Solving AotP

Soul_Demon

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lowering group caps isnt going to prevent zerging. There's the joke about "DC never zergs! Those are all 4-man groups. All 20 of them."

All it takes to get enough players in one place to tank the server is to have an important objective, like a heavily contested keep, a dethrone, an Emperorship, or a scroll take.

As you well know Veranis, those are not just jokes, they have multiple video's in an unnamed storage area showing 50-80 AD and DC being wiped repeatedly for in some cases hours of 'fun to watch' unpublished video footage. All of it over the last year.....That is exactly what makes this thread so very much fun. The hate pushed by most of the time those in the same videos being wiped in groups of the same proportions they demonize here now. Of course they all think no one has them on video doing it- shhh....don't tell them its out there being circulated to a very exclusive crowd. It would destroy the laughs many are getting from the hate being thrown at AP right now. And I can tell you watching those players attempt to be statesman for the games sake and its health or outright claim superiority for style is just gold man...don't ruin it for us.

Joy_Division

Thoragaal wrote: »

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Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

I did. The problem is successful guilds that can accomplish map control with less than 20 is that it does not prompt opponents to spread out. Rather it prompts guilds such as yours to stack together because it is unwilling to git gud.

DisgracefulMind

Thoragaal wrote: »

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DisgracefulMind wrote: »

To make it clear, group caps should be pushed down to 12, and this nonsense needs to stop. The game may have been advertised for "big and epic" battles, but, let's be real, the servers can't handle it. We all know this. If you've played ESO, you know this.

Even if you had a group cap of 12 people between different groups would still be able to communicate. Even if you removed groups entierly there's still the zone chat, guild chat, and various types of voice-coms.
And yeah, I know the game can't handle it. Personally I don't even play during the peak hours because of lag-fests.

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DisgracefulMind wrote: »

They don't need a larger group, they need to learn how to play at least somewhat. I understand this is a game, and we're all here to have fun, but there's some extremities, and I'd say Army of the Pact is an unnecessary extremity. No one needs that amount of people to play, no one.

If the enemy will bring X-amount of people to take your keep, how many defenders would you put there?
You can't answer without knowing how many people the enemy has. Same goes for the attacker. The attacker will bring as many as he/she think is needed. Unless it's an organically formed zerg group and you just have to blame our human biology for that.

No, I don't think anyone ever said lowering group caps would stop the problem, but it would definitely discourage at least a good chunk of people.

Again, there is a difference in someone intentionally putting together 50+ people and people coming to defend a keep from a raid. No one needs 2+ raids to do anything in this game.

Red_Nine

Elong wrote: »

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Red_Nine wrote: »

You know what your actions cause.

My Actions? Dude, I log in, I play the game like everyone else. Get over yourself if you think there's some kind of conspiracy by other players to ruin your experience.

Red_Nine

barshemm wrote: »

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Red_Nine wrote: »

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Actually you are right. Prime time those are much better ways to enjoy the game. However the rest of the day in Vivec is the most fun. It's just once my skills stop working and I can't bar swap that it's not as much fun as those other things. I wonder what contributes to causing that lag?

Poor game/server design? Come on, as long as we're blaming each other, we're not blaming ZOS. They put out a large-scale PvP product. It's literally what Cyrodiil is supposed to be. If there's lag when that happens, blaming other players is folly.

pzschrek

I joined their group once when I was tiering my EP. They’re nice people actually, no toxicity, and it seems like a fun environment if you’re new to pvp and just want to win/get transmute crystals/farm spell strat. It fondly reminds me of my first pvp pug Zerg guild that got me into pvp, except with way more people.

Nobody’s going to learn much, but with a few exceptions I don’t think that’s what most are there for.

A little too much “good job” ass-slapping when we beat another faction with a 5 to 1 advantage, but that’s to be expected.

Of course the bad side is it’s true they’ve ruined prime time for anyone else. I just play elsewhere now. I wouldn’t mind quite as much if the disconnects affected the megazerg the way it did everyone else.

But hey, Red_Nine is having fun, so the rest of you all can go *** yourselves 😆

Edit: all this situation does make me think, if there were more welcoming “lfg” pugherder guilds on all factions they wouldn’t just have to stack on the one at the same time. To some extent it’s a symptom of the fact that most of those are long dead.

