Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I'm also very suprised they didn't change any of the boring class passives. Might have to revive my old thread on the topic.

Like the Nightblade Dark Veil passive? Adds 15% duration to all Shadow skills. But what it actually does is add a longer cast time to the Dark Cloak heal. Makes zero sense.

Exactly those. But I was coming more from a perspective that they don't add a lot. The shadow skills could have 15% increased duration already and make room for a meaningful passive that can shape class identity. Every class except warden and necromancer has a passive like that. DK has two.

But hey, ZOS seems to like meaningless passives cough Hunter's Eye cough. After all they changed Dark Veil but didn't make it good, which is absolutely baffling to me.

Ratzkifal

Ryknos wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Wood Elves have always been a stealth based race.

(Looks at Breton Hero) Yep.

@Ryknos What do you mean?

anadandy

Truthsnark wrote: »

Did you all see that they added another stealth radius reduction set for Elsweyr? Won't we now have the same problem with Khajiit being able to essentially stealth under guard's noses? You could wear a 5-piece Night Mother's Embrace, 4-piece Darloc Brae, and 3-piece Night Terror at the same time. Khajiit would have 9m reduction, and everybody else would have 6m reduction. Previously when they had 5m reduction on PTS, they were getting up to 9m reduction with two stealth sets, and ZOS reversed that and put their base reduction back to 3m.

Or have they decided they didn't really care about that after all? This whole thing is so half-baked, from the lore inconsistency to the contradictory reasons given to remove bosmer stealth, to the stealth detection passive (when they even told us NPCs don't stealth), and now potential Khajiit overall stealth bonus boosts being right back to where it was on the prior PTS cycle.

Yeah - that set just adds fuel to the zero effort nonsense fire. It was just so game breakingly unbalanced to have two races with a stealth radius bonus that they added it into a new set. Though I guess if a Bosmer were to pair this set with the new Sentry set they'd be the PVP Anti-Ganker Squad the devs seem determined to pigeonhole them as.

Ratzkifal

anadandy wrote: »

Truthsnark wrote: »

Did you all see that they added another stealth radius reduction set for Elsweyr? Won't we now have the same problem with Khajiit being able to essentially stealth under guard's noses? You could wear a 5-piece Night Mother's Embrace, 4-piece Darloc Brae, and 3-piece Night Terror at the same time. Khajiit would have 9m reduction, and everybody else would have 6m reduction. Previously when they had 5m reduction on PTS, they were getting up to 9m reduction with two stealth sets, and ZOS reversed that and put their base reduction back to 3m.

Or have they decided they didn't really care about that after all? This whole thing is so half-baked, from the lore inconsistency to the contradictory reasons given to remove bosmer stealth, to the stealth detection passive (when they even told us NPCs don't stealth), and now potential Khajiit overall stealth bonus boosts being right back to where it was on the prior PTS cycle.

Yeah - that set just adds fuel to the zero effort nonsense fire. It was just so game breakingly unbalanced to have two races with a stealth radius bonus that they added it into a new set. Though I guess if a Bosmer were to pair this set with the new Sentry set they'd be the PVP Anti-Ganker Squad the devs seem determined to pigeonhole them as.

I'm not even sure it adds onto the 20m of detection potions or mage light/expert hunter. It's very possible that it doesn't even do that, seeing how it doesn't fully pull people out of invisibility. It sounds to me like it just wouldn't be added.

Man, I miss my stealth. That new set only really works on Nightblades because the magicka gives them more cloaks. That's cool and all, but it also doesn't really "open up stealth" to anyone new. That set does nothing that other sneak sets don't do already. And Darkstride would have probably been better on old Bosmer non-NBs than the current "Bosmer" is with this new set!

BlueRaven

Well you have to remember Bosmer's have legendary stealth because they all go to the same crafting station. /s

max_only

Truthsnark wrote: »

Did you all see that they added another stealth radius reduction set for Elsweyr? Won't we now have the same problem with Khajiit being able to essentially stealth under guard's noses? You could wear a 5-piece Night Mother's Embrace, 4-piece Darloc Brae, and 3-piece Night Terror at the same time. Khajiit would have 9m reduction, and everybody else would have 6m reduction. Previously when they had 5m reduction on PTS, they were getting up to 9m reduction with two stealth sets, and ZOS reversed that and put their base reduction back to 3m.

Or have they decided they didn't really care about that after all? This whole thing is so half-baked, from the lore inconsistency to the contradictory reasons given to remove bosmer stealth, to the stealth detection passive (when they even told us NPCs don't stealth), and now potential Khajiit overall stealth bonus boosts being right back to where it was on the prior PTS cycle.

