Couldn't they have at least made it so that dodgerolling doesn't get you out of stealth on a Bosmer? Then we could at least benefit from that while sneaking. Q_Q

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Couldn't they have at least made it so that dodgerolling doesn't get you out of stealth on a Bosmer? Then we could at least benefit from that while sneaking. Q_Q

There is so much they could have done that would have been respectful of Bosmer stealth identity if they were bound and determined to remove the stealth bonus - many of which were suggested. But instead they shoehorned in that stealth detect with a blithe "And now we wave a magic wand and instead of being stealthy your identity is now detecting stealthed enemies!"

Then stuck their fingers into their ears when we all went "But....nothing stealths in PVE...."

I'm just glad I got all my fish and skyshards from Cyro while I had the chance.

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

I agree, the change is by no means game breaking. It is annoying, and in all truth it is not annoying enough … yet ... for me to consider redoing my character. I just really want my stealth perk back.
I think it is too early for me to tell if I think the other changes will balance out the loss of stealth or not.

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

Okay, I've done some more testing in-game and these are my conclusions on the loss of the 3m stealth:

Lara had on full sets of both Night's Silence and Night' Mothers (3 pieces + bow for each. She'd enter sneak with full Night's Silence and then swap weapons for full Night Mother's), same as she had before the patch.

She made the rounds of Elden Root with almost no noticeable change in difficulty. Ditto for Wayrest castle and a few other spots. Though looting the 'basement' room in the castle was harder.

She then entered several private homes in Wayrest and she had a VERY hard time straying undetected. Never got a bounty for trespassing but those interiors are so small that she had effectively no room for error. One or two she even left without grabbing the strongbox because the NPCs were so hard to avoid.

She tried a few delves. Again, definitely trickier than before. Corridors are tight and rooms either small or cluttered, giving little margin for error. She flopped hard at staying hidden in Vinedusk (got a swarm of spriggans on her tail and had to unleash ww to escape), though did a little better in a few others.

Then Lara did some more thieving. There was this one object she tried to grab in a mages guild, but a mage was walking nearby that saw her twice, once when I swear she was far enough away that if Lara still had that extra 3m, she wouldn't have seen a thing. Had to time it so Lara grabbed the loot as the mage walked away from her.

To sum up: A lot of the time, the loss in stealth radius is of little to no consequence. A Bosmer thief will function about as well as before. HOWEVER...once they start entering 'higher-risk' area like crowded markets, narrow delve corridors, small rooms with more than one NPC that loss WILL be felt acutely as they now have less margin for error.

In addition, even though Lara almost never got caught today, sneaking around with her felt 'off'. I found myself worrying more about where NPCs were and how they were walking and how far away from X I'd have to be to not be seen. It felt like those times I was sneaking around with my Nord main, who was not geared for stealth at the time, in one of the Vvardenfell plot lines. Not like how stealth used to feel with Lara before the patch, when she was just zipping about like crazy, thumbing her nose at everything. It just didn't feel quite as fun.

Zuboko wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

I agree, the change is by no means game breaking. It is annoying, and in all truth it is not annoying enough … yet ... for me to consider redoing my character. I just really want my stealth perk back.
I think it is too early for me to tell if I think the other changes will balance out the loss of stealth or not.

Yeah. For casual thieving/sneaking, not much change. But, when you really need it, you don't. I'm too attached to Lara to change her and the impact of the change isn't terrible but it does feel that something is missing.

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

@Sypherioth It's quite apparent you didn't read most of the thread and with 11 pages, nobody can blame you for that. Our biggest concern is not the 10% damage from stealth, it's the removal of the detection radius reduction which goes against the theme of the race and ZOS own goals.
Most of us here would be fine with the racials as they are if they simply gave Bosmer the reduced detection radius back because stealth is a core aspect of the woodelfs only second to archery maybe. This update turned Bosmer from thieves into guards and that's stupid.