Ranger209

Red_Nine wrote: »

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barshemm wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Actually you are right. Prime time those are much better ways to enjoy the game. However the rest of the day in Vivec is the most fun. It's just once my skills stop working and I can't bar swap that it's not as much fun as those other things. I wonder what contributes to causing that lag?

Poor game/server design? Come on, as long as we're blaming each other, we're not blaming ZOS. They put out a large-scale PvP product. It's literally what Cyrodiil is supposed to be. If there's lag when that happens, blaming other players is folly.

We all know there is lag when people get too congested, I know, you know, ZOS knows. The problem is that in spite of this knowledge people push the server beyond its limits with this knowledge in hand degrading gameplay for everyone. Yes it is up to ZOS to do what they can to fix it, but in the mean time, while there are issues known far and wide, it is up to the player base to do what it can to not push it over its limits.

Things happen, dethrones, scroll runs, bad luck and timing, etc. where a bunch of people all wind up in the same place at the same time, it happens. Willfully, intentionally running 3 raids together from one objective to the next for hours on end is not healthy for the server or the player base. Splitting forces and running 3 different objectives simultaneously is something else entirely, but bringing them all together to steamroll the map and cripple the server is just not a good idea, its harmful to the game at this point in time. Do I think it is your intent to cripple the server? No, but that is the reality of what is happening.

frozywozy

Red_Nine wrote: »

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barshemm wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Actually you are right. Prime time those are much better ways to enjoy the game. However the rest of the day in Vivec is the most fun. It's just once my skills stop working and I can't bar swap that it's not as much fun as those other things. I wonder what contributes to causing that lag?

Poor game/server design? Come on, as long as we're blaming each other, we're not blaming ZOS. They put out a large-scale PvP product. It's literally what Cyrodiil is supposed to be. If there's lag when that happens, blaming other players is folly.

Hexquisite

The groups I run in now try to avoid going to the side of the map that AP is on, as many will disconnect as soon as they get near the keep/outtpost AP is at. This has lead to a lot of zone infighting over why people are taking odd things, when they should be defending /taking XX.

Over this past week I have watched 4 more of my friends quit pvping. Every night groups I am in log off 1 -2 hours earlier than usual. It's like pulling teeth to get people to pvp. People are just really disheartened.

Ironically I now run with 12-16 mans, that are now considered small scale. And I wonder about all those people who sent us nasty zerger tells when I had the audacity to have 6 people in my group.

We are always looking for a good fight, and hate to PVEdoor, we always hope that maybe one raid decides to defend and we get a great fight that will leave us satisfied even if we don't come out on top. I am losing faith that this can happen anymore.

Ralamil

Red_Nine wrote: »

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barshemm wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Actually you are right. Prime time those are much better ways to enjoy the game. However the rest of the day in Vivec is the most fun. It's just once my skills stop working and I can't bar swap that it's not as much fun as those other things. I wonder what contributes to causing that lag?

Poor game/server design? Come on, as long as we're blaming each other, we're not blaming ZOS. They put out a large-scale PvP product. It's literally what Cyrodiil is supposed to be. If there's lag when that happens, blaming other players is folly.

Cute attempt at trying to deflect all personal responsibility from everyone. Can no longer defend AotP's actions and so have to desperately try to fully shift fault back over to ZOS.

Giving you a 5/7; nice, but could troll better.

GlorphNoldorin

idk wrote: »

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Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

It might sound statistically inaccurate but it in fact happened.

Did I say it never happens? No.

You said it is usually the case and that is what is incorrect. I doubt any server is that consistent.

