Combat Update in U21 - A New Approach

John_Falstaff

@FrancisCrawford , in my view, that passive's place is in Legerdemain skill tree, very well may move it there.

Skullstachio

ORCS, ORCS, ORCS, ORCS.

Ethyarion

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Thank You @ZOS_RobGarrett for update,

Current racial passives influence players to choose race for their role,

For Example:

PVE Magicka DPS mostly chooses from Altmer/Dumner or Breton, why shall not choose Khajit?, because Carnage passive will be useless and its good to miss. Reaper's March have lot of Khajit NPC mages.

PVE Tank mostly chooses from Argonian, Imperial, Nord or Orc, why shall not choose Bomser?, because its racial passives are not useful for tanking.

Racial passives should be balanced in way that every race can be used for any role (Magicka/Stamina DPS, Tank or Healer)

Totally agree.

The other issue is that how is balance achieved with such disparity amongst racials? Do you balance around the Altmer / Dunmer Magika user to the degree that those of other races are either terribly sub-par or feel compelled to race change to be viable?

When a small number of races are the defacto choice then there's no divesity of choice at all. I can only see the race rebalance as a positive.

aeowulf

Please can you look at the underplayed class-role combinations. There are some in this game that are clearly causing issues elsewhere - for example with only 2 classes being very commonly played tanks, you see a lot of fake tanks in pug finder. 60% of classes are 'pushed' away from maybe their desired role. Looking at the completion stats for each class in each role for vDLC dungeons should give a very good idea of which classes are underperforming and which are over performing in each role - and by underperfoming/overperforming i'm not just talking about statisitcally, but the whole combination including power vs ease, enjoyment etc.

SaintSubwayy

aeowulf wrote: »

Please can you look at the underplayed class-role combinations. There are some in this game that are clearly causing issues elsewhere - for example with only 2 classes being very commonly played tanks, you see a lot of fake tanks in pug finder. 60% of classes are 'pushed' away from maybe their desired role. Looking at the completion stats for each class in each role for vDLC dungeons should give a very good idea of which classes are underperforming and which are over performing in each role - and by underperfoming/overperforming i'm not just talking about statisitcally, but the whole combination including power vs ease, enjoyment etc.

The race someone uses has absolutly nothing to do with them beeing "Fake Tank" or "fake healers".
I know Tanks and healers who run as Kahjit, because they want to be a kitty, and they got their *** together, like many other tanks and healer will never be able to.

The Problem of beeing "fake" tank or healer is within the gear, and the skills used. And ofc the understanding of their role.
But has nothing to do with their class sry.

Bevik

grizzly375 wrote: »

I'm just sick of nerfs already. Started playing a while ago, and rolled a Stam DK not because it was "meta" but because I like the feel of a heavy "in-your-face" melee toon. Rolled a Nord (because that's the race I want to play) and rapidly found out performance was WAY behind RG - so I scrapped him and rerolled. As updates came along, DK sustain and DPS dwindled to the point where this toon (my first and favorite) is now parked as a crafter.

Moved on to a nightblade just to get stam DPS into acceptable levels, and got there, but don't like the feel of the class. Parked.

Tried stamden and magden, both have constantly been "tweaked" and constantly gutted - now both parked.

Rolled magsorc and stamsorc (the latter just to try werewolf) - both suck, and get worse with every patch.

So, now I'm basically only playing Templars - which are only playable because they recently actually got buffed.

So, PLEASE, DON'T NERF the races that are working well now. Instead, improve the passives for all the others to "level the field."

I'd really like a system where the races were primarily cosmetic, and gave some MINOR lore-based buff (like weapon/armor line xp gain + 1 other thing - drink/food duration, for example), then move the HUGE resource impacting effects (like RG's stamina bonuses) into a morphable "focus" line available to any/all races. You can still "play how you want," want to be a Stam DPS High Elf - great - choose the "Berserker" trait line that gives + to stam/stam recovery, etc. Want to be a Dunmer tank - choose the "Guardian" trait line that gives improved health, tri-stat recovery, maybe some inherent reactive healing. Want to be a Khajit magicka DPS - take the "Battle Mage" line that give increased magicka/recovery, elemental damage, etc. Healers take the "Medic" trait line - increased Magicka/tri-stat recovery, outgoing healing, etc...

What you asking for is a complete overhaul of the actual system. I think won't happen but I hope I'm wrong.

ATomiX96

Dont get hyped, before you see what they actualy end up doing.

Chilly-McFreeze

Ethyarion wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Thank You @ZOS_RobGarrett for update,

Current racial passives influence players to choose race for their role,

For Example:

PVE Magicka DPS mostly chooses from Altmer/Dumner or Breton, why shall not choose Khajit?, because Carnage passive will be useless and its good to miss. Reaper's March have lot of Khajit NPC mages.

PVE Tank mostly chooses from Argonian, Imperial, Nord or Orc, why shall not choose Bomser?, because its racial passives are not useful for tanking.

Racial passives should be balanced in way that every race can be used for any role (Magicka/Stamina DPS, Tank or Healer)

Totally agree.

