PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Malada

Nevolent wrote: »

I have also developed an emotional attachment with my characters and I don't want to switch, but I know that if I don't it will bug me a lot because I don't like being in disadvantage. Well ofc some ppl don't care about racials and I wish I didn't either but I do and if I stay with my inferior race it will haunt me.

I am an artist myself I draw a lot and if someone broke my tools I wouldn't use the broken ones... I would go buy new tools, same as my old ones! No one would use broken tools guys if he could buy new.

And this my friends can't be done in the game.

Ps. Malada ofc everything is about money and profit.

And I think we are off topic.

I really wouldn't describe it as an emotional attachment. However clearly some of us are a little emotional about these changes as well as other changes namely being done without a clear reason and some of which are maybe even a little suspicious in nature with no real representation. That's what I'm saying, all this time and money and if you have time to read over some of the class rep posts on different things you may notice some of these ideas are a little questionable.

Make no mistake, this is not about, "being unable to accept change." As I have said myself, some changes are good. I make changes to my builds all the time however these changes are adjustments to the foundation of the characters and sets, or something new I've learned by matching my builds against fighting Elite's in certain zones in the dead of night. Fighting salty people who don't know me and will try to kill me any way they can is the best way to improve.

For my part, I find it best to try and listen to people concerned about a change so we can put the change in it's place intead of trying to put the person who disagrees with what I want done in theirs. It's not a friendly thing to do and will almost certainly end a business relationship.

Malada

Nevolent wrote: »

I have also developed an emotional attachment with my characters and I don't want to switch, but I know that if I don't it will bug me a lot because I don't like being in disadvantage. Well ofc some ppl don't care about racials and I wish I didn't either but I do and if I stay with my inferior race it will haunt me.

I am an artist myself I draw a lot and if someone broke my tools I wouldn't use the broken ones... I would go buy new tools, same as my old ones! No one would use broken tools guys if he could buy new.

And this my friends can't be done in the game.

Ps. Malada ofc everything is about money and profit.

And I think we are off topic.

Also, I'm not trying to rip your post however I fail to see how the current Bosmer is broken.

Do some of the current races have broken passives -absolutely- as I described earlier and their are probably others.

So if that's what you meant you are dead accurate. However I'd be careful drawing that line as some of what they're changing has worked fine for years, is lore friendly, works without breaking immersion, judging by some of the responses on these forums has worked great for so many ppl for years and as I was saying earlier their replacement change itself is broken and no one from that side seems to care. Although, perhaps it might get fixed in the future as we've seen happen with things like the DK.

I welcome any challenge from the Devs, Combat Team or any class rep who wants to come on here and try to refute my claims about how dumb and unnecessary the 'new' broken Bosmer changes are. And yes I realize Bosmer is the goto race now for WWs however even still it's a terrible change even for them when they could use that roll dodge stam for gap closers and the extra, temporary penetration will almost certainly goto waste anyways because other players are not going to just walk into your claws.

Malada

Malada wrote: »

Nevolent wrote: »

I have also developed an emotional attachment with my characters and I don't want to switch, but I know that if I don't it will bug me a lot because I don't like being in disadvantage. Well ofc some ppl don't care about racials and I wish I didn't either but I do and if I stay with my inferior race it will haunt me.

I am an artist myself I draw a lot and if someone broke my tools I wouldn't use the broken ones... I would go buy new tools, same as my old ones! No one would use broken tools guys if he could buy new.

And this my friends can't be done in the game.

Ps. Malada ofc everything is about money and profit.

And I think we are off topic.

I really wouldn't describe it as an emotional attachment. However clearly some of us are a little emotional about these changes as well as other changes namely being done without a clear reason and some of which are maybe even a little suspicious in nature with no real representation. That's what I'm saying, all this time and money and if you have time to read over some of the class rep posts on different things you may notice some of these ideas are a little questionable.

Make no mistake, this is not about, "being unable to accept change." As I have said myself, some changes are good. I make changes to my builds all the time however these changes are adjustments to the foundation of the characters and sets, or something new I've learned by matching my builds against fighting Elite's in certain zones in the dead of night. Fighting salty people who don't know me and will try to kill me any way they can is the best way to improve.

