Combat Update in U21 - A New Approach

FrancisCrawford

Wrong thread. Sorry. Comment deleted here accordingly.

Lord_Eomer

Hi @ZOS_RobGarrett

I am afraid Magicka is already on life-support, it needs help or may die.

#magickaDying as you mentioned small number of other balance changes:

A small number of other balance changes, many of which are wrapping up efforts the team took on in U20
An assortment of bug fixes

Maryal

People complain that a few races have such a racial advantage that they are the ones most people play. For these particular races, the racial passives that makes these races 'meta' will get nerfed (for the sake of 'balance'). As for the other, non-meta races, they will also experience racial passive nerfs to their more useful racial passive(s) (i.e., racial passives that would cause someone to choose that race). To compensate for these 'nerfs' all the races will see a buff to the racial passives most people consider to be their race's least useful racial passive ... passives that nobody was asking to have buffed. I'm calling it now.

BooPerScOOper

Redguard and Dunmer nerfs incoming.

Maryal wrote: »

People complain that a few races have such a racial advantage that they are the ones most people play. For these particular races, the racial passives that makes these races 'meta' will get nerfed (for the sake of 'balance'). As for the other, non-meta races, they will also experience racial passive nerfs to their more useful racial passive(s) (i.e., racial passives that would cause someone to choose that race). To compensate for these 'nerfs' all the races will see a buff to the racial passives most people consider to be their race's least useful racial passive ... passives that nobody was asking to have buffed. I'm calling it now.

You are spot on and witnessed.

katorga

Maryal wrote: »

People complain that a few races have such a racial advantage that they are the ones most people play. For these particular races, the racial passives that makes these races 'meta' will get nerfed (for the sake of 'balance'). As for the other, non-meta races, they will also experience racial passive nerfs to their more useful racial passive(s) (i.e., racial passives that would cause someone to choose that race). To compensate for these 'nerfs' all the races will see a buff to the racial passives most people consider to be their race's least useful racial passive ... passives that nobody was asking to have buffed. I'm calling it now.

Bingo. Definitely don't race change until we know what is getting ruined.

munster1404

Maryal wrote: »

People complain that a few races have such a racial advantage that they are the ones most people play. For these particular races, the racial passives that makes these races 'meta' will get nerfed (for the sake of 'balance'). As for the other, non-meta races, they will also experience racial passive nerfs to their more useful racial passive(s) (i.e., racial passives that would cause someone to choose that race). To compensate for these 'nerfs' all the races will see a buff to the racial passives most people consider to be their race's least useful racial passive ... passives that nobody was asking to have buffed. I'm calling it now.

I broke out into a cold sweat when I read this. I’m convinced that this is the step that the Devs are gonna take.

MLGProPlayer

I'm a little scared. Hopefully you guys don't just nerf some of the better performing races and call it a day.

Thanks for the communication though. Hopefully we get more updates as you have more details.

MLGProPlayer

Maryal wrote: »

People complain that a few races have such a racial advantage that they are the ones most people play. For these particular races, the racial passives that makes these races 'meta' will get nerfed (for the sake of 'balance'). As for the other, non-meta races, they will also experience racial passive nerfs to their more useful racial passive(s) (i.e., racial passives that would cause someone to choose that race). To compensate for these 'nerfs' all the races will see a buff to the racial passives most people consider to be their race's least useful racial passive ... passives that nobody was asking to have buffed. I'm calling it now.

Sounds about right. I'm more than a little scared about this. Hopefully they work closely with the class reps and actually consider their feedback.

Lord_Eomer

Currently magicka have limited options to choose suitable race from Altemer, Dunmer, Breton and Argonian.

Stamina have lot more races to choose from Khajit, Bosmer, Redguard, Orc, Nord, Argonian and Imperial

#WhereIsBalance?

MLGProPlayer

The best approach would be to get rid of combat attributes (extra magicka/stamina, magicka/stamina regen, crit damage, elemental damage, etc.). Instead, just give every race "RP" passives (like Argonian swim speed).