The other issue is that how is balance achieved with such disparity amongst racials? Do you balance around the Altmer / Dunmer Magika user to the degree that those of other races are either terribly sub-par or feel compelled to race change to be viable?

When a small number of races are the defacto choice then there's no divesity of choice at all. I can only see the race rebalance as a positive.

Always wanted to be on par with Redguards on my Dunmer stam toons. Make it happen. ;-)

Ethyarion

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ethyarion wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Thank You @ZOS_RobGarrett for update,

Current racial passives influence players to choose race for their role,

For Example:

PVE Magicka DPS mostly chooses from Altmer/Dumner or Breton, why shall not choose Khajit?, because Carnage passive will be useless and its good to miss. Reaper's March have lot of Khajit NPC mages.

PVE Tank mostly chooses from Argonian, Imperial, Nord or Orc, why shall not choose Bomser?, because its racial passives are not useful for tanking.

Racial passives should be balanced in way that every race can be used for any role (Magicka/Stamina DPS, Tank or Healer)

Totally agree.

The other issue is that how is balance achieved with such disparity amongst racials? Do you balance around the Altmer / Dunmer Magika user to the degree that those of other races are either terribly sub-par or feel compelled to race change to be viable?

When a small number of races are the defacto choice then there's no divesity of choice at all. I can only see the race rebalance as a positive.

Always wanted to be on par with Redguards on my Dunmer stam toons. Make it happen. ;-)

I have a Bosmer StamBlade, a Dunmer Templar Tank and a Dunmer Stamina Warden amongst others so I'm actually looking forward to the rebalace even if my Altmer MagBlade might lose some superiority.

Qbiken

Ethyarion wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Thank You @ZOS_RobGarrett for update,

Current racial passives influence players to choose race for their role,

For Example:

PVE Magicka DPS mostly chooses from Altmer/Dumner or Breton, why shall not choose Khajit?, because Carnage passive will be useless and its good to miss. Reaper's March have lot of Khajit NPC mages.

PVE Tank mostly chooses from Argonian, Imperial, Nord or Orc, why shall not choose Bomser?, because its racial passives are not useful for tanking.

Racial passives should be balanced in way that every race can be used for any role (Magicka/Stamina DPS, Tank or Healer)

Totally agree.

The other issue is that how is balance achieved with such disparity amongst racials? Do you balance around the Altmer / Dunmer Magika user to the degree that those of other races are either terribly sub-par or feel compelled to race change to be viable?

When a small number of races are the defacto choice then there's no divesity of choice at all. I can only see the race rebalance as a positive.

You mix up the term viable with competitive

I´ll bet my account that you can complete all content in this game with any race, class and role combination you can imagine. Most people don´t mind what race, class role combo you play, as long as you can perform that role properly, but you can´t expect the competitive part of the player base to accept your"off-meta".

Banana

I hope they are going to be giving a free race respec when they drop this. As im sure some people wont be happy.

ATomiX96

Banana wrote: »

I hope they are going to be giving a free race respec when they drop this. As im sure some people wont be happy.

dude thats just advanced marketing strategy to get tryhards to spend 30€ on a race-change token.

Juhasow

Banana wrote: »

I hope they are going to be giving a free race respec when they drop this. As im sure some people wont be happy.

Well it's very possible somwhere around end of the year and new life festival event there will be 50% discount on race change same as in previous year.

aeowulf

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Please can you look at the underplayed class-role combinations. There are some in this game that are clearly causing issues elsewhere - for example with only 2 classes being very commonly played tanks, you see a lot of fake tanks in pug finder. 60% of classes are 'pushed' away from maybe their desired role. Looking at the completion stats for each class in each role for vDLC dungeons should give a very good idea of which classes are underperforming and which are over performing in each role - and by underperfoming/overperforming i'm not just talking about statisitcally, but the whole combination including power vs ease, enjoyment etc.

The race someone uses has absolutly nothing to do with them beeing "Fake Tank" or "fake healers".
I know Tanks and healers who run as Kahjit, because they want to be a kitty, and they got their *** together, like many other tanks and healer will never be able to.

The Problem of beeing "fake" tank or healer is within the gear, and the skills used. And ofc the understanding of their role.
But has nothing to do with their class sry.

No need to apologise. Also not entirely sure why you think I was talking about races when I didn't mention them once?

I would disagee though - Fake tanks exist because there are not enough tanks. All 5 classes have at least one 'decent' DPS role yet some classes are comparatively lacking when it comes to the role of healer or tank. Want more tanks? Work out why not many people play tanks and fix it. My personal opinion is a combination of tanking being vastly different to all other games (people are not used to it or don't like it) and the obvious of non-desiability of some classes in that role at end-game. (those folks may switch to DPS because they have invested time in that toon already, making the problem worse)

mb10

I think Argonian is the best race because the passives best utilise the lore of Argonians

Every race has deep lore and their passives could emphasise that.

For example, Khajiit are known for their sharp claws and some can even fight without a weapon. Therefore a passive for them could be within 3 meters (melee range) their claws cause a bleed damage or anything thats in relation to their claws the same way Argonian blood and immune system makes them great alchemists and potion consumers.