For my part, I find it best to try and listen to people concerned about a change so we can put the change in it's place intead of trying to put the person who disagrees with what I want done in theirs. It's not a friendly thing to do and will almost certainly end a business relationship.

however these changes are *not* adjustments to the foundation

My bad

Vapirko

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Yeah I want the elemental damage back as well. How about lowering the resource bonus to 1750, and giving them 150 spell damage to flame abilities? This would change it back to why people take the race on live, which is a great thing in general.

Why do you want the elemental damage back. You’re tooltips are stronger with the spell damage and now you can play mag or Stam

Kalle_Demos

Vapirko wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Yeah I want the elemental damage back as well. How about lowering the resource bonus to 1750, and giving them 150 spell damage to flame abilities? This would change it back to why people take the race on live, which is a great thing in general.

Why do you want the elemental damage back. You’re tooltips are stronger with the spell damage and now you can play mag or Stam

Because it was interesting, a niche that could be built upon, a unique trait tied to Dunmer racial identity that made them stand out from other DPS.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Yeah I want the elemental damage back as well. How about lowering the resource bonus to 1750, and giving them 150 spell damage to flame abilities? This would change it back to why people take the race on live, which is a great thing in general.

Why do you want the elemental damage back. You’re tooltips are stronger with the spell damage and now you can play mag or Stam

Because it was interesting, a niche that could be built upon, a unique trait tied to Dunmer racial identity that made them stand out from other DPS.

And locked into just fire DPS.

Malada

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam I'm dissapointed at no further updates to dunmer passives. This jack-of-all trades approach is not useful for PvE, there is no reason why to pick dunmer for mag DPS (which is weird, considering the race), since they don't have an edge over other contenders. It leaves the class at a niche area. I wish we had elemental damage brought back, instead of added resistances, it only comes in handy in certain scenarios, and can be easily compensated.

Yeah I want the elemental damage back as well. How about lowering the resource bonus to 1750, and giving them 150 spell damage to flame abilities? This would change it back to why people take the race on live, which is a great thing in general.

Why do you want the elemental damage back. You’re tooltips are stronger with the spell damage and now you can play mag or Stam

Because it was interesting, a niche that could be built upon, a unique trait tied to Dunmer racial identity that made them stand out from other DPS.

Well now hold on a second guys.

Listen to what he's saying, here at least. "Because it was interesting, a niche that could be built upon, a unique trait tied to Dunmer racial identity that made them stand out from other DPS."

You guys are right it does u know, basically lock it down for only fire dmg... however this is a really good point he's making.

Because I used to mod Skyrim and one of the biggest problems I faced was how to properly balance everything as I did not care for the original racial traits.

So it's good we have spell dmg now to make using Dunmer with certain builds easier, however ZOS has painted themselves into a trap with this as well. By making these bonuses so universal and ripping out the variable dmg you're actually melting the races together and making them all even more similar.

Bonuses like 129 Weapon Dmg are universal to sets for a reason. Using these type of bonuses on Racial abilities shows a lack of creativity and demonstrates some major problems on ZOS end that they need basically dumb everything down in order to fix what are simple problems. What they should have done was broaden the scope of things like Melee and Magic Dmg, updated their rules a little more to help bridge incompatibilities with various sets.

Instead their way of fixing this debacle is to make each race *into* a set, essentially. Bad theory.

Letho2469

Malada wrote: »

[...]

Bonuses like 129 Weapon Dmg are universal to sets for a reason. Using these type of bonuses on Racial abilities shows a lack of creativity and demonstrates some major problems on ZOS end that they need basically dumb everything down in order to fix what are simple problems. What they should have done was broaden the scope of things like Melee and Magic Dmg, updated their rules a little more to help bridge incompatibilities with various sets.

Instead their way of fixing this debacle is to make each race *into* a set, essentially. Bad theory.

Melting all classes together is the only way of balancing stuff. As an endgame pve player I am disappointed that they didn't entirely remove combat passives and gave classes identity by some flavor rp skills that are useless in combat.

Uryel

Nevolent wrote: »

I have also developed an emotional attachment with my characters and I don't want to switch, but I know that if I don't it will bug me a lot because I don't like being in disadvantage. Well ofc some ppl don't care about racials and I wish I didn't either but I do and if I stay with my inferior race it will haunt me.