Getting rid of the combat passives would help tackle some of the recent power creep as well. Maybe buff CP a little bit to compensate if classes become too weak.

Alternatively, you can keep the combat attributes, but give all races the same main attributes. For example, all magicka races have +9-10% max magicka. This is the most important combat attribute as it adds a ton of DPS, making all the magicka races competitive.

Stamina races are all over the place, with some having much better passives than others.

KrishakPanettier

Any future direction that should be a component, and what is lacking in the game, is choice and consequence.

If I choose this skill, then I cannot choose that skill (not just morph skills), talking about real choices that impact a reciprocal ability. So that we all aren't everything. If I choose this Champion Skill, then I cannot choose that Champion Skill. if I choose this class or character with this ability, then I loose that benefit or ability. Perhaps it is too late for such a direction.

The skills don't need to be equalized, or made so that any class and character selection can do any role, but that true consequence of choice AND strategy-selection. I agree that if a player wants to be a Magic khajiit, there should be a roadmap to that end. I am not discouraging that type of 'balance.' Instead, I mean skills, classes, abilities, that are chosen similar to Rock Paper scissors that encourage making different choices to avoid everyone choosing "Rock" for instance.

As we surpass 900 champion points, and top 1,000, the overpower-fullness of our characters by pretty much selecting all buffs in all skill-trees, the PVE content and gap between lower level player characters become increasingly obvious. We should not be able to select all skills simultaneously. We need the ability to maintain variety of character development and increase challenges in over-world battles.

No one ability, skill, class, race or combination should create a single overpowered player. Just like Rock, Paper, Scissors, if one items is cast, there should always be a counter-attack, and there should be a re-counter to that counter-attack. Without equalizing counters, we create META builds that cause the game-play to lack variety as 'everyone' moves to the meta.

We must have consequences in our choices to create a truly unique and interesting stage for game play, 'If I choose this, I cannot choose that' set of circumstances.

Perhaps by ZOS examining the game and documenting the game's path going forward, the realization that a solution to character with 2,000 Champion Points is ridiculous and a new method of progression needs to be established soon to avoid the lack of a character's unique qualities based on the choices made in-game. Perhaps ZOS will realize the necessity for true consequences of choices.

Roboplus

I like the Argonian potion passive, not because it's powerful, but because it's the only passive you can spec into that changes how you approach the game. An attempt was made with Bosmer/Khajiit, but stealth bonuses aren't applicable in group PvE. And unless you're a Nightblade they have limited use elsewhere.

I want other races to have effects that can change how they approach content. Let one race have slightly stronger weapon enchants. What if one race could choose between tank-esque block/bash passives for bow, or else turn it into a Magicka weapon? The Redistributor set might not have a popular 5 piece, but it'd be great as a passive.

It doesn't matter to me if Argonians are the best at anything. I just want racial passives to make an active difference.

munster1404

Roboplus wrote: »

I like the Argonian potion passive, not because it's powerful, but because it's the only passive you can spec into that changes how you approach the game. An attempt was made with Bosmer/Khajiit, but stealth bonuses aren't applicable in group PvE. And unless you're a Nightblade they have limited use elsewhere.

I want other races to have effects that can change how they approach content. Let one race have slightly stronger weapon enchants. What if one race could choose between tank-esque block/bash passives for bow, or else turn it into a Magicka weapon? The Redistributor set might not have a popular 5 piece, but it'd be great as a passive.

It doesn't matter to me if Argonians are the best at anything. I just want racial passives to make an active difference.

Problem is that Argonian sustain is proving to be such a sore point in PvP.

Benemime

Allelujah, +-1 week ago I bought a race change token so I can reroll to high elf (i've been a imperial magsorc for years until i said 'enough' to myself for not getting 10% max magicka, 4% elemental dmg and 9% magicka recovery that HEAVILY buffs our characters and don't allow us to freely chose the race that we PHYSICALLY relate to)

I hate high elves and elves in general, long legs, ears, eyes, i simply hate playing with a elf now and since then I quitted the game (even unsubscribed this month, after paying for a full 3k of crowns on xbox just so I could play with disgustingly OP passives that we don't see in any other MMO!)