Here we go again. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme/p1 Going to need to recreate this thread in PTS.

Ryknos wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Wood Elves have always been a stealth based race.

(Looks at Breton Hero) Yep.

I’ve been accused of cherry picking but you are like the truffle hunter of cherry pickers lol

Ratzkifal

Well, so far nobody on the forums seems to have noticed what the Darloc set has brought upon this cursed land.
You think ZOS is fully aware of that? After all, it takes you 12 items to achieve it and you only get no proper effect to be active.

I think the best solutions for this would either involve a cap so that you can't go past 7m reduction or having the sets grant a minor/major buff which I suggest naming "Covertness" and that is stronger than 2m as it wouldn't stack with other sources.
Either way, racial passives like that of Khajiit (and hopefully soon again Bosmer) would grant you new build options as you can drop a set to pick up another one.
Say Night Mother's Embrace gives major Covertness (4m) and Darloc gives minor (2m) and the cap is 7m. Then Khajiit (and Bosmer!) could drop Darloc and take Dark Stride or something similar because they don't need Darloc anymore due to the cap. Other races could still wear Embrace and Darloc to get close to the cap.

Obviously this is just me brainstorming, so it might not be ideal yet, but I certainly would appreciate if your racial passives enable you to take different build options rather than just pushing you to pile up as much of stat X as possible. If radius reduction is the better sneak stat to any other, then there is currently no reason to invest into any other. This would change with my suggestion.

wedgebert

I'm actually surprised there's not a stealth cap. Especially after the exact same problem cropped up during the Wrathstone PTS.

Ratzkifal

Btw, how does the change to food affect Bosmer? Is it because the food gave Orc/Dunmer sustain and damage that, now that the damage is nerfed, the gap between Bosmer on blue food and Orc/Dunmer on Camoran got smaller? So an indirect buff to competitiveness?

Too bad ZOS can't allow more than one race to be viable for sneaking thieves :laughing emoji: :internally crying emoji:

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Btw, how does the change to food affect Bosmer? Is it because the food gave Orc/Dunmer sustain and damage that, now that the damage is nerfed, the gap between Bosmer on blue food and Orc/Dunmer on Camoran got smaller? So an indirect buff to competitiveness?

Too bad ZOS can't allow more than one race to be viable for sneaking thieves :laughing emoji: :internally crying emoji:

I think so. It makes the stamina regenerate on bosmers more powerful if getting stamina otherwise is nerfed. I still don't think it's going to be changing any of the metas though.

Personally I am hoping that their idea for "Opening stealth to more races" was not that new armor set. After what they hinted at in Boston, that would be a huge disappointment as they really implied it was a new skill tree.

Having that new armor set is making me second guess what was said. I am still hoping that the dlc beyond Elsweyr (update 23?) will be something stealth related, but my moral is starting to ebb.

Ratzkifal

I mean, the skill line might still come. But there is no ETA on it and it may not be high on their priority list...
Don't give up hope yet though. We will eventually be heard!

What we could do is bother class reps and/or community embassadors (not sure what their role actually is) to make our case heard. I don't know the reps too well, so I don't know who we could approach and politely ask if he/she wants to champion our cause to do Bosmer lore justice.

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I mean, the skill line might still come. But there is no ETA on it and it may not be high on their priority list...
Don't give up hope yet though. We will eventually be heard!

What we could do is bother class reps and/or community embassadors (not sure what their role actually is) to make our case heard. I don't know the reps too well, so I don't know who we could approach and politely ask if he/she wants to champion our cause to do Bosmer lore justice.

A skill line isn't going to help Bosmer though. We'd still be the worst stealth race in the game.

BlueRaven

wedgebert wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I mean, the skill line might still come. But there is no ETA on it and it may not be high on their priority list...
Don't give up hope yet though. We will eventually be heard!

What we could do is bother class reps and/or community embassadors (not sure what their role actually is) to make our case heard. I don't know the reps too well, so I don't know who we could approach and politely ask if he/she wants to champion our cause to do Bosmer lore justice.

A skill line isn't going to help Bosmer though. We'd still be the worst stealth race in the game.

Yeah.

Of course they could always rework the racials when the tree is introduced. But yeah, I really don't understand how they are going to dig out of the hole they made. My only hope/guess is that they underestimated how big a deal this was and they were caught unawares (even though they had plenty of warnings from the forums and class reps). And that they are working on a fix.