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I don't care about sustain, I have enough for what I do in the game. Way enough. Even though, for some reason I can't even begin to fathom, my Nord stam sorcerer tank with no gear bonus to stam regen has about 100 more stam regen than my Bosmer with both racial bonus and 2 +stamregen occurences on her gear.

I'm pretty sure I don't have more total stamina, either. Percentage are WAY more powerful when you are well specialised. Flat value are a pretty cool incentive to avoid minmaxing, but if you had enough base stamina, percentages were better. And since I was sneaking all the time, I had planned accordingly and had a sh*t ton of base stamina.

No one here is talking about the extra damage when attacking from stealth. Litterally nobody. We don't care.

Nightblades ? Sure, I do play a nightblade stamina Bosmer. But stealth doesn't equal nightblade. I also have a stealthy Warden, for instance. She's an Imperial, by the way, so she's even more stealthy than a Bosmer now, since the cost reduction applies to stealth. Bosmers don't even have that.

Simply put, no one in this thread or anywhere else advocating for the return of stealth to the Bosmers cares for combat stats, numbers, damage and whatnot. We care that our favourite gameplay mechanic, sneaking around while being nigh invisible, has been forcefully ripped from us after several years of character developpement.

And stealth wasn't even replaced by something useful. It was replaced by stealth detection, which has no use whatsoever in PvE since stealthed enemies don't even exist. That ability has no use at all in PvE, and from what I am told (I don't do PVp), only marginal use in PvP. That also makes the Bosmers the only race to have a non-flavour passive that has no use in PvE.

So... As you can see, numbers and combat prowess isn't what we care about here. We want our gameplay back, simple as that.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

Reason is that they needed somebody to counter gankers in PVP. So ZOS decided that best solution is to turn gank race to anti-gank race and also updated sentry set to show the way. Lore.. obviously persons who are responsible for balance don't care about lore much, they just need racial passives system which is easier to balance and which meets their vision of PVP.

Then it still fails because it is a stupid reason, and not a good reason. Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

So, no. There's no good reason just a dumb, ill-conceived, and poorly implemented excuse for a reason. And if this was truly the reason, why leave the hiding bonus on the Khajiit (actually, don't forget Khajiit got a 2m INCREASE to their hiding bonus) and additional crit damage?

If they wanted to give a race a counter-stealth ability, it should have been Orcs (who counter both Khajiit and Bosmer) who are described in the lore (ESO specific lore, at that) as being both very annoyed by people in stealth around them and very good at seeing said people. At least the Wood Orc tribes.

Well, it's extra damage from stealth was issue about bosmers, not a stealth radius. And increased damage gone on both races. High crit-pvp builds are very unstable one.. cool to kill lazy pve-ers which came to farm AP in pve gear, but rather weak against persons in full impen.. and majority of gankers were bosmers.. and Elsweyr which will be most popular among khajiit mains so it was rather obvious choice to sacrifice bosmers "for PVP balance sake".

So take away the damage bonus from attacking from stealth. I've never asked for it to come back. It should never have been limited behind a racial in the first place.

If the issue isn't the stealth radius why screw with it?

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

I'm basically agreeing with you while facepalming at the irony that ZOS made, if the intention was for bosmer's to be a counter to khajiit.

I was thinking the guard, obviously a Bosmer since that's our role now apparently, was purposedly hiding his face to make sure he wouldn't see the Khajiits ganking other folks, because they are on the same team.

Go home, imagination, you're drunk.

For those interested, this is from the previous class rep session:

"Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

Make of it what you will.

Razorback174 wrote: »

For those interested, this is from the previous class rep session:

"Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

Make of it what you will.

The first thing that comes to mind with this is a deeper Legerdemain tree in Elswyr. I suppose I'd be okay with getting the extra stealth bump from somewhere else, even if it means everyone else gets one too. Or perhaps there will be a new guild/tree in Elswyr that involves the underground thieving khajit people who train others to be more sneaky? I like this, but it's just a shame we have to wait and see what will happen, if anything.

This may explain ZOS' silence on the matter too, as their explanation may very well be a spoiler about something in Elswyr. Hmm...