Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Deathlord92

I wish we could pick racial passives or morph em my Breton an assassin and always will be Breton for life

Red_Feather

Jaraal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's actually not.


When you are hidden, your detection "eye" is closed. When a player or NPC comes in range, but still don't see you, the eye is partially open. When you are discovered, the eye opens fully.

Now, imagine that you are hidden in PvP, and a Nord enemy player is approaching. When he gets within range, say for the sake of discussion, 3 meters...... your eye opens partially and you know someone is near. You are aware of the Nord's presence, whether he actually sees you or not.

Now, let's consider what happens if the player is a Bosmer. He/she will detect you (with the new Hunter's Eye passive) hiding from 3 meters further out, whether he actually "sees" you or not. But what effect does it have on you? Yep, you guessed it. Your "eye" will open while the Bosmer is 3 meters further away from when you knew the Nord was near. So basically, Hunter's Eye has the unique 'benefit' of alerting you twice as early when a Bosmer player is near.

So, is that useful in PvP? I don't see how it is.

When you explain it that sounds like negative racial passive! That's awful and I might take my point out of it.

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Red_Feather Oh believe me, it's not useful in PvP. At least not to the point that it matters, but I don't think it's supposed to be anyway. ZOS stated that they wanted a sense of progression in the racials and make them increasingly more powerful, so obviously their first passive has low impact. The detection doesn't help you see a cloaked NB faster because you are in their range before they get revealed, it's a bit counterintuitive as they aren't actually pulled out of invisibility, and while sneaking enemies do get revealed sooner, they also get alerted of your presence before you are of theirs, paradoxically putting the sneaking enemy at an advantage, that is assuming the players don't move randomly.

They have said they wanted a feeling of progression for passives, but it sure didn't turn out that way. Five of the ten races have +Max Resource as their first passive.

Nords get +1000 health, + cold resistance, + immune to chilled as their first passive. Our third (and should be strongest?) passive is +2000 stam, + poison resist, +immune to poison. Granted our is better for DPS, but Nords start off strong and stay strong.

Dunmer likewise start off with a strong +max to stam and magicka. I'd say their second passive, +flame resist, is the weakest of the bunch.

Red_Feather

I am new to wood elf and have the luxury of rerolling. What race should I pick for stamina templar?
edit: I think Orc would be best for PvP. Sorry for posting here. I am detracting.

Ratzkifal

Red_Feather wrote: »

I am new to wood elf and have the luxury of rerolling. What race should I pick for stamina templar?
edit: I think Orc would be best for PvP. Sorry for posting here. I am detracting.

@Red_Feather Stamina and in doubt? Go Orc! You can never go wrong with Orc because they are pretty much the best at everything stamina closely followed by Dunmer who have the luxury of also being able to go magicka and excel at it.
Khajiit are also good for stamina or magicka but Dunmer are better and Orc are better than them if you are certain you'll go stamina and not switch later.
Behind Khajiit, Redguard and Bosmer are equal, with Bosmer pulling ahead as dps outside lab conditions and Redguard pulling ahead as tanks.

It should be noted that any races works for any content and spec. However some choices will make your life more convenient, like Bosmer did for thieves before they lost their 3m being-detected radius reduction. Now Bosmer have the easiest stamina sustain and if you are usually struggling to manage your resources, you'll end up being a better damage dealer on a sustain race than on a "power race". (Can't deal damage if you are constantly out of stamina after all)

Cundu_Ertur

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's not, really. 3m is too small of a detection boost: potions, abilities, and spells are still the way to go for detection. The PVP'ers seem to like the roll dodge thing, for whatever reason. But not even the most vociferous defender of the roll-dodge bonus could come up with a situation where they ever had a use for the detection bit.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's not, really. 3m is too small of a detection boost: potions, abilities, and spells are still the way to go for detection. The PVP'ers seem to like the roll dodge thing, for whatever reason. But not even the most vociferous defender of the roll-dodge bonus could come up with a situation where they ever had a use for the detection bit.