I feel like some races have a great racial bonus but others just need that love, no need to nerf anything imo just buff others

Zippy81

I'm just worried that the lore part in passives will disappear thanks to the ever continuing moaning about meta builds, who is best at what etc.
I agree that some of the passives should be changed to give more ways to play. I'd love a Nord magicka damage dealer focusing on ice damage. Khajiit and orc healers should be also playable. Even a sturdy Breton should be viable as a tank.
Not that there are more serious problems in the game. These loading screens are really annoying. A nice guildie left the game because of them.

NBrookus

aeowulf wrote: »

I would disagee though - Fake tanks exist because there are not enough tanks. All 5 classes have at least one 'decent' DPS role yet some classes are comparatively lacking when it comes to the role of healer or tank. Want more tanks? Work out why not many people play tanks and fix it.

I came into this game wanting to tank. Other than in dungeons/trials (or pvp) tanking is terribly sub par for content. I didn't mind completing content slower, but when I watched people breeze past me it constantly felt like I was making wrong choices.

ESO supports a wide variety of archetypes above and beyond tank-heal-dps. "Heavy Fighter" is very viable just like "Rogue" is even though it doesn't show up in the dungeon finder. Then you get into dungeons and all of the sudden you are asked to squish into the trinity where faster damage and avoid the one shots wins over everything. Or you go to PVP, where raw dps is suddenly the wrong approach.

The transitions between game modes are rough, and while experienced players will swap gear, etc. without worrying about it, new ones will think they are doing something wrong without knowing how to fix it.

Twohothardware

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford , in my view, that passive's place is in Legerdemain skill tree, very well may move it there.

That's exactly where the Stealthy passive should be because outside of Nighblades with Cloak the other Classes do not benefit from the Stealthy Racial passive.

Valykc

I appreciate all the effort but all these updates to combat are worthless if the game still performs terribly. Please check performance as well and see how you can improve that. I love the game but I actually want to be able to play it and currently there are many instances where the game is bordline unplayable, unless you enjoy slideshows.

Lord-Otto

Hm. More open communication?
AWESOME!
=D

bardx86

So you are going to nerf my elf mag sorc yet again? sounds soooooo promising.

maboleth

Zeni, whatever you do, please don't break the lore. Big old Orc cannot be a sneaky thief. Nor wood elf a mighty berserker. There's a reason Elves fiddle with magic, small guys with thievery and sneaking and "big guys" with physical abilities.

Arato

I hope that they DON'T make "every race equally capable at every role" it kind of destroys the elder scrolls feel that the best casters were Altmer, Breton, Dunmer, best archers were Bosmer, best melee were Redguard and Khajiit and Orc, best stealthers were Bosmer and Khajiit, etc.

Only thing I'd maybe like to see is balance between the races traditionally chosen for certain roles like with magicka DPS Breton lags behind Altmer and Dunmer, and for Stamina Bosmer lags behind Redguard and Orc, and Nord lags behind Argonian and Imperial as a tank.

JobooAGS

I hope they do away with all % based racial passives (except for crit, healing recieved, dmg reduced) and give them static numbers.

Edit: exceptions added

FrancisCrawford

Twohothardware wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford , in my view, that passive's place is in Legerdemain skill tree, very well may move it there.

That's exactly where the Stealthy passive should be because outside of Nighblades with Cloak the other Classes do not benefit from the Stealthy Racial passive.

Actually, one can do a great deal in stealth without ever casting Cloak. Admittedly, if one is going to optimize a character for stealth it might as well be a nightblade, because of both Concealed Weapon and Cloak. But reduced stealth/detection radius is a wonderful thing.

FrancisCrawford

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford , in my view, that passive's place is in Legerdemain skill tree, very well may move it there.

I'd be happy if the Stealthy passive were more easily accessible to more characters -- starting with my magblades, which I don't enjoy playing in any other way, after the devastating nerfs of Murkmire. The medium armor mismatch wouldn't be such a big deal then, because thieves don't need to be elite at combat. But that PLUS the lack of the Stealthy passive has, in practice, kept me from using my magblades as serious thieves.

ccfeeling

Good start but not enough and you guys better make it quickly .

Current game status

Agron DK is the best tank ever , tell you what , race is always the main factor in the game and class combination .

Stam : Redguard

Mag : Dark / High elf , I found that we finally have choice .

VaxtinTheWolf

If everyone were not so DESPERATE for sustain as we are due to the changes that have been made to this game, some of those Races may still be less of a detriment for those that care about the bonuses that come with it.

We need more robust sustain options overall.

idk

Might I inform @ZOS_RobGarrett that when Zos chose to reword weapon traits all that really happened is we went from using sharpened to infused because of all the hard work and thought that went into it.

In fast, Infused is most used across the board now. Not just for DPS, but it is great for all three roles.

I am just suggesting Zos give this change a little more thought so it actually has a real effect.

Vapirko

I just hope this means they’re going to be dolling our a free race change per toon with the update. It would be really ***, but not unlikely, if they made us by race change tokens to take advantage of the new system whatever it may be.