Its a daily thing, you can just about set a watch by it, (Vivec PC/NA) If it is not daily it is definitely most days in the week

Ruckly

I discussed in zone chat(in my cancerous zone general way ) how AotP was going to use lag as a shank on the first day of the campaign. If DC strings together a bunch of wins AP pulls out the lag shank. If DC has an EP scroll AP pulls out the lag shank. This is what led to this thread to see if anyone has a solution. The answers have been from the game is advertised to lag to give people who stack 100 people an indefensible lag shield to whiney people deal with it to whatever else. In my zone general cancerous sort of way when something arrises where a emperor has to be deposed I try to direct it in such a way to cause as little lag as possible to increase success. The guilds in my faction are fully autonomous I can only advise. Typically I think they agree that tanking the server into unplayability makes the game pointless. Some times it can't be avoided but even then siegeing opposite sides of a wall to split siege then postern and spraying the back flag while other faction goes through front is usually doable. I don't think DC has used tanking the server as a weapon to achieve success. AD has stacked big numbers at nikel outpost however after that battle ash is usually defensible without overwhelming lag. The only real bad actor is AotP and what they are doing is pointless. They are effectively PvDing during prime-time when the population is most even by generating unplayable amounts of lag at a specific location.

Anyways everyone in DC knows AotP uses lag as a shank. It is probably against the ToS to do so since it exploits intentionally a game breaking mechanic but I'm not going to go there I'll leave it to the ethical standards of the players. My thread has been called whiney behold it is 162+ posts long that is a lot of whiney people. I don't believe certain actors in EP have ethical standards.

TLDR version:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrACUKXzdPc[/media]

barshemm

Red_Nine wrote: »

Poor game/server design? Come on, as long as we're blaming each other, we're not blaming ZOS. They put out a large-scale PvP product. It's literally what Cyrodiil is supposed to be. If there's lag when that happens, blaming other players is folly.

And we all know it's broken. We've all known it for years and have accepted we have to deal with it being broken is events like last emp keeps. However, up until now no one has really gone out of their way to try and abuse those mechanics to screw up the server at the time that the population is the largest just for laughs. GG on being the first to play it like that.

Thoragaal

Ruckly wrote: »

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Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

"[...]I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens[...]"
Yeah. I don't even log on during prime time. I'm from PC/EU/Vivec and we have nothing but organically formed zergs on at that time. AD is always being pushed back to their gates and then they go for the closest object. This creates insane lag, especially if DC/EP doesn't wanna let go of our keeps. It's rarely more than 2 things being UA at the same time (one of AD's homekeeps and Bleakers usually). I'm left with the choice of going with the zerg, try to take a keep solo or simply not log on (unless I just wanna take up space being afk).

I used to create groups, but, it comes with more headaches than I wanna have to deal with. For example, having 16 people in the group, thinking those other 15 are following you only to realize that half the group is doing something else (afk, chasing a nb, following the wrong group, joining a closeby keep that's UA, someone doesn't understand english).
It could be solved by having a guild that can enforce some guidelines and rules on people, with consequences if they're not being followed. But I also know how much time and dedication it takes to make a successful guild (as it should). I have the option to do something about it, but I chose not to. For me to then put the blame on the results, for the choice I'm making, just isn't right.

Ruckly

Thoragaal wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Thoragaal

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

I did. The problem is successful guilds that can accomplish map control with less than 20 is that it does not prompt opponents to spread out. Rather it prompts guilds such as yours to stack together because it is unwilling to git gud.

You can take that perspective if you want to, but it's not intellectually honest of you.
I said "[...]or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups."
Less than 20 people isn't a similar guild.
If you had this guild, spreading out your groups, means you'd have 3 groups out of less than 20 people. 6 people in each group. You mean to tell me that AotP comes charging with 3 full groups, 72 players, to kill 6 of your guys.
It sounds to me like it's enough for one person to put a keep in combat for them to get baited, while the rest of you can do what ever you like.
Somehow I don't believe you actually put much effort into doing something about it. If you in fact even tried.
I have never once stated or said I'm in AotP. In fact I have on several occasions through this thread said I'm not even on NA. But to somehow try and tie together my ideas to a group (AotP) is completely irrelevent to the subject; you're strawmanning. So once again, you're not being very honest about this. Making it personal because I'm somehow "unwilling to git gud", when I'm not even on the server... yeah.

It's clear that you're not here to actually discuss and talk about ideas on how to solve it. You're not even interested in it. You just wanna QQ, it's ok, people need to ventilate their frustrations sometimes. But for that reason I'm done.