I'll be more than happy to be back to my imperial that I'm attached. It won't be lore breaking: High elf culture is still very magicka inclined, like redguards culture are all about swords. But you can't ignore that redguard that never trained physically to be a warrior.

As this user wrote on reddit ESO page:

I wish the racial passives were limited to special features, like the speed of Orcs, resistances, sneak bonus, etc. and all attribute-related bonuses were put into a separate skill tree (like an actual, old-school tree) with 5 tiers or so, and at every tier we can choose a bonus. Sometimes to regen, sometimes to max attribute, etc.

so every race can be everything.

Racial passives are racist. Something that comes inherit to a race is racist. Specially when all of the "caucasian-based" races are mages (you can say that high elves are 'yellow' but elves were based on caucasian races and european/irish lore, you can say that dunmer aren't white but they were chimer with fair skin that got cursed by azura)

Bevik

KrishakPanettier wrote: »

Any future direction that should be a component, and what is lacking in the game, is choice and consequence.

If I choose this skill, then I cannot choose that skill (not just morph skills), talking about real choices that impact a reciprocal ability. So that we all aren't everything. If I choose this Champion Skill, then I cannot choose that Champion Skill. if I choose this class or character with this ability, then I loose that benefit or ability. Perhaps it is too late for such a direction.

The skills don't need to be equalized, or made so that any class and character selection can do any role, but that true consequence of choice AND strategy-selection. I agree that if a player wants to be a Magic khajiit, there should be a roadmap to that end. I am not discouraging that type of 'balance.' Instead, I mean skills, classes, abilities, that are chosen similar to Rock Paper scissors that encourage making different choices to avoid everyone choosing "Rock" for instance.

As we surpass 900 champion points, and top 1,000, the overpower-fullness of our characters by pretty much selecting all buffs in all skill-trees, the PVE content and gap between lower level player characters become increasingly obvious. We should not be able to select all skills simultaneously. We need the ability to maintain variety of character development and increase challenges in over-world battles.

No one ability, skill, class, race or combination should create a single overpowered player. Just like Rock, Paper, Scissors, if one items is cast, there should always be a counter-attack, and there should be a re-counter to that counter-attack. Without equalizing counters, we create META builds that cause the game-play to lack variety as 'everyone' moves to the meta.

We must have consequences in our choices to create a truly unique and interesting stage for game play, 'If I choose this, I cannot choose that' set of circumstances.

Perhaps by ZOS examining the game and documenting the game's path going forward, the realization that a solution to character with 2,000 Champion Points is ridiculous and a new method of progression needs to be established soon to avoid the lack of a character's unique qualities based on the choices made in-game. Perhaps ZOS will realize the necessity for true consequences of choices.

What you want is a proper MMO which won't really attract many new players as it is going to be too hard for them. Especially if they are new to MMOs. Game is dumbed down to that level. To the new players, to the casuals. New players = new subscriptions. I think we are going that way where old players matter less than new ones. They should actually find that fine line between enjoyable yet strategic gameplay.

Oxalias

"When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

Give me a class that effectively helps me potato tank :c I used to play imperial in the past, then I had to change to Argonian, maybe you could give imperials blocking cost reduction or something...

Vapirko

Idk about this racial passive thing, seems like anther step towards complete homogenization.

coletas

Hi Rob... Please, fix the lag and the bugs that make this game unplayable. I dont mind sets, skills, new combat rules, new clothes, contents, quests or whatever. Make this game playable. Im not asking to make a playable game like we, as customers, are expecting, but a least somewhat playable like 2 years ago... you know, with that lag and those annoying bugs that we all were sorting but playing. Now its really unplayable. Every time I enter this game, i get disconnected, affected with permabugs (lag, sprint, bar swaps, perma-on-combat...) and I quit the game and play minesweeper and at least I don't get angry.

I would be great that in case you do not solved anything (like in last years) you would accept your responsability and refund the money to everyone that have asked for that.