I actually didn't test if the 3m stack with the 20m of a detection potion or if they extend your truesight or not. That could be an interesting test.
Despite being a 32% area increase (which only matters when you assume random motion), I doubt it really affects the outcome as the relative speeds and distance between the players is way more important. There are no 23m choke points. If 23m is enough then so will 20m and if it's not, then there was no guarantee for you to find your enemy anyway as that would mean you are in an open field.
On the other end 3m reduction can make or break chokepoints pretty much anywhere as it allows you to hide in corners or at walls when your enemy is in the middle of the room.

Cundu_Ertur

Except they'll be warned you're there before you know they are there. Wasn't that you, or was it wedgebert who found that out?

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Except they'll be warned you're there before you know they are there. Wasn't that you, or was it wedgebert who found that out?

I've brought it up a few times, but I'm not the one who initially discovered it. It's been mentioned in other places and I just wanted it in the context of this thread.

Ratzkifal

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

MartiniDaniels

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

I'm betting my 12 hardly earned Artaeum Takeaway Broth that there will be a lot of things broken and hilarious outrage everywhere!

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

Pts will be up in the afternoon sometime in the US so in the evening in Europe. I really hope there is something about stealth in it. Even just a hint would be nice.

JadeCoin

The other day my boyfriend's Khajiiti main was stopped for his bounty by a Bosmer guard. I wish I had a screenshot of the dialog to post here, but it's more involved to upload that from an Xbox.

The Bosmer guard basically said: "Didn't see me there, did you? Happens all the time."

Apparently even when they are guards, Wood Elves rely less on detection than stealth to catch criminals. They can sneak up on you and, more to the point, they're short!

The irony of this encounter was certainly not lost on my poor Bosmer thief.

max_only

JadeCoin wrote: »

The other day my boyfriend's Khajiiti main was stopped for his bounty by a Bosmer guard. I wish I had a screenshot of the dialog to post here, but it's more involved to upload that from an Xbox.

The Bosmer guard basically said: "Didn't see me there, did you? Happens all the time."

Apparently even when they are guards, Wood Elves rely less on detection than stealth to catch criminals. They can sneak up on you and, more to the point, they're short!

The irony of this encounter was certainly not lost on my poor Bosmer thief.

That’s poetic!

billp_ESO

I will go out on a limb here, and say that when they introduce the new "tree", or whatever it is to counteract gutting the Bosmer, it will be behind a paywall.

Probably in a new DLC, costing money.

wedgebert

billp_ESO wrote: »

I will go out on a limb here, and say that when they introduce the new "tree", or whatever it is to counteract gutting the Bosmer, it will be behind a paywall.

Probably in a new DLC, costing money.

And still won't counteract the loss of Bosmers' racial identity because it will be available to everyone. Bosmer will continue to not exist in this game, instead we'll just keep being Altmer who were cast out for not having magic.

StormeReigns

If no stealth return, let my bosmer climb 8-10 meter walls / trees. An perch above the rest to rain arrows down

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

Nope. Nothing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468599/pts-patch-notes-v5-0-0#latest

Stealth is mentioned once;

"You can currently crouch with Volendrung equipped, which is not intended. This will be resolved in a future PTS patch as you should not be able to crouch/stealth while carrying an Artifact."

Bosmer is not mentioned, nor wood elf.

Seriously, wtf? Just say something Zos, anything.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

Nope. Nothing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468599/pts-patch-notes-v5-0-0#latest

Stealth is mentioned once;

"You can currently crouch with Volendrung equipped, which is not intended. This will be resolved in a future PTS patch as you should not be able to crouch/stealth while carrying an Artifact."

Bosmer is not mentioned, nor wood elf.

Seriously, wtf? Just say something Zos, anything.

Means nobody can detect a stealthed player with an artifact.....








.....not even Bosmer.

Koronach

Paying attention to lore and preserving established lore actually means break it, remain silent, and sweep it under the rug. Now they just hope newer players don't notice the lore fails and question them.

BlueRaven

A few weeks ago there was a reddit post that claimed they were going to interview a developer. And they were asking for questions. Remember that? Did anything come of it?