Thoragaal

Ruckly wrote: »

show previous quotes

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Yes. Exactly like that. The referee in that game is the one making the call. But even if it is unintentional it's still a handball, because it affects the opposing team, even if it potentially didn't bring Croatia any direct advantages. The distinction the referee needs to make is if it's intentional (yellow, possibly red card), or unintentional (free kick, possibly yellow card).
Just like Maradona in -86 scored a goal by punching the ball. He should've been given a red card, because it was intentional.
But it's not the punishment that's the interesting thing, it's the idea behind it; why we do make these distinctions. You could theoretically be throwing red cards all around you, as a referee, to everything that happens, but it wouldn't be a very fun game. And it definitely wouldn't be very fair (ie AotP cause the lag intentionally) if everything was being judged as equally bad.

Reverb

zyk wrote: »

More than the performance and gameplay issues, it is the culture of the game that bothers me the most on PC/NA/Vivec.

I feel like ZOS is slowly turning Cyrodiil into a PVE zone. I feel like most players in Cyro these days actually enjoy zerging barely or not at all defended keeps. I say this because there is an endless cycle of PVE at objectives with little or, usually, no PVP. I'll watch raids on my own faction choose to pvdoor keeps and resources instead of trying to defend them.

ZOS needs to stop making Cyrodiil attractive to ESO PVE players who fundamentally don't enjoy PVP and instead focus on making Cyrodiil attractive to PVP players from the greater PVP gaming community.

IMO, this is the mindset of AOTP players. They're akin to PVE dolmen or world boss raids. It's just brainless pew pew.

This sums it up quite well

Rylana

They see me zergin they hatin

Ruckly

Thoragaal wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Yes. Exactly like that. The referee in that game is the one making the call. But even if it is unintentional it's still a handball, because it affects the opposing team, even if it potentially didn't bring Croatia any direct advantages. The distinction the referee needs to make is if it's intentional (yellow, possibly red card), or unintentional (free kick, possibly yellow card).
Just like Maradona in -86 scored a goal by punching the ball. He should've been given a red card, because it was intentional.
But it's not the punishment that's the interesting thing, it's the idea behind it; why we do make these distinctions. You could theoretically be throwing red cards all around you, as a referee, to everything that happens, but it wouldn't be a very fun game. And it definitely wouldn't be very fair (ie AotP cause the lag intentionally) if everything was being judged as equally bad.

The point of that is the intent. A person can flail their arms in all directions with no intention of hitting the ball in the crease. It's going to called a handball because that is gaming the system. Like intentionally placing 80 people at some point generating excess lag is gaming the system. Thus France was awarded a penalty shot and scored a goal.

Ruckly

Off topic but to be more precise about that world cup call the players hand was an accessory in the removal of the ball from play by the players leg which thus altered the course of play. Had it not gone off his leg the call might have been different maybe. It would have been difficult to call a handball in the world cup because nobody wants to see a game won or lost by a handball penalty kick. One camera angle shows if it didn't go off his leg it would have gone in the net which is even worse. So really there is no way the referee could not have called it a handball. The president of Russia was present in the stadium along with many French fans.

Thoragaal

Ruckly wrote: »

show previous quotes

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Yes. Exactly like that. The referee in that game is the one making the call. But even if it is unintentional it's still a handball, because it affects the opposing team, even if it potentially didn't bring Croatia any direct advantages. The distinction the referee needs to make is if it's intentional (yellow, possibly red card), or unintentional (free kick, possibly yellow card).
Just like Maradona in -86 scored a goal by punching the ball. He should've been given a red card, because it was intentional.
But it's not the punishment that's the interesting thing, it's the idea behind it; why we do make these distinctions. You could theoretically be throwing red cards all around you, as a referee, to everything that happens, but it wouldn't be a very fun game. And it definitely wouldn't be very fair (ie AotP cause the lag intentionally) if everything was being judged as equally bad.

The point of that is the intent. A person can flail their arms in all directions with no intention of hitting the ball in the crease. It's going to called a handball because that is gaming the system. Like intentionally placing 80 people at some point generating excess lag is gaming the system. Thus France was awarded a penalty shot and scored a goal.

I agree. We're both on the same page there. But they are being judged differently depending on intent.
I don't believe for a second that AotP has the sole intent of causing the lag, as if their exclusive goal to make it a terrible experience for everyone, but the lag is rather a side effect of their intentions to gain ground/the keeps.
Because how do you, as an outsider, make that distinction?
If you don't care about the distinction, then we can call Everything being intentional. And thus every handball is a red card. Every death is murder.
A confession is usually very solid proof. Previous behavior too. But at this point you don't know.