Lord_Eomer

If there will be less combat balance changes than clearly ZOS is killing Magicka gameplay!

GIve us Dodgeroll cost magicka, Breakfree cost magicka

Also Magicka Guild and Fighter Guild skills worth comparing, DBS VS Meteor = DBS far better

Bashev

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

If there will be less combat balance changes than clearly ZOS is killing Magicka gameplay!

GIve us Dodgeroll cost magicka, Breakfree cost magicka

Be careful what you wish! There is not so many stamina utility skills. What will you do with your stamina?

Lord_Eomer

Bashev wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

If there will be less combat balance changes than clearly ZOS is killing Magicka gameplay!

GIve us Dodgeroll cost magicka, Breakfree cost magicka

Be careful what you wish! There is not so many stamina utility skills. What will you do with your stamina?

There is nothing wrong,

10k Stam poll never do any help and magicka player most die because of low stam for CC break and without good defence like Dodgeroll

Illuvatarr

Benemime wrote: »

Allelujah, +-1 week ago I bought a race change token so I can reroll to high elf (i've been a imperial magsorc for years until i said 'enough' to myself for not getting 10% max magicka, 4% elemental dmg and 9% magicka recovery that HEAVILY buffs our characters and don't allow us to freely chose the race that we PHYSICALLY relate to)

I hate high elves and elves in general, long legs, ears, eyes, i simply hate playing with a elf now and since then I quitted the game (even unsubscribed this month, after paying for a full 3k of crowns on xbox just so I could play with disgustingly OP passives that we don't see in any other MMO!)

I'll be more than happy to be back to my imperial that I'm attached. It won't be lore breaking: High elf culture is still very magicka inclined, like redguards culture are all about swords. But you can't ignore that redguard that never trained physically to be a warrior.

As this user wrote on reddit ESO page:

I wish the racial passives were limited to special features, like the speed of Orcs, resistances, sneak bonus, etc. and all attribute-related bonuses were put into a separate skill tree (like an actual, old-school tree) with 5 tiers or so, and at every tier we can choose a bonus. Sometimes to regen, sometimes to max attribute, etc.

so every race can be everything.

Racial passives are racist. Something that comes inherit to a race is racist. Specially when all of the "caucasian-based" races are mages (you can say that high elves are 'yellow' but elves were based on caucasian races and european/irish lore, you can say that dunmer aren't white but they were chimer with fair skin that got cursed by azura)

Benemime wrote: »

Allelujah, +-1 week ago I bought a race change token so I can reroll to high elf (i've been a imperial magsorc for years until i said 'enough' to myself for not getting 10% max magicka, 4% elemental dmg and 9% magicka recovery that HEAVILY buffs our characters and don't allow us to freely chose the race that we PHYSICALLY relate to)

I hate high elves and elves in general, long legs, ears, eyes, i simply hate playing with a elf now and since then I quitted the game (even unsubscribed this month, after paying for a full 3k of crowns on xbox just so I could play with disgustingly OP passives that we don't see in any other MMO!)

I'll be more than happy to be back to my imperial that I'm attached. It won't be lore breaking: High elf culture is still very magicka inclined, like redguards culture are all about swords. But you can't ignore that redguard that never trained physically to be a warrior.

As this user wrote on reddit ESO page:

I wish the racial passives were limited to special features, like the speed of Orcs, resistances, sneak bonus, etc. and all attribute-related bonuses were put into a separate skill tree (like an actual, old-school tree) with 5 tiers or so, and at every tier we can choose a bonus. Sometimes to regen, sometimes to max attribute, etc.

so every race can be everything.

Racial passives are racist. Something that comes inherit to a race is racist. Specially when all of the "caucasian-based" races are mages (you can say that high elves are 'yellow' but elves were based on caucasian races and european/irish lore, you can say that dunmer aren't white but they were chimer with fair skin that got cursed by azura)

Bringing in the idea of racism in this game as it applies to the real world is intellectually dishonest and lazy.

