Combat Update in U21 - A New Approach

ATreeGnome

I'm actually really excited to see another balance pass on racial passives. I feel like ZoS did a really good job last time there was a major change to racial balance and I feel pretty confident that they will do even better this time. I am concerned, however, about maintaining racial balance moving forward after this update. As the meta shifts from update to update some races will inevitably benefit and some will suffer as a result of changes in other parts of the game. One example that comes to mind is how Redguards have pulled ahead of other stamina races for PvE DPS as the game has shifted to reduce sustain across the board while also rewarding rotations that use more light attacks. In the meantime though, there have been very few changes to attempt to keep the other stamina races in line with Redguards.

What I'm getting at is that any racial balance overhaul NEEDS to be followed up by minor but frequent adjustments or we will end up in the same situation where one race tends to pull ahead of the others in each role while others become less and less viable.

@ZOS_RobGarrett Is there currently a plan to regularly re-adjust/re-visit racial balance as a followup to this racial balance pass?

Aixy

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

Maura_Neysa

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-

Yes 5 is. Also the game is made for Console as well. There are no more buttons

2) Fix Animation Canceling.-

ZoS has repeated stated this isnt an issue. As well as many players believing its an important part of player skill progression. And honestly, other than actual Block canceling which isnt used all that often, it just comes naturally. To the point where my issue is needing to slow down because I go to fast.

3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Yes, yes this is what ZoS needs to do. I hope this is what they mean when they say they aren't going to do much with U21

Shantu

Sometimes when pursuing a vision, we fail to see the obvious. In other words, please don't lose sight of what people actually enjoy...as opposed to what you think they should enjoy.

Many are still disgusted from the gut punching "vision" called Nerfmire.

Elsonso

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

I think 5 slots and the Ultimate are fine. It took me a while to get used to it, after the button-palooza that is WoW.

I wish they would fix animation canceling, but as has already been said, they decided it was a feature, so it won't get fixed. I get it. The game would be much less dynamic, but they really don't teach people how to use it, and I am sure many don't use it effectively. It really isn't necessary for most content.

DLC and fixes are not mutually exclusive. They can do both.

Arato

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Maura_Neysa

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Interesting choices yes, the trouble with race right now is that there is no interesting choice. Its Argonian support, Redgaurd stam, Dark Elf mag or GTFO.....
It should be more like MagDK Dark Elf,, MagSorc Altmer, Magplar Breton , MagDen Nord, MagNB Argonian or something close to that. Make it so that what is important is the combination. Not just whether you are mag or stam

irswat

I hope they do this right. Ashes of Creation looks decent and I learned how to cancel my ESO + subscription last night.

ccfeeling

I dont mind if combat team gonna change the race passives , just offer race change token to each char in the game.

Fair deal.

maciopa

irswat wrote: »

I hope they do this right. (...) I learned how to cancel my ESO + subscription last night.

I just did that too. I will keep paying on a monthly basis only if they actually buff racials or reshape them in-plus, instead of destroying them...
I hate when the game is being nerfed just because a cry out of a small number of ppl who play PvP and do that inefficiently so they blame class/racial mechanics rather than their lack of skills. Such nerfs destroyed SWTOR in the past. Now it seems ESO is also following that slide...

Arato

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Interesting choices yes, the trouble with race right now is that there is no interesting choice. Its Argonian support, Redgaurd stam, Dark Elf mag or GTFO.....
It should be more like MagDK Dark Elf,, MagSorc Altmer, Magplar Breton , MagDen Nord, MagNB Argonian or something close to that. Make it so that what is important is the combination. Not just whether you are mag or stam

Yeah that's what I'm trying to say magicka you should be able to go altmer, dunmer breton all viable, maybe slight leanings towards some races based on the types of damage they do like you said MagDK Dunmer, Magsorc Altmer, Stam you'd have Redguard, Orc, Khajiit, Bosmer, with bosmer and khajiit not having as much sustain maybe but having that stealthy/burst damage bonus (maybe something like Bosmer do extra damage when more than 6m away from their target or something to encourage bow use) Tanks, Nord, Argonian, Imperial, Orc Healers Argonian, Breton.. something like that.. what I don't want is every race equally capable of every role that homogenizes all the races and makes things boring just to appease special snowflakes who want to make Redguard mages and Altmer warriors and such.

firedrgn

Pastas wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

How about a magic bow. I have been really good this year.

You already have it, it is called destruction staff.

You relize thats two differant words right.

Vapirko

lordrichter wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I noticed a certain regularity / trend when it comes to patches so I would not be surprised if "new approach" is the old approach with different name slapped on it:

ZOS nerfs stuff to take away our progression / power in the name of balance and adds more CP cap to have a feeling that we actually gain power (when in reality our characters lose their power). This was mostly noticeable in Morrowind update when they nerfed a lot of CP & sustain. But it also happened in the past. Hybrids are not a "thing" any longer, Sap tanks are pretty much dead (the most fun I had in a game as a NB tank) etc.

Well... Yes.

I know what people expect... buff, buff, buff. Another famous game did that and backed themselves into a corner. They eventually had to fix that, and it was a major earthquake in the game when they did.