I am an artist myself I draw a lot and if someone broke my tools I wouldn't use the broken ones... I would go buy new tools, same as my old ones! No one would use broken tools guys if he could buy new.

Just commenting on the parts I put in bold.

I too have grown attached to my character. I've seen her grow. She started as a wimpy little archer that could barely take a hit. She learnt to craft her own gear, food an potions. She grew stronger, and mastered the shadows. She can breeze through a delve or public dungeon and hit only whatever target she came from. She can even somewhat take on some world bosses (not the really hard ones, though, she's a thief, not a brawler). And well, when I say "she", it's a metaphor. I did it. But I did it with THAT character, over almost 4 years. I'm not changing her into a cat just because I love stealth.

I'll McGyver this. I'll make do. Things will change, but I will never, EVER put a single skill point in that ludicrous stealth detection passive. It has no use whatsoever in PvE and I don't PvP at all. That's 3 extra skill points for me, then. That's the whole worth of this racial change. And I'm really crossed about it.

Cundu_Ertur

Uryel wrote: »

I will never, EVER put a single skill point in that ludicrous stealth detection passive. It has no use whatsoever in PvE and I don't PvP at all. That's 3 extra skill points for me, then. That's the whole worth of this racial change. And I'm really crossed about it.

Concur, and the same.

BlueRaven

Uryel wrote: »

Nevolent wrote: »

I have also developed an emotional attachment with my characters and I don't want to switch, but I know that if I don't it will bug me a lot because I don't like being in disadvantage. Well ofc some ppl don't care about racials and I wish I didn't either but I do and if I stay with my inferior race it will haunt me.

I am an artist myself I draw a lot and if someone broke my tools I wouldn't use the broken ones... I would go buy new tools, same as my old ones! No one would use broken tools guys if he could buy new.

Just commenting on the parts I put in bold.

I too have grown attached to my character. I've seen her grow. She started as a wimpy little archer that could barely take a hit. She learnt to craft her own gear, food an potions. She grew stronger, and mastered the shadows. She can breeze through a delve or public dungeon and hit only whatever target she came from. She can even somewhat take on some world bosses (not the really hard ones, though, she's a thief, not a brawler). And well, when I say "she", it's a metaphor. I did it. But I did it with THAT character, over almost 4 years. I'm not changing her into a cat just because I love stealth.

I'll McGyver this. I'll make do. Things will change, but I will never, EVER put a single skill point in that ludicrous stealth detection passive. It has no use whatsoever in PvE and I don't PvP at all. That's 3 extra skill points for me, then. That's the whole worth of this racial change. And I'm really crossed about it.

Same. As far as I am concerned the real passive is just 3 extra skill points.

anadandy

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

I will never, EVER put a single skill point in that ludicrous stealth detection passive. It has no use whatsoever in PvE and I don't PvP at all. That's 3 extra skill points for me, then. That's the whole worth of this racial change. And I'm really crossed about it.

Concur, and the same.

Same. Looks like I can hire that crafting hireling now.

StarOfElyon

So these changes go live on Xbox NA tomorrow, right?

The_Lex

StarOfElyon wrote: »

So these changes go live on Xbox NA tomorrow, right?

No. They go live on PC tomorrow. Might be a few more weeks for console.

Uryel

Taken from another thread :

Notarikon777 wrote: »

My greatest ESO gameplay moment :
I was in Shornhelm , (my favorite hunting ground..) in the local weapon shop. My backpack is full of stolen items, nearly 14k gold in value, and there are 3 patrolling guard in the shop... I finished my stealing-spree, i started to go out, to the Outlaws refuge.. and a strongbox just spawned right before my eyes ! "Hmm..just one more, and I've finished.. just one more.." Of course I weared Night silence and Night mother's embrace, and I'm a bosmer, so what could go wrong, right ?
I watched the patroling npcs, and the guards, took my position, and started to pick the lock on the strongbox... and yes ! I grabbed the loot... and a shiver went trough me, because one of the shop guards passed by me in arm's reach, nearly stepped on me !!! Didn't notice me...
By the love of Y'ffre, I did it !!! Praise the bosmer ancestors ! So I just leaved the shop with the swag, and a cheesy smile, like a boss !
And.. the Devs says it's over now.. And this is my main character. Main means for me a most loved, the first born, not the strongest. I'm afraid I have to change my master thief title for something else

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam : THIS is what we are talking about. This is what we want. We don't care about ganking people in PvP. Some of us don't even do PvP. I only went to Cyrodiil for the skyshards. We don't care for dodge rolling to get more penetration, or whatever. This. this is what we created our charazcters, and this is what we want to play.