Elong

Thoragaal wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Yes. Exactly like that. The referee in that game is the one making the call. But even if it is unintentional it's still a handball, because it affects the opposing team, even if it potentially didn't bring Croatia any direct advantages. The distinction the referee needs to make is if it's intentional (yellow, possibly red card), or unintentional (free kick, possibly yellow card).
Just like Maradona in -86 scored a goal by punching the ball. He should've been given a red card, because it was intentional.
But it's not the punishment that's the interesting thing, it's the idea behind it; why we do make these distinctions. You could theoretically be throwing red cards all around you, as a referee, to everything that happens, but it wouldn't be a very fun game. And it definitely wouldn't be very fair (ie AotP cause the lag intentionally) if everything was being judged as equally bad.

The point of that is the intent. A person can flail their arms in all directions with no intention of hitting the ball in the crease. It's going to called a handball because that is gaming the system. Like intentionally placing 80 people at some point generating excess lag is gaming the system. Thus France was awarded a penalty shot and scored a goal.

I agree. We're both on the same page there. But they are being judged differently depending on intent.
I don't believe for a second that AotP has the sole intent of causing the lag, as if their exclusive goal to make it a terrible experience for everyone, but the lag is rather a side effect of their intentions to gain ground/the keeps.
Because how do you, as an outsider, make that distinction?
If you don't care about the distinction, then we can call Everything being intentional. And thus every handball is a red card. Every death is murder.
A confession is usually very solid proof. Previous behavior too. But at this point you don't know.

The GM of AotP has whispered me that he enjoys causing all the lag. So yes, that is one of their goals.

Ranger209

Thoragaal wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Yes. Exactly like that. The referee in that game is the one making the call. But even if it is unintentional it's still a handball, because it affects the opposing team, even if it potentially didn't bring Croatia any direct advantages. The distinction the referee needs to make is if it's intentional (yellow, possibly red card), or unintentional (free kick, possibly yellow card).
Just like Maradona in -86 scored a goal by punching the ball. He should've been given a red card, because it was intentional.
But it's not the punishment that's the interesting thing, it's the idea behind it; why we do make these distinctions. You could theoretically be throwing red cards all around you, as a referee, to everything that happens, but it wouldn't be a very fun game. And it definitely wouldn't be very fair (ie AotP cause the lag intentionally) if everything was being judged as equally bad.

The point of that is the intent. A person can flail their arms in all directions with no intention of hitting the ball in the crease. It's going to called a handball because that is gaming the system. Like intentionally placing 80 people at some point generating excess lag is gaming the system. Thus France was awarded a penalty shot and scored a goal.

I agree. We're both on the same page there. But they are being judged differently depending on intent.
I don't believe for a second that AotP has the sole intent of causing the lag, as if their exclusive goal to make it a terrible experience for everyone, but the lag is rather a side effect of their intentions to gain ground/the keeps.
Because how do you, as an outsider, make that distinction?
If you don't care about the distinction, then we can call Everything being intentional. And thus every handball is a red card. Every death is murder.
A confession is usually very solid proof. Previous behavior too. But at this point you don't know.

I personally don't care about the distinction. Either they are doing it (intentionally) or (they just don't care) that what they are doing degrades peoples experience while in Cyrodiil. Do they care that I would view what they are doing with extreme disdain (intentional) or extraordinary disdain (they just dont care). Does that distinction matter to anyone? I doubt it. What matters is that it takes away from the experience in Cyrodiil. There are already enough issues without people doing things of this nature. The server is what it is at this point in time and that is the framework that we have to play the game within. Knowing this, which everyone does, and playing this way casts a negative on everyone's enjoyment of Cyrodiil. Don't get lost in the semantics of intentional or unintentional, it really doesn't matter.