I thought there was a link somewhere in this thread and I cannot find it.

anadandy

BlueRaven wrote: »

A few weeks ago there was a reddit post that claimed they were going to interview a developer. And they were asking for questions. Remember that? Did anything come of it?

I thought there was a link somewhere in this thread and I cannot find it.

I just checked my profile on reddit because I had commented on that thread. User has been deleted.

Eiron77

BlueRaven wrote: »

A few weeks ago there was a reddit post that claimed they were going to interview a developer. And they were asking for questions. Remember that? Did anything come of it?

I thought there was a link somewhere in this thread and I cannot find it.

Nothing came of it. The account of the reddit user who created the thread appears to have been deleted.

Two of us asked for some kind of followup, but no response before the account was deleted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/b31gsu/comment/ejozmd9

JadeCoin

Koronach wrote: »

Paying attention to lore and preserving established lore actually means break it, remain silent, and sweep it under the rug. Now they just hope newer players don't notice the lore fails and question them.

I do feel some divide on this issue between long-time Elder Scrolls fans like myself, and players who came to the game by other avenues. Neither of these paths is the "right" or the "wrong" way to get to ESO, and neither is "better" or "worse." But the two groups do bring with them a different history and a different relationship to the lore.

In their Elder Scrolls 25th Anniversary video, Bethesda filmed players like us, players who, over many years, are imaginatively invested in the world they created, to the point that maybe we laugh or shout or shed a tear each time we revisit it. We share it with our friends, our families, and our children, and it genuinely touches our lives. If Zenimax (or anyone else) wonders why we care so much, why we're still here and still talking about this topic, they don't need to look far. They only have to watch their own video.

Jaraal

Koronach wrote: »

Paying attention to lore and preserving established lore actually means break it, remain silent, and sweep it under the rug. Now they just hope newer players don't notice the lore fails and question them.

Unfortunately, there are a number of quest and other dialogues as well as books that refer to Bosmer being masters of stealth, and new players will be confused as to why the NPCs are calling Khajiit wood elves, and so forth.

One questionable decision can be the rock thrown into the pond of still water. You can believe it will be an issue as long as the lore remains broken.

Truthsnark

Did you all see that they added another stealth radius reduction set for Elsweyr? Won't we now have the same problem with Khajiit being able to essentially stealth under guard's noses? You could wear a 5-piece Night Mother's Embrace, 4-piece Darloc Brae, and 3-piece Night Terror at the same time. Khajiit would have 9m reduction, and everybody else would have 6m reduction. Previously when they had 5m reduction on PTS, they were getting up to 9m reduction with two stealth sets, and ZOS reversed that and put their base reduction back to 3m.

Or have they decided they didn't really care about that after all? This whole thing is so half-baked, from the lore inconsistency to the contradictory reasons given to remove bosmer stealth, to the stealth detection passive (when they even told us NPCs don't stealth), and now potential Khajiit overall stealth bonus boosts being right back to where it was on the prior PTS cycle.

Ratzkifal

Well, considering how the last PTS went, we would have had a stealth change in week 1 if they were actually considering to change it. Too bad for Bosmer and Altmer who need their lore figured out and Argonians who are lacking in literally every role and every spec.

I'm also very suprised they didn't change any of the boring class passives. Might have to revive my old thread on the topic.

Jaraal

Calls to mind the old saying, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Instead, they went in the opposite direction and claimed the racial changes were to bring more diversity, when in fact, they cut the number of stealthy races in half. Would have made more sense to add Dunmer and Argonian to the two existing stealthy races, but they decided to go the other way.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I'm also very suprised they didn't change any of the boring class passives. Might have to revive my old thread on the topic.

Like the Nightblade Dark Veil passive? Adds 15% duration to all Shadow skills. But what it actually does is add a longer cast time to the Dark Cloak heal. Makes zero sense.

Ryknos

max_only wrote: »

Wood Elves have always been a stealth based race.

(Looks at Breton Hero) Yep.