Toc de Malsvi

The_Lex wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

So these changes go live on Xbox NA tomorrow, right?

No. They go live on PC tomorrow. Might be a few more weeks for console.

Should be precisely two weeks after PC release.

Malada

Uryel wrote: »

Taken from another thread :

Notarikon777 wrote: »

My greatest ESO gameplay moment :
I was in Shornhelm , (my favorite hunting ground..) in the local weapon shop. My backpack is full of stolen items, nearly 14k gold in value, and there are 3 patrolling guard in the shop... I finished my stealing-spree, i started to go out, to the Outlaws refuge.. and a strongbox just spawned right before my eyes ! "Hmm..just one more, and I've finished.. just one more.." Of course I weared Night silence and Night mother's embrace, and I'm a bosmer, so what could go wrong, right ?
I watched the patroling npcs, and the guards, took my position, and started to pick the lock on the strongbox... and yes ! I grabbed the loot... and a shiver went trough me, because one of the shop guards passed by me in arm's reach, nearly stepped on me !!! Didn't notice me...
By the love of Y'ffre, I did it !!! Praise the bosmer ancestors ! So I just leaved the shop with the swag, and a cheesy smile, like a boss !
And.. the Devs says it's over now.. And this is my main character. Main means for me a most loved, the first born, not the strongest. I'm afraid I have to change my master thief title for something else

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam : THIS is what we are talking about. This is what we want. We don't care about ganking people in PvP. Some of us don't even do PvP. I only went to Cyrodiil for the skyshards. We don't care for dodge rolling to get more penetration, or whatever. This. this is what we created our charazcters, and this is what we want to play.

You know what I agree with him. I also realize it's a jab at PvP and gankers like me however you have to understand that one little Sneak bonus is only par for the course. Half the time, I run into heavily mitigated players now with gap closers and loads of snares so Sniping them doesn't even work. (Esp trying to Snipe thru lag) Sneak bonus itself only helps a little and if they have good burst heals that will quickly turn into a long fight anyways.

If you want to let them have their PvE friendly bonuses back let'em have'em however I also feel it's wrong to punish ppl for being good at PvP and it's wrong to reward others who fail to learn from their mistakes or do important runs alone. It's probably some of the Corporate Guilds who wanted this done and we all know why. However one reason I'm ok with what he's saying is because ppl like myself who have learned from the sum of our mistakes have strong builds and knowledge about how dmg and mitigation in the game actually work and this will not affect us. In addition we also a good reason now to gank more often, so thank you for that.

Ok so this is it for me I will not be back, I tried although it's going to take someone us telling them what they want to hear to fix this. Thanks for listening.

"If you are looking for Sneak attacks, I can tell you I don't have any Bosmers. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over years of playing this game. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you."

Swergdach

Uryel wrote: »

Taken from another thread :

Notarikon777 wrote: »

My greatest ESO gameplay moment :
I was in Shornhelm , (my favorite hunting ground..) in the local weapon shop. My backpack is full of stolen items, nearly 14k gold in value, and there are 3 patrolling guard in the shop... I finished my stealing-spree, i started to go out, to the Outlaws refuge.. and a strongbox just spawned right before my eyes ! "Hmm..just one more, and I've finished.. just one more.." Of course I weared Night silence and Night mother's embrace, and I'm a bosmer, so what could go wrong, right ?
I watched the patroling npcs, and the guards, took my position, and started to pick the lock on the strongbox... and yes ! I grabbed the loot... and a shiver went trough me, because one of the shop guards passed by me in arm's reach, nearly stepped on me !!! Didn't notice me...
By the love of Y'ffre, I did it !!! Praise the bosmer ancestors ! So I just leaved the shop with the swag, and a cheesy smile, like a boss !
And.. the Devs says it's over now.. And this is my main character. Main means for me a most loved, the first born, not the strongest. I'm afraid I have to change my master thief title for something else

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam : THIS is what we are talking about. This is what we want. We don't care about ganking people in PvP. Some of us don't even do PvP. I only went to Cyrodiil for the skyshards. We don't care for dodge rolling to get more penetration, or whatever. This. this is what we created our charazcters, and this is what we want to play.