Or maybe, just maybe, stealth in general is going to have a major rework? Maybe Stage 1 was racial updates, stage 2 was class abilities updates, and stage 3 is basic mechanics? Maybe stealth gameplay will be a bit more dynamic, as in the speed you go in stealth is related to how stealthy you are (like in the base ES games). Stuff like that.

I dunno, one can dream.

wedgebert

My guess they're going to dig out of it by continuing to dig down until they reach daylight.

Truthsnark

I'm torn on the Darloc Brae set. On one hand, it's pretty much the only way my Bosmer will ever get back what she lost, at this point. On the other hand, those dang cats will have super stealth again. Although I suppose it is likely that only the really really dedicated few stealth weirdos (like me, yes) will devote all of their gear slots to only stealth gear. My Elsweyr #1 launch day priority: getting more stealth sets!

Jaraal

But the new set is really no different than Night Terror or Night Mother's Embrace.... other than the fact you regain resources while crouched. And there's still a stealth radius cap that all races can hit with 2 sets plus the medium armor detection reduction passive. The only difference is that previously only Bosmer and Khajiit (now just Khajiit) could reach the cap with just one set plus the medium armor passive, and their racial Stealthy passive. This allowed them to use a sneak speed reduction set or a damage set. So really, adding a third radius reduction set does nothing to address the issue of Bosmer losing stealth, and consequently, decades of established lore.


Here is a summary of detection radius limits:


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74079/stealth-detection-distance

Left4Daud

I could test and post stealth stacking visuals with the new set but I already know what the results will produce. Khajiits in the 3 stealth reduction sets will be able to pee on a guard’s legs with a 10k bounty and the guards won’t bat an eye.

I’m inclined to believe ZOS is okay with that otherwise why would they add that set after addressing extreme stealth stacking last PTS?

They just can’t make up their minds regarding stealth so expect more half-baked ideas and implementations until the supposed “overhaul” and new skill line comes to fruition. Oh and if they prioritize it like they did the guild store search function, could be waiting a while.

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

But the new set is really no different than Night Terror or Night Mother's Embrace.... other than the fact you regain resources while crouched. And there's still a stealth radius cap that all races can hit with 2 sets plus the medium armor detection reduction passive. The only difference is that previously only Bosmer and Khajiit (now just Khajiit) could reach the cap with just one set plus the medium armor passive, and their racial Stealthy passive. This allowed them to use a sneak speed reduction set or a damage set. So really, adding a third radius reduction set does nothing to address the issue of Bosmer losing stealth, and consequently, decades of established lore.

Here is a summary of detection radius limits:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74079/stealth-detection-distance

With the new set you could have 4 pieces of the new set, 3 pieces of Night Terror, and 5 pieces of Night Silence/Shadowdancer for no movement penealty. I'll stick with my Night Silence/Night Mother's Embrace on my two mains, which leaves head+shoulder for another set. Also, NME isn't a completely craptacular set even though it still leaves me missing 1m from what I had before with my Night Silence + whatever set I wanted. The Night Terror + new set bonuses don't impress me much, and leave nothing open for monster sets.

KMarble

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it. I did some lazy/misguided tests and was spotted. But it happened when my char was walking normally and not trying to hide.

If someone can tell me what I should be doing, I'll be happy to test it.

For the record: I don't think this new set makes up for what was taken from Wood Elves. Right now 7 of my bag spaces are taken by medium gear so I can steal. With the new set I'll have to completely change my "outfit", which means 14 spaces permanently occupied by gear.

Jaraal

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

max_only

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I think all guards are coded the same.

Best way to test it would be to try it with a bounty like they did in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme#latest

max_only

Hey Zos, you can’t take something away Monday and sell it to me Tuesday and expect me to not call that out...

KMarble

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I saw no Bosmer guards in Elsweyr. I heard it's because it's hard to catch the sneaky thieves on the job as with the new "racial" Bosmers became even more visible. The words "sore thumb" come to mind ;P
On a serious note, thanks for the tips. I'll try it soon.

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I think all guards are coded the same.

Best way to test it would be to try it with a bounty like they did in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme#latest

Getting a bounty wasn't a problem. I just had no idea on how to make this...measurable I guess would be a proper word.

Jaraal

KMarble wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I saw no Bosmer guards in Elsweyr. I heard it's because it's hard to catch the sneaky thieves on the job as with the new "racial" Bosmers became even more visible. The words "sore thumb" come to mind ;P
On a serious note, thanks for the tips. I'll try it soon.

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I think all guards are coded the same.

Best way to test it would be to try it with a bounty like they did in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme#latest

Getting a bounty wasn't a problem. I just had no idea on how to make this...measurable I guess would be a proper word.