Ruckly

Thoragaal wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

Some of us aren't able to enjoy because certain players willingly stack 80 deep in the same place and cause lag. You know what your actions cause. I'm not angry about it, just disappointed. There are other options to pvp, and I take those avenues a lot more lately, because of the selfishness of some of the playerbase.
Before you say "but the game is built for large battles etc", it might have been, but it can't do it anymore, it can't handle that many people, and they can't fix it, or won't fix it. We as players have to take a small amount of ownership if we love and value this game.

frozywozy wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Red_Nine wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

I don't get what the big deal is. AotP is just the natural response of a "leader" who's so impotent that his only means of being effective is stacking absolutely as many players on screen as he can and cause it to lag to hell. It's easy to be more effective when your enemies skills aren't firing and you have the numbers.

No but really, I never want to hear how other factions stack worse than EP ever again. xD

Maybe you'd have more fun in Battlegrounds or dueling then. Or maybe Shor is more your speed. Don't let a game make you so angry. It's not healthy. Surely you realize that complaining in the forums about it won't change anything. Let go, man, life is too short. A game is supposed to be fun. If you're not able to enjoy it, what's the point?

I do have fun in pvp. I can have fun and still generally think your guild is a cancer that isn't healthy to the game that's basically skating by in terms of performance by exploiting the poor server infrastructure.

Besides, if you were concerned about anyone's fun but your own, you'd let us use our skills every once in a while. Now kindly take your faux concern elsewhere. Maybe brush up on your smallman (1 raid or less, I guess) gameplay.

It's been said before that they enjoy running with large numbers. Even if they could get better and be successful with 12, they would still run with more because they like big raids. This being said, that would be fine, IF and only if the servers could handle it which is not the case. Glad they have been doing efforts to spread their raids in different directions but it should not be a "once in a while thing". it should be a 95% of the time kind of thing.

Some people are able to handle themselves pretty good in various scenarios, others not so well. The personal skill and ability to get better also differs from person to person.
I know some people that's been doing Cyrodiil for 3-4 years and still don't know how to break free from a CC, because they don't have the reaction time for it. Others don't have the situational awareness to avoid AoE being poured on them. Some people can't find their own heal button before it's too late.
While others can easily kill 3 opponents alone.
For many people being in a large groups, even if it is causing lag, is their only way to enjoy Cyrodiil. It's a way to even the odds in their favour. Put 20 skilled players against 30 ppl that can't break free/get out of AoE/can't heal themselves (or others) and those other 20 (or even less) will wreck them apart by sheer personal skill.
But to make it clear, you don't want to make it impossible for those others to enjoy their game? Because not everyone is able to learn to the same capacity, or even as fast, as someone else.

Gonna stop you right there.

I'm the last person to point fingers at players for playing the game "wrong" or "irresponsibly," mostly because all of us are guilty of doing things at times that we know aren't the best for the game or the community. It happens from time to time for various circumstances and reasons. That being said:

All of us sucked at one point. The only way not to suck is to learn from mistakes, losses, and take off the proverbial training wheels and try to compete is situations beyond your skill level. It's humbling, it's frustrating, but it's a necessary step where there is no cutting corners. You don't need super fast twitch reactions or omniscience to enjoy Cyrodiil on your own. Rather, you need to the willingness to get kicked in the butt enough times and learn from it.

I get the appeal of playing in raid groups. It can be a lot of fun to have a legit impact on the map, whereas one person usually is just overwhelmed and zerged down. But when you state that's the "only way to enjoy Cyrodiil," that's way too exclusive and too narrow. It's A way, not the ONLY way. To have the perspective of the "only" way, that sounds like giving up on any other ways to play.

You as a player and your guild will be better off and find the game a lot more enjoyable under multiple circumstance if it is the occasional circumstance that prompts a unhealthy amount of players in a single spot at cyrodiil rather than a modus operandi.

You can learn from mutliple different approaches. Personally I observe first and foremost.
In a large scale situation I would therefor observe how the enemy, as a group, behave, and how my group, as the attacker, behave and do it vice versa (when we're defending). Point being that not everyone approaches a problem similarily.

I said "...impossible for those others to enjoy their game?". It was an intentional question.
Because, like I said, that's how I am as a person and also as a player. I observe, carefully first hand, before getting into anything. I enjoy large scale combat, I get more information with a group where I know there are healers or a tank that can take a beating and won't run away if he/she is being attacked.
This is ofc 1-2 years ago when I first got into Cyrodiil. This is no longer the case. But that's how and where I learned about Cyrodiil. I know I can handle myself with and without a group now. I probably pay more attention to enemy movement than someone that's mostly playing small scale/solo, but the small scale/solo player is probably paying more attention to his closest friends or their own resources, while I go /shout to try and save as many attackers as much as possible when being flanked.