So, yes, they need to take something from over-performing parts of the game. I expect that this will continue.

I think that there is no doubt that some people will be totally dismayed by what they are going to roll out in the next major Update. The pass over races will probably decimate builds. Naturally, the builds are only "decimated" from the perspective of the people using the build. Everyone not invested in that particular build will wonder what all the fuss is about.

• When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role.
  
• The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized.
  
• Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up.
  
• The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

This scares the hell out of me. This sounds like racial homogenization. The last thing I want is racial homogenization in this game. I really want race to be more than a cosmetic decision, but I fear that the "unique flavor" will be cosmetic and not reflect any game play considerations.

I want a mix of races so that some are better at one attribute than the others, including health. Yes, I am one of the crazy ones that would actually like to see them refactor the game so that there are three attributes Stamina, Magicka, and Heath, instead of the two we have today.

I want there to be races that are good for tanking, but not as good for healing, and have other races that are better at healing than tanking. Differences are good.

I expect ZOS to homogenize the races simply because they probably have an analysis showing that people pick the wrong class for what they want to do, get frustrated, and leave. If that happens, then it would probably be better if the race was just a cosmetic choice, like the rest of the character appearance, and put everything into the class and class skills. Simplify the combat part of the game down to class and item sets and leave the rest to cosmetics. I will be very sad if this happen.

I am preparing myself for being quite sad with what they come out with in 2019. But, they aren't asking me. I'm not a Racial Representative.

Well look at it this way. BiS races are already demanded for all roles. There are just a handful of played races in PvP and PvE. So in terms of homgeoniazation things are already pretty bad. If anything you’re going to see more races around even if a few traits are being selected as BiS. But honestly how is that different from everyone using Redguard for stamina DPS anyway? In one instance everyone plays the same race with the same traits. In the upcoming instance, at worst you’ll see a variety of races with the same traits, and at best it will lead to some interesting combinations of traits and more variation based on playstyle. Unfortunately for PvE, there will always be a top performer when it comes to things like parses, it’s unavoidable and people will gravitate towards it even if it’s not really necessary for 90% of players. In PvP I’m actually kind of excited for it as it hopefully means a little more breathing room when it comes to builds. For example I’d love to see a race like orc retaining its unique speed passive but then the ability to decide whether I want extra stamina recovery or more max Stam or more melee damage or whatever. It will have to be done well though so who knows.

IZZEFlameLash

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Yeah build sure is important with everyone running the same skillsets basically for any particular weapon/class setup.

Arato

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Yeah build sure is important with everyone running the same skillsets basically for any particular weapon/class setup.

There's always going to be meta builds or cookie cutter builds, sure, but it's still more interesting than having all skills available at all times and the deciding factor is how many keyboard shortcuts you can macro and frankly a lot of redundant skills that the only difference in them is that they're on different cooldowns.

Somewhere

I mean ultimately I don't think racial homogenization is bad per se, but rather how it's done. As it stands the racial passives are already pretty lame, with a few exceptions like redguard adrenaline rush, imperial red diamond, and argonian resourceful. These are passives that actively determine how you play your character, and while flat stat bonuses do that as well, the impact is significantly less and limited more to what spec you play, but not how you play it.

Let me be more specific, I do not necessarily see a problem with a nord magicka sorcerer keeping up with an altmer one. Keeping up mind you, not excelling or matching. But I think the nord should have to adjust their play style to a degree. Ideally, your race should matter and it should serve as a way to differentiate how you play your spec vs another player with the exact same spec. As it stands there really isn't actually that much different between any of races, especially for damage dealers. You're either first place, dealing a lot of damage, or a distant last, with very little middle ground.

I really think races either need passives that require more active effort on the player side but are more generalized in their application (eg. Argonian resourceful passive) or we need fully active skills, like racial ultimates.

Aixy

irswat wrote: »

I hope they do this right. Ashes of Creation looks decent and I learned how to cancel my ESO + subscription last night.

1) I'm waiting for Ashes of Creation too !!! so much hype !

2) After +4 years i did the same: No more eso plus here.-

Aixy

@Maura_Neysa but this is PC... and we paid for a PC game.....

Xvorg

Aixy wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa but this is PC... and we paid for a PC game.....

No, we paid for a game that was going to be launched on consoles and PC, and that was to be played in a big mega server.

If you want to play a game with more buttons, just pick anyone in the market different from this one.

5 skills + 1 ulti + 2 bars is more than OK

Aixy

Xvorg wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa but this is PC... and we paid for a PC game.....

No, we paid for a game that was going to be launched on consoles and PC, and that was to be played in a big mega server.

If you want to play a game with more buttons, just pick anyone in the market different from this one.

5 skills + 1 ulti + 2 bars is more than OK

1) Sorry if my english is not perfect.-
2) You wrote "on consoles and PC" in that order but DLC's always hit PC first and LATER on consoles.-
3) I used to play Aion....and there you have ALOT of skill slots.-
4) "Big mega fail server" ?.-

Rungar

they could always add a passive slot that you can slot but cant activate. You dont really get a full skill but it would have its uses and strategy.