I guess if you could access and read the code you could get the raw numbers, but that's beyond my field of expertise.

Ratzkifal

KMarble wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I saw no Bosmer guards in Elsweyr. I heard it's because it's hard to catch the sneaky thieves on the job as with the new "racial" Bosmers became even more visible. The words "sore thumb" come to mind ;P
On a serious note, thanks for the tips. I'll try it soon.

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I created a NB Khajiit with everything stealth maxed on PTS, but I'm not sure how to test it.

I would guess find a stationary guard and inch closer towards them in stealth, and note at what distance your detection eye starts to open. Try it with just racial passive, then add one set, then two, etc.

Just make sure it's not a Bosmer guard, as they can detect you a few meters further away. Or at least that's how it should be, if they are staying true to the "new lore".

I think all guards are coded the same.

Best way to test it would be to try it with a bounty like they did in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme#latest

Getting a bounty wasn't a problem. I just had no idea on how to make this...measurable I guess would be a proper word.

I measured it in a duel last time. You could try to get another player to help you. Just get yourself a home, place furniture in regular intervals and then say "three bookcases away".

Truthsnark

I am a simple person so I had to test distance detection for myself. I hied myself off to PTS and Xul-Thuxis where there is a stationary NPC standing on a grid (the wanderer next to him doesn't affect testing, as the wandering NPC is further away).

To test, I used my Bosmer main. She is a vampire but that shouldn't affect testing. In scenario one, I had two stealth sets (NT & NME) and the full 7-piece medium armor bonus. In scenario 2, I had three stealth sets (NT, NME, and DB) and the full 7-piece medium armor bonus. I looked at the distance at which the NPC actually saw and attacked me.

I was able to get closer to the NPC before they saw and attacked me with the three stealth sets on. The distance was almost the same as testing with my racial stealth bonus and one stealth set equipped, before they took it away.

So yeah, I dunno. It's better than not having it considering ZOS seems to have zero inclination to reverse this terrible decision, but it takes ALL of your gear slots and you pretty much have to be a vampire for the sneak speed?

Truthsnark

I can do one with the stealth detection passive once I find a guard standing on a grid that doesn't move around.

Ratzkifal

Truthsnark wrote: »

I am a simple person so I had to test distance detection for myself. I hied myself off to PTS and Xul-Thuxis where there is a stationary NPC standing on a grid (the wanderer next to him doesn't affect testing, as the wandering NPC is further away).

To test, I used my Bosmer main. She is a vampire but that shouldn't affect testing. In scenario one, I had two stealth sets (NT & NME) and the full 7-piece medium armor bonus. In scenario 2, I had three stealth sets (NT, NME, and DB) and the full 7-piece medium armor bonus. I looked at the distance at which the NPC actually saw and attacked me.

I was able to get closer to the NPC before they saw and attacked me with the three stealth sets on. The distance was almost the same as testing with my racial stealth bonus and one stealth set equipped, before they took it away.

So yeah, I dunno. It's better than not having it considering ZOS seems to have zero inclination to reverse this terrible decision, but it takes ALL of your gear slots and you pretty much have to be a vampire for the sneak speed?

Looks good, but that's what worries me actually. I'm pretty sure the people at ZOS are looking at the numbers more than into their imagination. It certainly feels like "result are the only thing that matter" with them, when I'd say the path there is about just as important. Just like being BiS for stamina on an Altmer would feel wrong to me. But I've learned that there are enough people out in the forums ready to tell you "What are you complaining about? You are BiS!" as if it is the only thing that matters...
I'd rather have (part of) the reduction come my racial choice rather than a set, because Bosmer have always been a sneaky race.

Jaraal

Be interesting to see the same test with a Khajiit.

JadeCoin

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I'd rather have (part of) the reduction come my racial choice rather than a set, because Bosmer have always been a sneaky race.

I agree. I would even add that whether the bonus comes from race or from a set does have tangible results. @Truthsnark mentions some of them: having the bonus as part of the racials results in your freedom to choose a different set without sacrificing effectiveness. That additional set might be Night's Silence, freeing you up to be a non-vampire. It might be a flavor set, or a damage set. "You haven't lost anything" is false because I can point to what we've lost: we've lost variety that doesn't sacrifice stealth.

I know that a lot of classes (including my primary dps) just went through nerfs on the PTS, but what makes this one so irksome is that it wasn't taken away to level the playing field. Stealth was taken away from Bosmer specifically, and explicitly, so that Khajiit could be naturally better at it. Can you imagine the uproar if they took away DK's wings, in order to give them to another class...?