Point being that not everyone learns the same way and people have different approaches to get by an obstacle. Grouping up is one of them, hence why my question

Also, there is a max capacity of siege weapons, that means beyond a certain point of attackers they lose effeciency by not spreading out. You can use this to your advantage and take keeps more effeciently, if you had a more organized group at your own disposal. If you were to create something similar and make tactical decissions to spread out on keeps, the enemy will be forced to spread out too or they will start losing an insane amount of points.

Things are being made too complicated here.

Most of the people here aren't saying that you are ruining people's enjoyment for making groups bigger than 4 (although undoubtedly some exist). People can group, have fun, learn, and have an impact on the map. It's fine. It's cool. It's part of the game.

Rather, the issue arises when stacking 50+ is seen as a matter of routine and as a standard operating procedure.

No, I don't want to make it impossible for other people to enjoy their game. That's why I generally don't accuse people of playing "wrong" or irresponsibly. Group up, totally fine with that. And I recognize there are instances where too many people are going to be in one spot and often it's not intentional. It happens. It's fine. all I am saying is that stacking 50+ should not become habit and seen as a tactic to win. Because at that point there is zero learning going on at all as the only lesson to be drawn when 3/4 the population is stacked at a single objective is that ZOS's servers can't handle it.

Individuals are complicated. We should never forget that it's a real person behind the screen

These people in AotP seem to have been gathered relatively fast. That shows that it's a very low standard for joining. With a low standard, and numbers quickly rising, would indicate that the majority of players aren't very experienced, unless every single one of them intentionally wanna break the server by causing lag, but that's highly improbable. With the majority being relatively inexperienced players, then what I've said before makes sense, no?

I can guarantee you that some of these players from AotP see this solution from the GM as the greatest thing done since the invention of ice cream, because now they feel like they can participate properly for once. Even if they only run around doing light attacks and die due to standing in AoE.

It's fine if you accuse the leaders of causing the lag, if said leader orders several full groups to one location with the intention to cause lag), but you need some solid proof before making such accusations. But don't blame the little guy, that's a part of the guild, that's just following the leader.

I know. The lag sucks. But the lag is there with or without organised groups due to how players organically form into zergs when they can't handle themselves, which is the case when they are inexperienced. The only solution can come from ZOS or that you make a similar guild where you take on the leader role and spread out your groups.
The lag has been there for as long as I can remember and nothing's been done by ZOS. My advice is really that you make your own guild and force the opponents to spread out

AotP puts a bunch of people in one place and it creates lag and they know it creates lag and the placing of people is intentional. Prior to AotP there was lag but not as consistent and it didn't shut down prime-time. Now I don't even play the game anymore other than to lvl my mounts in the hope that some time in the future people with more sound reasoning will organize what goes on in cyrodill. If I have 4 hours of leisure time I'm not going to spend 2 hours in load screens or bar lock or skills taking 10 seconds to cast or siege being busy and being pushed back to the gate so there is nowhere else to go(DC corner keep is in the path of AotP lag if it was brindle I imagine when the onslaught comes people would go to brindle to TDM until they(AotP) are done and satisfied).

"AotP puts a bunch of people in one place[...]"
You know the justice system makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder. It's the intent that makes the difference. The result is the same, but there's a difference if it's planned out ahead or not.
For example: Attempting a robbery which results in someone getting killed can be ruled in two different ways. If you can prove that the intention was to kill said person then it's ruled as murder. If you lack proof of the death being planned out ahead then it's manslaughter. The idea behind it branches out into different directions even further. But the intention matters a lot in the way we judge and rule and the distinction is there for good reasons. I'm talking about why the fundamental idea behind these distinctions matter and how it's used on a daily basis.

And in the world cup final Croatia was called for handball when most people disagreed. The intent couldn't be determined the players hands covered way to much space. It looked like a natural motion maybe but the space covered in the interval of time generated a screen.

