makes a Necro and pays for 200 of the skillpoints their main earned, unlocks every passive as it becomes available, and has more than enough skillpoints for flex skills


It’s the only cash purchase to date that removes the baseline requirement from a progression system.

For horse training and banking/bag upgrades, the baseline requirement is “pay a fee”

For leveling, the baseline requirement is “kill and quest”

For obtaining food and potions, the baseline requirement is actually “purchase or craft it” as it’s available via traders

For respecs, the identical function is in shrines.


Skyshards’ baseline requirement is “explore the world to locate them”, this eliminates that baselines and there is no in-game comparable system that also eliminates that requirement through non-cash methods

If skyshards are allowed, then gear is allowed, then a PTS-template character for Live purchase is allowed, because like every who claim it isn’t P2W says “it’s nothing you can’t grind for”

so.
if i had not time to take all skyshards by all toons becose i work for real money - i mast be looser against palyer who didnot work hard for money and have much free time for game?
if i worker so i cannot save my time? i ALREADY take this skyshards. at the beta\prerelise\relise i take skyshards on my sorc. at morrowind i take on bear-warden. at summerset - i go to my argo wardentank - and this is boring. at my necro - it can begin angry me... and now i have so much time to play> i cant run AGAIN at all of this shards.

and some ppl have wifes, who needs time to...