Recently, I've been thinking about creating the 10th character of a Bosmer thief, since since playing Morrowind in 2002, I believed that in the TES universe Bosmers are great thieves. It is a pity that this idea will have to be abandoned. This, as well as the fact that Argonians lose resistance to poison, at a time when in the game itself (!) it is said that Argonians have resistance to poison, which leads me to believe that ZOS messing up with lore for unknown reason.

Eiron77

I will never, EVER put a single skill point in that ludicrous stealth detection passive. It has no use whatsoever in PvE and I don't PvP at all. That's 3 extra skill points for me, then. That's the whole worth of this racial change. And I'm really crossed about it.

Same. And I'm definitely not subbing or spending any further money into ESO. I thought the racial changes would be touchups for balancing, not complete ignorance of TES lore and player feedback. It's apparent they're going in a direction I don't want to be a part of.

CeaseSphire

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

wedgebert

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

From the looks of it, lore isn't really a concern. If changes fit the lore, great! If not, then just pretend it doesn't exist and ignore the fanbase.

Eiron77

wedgebert wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

From the looks of it, lore isn't really a concern. If changes fit the lore, great! If not, then just pretend it doesn't exist and ignore the fanbase.

More like, "if not then rewrite the race's description in game to support our game mechanic that contradicted the original lore/description.". Like they did with bosmers changing to be stealth detectors.
It was sooo underhanded and insulting to player feedback.

Koronach

Eiron77 wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

From the looks of it, lore isn't really a concern. If changes fit the lore, great! If not, then just pretend it doesn't exist and ignore the fanbase.

More like, "if not then rewrite the race's description in game to support our game mechanic that contradicted the original lore/description.". Like they did with bosmers changing to be stealth detectors.
It was sooo underhanded and insulting to player feedback.

I know how you feel.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

GrumpyDuckling

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Dearest ZOS,

Bosmer are AGILE (Definition: "Marked by ready ability to move with quick easy grace")
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agile

Bosmer agility isn't about moving at a top speed that is faster than other races, it's about how they are ready to perform quick movements (see: roll dodge) more easily and with grace. It doesn't make sense to give Bosmer an increase in overall movement speed when they perform a dodge roll -- that's not how agility works -- it would make much more sense to give them a reduced cost for dodge roll because they are able to perform agile movements (again, see: dodge roll) more easily than other races.

Here are the reasons why you make this change:
1) It makes sense (I shouldn't have to go beyond this, but I will).
2) It doesn't introduce PVP problems of movement speed.
3) It can be used in both PVP and PVE.
4) It's enough of a nerf to the current PTS version of Hunter's Eye that it allows you to add a flat, balanced, permanent bonus to Penetration (which makes perfect sense -- Bosmer are hunters and should excel at targeting their opponents weak spots in their armor).

Thanks for taking the time to read this and seriously consider it for the next round of PTS.
Love,
GrumpyDuckling

It seems that I wasted my time providing this feedback^ that was both lore-based and logical. Prove me wrong, ZOS?

wedgebert

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It seems that I wasted my time providing this feedback^ that was both lore-based and logical. Prove me wrong, ZOS?

Fixed that for you

But even from a lore standpoint, the change you propose makes for sense for Khajiit (like all the non-stamina bosmer passives do). They're the ones in lore and in-games that were known for their acrobatics (which dodge-roll would seem to be a part of). Khajiit didn't get really stealthy until acrobatics was removed and they needed a new best skill.

SpringEternal

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

(Also, I'm pretty sure werewolves take more damage from poison, no?)

Cundu_Ertur

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

SpringEternal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

That's debatable, and I disagree. My point is that the premise (races need to be completely unique despite the lore) is flawed. We could argue about changes made as a consequence of that faulty premise, but I'm suggesting our energy would be better spent challenging the premise in the first place.