Yes. Exactly like that. The referee in that game is the one making the call. But even if it is unintentional it's still a handball, because it affects the opposing team, even if it potentially didn't bring Croatia any direct advantages. The distinction the referee needs to make is if it's intentional (yellow, possibly red card), or unintentional (free kick, possibly yellow card).
Just like Maradona in -86 scored a goal by punching the ball. He should've been given a red card, because it was intentional.
But it's not the punishment that's the interesting thing, it's the idea behind it; why we do make these distinctions. You could theoretically be throwing red cards all around you, as a referee, to everything that happens, but it wouldn't be a very fun game. And it definitely wouldn't be very fair (ie AotP cause the lag intentionally) if everything was being judged as equally bad.

The point of that is the intent. A person can flail their arms in all directions with no intention of hitting the ball in the crease. It's going to called a handball because that is gaming the system. Like intentionally placing 80 people at some point generating excess lag is gaming the system. Thus France was awarded a penalty shot and scored a goal.

I agree. We're both on the same page there. But they are being judged differently depending on intent.
I don't believe for a second that AotP has the sole intent of causing the lag, as if their exclusive goal to make it a terrible experience for everyone, but the lag is rather a side effect of their intentions to gain ground/the keeps.
Because how do you, as an outsider, make that distinction?
If you don't care about the distinction, then we can call Everything being intentional. And thus every handball is a red card. Every death is murder.
A confession is usually very solid proof. Previous behavior too. But at this point you don't know.

If AotP has the sole intent of stacking 100 people in one place without any intent of creating lag behold it creates lag. They know it creates lag. Thus knowing it creates lag they do it anyways. So say they get the "manslaughter verdict". I wouldn't stop there because it would have to be further determined whether or not they are sane. The definition of criminal insanity is not knowing the difference between right and wrong in what you do. Thus if we were to use your scenario they would be found criminally insane.

Theignson

[/quote=]
If AotP has the sole intent of stacking 100 people in one place without any intent of creating lag behold it creates lag. They know it creates lag. Thus knowing it creates lag they do it anyways. So say they get the "manslaughter verdict". I wouldn't stop there because it would have to be further determined whether or not they are sane. The definition of criminal insanity is not knowing the difference between right and wrong in what you do. Thus if we were to use your scenario they would be found criminally insane.[/quote]

Enough of this charade and hypocrisy. Last night in Vivec literally 100 AD zerged EP to get their scroll. I have never seen so many people from one faction at once. It was of course a lag fest. AD frequently fields 80 people zergs. DC almost never hits those numbers, true, but they get 60 on the field.

EP isn't the only faction doing this.

Karm1cOne

Theignson wrote: »

If AotP has the sole intent of stacking 100 people in one place without any intent of creating lag behold it creates lag. They know it creates lag. Thus knowing it creates lag they do it anyways. So say they get the "manslaughter verdict". I wouldn't stop there because it would have to be further determined whether or not they are sane. The definition of criminal insanity is not knowing the difference between right and wrong in what you do. Thus if we were to use your scenario they would be found criminally insane.[/quote]

Enough of this charade and hypocrisy. Last night in Vivec literally 100 AD zerged EP to get their scroll. I have never seen so many people from one faction at once. It was of course a lag fest. AD frequently fields 80 people zergs. DC almost never hits those numbers, true, but they get 60 on the field.

EP isn't the only faction doing this.





[/quote]

The difference, as most have stated here, is intent. 100 AD showed up for a scroll capture, but that was different groups at a strategic point. Every scroll take requires a faction stack these days. Aotp stacks 80 for every objective.

evivnada

Wow everyone needs to get off their high horse with the talk of just one guild ruining pvp. Last night team green had the most people I've ever seen taking EPs tri keeps, then both scrolls. I wasnt able to use skills or mount for almost 30 minutes the lag was so bad

Elong

evivnada wrote: »

Wow everyone needs to get off their high horse with the talk of just one guild ruining pvp. Last night team green had the most people I've ever seen taking EPs tri keeps, then both scrolls. I wasnt able to use skills or mount for almost 30 minutes the lag was so bad

I believe they call it karma.

evivnada

AotP hasn't been on in days. Sounds like yall were just butthurt, and had to use the entire server to take our scrolls from pugs.
I bow to your superior tactics.