I could field an argument to apply some Darwinian logic to your statements to the real world (with empirical evidence from Harvard and other major universities corroborating its claims) but it might ruffle the feathers of the snowflake crowd.

To cite a brief example, Ashkenazi Jews comprise less than 1 percent of the World population but have managed to win over 25 percent of Nobel Prizes. Nature and nurture play a role here no doubt. That fact notwithstanding, intelligent humans tend to create more intelligent humans and they create environments for their offspring to become educated so that skews the nurture argument to a large degree in terms of its independent variable status impacting life outcomes. However, as a group they tend to score a full standard deviation higher on IQ tests and other tests measuring mental abilities. This phenomenon causes gross over representation in the tail of a normal distribution for IQ scores as compared to the general population (a mass representation of members with Genius level intelligence and much more representation by their group in intellectually rigorous fields such as law/medicine/academia as opposed to other groups). The same might be said for High Elves and their affinity for magic.

jcm2606

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

If there will be less combat balance changes than clearly ZOS is killing Magicka gameplay!

GIve us Dodgeroll cost magicka, Breakfree cost magicka

Also Magicka Guild and Fighter Guild skills worth comparing, DBS VS Meteor = DBS far better

So long as they only add ways to roll and break free with magicka, instead of making them cost magicka, I'm fine with this.

makavelliiretro

Well kudos to y'all at ZOS y'all managed to steal 15$ from me this month because this is not the game I have payed for originally. Y'all keep changing the rules of the game and making it harder for my favorite class. Everybody whines till they get what they want. What happened to buying a game and continuing to play "that" game. I could understand fixing a glitch or a bug but changing skills or making it to where my lvl 8 templar can out damage a cp260 templar is ridiculous. You are supposed to start off weak and work hard to get stronger. Well I'm cancelling eso plus and y'all will be lucky if I log on just to give my gold away to my friends. I should of stuck to the real rpg makers that know what they are doing...SQUARE ENIX. "PEACE"

Tommy_The_Gun

I noticed a certain regularity / trend when it comes to patches so I would not be surprised if "new approach" is the old approach with different name slapped on it:

ZOS nerfs stuff to take away our progression / power in the name of balance and adds more CP cap to have a feeling that we actually gain power (when in reality our characters lose their power). This was mostly noticeable in Morrowind update when they nerfed a lot of CP & sustain. But it also happened in the past. Hybrids are not a "thing" any longer, Sap tanks are pretty much dead (the most fun I had in a game as a NB tank) etc.

They do this just so you will grind new gear and adapt indefinitely (especially if you play only one character). This kinda contradicts the whole idea of a mmo character progression.

Sorry zenimax that I feel that way but your actions when it comes to game balance & nerfs simply do not allow me to think otherwise. I dare you - prove me wrong in the next Update...

Atrak

If you change racial passives and your charging us for race changes, isn't that a little on the nose? I do hope that you give each char a free race change after something this significant.

Rungar

i think its a great new direction!

firedrgn

I used to see the glass as half full all the time. Now I wish i could say that the glass is neither half full or half empty.

Since morrowind the game has been , the glass is actually half empty.

One of the greatest lesson i have learned in business was. The pendelum does not have to swing the whole way.

Masel

To all the negativity here: changes like last patch won't go through unfiltered anymore.

We see what is going to happen, give feedback and since we get to see stuff before it is even coded, we can have an impact before actual decisions are made.

We already had a few rounds of feedback and alterations based on it to make changes as good as possible for the health of the game.

So, since last months there's another instance that combat changes will go through, and we hope that will make the impact you guys are hoping for And prevent sweeping changes that are uncalled for, since it saves effort on ZoS and frustration on the playerbase.

Savos_Saren

I'd like to see a few lore-friendly "balance options" for each race that would allow players to develop their characters in various roles. It could be in the form of racial morphs. For instance:

A Khajiit character morph the racial passage, Carnage, to either:

a.) weapon crit
or
b.) spell crit

Or, perhaps, a Nord could morph the racial passive, Resist Frost, to either:

a.) resist frost
or
b.) increase frost damage by 7%