Cundu_Ertur

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

That's debatable, and I disagree. My point is that the premise (races need to be completely unique despite the lore) is flawed. We could argue about changes made as a consequence of that faulty premise, but I'm suggesting our energy would be better spent challenging the premise in the first place.

In 2/3 of the games where there were such things as disease and poison resistance, Bosmer had no poison resistance and Argonians had 100% poison resistance. Bosmer only had disease resistance in those 2 games, which Argonians also had. The outlier is Skyrim where Bosmer had disease resistance again, but added poison resistance. Bosmer have a very, very weak claim to poison resistance of any kind. Argonians have a very strong one. Ideally, and what I've proposed in the relevant thread, Argonians should have both, with immunity to the poison effect while Bosmer should have only the disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect.

I do agree with you that the 'every part of every passive must be completely unique' concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.

SpringEternal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

CeaseSphire wrote: »

Might be a broken record here if someone has already stated this my bad. But according to lore it shouldn't Wood elves be resilient to disease damage and Argonians shrug off poison? Why would you change that and destroy your own lore?

Whole reason why I made most of my werewolves wood elves is to negate the disease weakness. *throws up hands*

Why not both? According to the lore, both Argonians and Bosmer have resistances to both disease and poison. Don't buy into the false dichotomy.

This is true, but the Bosmer have a stronger claim to disease resistance, and the Argonians a stronger claim to poison resistance. If the dichotomy was going to be introduced, then the racials for disease and poison should have gone to the other race from what we see now.

That's debatable, and I disagree. My point is that the premise (races need to be completely unique despite the lore) is flawed. We could argue about changes made as a consequence of that faulty premise, but I'm suggesting our energy would be better spent challenging the premise in the first place.

In 2/3 of the games where there were such things as disease and poison resistance, Bosmer had no poison resistance and Argonians had 100% poison resistance. Bosmer only had disease resistance in those 2 games, which Argonians also had. The outlier is Skyrim where Bosmer had disease resistance again, but added poison resistance. Bosmer have a very, very weak claim to poison resistance of any kind. Argonians have a very strong one. Ideally, and what I've proposed in the relevant thread, Argonians should have both, with immunity to the poison effect while Bosmer should have only the disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect.

I do agree with you that the 'every part of every passive must be completely unique' concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.

Alright, so I guess you do want to debate about this.

Argonians in Skyrim had 0% poison resistance and 100% disease resistance, which gives a precedent for the most recent changes. More importantly, passives are not the be all end all of lore. Historical events, mythology, quest dialogue, etc. are important too.

Argonians are the only reptilian race, and they have a distinct origin in the Hist that sets them apart from all the other races. Everybody else descends from the Ehlnofey. Given this, it makes sense that Argonians would be more resistant to diseases that spread among men and mer. Then there's the Knahaten Flu. Argonians are carriers of a disease that doesn't harm them, but hurts everybody else. The theory is that the Hist wielded the disease like a weapon to protect it's territory. That's epic . And unique to Argonians. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to come across any in-game reference to Bosmer disease resistance outside of their passives.

As for poison resistance...Before the Green Pact, Bosmer constantly shifted form in order to try and adapt to the hostile environment of the Ooze. They struggled to survive, and were seen as prey to the wildlife around them. Then Y'ffre took the chaos of the Ooze and made the Green. In exchange for Y'frre's patronage and protection, Bosmer promised to protect all plant life in the Valenwood. And so Y'ffre granted them their permanent hardy form. It makes total sense that Bosmer, aka the Tree-Sap people, have poison resistance. Y'ffre blessed them with an affinity for nature, and it's a necessary adaptation given their habitat. The Green Pact is arguably the most significant piece of Bosmeri culture, and poison resistance is currently the only reference to their connection to nature in their passives.

Again, just to re-emphasize, I'm not arguing that Bosmer should be the only ones to have poison resistance. The Green and the Hist give Argonians and Bosmer equally strong claims to poison resistance, imo. They also both have quests in ESO that explicitly mention their resistance to poison. They both have a weird connection to weird ancient sentient trees, and that's a commonality I personally find really intriguing. It's actually one of the reasons I believe the devs single-minded pursuit of uniqueness is misguided. I think the ways that the races are alike has as much merit as what sets them apart.