Xvorg

Aixy wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa but this is PC... and we paid for a PC game.....

No, we paid for a game that was going to be launched on consoles and PC, and that was to be played in a big mega server.

If you want to play a game with more buttons, just pick anyone in the market different from this one.

5 skills + 1 ulti + 2 bars is more than OK

1) Sorry if my english is not perfect.-
2) You wrote "on consoles and PC" in that order but DLC's always hit PC first and LATER on consoles.-
3) I used to play Aion....and there you have ALOT of skill slots.-
4) "Big mega fail server" ?.-

Well, since launch it has been said that PC is the beta tester for console, so there's no way to change that. You can like it or dislike it, but that is not gonna change.

karios525

Well as Zos neither care nor listen to their player base, and are definitely too incompetent to fix their bugs expect a heavy handed approach to racial changes, watch how many more players quit the game. Just wish the next true, proper Elder Scrolls game would come out so I could leave this travesty of a game behind

MLGProPlayer

Aixy wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

I hope they do this right. Ashes of Creation looks decent and I learned how to cancel my ESO + subscription last night.

1) I'm waiting for Ashes of Creation too !!! so much hype !

2) After +4 years i did the same: No more eso plus here.-

AoC looks terrible. It's just a quick cash grab scam. They've collected a ton of money from their Kickstarter campaign, "used it" to create a game with no content, are now selling $75-375 preorder packs, and will tell players to be patient and keep paying subs so they can add actual content when the game launches.

It looks like a classic scam. I hope too many people don't fall for it. The MMO industry is in such a sad state that people are regularly getting hyped about Kickstarter scams and Korean P2W shovelware.

SugaComa

Turelus wrote: »

Interesting... We'll still have the Dunmer Master Race though right? Please?

Thanks Rob, these are the kinds of updates which help give people an idea where game direction is going.

Edit: Whilst looking at racial balancing can you please go and take a look at the Orc Craftsman skill. Whilst it's awesome for new characters it's the only racial passive which doesn't remain useful throughout the game (once you've leveled all crafting skills it's useless).

High elf is almost as bad ... 1% XP gain ... Once your over cp it's a pointless skill

At least Bretons and imperials get decent bonuses ...

IZZEFlameLash

Arato wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Yeah build sure is important with everyone running the same skillsets basically for any particular weapon/class setup.

There's always going to be meta builds or cookie cutter builds, sure, but it's still more interesting than having all skills available at all times and the deciding factor is how many keyboard shortcuts you can macro and frankly a lot of redundant skills that the only difference in them is that they're on different cooldowns.

Point was that we all use the same skill sets more or less regardless of builds. We cannot have variety. Might as well have all skills available. We cannot specialize in the way older games of this genre offered. I cannot specialize in one skill for example to kill people. So yeah...

Arato

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Yeah build sure is important with everyone running the same skillsets basically for any particular weapon/class setup.

There's always going to be meta builds or cookie cutter builds, sure, but it's still more interesting than having all skills available at all times and the deciding factor is how many keyboard shortcuts you can macro and frankly a lot of redundant skills that the only difference in them is that they're on different cooldowns.

Point was that we all use the same skill sets more or less regardless of builds. We cannot have variety. Might as well have all skills available. We cannot specialize in the way older games of this genre offered. I cannot specialize in one skill for example to kill people. So yeah...

We don't necessarily use the same skills though, there are different builds, a handful for each class and different builds for PVE and PVP.. Better than just who has the best macro autohotkeys for their rotation.

and frankly youy might as well just go to another game if you want World of Warcraft style 8 hotbars bs. The limited action skillset was a deliberate design choice in this game, it suits consoles which is a big part of the playerbase,, and frankly I prefer it it's a big reason why I play the game. I get really tired of having to keybind 80 f'ing redundant skills on different cooldowns. If that's what you want. just go away, please. Don't suggest ruining this game, just go back to WoW.

Minyassa

Please accomplish your racial balances through buffing those that lag behind without nerfing any who already excel. Thank you.

FrancisCrawford

ccfeeling wrote: »

I dont mind if combat team gonna change the race passives , just offer race change token to each char in the game.

Fair deal.

Name-and-race change tokens are 30% off, this weekend only.

Coincidence? Honestly, it probably is. But it's an amusing one.

Amdar_Godkiller

CyrusArya wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

I see a nerf to redguards and a lot of angry sorcs in our future.

No way, Redguard has been nerfed over and over. As it stands, Redguard has a slight advantage in PvE while being a very balanced race in PvP. The better route would be to buff the PvE sustain of some other races. Redguard is ideally the power level other races should be at.

The only races which are actually overloaded when it comes to stats, especially in a PvP context, are Orc and Argonian.

This is how I personally see racial strength:

Overtuned- Orc, Argonian
Well tuned- Redguard, High Elf, Dark Elf, Khajiit, Wood Elf, Breton
Undertuned- Imperial, Nord

LOL. How is high elf not overloaded. (interesting term to use there as wel. Quite telling reallyl)